Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:43 PM

"Don't say anything stupid now, Don."

Hey, c'mon, man! That's a helluva burden to lay on a guy!

####

One of the first books of folk songs I ever bought back in 1952 was Best Loved American Folk Songs (Folk Song U. S. A.), by John and Alan Lomax, copyright 1947, third edition. One of the songs in it was "Amazing Grace." It wasn't until some years later that I actually heard the song sung. I can't remember by who, but it was before Judy Collins' recorded it sometime in the early 1970s. Her rendition of it seem to be the first domino to be tipped over, because you suddenly started hearing it everywhere. A Scottish pipe band recorded it, then another, and another. It began being played during ceremonies following the death of national leaders, major personalities, police officers killed in the line of duty. . . .

In 1990, Bill Moyers did a PBS special on "Amazing Grace" (CLICKY; available on DVD), and that's where I heard about John Newton and how the song came about.

"Amazing Grace," usually played by a pipe band, has become a standard piece of ceremonial music commemorating almost any event in which sadness or grief may be a component.

Someone dies, a pipe band plays "Amazing Grace."

The kid next door's pet hamster dies, and as he's burying it in a shoebox out in the back yard, a pipe band marches in and plays "Amazing Grace."

You get a hangnail. "Amazing Grace."

You spill your beer. Lookout! Here they come again. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:01 AM

Thread drift alert:
Don Firth says:
"Here's something to consider:   No person is the villain in his own movie.
I won't go through the murky convolutions of Adolf Hitler's beliefs, but . . . .
Hitler thought he was doing the right thing."
This is pretty much what Will Smith said recently, that people tend to act for what they see as the best (even if what they see as 'best' is themselves having extreme power or riches, no matter how); he said in effect he doubted even Hitler got up in the morning and said, "Let's see, what can I do that is really evil?" The idea of evil for evil's sake seems to be a standard of cartoons and B movies but does not seem to figure in real life much. But a flock of folks who either did not bother to read or did not bother to think rose up shouting 'Will Smith is a Nazi lover.' Weird reactive populace. (This is related to the fact that niger seed, black thistle seed, is now marketed as 'nyjer' seed so ignorant people are not offended; rather like having folks demand your job if not your head for using the reasonable old word 'niggardly' which means stingy.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Celtaddict
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:04 AM

When my older son was about ten, he asked me, "Why do you always sing about things you disapprove of?" I asked what he meant, and he pointed out, with a certain justice (as I really enjoy sea music as well as old ballads), "Everything you sing is about drinking, fighting, womanizing, or killing whales."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 12:42 AM

Yeah, the first time I heard anyone go all "PC" over the word "niggardly," it surprised the heck out of me. Perfectly good word, meaning "stingy" or "miserly," and the word's etymology identifies it as of Scandinavian origin. No racial connections or implications whatsoever!

Celtaddict, it occurred to me that your son could say exactly the same thing about the songs I sing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:04 AM

A quick scan examination of the information on the internet reveals that Rev. Newton became involved in the slave trade after he was pressed into service and traded, at sea, to a slaver. During his "employ" in Africa, he was essentially held in bondage himself--his "escape" being as a mate on a slaving ship. He commanded only two sailings, both after he had begun his religious studies--on the first, only six slaves died(and this was a time when even non-slave sailings often lost passengers and crew to disease), on the second, none, neither slaves nor crew, were lost.   

Though he experienced a religious epiphany, his religious development came from much study, in both secular and theological areas, over many years. He studied with the leading clerics of his day, including John Wesley--his writings were evangelical--he wrote extensively, using the baseness and depravity of his early life as as examples in the conversion of others.

Given the frankness of his writings, and his long service, more than forty years, as priest, curate, and rector, and as one of the leading evangelists of his day, and his later work as one of the leading voices for abolition, the idea that he wasn't "fully repentent" isn't born out by the evidence.

We move for dismissal.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:06 AM

And, incidentally, the famous melody, which, after all, is what the pipers play, is "New Britain", and was added to the verses in the United States, long after Newton's death.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 01:23 AM

Excellent info, Ted. If that's all true, I'd probably not dismiss the case, but I'd surely consider granting probation.

I've found no such info on the internet, could you share your source with me?

thx,
sb

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 07:50 AM

"I've found no such info on the internet" - you must have been rather cursory in your looking than, Steve.

One thing about the tune is, I gather, that it is extremely easy to play on the pipes (insofar as anything is easy to play on the pipes).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,steve baughman, esq.
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:46 PM

"He commanded only two sailings, both after he had begun his religious studies--on the first, only six slaves died(and this was a time when even non-slave sailings often lost passengers and crew to disease), on the second, none, neither slaves nor crew, were lost."

Well, maybe (probably?) I'm an idiot, but the above info has not appeared in the dozen or so Newton sites I've looked at. So since McGrath of Harlow apparently knows exactly where this ubiquitous info is, s/he might kindly direct me to it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Besides, according to he Newton International Center Newton was a captain for six years. Also, his "conversion" was in 1748 but he did not give up seafaring until 1755. Did he only do two trips during that time? Again, I'll keep looking, but some of you are apparently very knowledgable about Newton and will hopefully share some sources with an honest seeker.

Newton Center link is here. As a very pro-Newton outfit, I'm surprised they don't have the info that Newton's defenders have provided above. http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:oW_eBCeB4XgJ:www.johnnewtoncenter.org/john_newton.htm+%22john+newton%22+slaves+died+commanded&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 04:06 PM

Sorry, but I'm on a roll, and the more I read the more I suspect some of the info provided above is nonsense (Newton only captained two voyages, only six slaves ever died on his ships. Sources please.

"Newton later recalled that routinely a quarter of his captives, sometimes as many as half, would not survive the trip across the Atlantic. But there were vast profits to be made from the sale of those who did survive." This is also from a pro-Newton site.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:10 PM

Here is my main source, and it includes Newton Biography, Cowper and Newton Museum sources.

Keeping in mind that, apart from ship's logs, the ultimate source for information on Newton's life is from his own works, I've looked for etexts of "An Authentic Narrative", but have so far come up dry.   He is one of the more intriguing characters of an intriguing time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

Tidbit for drifting thread: Niggling is a way of fishing. Instead of jigging (oddly, also a word with dubious racial overtones) the lure or bait one merely makes almost imperceptible movements. Hence the phrase "a niggling thought" picks up that connotation of tininess, a thought somewhere between the conscious and the subconscious mind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 06:44 AM

Hitler was actually not bad as a painter, in a rather boardroomish style based on the Romanticism of a hundred years before. WAY better than, say, Thomas Kinkade or Winston Churchill.

There certainly WAS widespread recognition in the late 18th century that slavery was immoral. At least, there was in Britain (I have read a lot of the Scottish sources). It was an issue that the working classes could identify with, since they were being fucked over by successive goverments they had no more say in than a slave did. In America it was doubtless different, since the poor colonists were doing exactly what the Jamjaweed of the Sudan are currently doing only on a vastly larger scale, and no way could they have faced an issue elsewhere that might have turned round and confronted them with the moral implications of their own actions.

A few years ago very few people could have named the author of the words. (It seems nobody here knows the composer of the tune, either).   Maybe the best thing that could be done with this song is to reassign the credit back to Anon.

What other words is "New Britain" used for? What's *its* story? - the tune is now far better known than the words, and the words would have been left in oblivion without it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:23 AM

Jack- The words have been set--successfully--to a number of different tunes, several of which are still current in rural America.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:13 PM

If we're worried about whether we should sing it, should we mind St. Paul? He was a murderer, I was reminded today.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 01:25 PM

It's pretty fuzzy in my memory now (I saw the telecast some years ago), but if you can get a copy of the Bill Moyers feature on "Amazing Grace," as I recall, Moyers had a fair amount of background on Newton. If your local public library is sizable and has a good audio/video section, they might have it to check out. I know a DVD of the show has been released.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

I have "Amazing Grace," sung by the Black group of Elder Gray and the Polaski [TN] Prayer Society, on a cd titled "John Work, III, Recording Black Culture," which Camsco probably has. An Amazing rendition in the leader and response tradition, with development of its own melody.

The 'Anon.' suggestion is ridiculous; an example of the reverse bigotism infecting apologists who would bury the past. Would you cut out Newton's name from "Olney Hymns," 1779, and all the succeeding hymnals that carry his words?

"New Britain," appeared in "Virginia Harmony," 1831, James P. Carrell and David S. Clayton (Winchester, VA).
Hmmm, were either of these composers or their families slave-holders? Would you then ban the melody as well? Let's have a good old Savonarolan book-burnin.'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM

Newton commanded three voyages, not two, and nowhere in his "Thoughts on The African Slave Trade" does he claim that he lost only six slaves.

It is beyond belief that he could have sailed from the West Coast of Africa with a cargo of 250 slaves (which he did on his second voyage) and lost only six slaves.

It is, I suppose, possible that his final voyage with only 87 slaves could have been completed with zero mortality.

I think we need input on this thread from someone who has actually studied the original source material.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:40 PM

Steve:

Your reaction to Newton -- completely understandable in its association with brutality -- is nevertheless personal and is not an attribute of the song.

I do think you should not sing the song, because of the extreme discomfort it imposes on you.

However, I feel the song --any song-- MUST be judged on its merits, its import and its use as a vehicle. This particular song does not carry any message in it of those things that are so detestable, and the chances are god (IMHO) that at the time he wrote it, Newton was not being his detestable self, but was rising above that past, whether he stayed there or not.

On that basis, I should say "Yes", if it can be done well.


A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: robinia
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:17 PM

re the hypothetical "lovely little tune" of Hitler. not only would I sing the thing if it truly WERE lovely -- I'm struck by how quickly "right-thinkers" forget Hitler's stance on things that they themselves very much approve of: youth hosteling, Volkswagon, anti-smoking laws . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

For anyone interested in the hymn itself:

The original "Olney Hymns" (by William Cowper and John Newton), published in 1779, several printings and editions, was reproduced in facsimile, first released in 1979, by the Cowper and Newton Museum.
Arranged in three books by Newton, are the many hymns by him and William Cowper. American editions began in the 1780s.
Genie posted Newton's original words to Hymn 41 Book 2 (first words Amazing Grace,) in thread 6791, 13 Sept 02: Hymn 41 Amazing Grace

The DT version put's together Newton's first three verses with three others (by Walker?, dropping Newton's last three; in any case it is not the original.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: robinia
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:22 PM

Or to expand a quote from one of Ivan Doig's novels: "Good ideas (and good tunes) ain't got no pappies."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:32 PM

Olney Hymns is on line:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns.txt for the plain text version, which has a few typing errors; the pdf version is recommended, see under: Olney

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

I like Murray's suggestion that we hear from someone who is a bit of an expert on Newton and the slave trade.

However, that the broader issue is whether it matters what kind of brute Newton was (or was not). I'm hearing most folks say it doesn't matter, as long as either 1) it's a good song or 2)he turned into a good guy later. I respect that.

I suspect that Newton didn't turn into much of a good guy until late in life, which is always the easiest time to do so. Do whatever it takes to make your money (Newton invested money in the slave trade long after he quit slaving) and then after you've secured a comfy nest egg start doing getting all moral about stuff, but never to the extent that your conscience tells you actually to relinquish any of your naughtily acquired gain. Best of both worlds, wealthy and feeling clean.

Sigh, . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:01 PM

Regarding the Hitler analogy (favored by demographic politicians, lawyers, and other sorts), would you refuse to drive on the Autobahn for moral reasons?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:05 PM

Sorry, that should have been political demagogues.

Good God, 'demographic politicians'? I really should preview before posting.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 08:11 PM

Yea, verily, robinia!

The comment has been credited to Martin Luther, John Wesley, and a number of other religious leaders who wrote hymns and put them to melodies well known to most people of their time. When some pathologically pious folk levied criticism that such "popular songs and bawdy ditties" were "unsuitable" for religious music, Luther, Wesley, or whoever it was, is reputed to have responded, "Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"

Amen!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 10:03 PM

"Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"
Well, He just picked up Amazing Grace, in my book :-)

Michael, I picked Hitler just cos he seems to be everybody's favorite villain. So he's convenient. I actually prefer Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 01:01 PM

"Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?" I think that was General William Booth who founded the Salvation Army. That's what the Sally Army says anyway, and they wouldn't be fibbing. Of course he might have been quoting Luther or Wesley.

Champagne Charlie is said to have been the tune in question. With a rewritten set of words.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

Yes, Booth is known to have quoted it a lot and many folk associated with the Salvation Army insist that he was the first to say it. But the comment was around long before Booth.

Consensus seems to be that it actually was John Wesley—or more probably, Charles Wesley—who was the main hymn writer in the family. Lutherans, however, are prone to insist it was Martin Luther. But the hymns Luther wrote tended to follow the usual patterns or liturgical music of his day (somewhat four-square and ponderous, e.g., "A Mighty Fortress is Our God," later tidied up and arranged by Johann Sebastian Bach, who was Lutheran).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:16 AM

I apologize for having deserted this most enjoyable thread--I had more important (but less interesting) things to do--

Having plundered the web of it's Newtononia, the next steps required real investment--contacting the museum folks and buying the books-and that would have, by the present standard, been investing in slavery--which would have been wrong;-)

At any rate, I am curious about the source Steve's oft sited information on Newton's investments and holdings--my admittedly cursory searches found nothing on that--

Also, there is a sort of hobgoblin that keeps appearing, to the effect that if Newton had been sincere, he would have forsaken his ill-gotten gains--I think this a ridiculous idea--

There are many and high-minded and benificent people, from Gates to Soros,and various Rockefellers, down to the present company--all with some measure of wealth that they can dispense--and some of that is ill-gotten wealth--(in fact, there is a somewhat popular theory that all wealth is ill-gotten)--and yet there are few, no matter how goodhearted, who have forsaken their wealth out of regard for it's source.

My thought is that it is unreasonable to expect Newton to have done something that no one else, even in our "enlightened" times, does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:02 PM

I'm still wondering if we should avoid driving on the autobahn, or using any infastructure that was built using exploited labor, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:47 PM

This from the Cowper and Newton Museum, per my inquiry.

Newton captained 3 voyages:

Aug 1750 - Oct 1751 Duke of Argyle
Jun 1752 - Aug 1753 African
Oct 1753 - Aug 1754 African

Note, he's still going strong six years after his conversion in 1748.

As for disgorging ill gotten wealth, I do not agree with Ted, and in fact am surprised to hear him say so forcefully, that it is "a ridiculous idea." Hey, you steal, feel bad about it later, give the stolen stuff back. You kidnap, murder, etc etc, make a bundle, if you feel bad about that then disgorge that profit also. Not a radical idea. Unless, of course, you aren't fully repentant, just in need of some device to feel good about yourself again, in which case platitudes will do and no need to do anything that will affect your pocketbook. In consumer law it's common to make the bad guy disgorge ill gotten gains. Sure, it's a lot to ask of Newton, but is failure to do so is informative. Again, he made money on a deadly and unspeakably cruel practice (and, yes, the slave trade was controversial in England even during his time, it was abolished the year he died) later felt bad about it but not bad enough to suffer a little in the money department. Instead he took the easy way to a clean conscience, wrote nice songs and urged other people to stop doing what he made money doing. Sorry, that's not admirable, it's hypocritical. (History is full of people who renounced evil in toto, and then went from riches to rags because of a principle they believed in. It's not like we're asking Newton to be the first.)

As for Michael's Autobahn issue, I am not sure the analogy applies. Nobody thinks driving the Autobahn says anything about your views of Hitler. By contrast, I think singers of Amazing Grace are misled about Newton's nature. So, yes, drive the Autobahn and sing Amazing Grace, but recognize the nasty stuff that went into their making. And if the public begins to view your participating in those actions as an endorsement of their creators, then maybe you should consider abstaining.

Ted, I'll try to find that investment info for you. I read it at some seemingly reputable site.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:53 PM

Ted, just re read your post. Last week I wrote a check for $1500 to a client for something that I did about ten years ago that has been bugging me. Client never asked for the money and we've been out of touch for a decade. I could have just written a song for him.

Maybe that's why I'm pissed at Newton.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:01 PM

Guest, go piss somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:11 PM

"Nobody thinks driving the Autobahn says anything about your views of Hitler. By contrast, I think singers of Amazing Grace are misled about Newton's nature."

But what if driving down that thing you think my, what an amazing person must've built such an infrastructure?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM

Steve--

As I occasionally have to point out, my comments are intended to be taken l with the lilting irony that we can excercise when we are so removed from events as to be unable to impact them.

In this spirit, I'll point out that Newton has been dead for about two hundred years, so he is not able to comply with any request that you've made, no matter how reasonable it may seem to you.

As to your claim that history is full of people who have forsaken ill-gotten wealth--I'll grant that there have been some--but most kept the ill-gotten wealth--often with the assistance of those sworn to uphold the law--and neither spoke nor speak any regrets.

From the bits of Newton's writing that I have seen, he seemed a particularly stringent and unyielding Calvinist(as if there were any other kind!)--which I respect--and I think he had sincere regrets.

When it comes down to it, you are also stringent and unyielding about your principles, which I do respect--despite appearances to the contrary.

Given all that, I am not about to review the lives of all the lyricists I know of, with a view toward expunging the works of hypocrites and rascals from my repertoire.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Goose Gander
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 02:44 PM

"By contrast, I think singers of Amazing Grace are misled about Newton's nature."

I'm pretty sure that most people who sing Amazing Grace do so because it is a nice song, an expression of faith, or both. I can't imagine too many people who sing it are getting warm and fuzzy over Newton, if they even know who he is.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM

Here is the source for my claim that Newton continued to invest in the slave trade long after his retirmenent. It's the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A22084599

Ted, I think my only disagreement with you is that I think you're letting Newton off easy. But your points are well taken. Michael, yours also. Perhaps there are not many who think much about Newton when singing Amazing Grace.

Sad to say, there may be more of them after this long thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 03:56 PM

What if Amazing Grace was written by someone of a different religion or movement? You might have "Amazing Enlightenment" or "Amazing Jihad" or "Amazing Non-being"! How about "Amazing Humans"? Verses are already coming to mind, some unprintable (to me)! Would we still sing it? The melody stays the same. There is no such thing as a right tune or a wrong tune. The words determine whether the music is appropriate or not. I was really shocked when I learned that the stereotypical circus tune was entitled "Enter the Gladiator"! To me it just does not fit. But, Hey! That's just my opinion. Attack the message, not the mortal frame that bears it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,IRTWM
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM

That is valid only if it were written for the tune, which it wasn't.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 04:42 PM

"But what if driving down that thing you think my, what an amazing person must've built such an infrastructure?"

GUEST,Ida, not even a ripple in the grand scheme of things. It only indicates that the person who thinks that is an ignorarmus about history, and that in no way "glorifies" the builder.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,tda
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM

Exactly. Tongue was firmly in cheek, if that wasn't obvious.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:16 PM

Having been raised in a strict Calvinist environment, I never let anyone off easily. I do prioritize my indignation, however.

Genocide gets a lot of it, (and we've had lots of genocide in the last hundred or so years to be indignant about)--as does the ongoing traffic in slavery. We, with nudging from the likes of Wilberforce and Newton, stopped buying slaves long ago, but the Africans who sold them to us, among others, continue to sell them, and we mostly ignore it, and often patronize those who buy and use them--

I am also very concerned about the traffic in human organs in China, where it seems that untold thousands of political prisoners, regular convicts, and Falun Gong practitioners, have been and continue to be executed on payment of cash, so that their organs can be harvested for transplant--

And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,vetoda
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:33 PM

Steve Baughman, do you drink coffee or eat chocolate?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:35 PM

Ted, the issues you raise are indeed FAR more important than whether folkies in the US sing Amazing Grace or not. Kudos to you for bringing them up. They are all the more important given that our personal consumption practices in the US have an effect on such things as slave labor in the diamond and silver mines and in Chinese prisons. And Lord knows how our voting practices bear on those issues. Would that we were all as passionate about these issues as we have been about John Newton's greatest hit.   

I trust you will agree with me, however, that since more knowledge is usually better than less we are better off knowing more about Newton than knowing less about him.

That being said, I'm ready to stop talking about Amazing Grace, unless, of course, another interesting comment comes up :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:54 PM

"Exactly. Tongue was firmly in cheek, if that wasn't obvious."

My apologies, GUEST,tda. But as you have undoubtedly noted, when it comes to "things PC," often beliefs are so extreme that one may attempt to indulge in a little humorous hyperbola, only to discover there are people who will actually believe something that you thought was a gross exaggeration. In that light, I mistakenly thought you might be serious. Again, sorry!

Curious, but the human being is a strange breed of monkey.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing
From: GUEST,Peter T
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 06:56 PM

"Should we be singing this song??? Or should we leave it for the Klan? I'd sure be curious what folks think about this. "

I'm sure the original poster was wholly in earnest in posing the question. Try reversing the question. Would anyone suggest that we should sing nonsensical, unattractive doggerel because the saintliness of its composer demanded it?

Amazing Grace is probably sufficiently remote from its long-dead writer to be pretty-much value-free save for the words, tune and type of person singing it these days. Part of my rather limited guitar repertoire, I'm afraid, so it gets played willy-nilly. The folk process transmits and handles stuff, just like evolution.

"my lefty folky friends" - would they recognise themselves from that description? Thought the split these days was meant to be Libertarian/Communitarian, anyway.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Amazing Grace. Should We Be Singing it??
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 07:39 PM

Not to oversimplify what has become a multi-faceted and somewhat convoluted, not to say occasionally arcane discussion on the merits of this particular piece, I only have two small points to make.

1. It rarely serves any useful purpose to offer ex post facto
      criticism when we cannot truly know the mind of the author,
      despite the historic tidbits we have, nor can we truly
      know the harsher realities of the world in which he lived.

2. Can the music stand on its own merits and is it widely used and
      revered? If yes, then one may like or dislike the piece, but
      it seems to have stood the test of time - and of its origins.