BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?

Subject: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

I'm completely at a loss.
This word is on the death certificate of a performer I'm researching.
Vasalier
The Queensland government doesn't allow us to have a photocopy of actual certificates and we have to rely on a typist's interpretation. I've contacted them but so far there's no word.

This man usually called himself a "musician". He was, at times, a hotel-owner. The closest I can come is Vitualler but I can't see how that could be written as Vasalier.

The address has an obvious typo in it. In case it helps, the typo is an "a" where an "o" should be. No help really.
Any ideas?
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

In a list of food workers of Paris [here] a vasalier is an occupational name. Can't find out what occupation it is yet, but I will keep looking.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:52 PM

I Googled up a dictionary of job titles and didn't find anything. But I do know, now, what a LUMPIA is:

LUMPIA A bakery product wrapped around a filling to form lumpias (ethnic dish from the Philippines).

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM

http://bham.craigslist.org/fuo/1389586487.html

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:12 PM

Nothing in Larousse.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:14 PM

Thanks, John. We tried a French dictionary but didn't find it. This man was very creative with words -- but of course he was dead when this certificate was issued.
Thanks, S, You never know with this man.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:17 PM

The wording in John's link above applies that a vasalier is a servant, or at least, at the same level in society as a servant.

Will try and find out more.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:20 PM

I should have said, that was the meaning of the word in Paris in 1863, at any rate!

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:27 PM

OK. Thanks Noreen.   That idea may fit with my man. He was a 19th century performer. Maybe he left instructions to his wife about the wording on his certificate. I should have added that he died in 1907 at the age of almost 87. He was still sharp and witty right to the end.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:31 PM

Could be a washer-upper: 'faire la vaiselle' = wash the dishes

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:06 PM

A cavalier rides on a horse, so presumably a vasalier rides on Vaseline.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:13 PM

Well, didn't find 'vasalier', but I did find I had a *vassalier in my dining room.






* one of those antique sideboard things with two doors at the base, two drawers above those, and a couple of recessed shelves resting on the top, decorated above with scrolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:48 PM

Jack Campin: Don't we all, mate! Given the opportunity.

Performer = Wassailer = Busker? Just guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:16 PM

No, a vasalier makes vases.

(Just kidding. Anyone else a fan of Says You, with the fake definitions? )

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:35 PM

Wassailer is a good idea, Gurney. Thanks. In Old Norse it's spelled "Ves heill" as a toast. The "W" might well have been changed. I'm thinking it might have been my man's last joke. It sounds just like him.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:32 AM

In Medieval England a Vassal was a servant or slave....... so this could be another derivative.
The word vasalier, I would suggest, is the French form of whatever it means.... so perhaps a French personage can offer some light on it... anyone know a French person???
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Monique
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:10 AM

I couldn't find "vasalier" in any French dictionary, regular and historical, online and mine, even in Old and Middle French dictionaries.
In Medieval France, a vassal was someone who had sworn an oath of allegiance to his liege lord and/or was "below" in the social hierarchy -the same way as in England I think. But you wouldn't say that vassal was the name of a trade.
I put the word on Google and apart from this thread there's "1890's Normandy Louis XV Vasalier" = mispelling for vassalier = Fr. "vaisselier" = piece of furniture which name derives from "vaisselle", there're two persons' names from Southern France so I searched a couple of Occitan dictionaries to no avail, I also came across a German forum and the word is related to "vassal" -Middle Ages concept.
The only interesting thing I found was when I searched the etymology of "vassalier" : I came across that "En Provence, on rencontre plusieurs noms qui semblent dériver de Vassus, serviteur: il s'agit de VASSEL, VASSELOT, VASSELON, et peut-être VASSALIER." = "In Provence, we come across several names that seem to derive from Vassus, servant: it can be VASSEL VASSELOT VASSELON, and maybe VASSALIER"

So I think that Noreen may have it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:25 AM

The link I gave above IS for that furniture, BTW. A photo.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 10:04 AM

Yes, I LOVE "says you" - and a servant would have been my guess, but I didn't do all the research Monique did.

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM

The idea of servant seems to be the most likely. It's no wonder I'm so interested in this man. 10 years or so and I'm still learning new things about him.
Thank you Noreen and thank you everyone.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Joybell
Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:53 PM

Oh dear!! The Queensland Records Department got back to me at last.
The occupation is "Vocalist".
I did think of that -- right off -- but I couldn't imagine how you could get Vasalier from Vocalist. Even with the worst handwriting.
Anyway sadly, it's not one last joke.
Thank you everyone again.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:24 AM

:0)
Never mind, I've learned a new word because of your request!

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:28 AM

'Well, didn't find 'vasalier', but I did find I had a *vassalier in my dining room.






* one of those antique sideboard things with two doors at the base, two drawers above those, and a couple of recessed shelves resting on the top, decorated above with scrolls. '


**********

Was the deceased's name Chester Drawers? 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM

Parlons maintenant des dilTerentes sortes de pain con-
somraees dans la capilale. Du Cange a donn^, d'apr6s de
Yieilles chartes, la lisle suiyante des pains qui, au moyen
dge, obtenaient la preference : pain primo, — de pape^ —
de coui\ — de la bouche, — de chevalier^ — d'ecuyer^ —
de chanoine, — de salle pour les hdtes, — de vasaliers ou
de servants^ — de valet j — Truses^ — Tribolet, — Ferez^ —
Maillau, — de mais^ — Chmrne^ — Chouchol, — Dengin^ —
Salignau. Les oublayers vendaienl ce dernier pain dans
les rues (I). II y avait encore des pains pour les dejeu-
ners, nommes pour celte raison malinaux^ — les pains
du Saiw^E^pn^qde,* pendant la somaine de la Pentecote,
on distribuait aux pauvres, — ct enfin, \q^ pains d'eirennes
que, yers les fdtes de Noel, les paroissiens offraient a
leur cur6.

The text is discussing types of bread consumed in Paris since the Middle Ages, and among other types includes "pain de vasaliers ou
de servants".

The other use of the word is for a side board of around Louis XV. This might imply that the vasalier was a servingperson charged with maintaining the sideboard, or standing by it during a formal dinner. This is a guess.

Excerpt from "Les ouvrier de Paris--Alimentation" (Workers of Paris--Food Industry)

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:44 AM

........like 'vassal'??

Subject: RE: BS: Any ideas about the word 'vasalier' ?
From: Monique
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:32 AM

Here is the excerpt Amos copied and pasted:
"Parlons maintenant des différentes sortes de pain consommées dans la capitale. Du Cange a donné, d'après de vieilles chartes, la liste suivante des pains qui, au moyen âge, obtenaient la préférence : pain primo, — de pape — de cour — de la bouche, — de chevalier — d'écuyer — de chanoine, — de salle pour les hôtes, — de vasaliers ou de servants — de valet — Truses — Tribolet, — Ferez — Maillau, — de maïs — Chœrne — Chouchol, — Dengin — Salignau. Les oublayers vendaient ce dernier pain dans les rues (I). II y avait encore des pains pour les déjeuners, nommés pour cette raison matinaux — les pains du Saint-Esprit, que, pendant la semaine de la Pentecôte, on distribuait aux pauvres, — et enfin, les pains d'étrennes que, vers les fêtes de Noël, les paroissiens offraient à leur curé."

When you see the difference between what was actually written on "Les ouvriers de Paris..." and how the digitalized text came out, no wonder that "vasalier" could actually be a vocalist if the typist couldn't read the handwriting correctly. You sometimes find this type of new words on students' works when they couldn't copy their class mates' works properly.