BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!

Subject: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:42 PM

Yet for some reason, most the US media keeps using the word being peddled by the White House.

Bush goes on Arab TV and not only doesn't apologize, but says justice will be served just as soon as we know the truth.

Which I suppose is why the torturers are being let off the hook already. From an article in today's Washington Post (mind you, this is for murdering an Iraqi):

"In the death of another detainee at another Iraqi prison, who was shot while assaulting a U.S. soldier with rocks, the soldier was found guilty of using excessive force. He was demoted to the rank of private and discharged from the Army in place of a court-martial, an Army spokesman said."

Wouldn't want to give anyone jail time for killing "enemy combatants" now would we?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:49 PM

The real target of your ire should well be Bush himself, N.O. Ranting at half-eddicated underlings is not going to accomplish anything.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:10 PM

On second thought it is short sighted of me to think the soldier should have appreciated having rocks thrown at him. But couldn't he have just clubbed the Iraqi?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:54 PM

But it is just abuse. The soldiers only abuse the prisoners and then hand them over to the "civilian contractors" who do the real torturing. It's in the Torturers' Union contract with the government that the soldiers aren't allowed to do any of the torturing, only abusing. It's right after the clause that says that they can't be tried in a U.S. military court because they're civilians, but they can't be tried in U.S. civilian courts because they're in Iraq, and they can't be tried in Iraqui courts because they're Americans.   

It's similar to the rule that says the detainees at Guantanamo Bay have no rights under U.S. law because they're in Cuba and they have no rights under Cuban law because the U'S. doesn't recognize Cuban law. And they have no rights as prisoners of war because the entity for which they were fighting is not a state and, hence, not a signatory of the Geneva Convention.

Franz Kafka would have no shortage of book ideas if he were alive today.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:02 PM

But soldiers do appreciate having rocks thrown at them. Better rocks than bullets any day. Nerf balls are very highly thought of.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:10 PM

Depends a lot on the rock. A large chunk of cinder block from a short distance away can kill just as easily as a bullet can.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:13 PM

I still prefer nerf balls. Or nerf bullets, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:33 PM

"It's not the sort of thing we do" - except in Vietnam... and many other places...

I notice Kerry is rather quiet - didn't he try to testify that such nastiness took place in the US Military, and was disbelieved and severely criticised for daring to speak out?

It appears that some people are just not willing to accept reality, and the rest of the country was quite willing to put them in charge of the most powerful Military in the World. (Don't forget the large number of US citizens who refuse to vote...)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: el ted
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:38 AM

The hysteria has been amazing. Hitler must be laughing his nuts off. A sense of perspective is called for here.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Stu
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:40 AM

"The hysteria has been amazing. Hitler must be laughing his nuts off. A sense of perspective is called for here."

In whay way el ted?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:47 AM

Hey, what's in a word...If Bushy-baby wants to call it "abuse", let him. He should know all about self-abuse anyway, the w****r.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:45 AM

The US government and it's media puppets are studiously avoiding the use of the word 'torture' so that the Geneva Conventions don't get invoked against them at the UN, where they have gone hat in hand, to look for any old warm military force with a pulse to bail them out.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:02 AM

Bush:          "I KNEW NOTHING" (which is typical)
Rush Limbaugh: "It was no different than a college prank"


Rumsfeld:

They wore an itsybitsy
teeny weenie CIA hood
they can't see me,

when we take pics
of detainees dicks.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:15 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/rumsitsy.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:22 PM

Fo me, almost worse than Bush not coming out with an honest and simple apology (arrogant brat that he is), was the embarassing smirk on his face.

Oh how I would love to slap that sly grin off his face!

JB

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:09 PM

Or, as we were discussing in the sci fi movie thread, someone ripping off his face, and exposing him as a lizard alien.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:12 PM

Did Rush Limbaugh actually say that? Boy, do I have a "college prank" figured out for him!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:31 PM

torture is a nasty subset of abuse. Some were tortured, some were 'merely' abused.

(I think 'abuse' is a subset of 'stupidity')

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:53 PM

Any bad treatment which is intended to get information out of people, or soften them up so that they will talk, is torture.

I note that the guy they have put in charge of Abu Ghraib, who was previously in charge of Guantanamo Bay, has said that he thinks that stuff like sleep deprivation, and a range of other "interrogation techniques", are fine by him. Well he would, wouldn't he?

So I'd not be too hopeful about an end to torture. But there probably won't be many more photos coming out, so that should make life a lot easier for the people up the line.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:42 AM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.

Oh, I know, we shouldn't capture the enemy in the first place. We don't need intelligence, right? We should simply be Superman and leap over buildings.

Give me a break.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:51 AM

Bee-dubya-ell got it right.

Doesn't really matter if it was torture or abuse - most abuse is torturous. What matters is who will be blamed and punished. As pointed out - it won't be the well-paid, private contractors who actually carry out the torture and are immune from all military and civil law.

Unfortunately, it will be the army reservists who were trained as clerical staff, auto mechanic, etc. who will take the fall. The poor, uneducated and highly impressionable small-town kids who were assigned to a position where they were highly manipulated. I am so sick of the war mongers using these kids to do their dirty work. Its probably the first time some of them have even been away from home.

I'm not trying to say they are innocent. They are probably guilty but lets remember that military service changes people. I had a little brother who was a "cry baby." When he turned 18 he joined the Marines. He came home with eyes of steel. He's never been the same.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 03:52 AM

Interrogation is easy, Doug.
EASY, I tell you.
And if you ever studied the art, you would know exactly what I mean.

Give me a break!

I have interviewed some of the toughest nuts around, and have never laid a finger on any of them. I have received some very valuable insights as a result. If I ever heard that any of my team had, I would have trailed their ass though every court in the land.

The humanity of the person you are interviewing need never ever be infringed upon.

I have a feeling that you have been watching too Bruce Willis films, or something.

I have a feeling that some of our 'finest' do, as well

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:06 AM

'Torture' in the many international conventions and in international Law is defined as severe physical or mental pain or suffering and not just as 'any bad treatment'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:16 AM

All prisoners are entitled to be kept under reasonable basic conditions, and that includes adequate sleep, food, clothing and shelter.

Any interrogation or questioning has to be consistent with that. Once you authorise stepping over that line, you inevitably end up with the kind of nauseating stuff we've been hearing about. Except normally we don't hear about it, because the photographic evidence isn't there to attract attention. Detailed allegations like this have been around for a longtime, but they have been ignored, because it's easy to ignore allegations from people who claim to have been tortured and abused.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 May 04 - 10:52 AM

"Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information."
well, Doug...and how far would YOU go? The complaints were not about sleep deprivation. You seem to assume that every prisoner has the information you seek? How much "creative interrogation" is reasonable if the guy keeps saying "I don't KNOW the answer?" The reports on much of this seem to indicate that there were attempts to simply gain "confessions", not just information. Didn't John McCain report that this is how POWs in Viet Nam & Cambodia were treated? Abuse them until they say what you want, whther it has any relation to reality or not.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:00 PM

Its me again!
Many children in this country are beaten, starved, locked up, kept in chains, etc. It is "officially" written into our laws as "Child Abuse". Same for "Spousal Abuse", "Animal Abuse" etc. It is not called "torture" although that is certainly what the suffering subject is being subjected to. It's a shame that an "enemy combatant" should have such consideration shown for his sensitivities and rights when we have already written off the word torture for our own children and spouses.

My Websters dictionary definition of torture does not mention a distinction between assault for information or assault for it's own sake.

Some methods used to interrogate will undoubtedly be called torture by someone. Pushing a person through physical pain to confess or provide information is only likely to result in information that can't be trusted by those that must act on it. The only reason I can think of for them doing it is to provide some flimsy evidence to "prove" the WMD's were around, were sold to terrorists, ties to Al Quaida, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:16 PM

No Chief Chaos, its a shame that any human being should have have their human rights wrtitten off.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:30 PM

The distinction between use of the word torture and abuse is relevant in legal terms. The Geneva Convention uses the word torture to describe the treatment the Iraqi detainees received at the hands of US troops and private contractors. Torture is what raises this sort of abuse to the level of war crimes. It is also relevant because it regulates the treatment of prisoners in war time, not in civilian circumstances where people might be tortured. That is a different set of laws entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:03 PM

What is appauling is this nit picking between "torture" and "abuse".

Both are unaceptable.

Torture is not a reliable means of gathering intelligence, bribary can be.

It appears the US of A has forgotten history.

Having said that bit I am not prepared to to enter any arguments on the morality of those who say, such as Despotic Governments in the Middle East, or "Freedom Fighters" in Ireland, who scream "torture" where Brits/ US of A are concerned, and have a different attitude towards thier own treatment of "dissidants" and "informers" - The word for that is Hypocracy (SP)

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:44 PM

And that applies both ways. And there's an awful lot of it about.

The practice of diverting attention to the evil done by opponents, as a way of drawing attention from the things done by our own side, or even justifying them, is very widespread.

Though in the case of countries with a reputation for using torture, it's worth noting that much of the time they aren't opponents, they are allies, and there is very well documented of how their torturing expertise and readiness are used as a very convenient resource by the people on "our" side.

I suspect that after this current fire storm has subsided, that practice will be greatly extended to avoid a repetition of the embarrassment caused. (After all, if those pictures had come out from a torture facility in, say Egypt, it wouldn't have caused anything like this concern in America or Europe, since it could have been written off as something "they" might do, but "we" never would.)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 May 04 - 09:02 PM

I was in charge of an IPW (Interrogation of Prisoners of War) section in an Army Reserve Military Intelligence Detachment at one time. Laying hands (or any other part of the anatomy) on a prisoner was absolutely forbidden. So was anything else that caused injury physical discomfort. The methods we were taught to use, because they are proven to work, were such things as "good cop/bad cop" and "I only want you to confirm what someone else has told us." The explaination we are now getting, that the spooks got in there and convinced the soldiers that they had the authority to give them orders, sounds more and more convincing. That is far from an excuse, however.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 07 May 04 - 09:12 PM

"Having said that bit I am not prepared to to enter any arguments on the morality of those who say, such as Despotic Governments in the Middle East, or "Freedom Fighters" in Ireland, who scream "torture" where Brits/ US of A are concerned, and have a different attitude towards thier own treatment of "dissidants" and "informers"

Gareth not only wants to have his cake, and to eat it.
He also wants to have a glass or two of Champagne.

With cherries.

But you're learning..., in fairness    !

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:07 AM

Jim Would you mind translating your comments into English, as it stands at the moment, I have difficulty in comprehending what you mean. As no doubt do many others.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 May 04 - 12:09 PM

Gareth you really are a genius, how the hell do you operate the keys in a strait-jacket.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:26 PM

Simple I just imagine I'am an aging brain damaged republican.

Oh dear, Can't Jim reply, or is Jims reply cant ? or is he busy being indoctrinated again.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:38 PM

No, Gareth. Nothing like that.

You just wouldn't understand, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:39 PM

Its really absurdly simple. Doug can explain further, if needed:

1. When the U.S. or its minions perpetrates it, its merely "interrogation" possibly bordering on "abuse".

2. When any other nation perpetrates it- in particular those godless Eye-Rackie towel-head terrorist sonzabitches that blew up the Twin Towers,& messed with poor private whats-her-name, its "torture'.

Q.E.D.

I believe, I do, I believe its true
I believe exactly what they tell me to
I believe, I do, I believe its true
I'm a simple guy, I believe.

Works for me-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:49 PM

Yet for some reason, most the US media keeps using the word being peddled by the White House.
-----

It was NOT torture. It was wrong, idiotic, abuse, shameful; etc.

Torture is what happened when Saddan Hussein was in charge, Saddam had rape rooms, and forced parents to watc children's eyes be gouged out, sentenced a 10 year old boy to prison for years because he refused to join the Baathist regime.

Are you aware the media knew about this shameful incident in January when it happened, and the military chain of command started an investigation ONE day after they became aware of the incident. The media sat on this story for three months until they had pictures to shock the nations conscience.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:02 PM

torturing. It's in the Torturers' Union contract with the government that the soldiers aren't allowed to do any of the torturing, only abusing. It's right after the clause that says that they can't be tried in a U.S. military court because they're civilians, but they can't be tried in U.S. civilian courts because they're in Iraq, and they can't be tried in Iraqui courts because they're Americans.   
-----

You are correct that private contractors do the interogating.

What people saw was idiotic attempts to prevent the people from sleeping.

It was idiotic to dehumanize the prisoners the way they did.

It was stupidity to take pictures and videotapes.

In another portion of the message you talked about the geneva convention. Your lack of knowledge in this matter astounds me.

1. During the Vietnam War; the VC NEVER treated American soldiers according to the geneva convention because the Viet Kong was not a signatory of the Geneva convention.

2. We can not categorize the detainees (prisoners in Iraq and in Cuba) as prisoners of war. The reason for this is that they are NOT members of the Iraqi army (they wore no uniform, and had no identification as a soldier of the Iraqi army. Since they wore NO military uniform, and had NO military identification (ID or even dog tags); so they ONLY way the foreign fighters, and Iraqi civilians CAN be classified are as enemy combatants, and such people are not entitled (by law) the benefits of Prisoner of war status.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:07 PM

The US government and it's media puppets are studiously avoiding the use of the word 'torture' so that the Geneva Conventions don't get invoked against them at the UN, where they have gone hat in hand, to look for any old warm military
-----

If it was torture; I would agree with you.

I will agree that it was awful stupid, wrong, and humiliating; but not torture.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:10 PM

Bribery is not a reliable way of obtaining info as unless the person providing info stays within the perview of his "contacts" he can take money for false info and fade into the crowd. And once a person is bought, there is no reason to believe that he can't be bought by the other side. That person may also be working for the other side providing just enough to be a good source but providing disinformation as well. THe only way it works is to have several sources offering the same info that can be corroborated. That gets rather expensive and is still not that reliable. None of this is to be construed to exhonerate using torture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:12 PM

Fo me, almost worse than Bush not coming out with an honest and simple apology (arrogant brat that he is), was the embarassing smirk on his face.
----

That's just great; have someone that had nothing to do with the idiotic behaviour; appologize, take responsibility for the activity.

I say find the oes that are guilty of the actions; court martial them, then send them to Leavenworth for the next 10 years. The same should be dished out to the people that ordered them to do it.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:14 PM

Did Rush Limbaugh actually say that? Boy, do I have a "college prank" figured out for him!!
----

Unfortunately; Rush really did say that stupid remark.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:21 PM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.
-----

I see someone else like me sneaked in.

Good for you!

I wish the people would stop listening to the 7 second sound bytes that are designed to evoke emotion instead of applying logic and and reason to the situation.

The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians. They are NOT members of an Iraqi army, and have no official Iraqi identification, and they are not entitled to the status of POW, and are NOT entitled to the Geneva Convention.

I was beginning to think I was the only one here that understood the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:26 PM

So, McGrath, if you were the officer in charge of interrogation, how would YOU get the information you needed? Offer them tea and cakes, and hope they cooperate? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence? Sleep deprivation is not torture. It's a method of gaining needed information.
-----

Diana:

The guilty ones are the ones that should take the fall. No more; no less.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:28 PM

All prisoners are entitled to be kept under reasonable basic conditions, and that includes adequate sleep, food, clothing and shelter.
-----

They AREN'T prisoners of war. They are enemy combatants, and the Geneva Convention is NOR applicable to Enemy Combatants

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:42 PM

Many children in this country are beaten, starved, locked up, kept in chains, etc. It is "officially" written into our laws as "Child

   Hello Chaos. Lots of children was abused. I sure was.

think of for them doing it is to provide some flimsy evidence to "prove" the WMD's were around, were sold to terrorists, ties to Al Quaida, etc.

   They do not need flimsy evidence. It is FACT that Saddam Hussein
   HAD WMDs. He used them against the Kurds, and in the Iraqi and
   Iranian war. There is video proof that Saddam Hussein USED WMDs in
   the past does NOT give me a warm fuzzy feelings that they have noy
   been found yet.

   Did Hussein ship the WMDs he had to Syria?

   Did Hussein place them aboard those three ships that flew
   different nation flags at different times; when ships are supposed
   to fly the flag of the nation of ownership.

   Did Hussein order the army to bury the WMDs in sand, and use GPS
   to mark the sites. A few months ago; the U.S. Military found a
   complete jet buried in the sand.

   Did Hussein sell the WMDs or terrorists, and they are trying to
   smuggle them into the U.S. I do not want to see the report that
   millions of people in LA, Chicago, New York, San Francisco, etc
   were killed by Anthrax, VX gas, etc.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:47 PM

"It was NOT torture. It was.... abuse...
What people saw was .... attempts to prevent the people from sleeping
.... to dehumanize the prisoners the way they did
I will agree that it was ... humiliating; but not torture."

Looks like you studied at the Gareth Williams Institute for Advanced Debating Skills (GWIADS for short)

"It was stupidity to take pictures and videotapes."

It was not. It was serendipitous.
Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion

"Iraqi civilians CAN be classified are as enemy combatants, and such people are not entitled (by law) the benefits of Prisoner of war status."

They CAN also be classified as innocent civilians

"I wish the people would stop listening to the 7 second sound bytes that are designed to evoke emotion instead of applying logic and and reason to the situation"

So do I.

And I wish they would stop taking 9 posts to say it

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:49 PM

The distinction between use of the word torture and abuse is relevant in legal terms. The Geneva Convention uses the word torture to describe the treatment the Iraqi detainees received at the hands of US troops and private contractors. Torture is
-----

Excuse me; but if you were as intelegent as you THINK you are; you would study the Geneva Convention (GC), and UNDERSTAND that the GC ONLY applies to POWS, then you would do research to see if the POW status is applicable to the detainees, and the detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. They are NOT. They are only entitled to the status of enemy combatant.

True POWs are members of other nations's army, and have identification providing NAME, ID number, and other material.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:51 PM

Is it OK if we rub your nose in it 2 Bears, when your theories fall flat on their face?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:53 PM

Simple I just imagine I'am an aging brain damaged republican.
-----

Interesting! I think the same thing about some bleeding heart liberals.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Looks like you studied at the Gareth Williams Institute for Advanced Debating Skills (GWIADS for short)

   Nope. ;-)

They CAN also be classified as innocent civilians

   Absolutely; providing they are inocent

And I wish they would stop taking 9 posts to say it

   Unfortunely; there is so much bilge claiming to be fact; it took 9
   posts yo do it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:05 PM

Is it OK if we rub your nose in it 2 Bears, when your theories fall flat on their face?
-----

Absolutely! If I misquote; or make mistakes in my debating; they deserve to be pointed out so not to confuse others.

Are you willing to be put through the same treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:07 PM

What exactly have I claimed?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:26 PM

You sure that isn't Two Beers? Or possibly Running Mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:29 PM

The published word is no respector of sobriety

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:37 PM

You sure that isn't Two Beers? Or possibly Running Mouth?

   Greg: Your comment proves that you can not debate the issues
   fairly; so you have to use insults.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:40 PM

"Your comment proves that you can not debate the issues ..."

Neither can you, Two_bears..... well you haven't done so yet, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 04 - 01:04 AM

It is sometimes useful to have some idea what you are talking about before you start talking. There are a number of Geneva Conventions. Among these are different ones that apply to civilians and to POWs. Two bears, since you insist that these "detainees" are not POWs, I suggest that you look at Article 6 of the civilian convention, which specifically states that Articles 3(1)(a) and (c) apply to this situation. (a) forbids cruel treatment and torture and (c) bans "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment." Both the US and Iraq are signators, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 May 04 - 01:47 AM

from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Torture (2). Severe excurciating pain or suffering of body or mind; anguish, agony, torment.

Perhaps some have lost the capacity to comprehend or speak the English language?

Comprehend (2). To grasp with the mind, take in. ME. (3). To apprehend with the senses, esp. sight.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 09 May 04 - 02:46 PM

It is sometimes useful to have some idea what you are talking about before you start talking. There are a number of Geneva Conventions. Among these are different ones that apply to civilians and to POWs. Two bears, since you insist that these "detainees" are not POWs, I suggest that you look at Article 6 of the civilian convention, which specifically states that Articles 3(1)(a) and (c) apply to this situation. (a) forbids cruel treatment and torture and (c) bans "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment." Both the US and Iraq are signators, BTW.
-----

   Most of the attacks against the Iraqi civilians, and Iraqi police,
   and U.S, military; are caused by foreign fighters from Syria,
   Jordan, and assorted terrorists.

   How should they be categorized?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:09 PM

"The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians."

That simply is not true. Clearly whatever sources you have been reading have failed to give you an accurate picture. The people in that prison are people who have been picked up for a number of reasons. Some appear to have been pulled in more or less at random, because the people whom the arresting party had gone out to get were not there when they got there, and they didn't want to return empty-handed. In some cases, after being held in terrible conditions, the people pulled in have been released without any kind of charge, let alone any kind of trial.

This isn't a matter of controversy. It has been reported in the whole range of media in this country (England), and no doubt in most countries.

.....................

Once again. All prisoners are entitled to be kept under reasonable basic conditions, and that includes adequate sleep, food, clothing and shelter. All prisoners - prisoners of war, civilians, criminals, hostages, soldiers or guards awaiting court martial, the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:11 PM

Granted, if only for the sake of discussion, that this is correct, the Civilian Convention states the following:

Art. 3(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

In other words, once thay are placed hors de combat by detention, they are entitled to all of the protections of the convention.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:17 PM

It's double speak. Typical of the nonsense that is being flushed out of Bush & Bliar's mouths.

   War criminals lied at Nuremburg too.

Damn their eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 May 04 - 04:00 PM

" Most of the attacks against the Iraqi civilians, and Iraqi police,
   and U.S, military; are caused by foreign fighters from Syria,
   Jordan, and assorted terrorists.

   "How should they be categorized?" --Two Bears

As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty.

As an American, I believe these are inalienable rights, no matter what the Geneva Convention or any other set of rules says.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 09 May 04 - 04:21 PM

If they are not POWS, they are civilians and are innocent until proven guilty.

Two Bears doesn't seem to understand that subjecting human beings to degradation is unnaceptable to civilized people.

Two Bears commented: "Lots of children was abused. I sure was."

I think that Two Bears needs to realize that that this is not normal.
I'm sorry it happened to you Two Bears. It wasn't your fault. You need to get some help.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 04 - 04:47 PM

Two_bears : 09 May 04 - 02:46 PM

"assorted terrorists"

How many of them do you get for a penny?
10?

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 09 May 04 - 06:22 PM

Err Jim - What makes you think that you can debate the issues ?

Or is your ideal of a good debate one in which everybody agrees with your prejudices ?

Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 09 May 04 - 07:22 PM

Can you give me some example of these prejudices that I am supposed to have, Gareth?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 May 04 - 09:52 PM

'In Detroit, which has the biggest concentrations of Arabs outside the Middle East, neither the Free Press nor the News ran the torture photos.
USA Today, the largest U.S. general circulation daily paper, published thumbnail-size photos of 116 U.S. soldiers killed during April on its front page, and bypassed the Iraq photos entirely.'


http://www.atheistnetwork.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1853

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 04 - 10:42 PM

Well, these are pretty graphic for a family newspaper. A brief look at the Free Press's website would show that the abuse issue is being covered very well. (www.freep.com)   The on-line edition of USA Today shows pictures that my local paper wouldn't, for that very reason.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:45 AM

I'm not so sure it's good to insist on the word "torture." Torture is an emotionally-charged word. I suppose "abuse" has an emotional impact, but it's not as strong. If you portray "torture" as appalling, are you implying that "abuse" is not?

When we decry injustice, I think it is imperative that we avoid the use of emotionally-charged words. Pure logic is our best weapon in defense of justice.

I don't care what the reason - it's not humane to mistreat a prisoner for any reason, no matter how compelling your need to obtain information. The conduct of the U.S. personnel was appalling, and it makes me ashamed to be an American.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:07 AM

Don't forget, there have been several homicides involved. That should qualify as torture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:45 AM

OK. Sadam Hussein's regime did not torture prisoners, they abused them. Chile, under Pinochet's government did not use torture, they abused their citizens. It wasn't exactly torture that took place in Argentina, it was abuse. And the Spanish Inquisition abused suspected heritics in order to obtain information from them.

I now stand disabused of my previous perceptions. You are right, the word "torture" is emotionally charged, but sometimes one needs a jolt to get real.   

Please don't be ashamed to be an American, Joe, there are those in the world that recognize the wonderful humanity of the American people too. Abuse of authority and power occurs in all countires, including my own and probably always will, as long as it is allowed to be hidden under rocks and couched in sanitized terms.

What makes the US special in some regards is that a lot of Americans have always had the courage to stick their necks out and examine their own dirty laundry in public. That it one of the things that I admire about the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:25 AM

"The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians" (two bears)

Further to my comment to the effect that this claim just is not true -this is what General Taguba had to say in his official report. Here's a relevant quote from Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB:

"A lack of proper screening also meant that many innocent Iraqis were wrongly being detained—indefinitely, it seemed, in some cases. The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Karpinski's defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers "routinely" rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners.

The New Yorker coverage of this is the one from which most of the rest of the media stories appear to take their starting point.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:39 AM

Two Bears is a great guy, and a good friend of mine, but he's a bit addled when it comes to politics...in my opinion. :-) This is the result of having grown up as a Republican, in all probability. While being tremendously liberal (meaning flexible and open-minded) about most subjects, he rails against "bleeding heart liberals" when it comes to politics. This is ironical.

People's views about reality generally get set very early in life, so if one grows up in a circumstance where "conservatives" are seen as good guys and "liberals" are seen as bad guys...well, one just keeps on seeing it that way.

So, you can expect to continue disagreeing with Two Bears on politics.

The News Media are now reporting that 70 to 90 % of the Iraqi prisoners were wrongfully arrested, in that they never posed a threat to coalition forces in the first place, nor had they made any attack on coalition forces.

The coalition doesn't have enough soldiers on the ground to properly police Iraq, its soldiers are inadequately trained and lack experience, and they have been pre-conditioned by several years of propaganda to hate Muslims. The fact that they then arrest the wrong people, imprison the wrong people, and commit atrocities on those prisoners is really almost inevitable. The particular degree and nature of their acts, however, is inexcusable...just as it was in Vietnam. They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:59 AM

It's one thing to have a different opinion about how facts should be interpreted - but it's a different thing to make a completely false statement, like the one from "Two bears" that I quoted. (""The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians"") I assume this was not an intentional lie, but that he hadn't checked up on the facts, as contained in that official report by General Taguba.

I am aware that some mainstream media may have printed stories that misinformed him on this important point - but what with Google and so forth, it doesn't take very long to check up on that kind of stuff, and identify more reliable sources of information.

Obviously we can't all agree. There are clearly a lot of people who share "Two bear's" view of the situation, so it's a good thing thta the Mudcat provides a space where we can explore our differences in a courteous way. But, as the saying goes "Comment is free, but facts are sacred".

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:07 PM

It was an impression he had, McGrath. That impression my have been garnered from something he read or heard somewhere else, as you suggest. Quite probably.

Yes, facts are sacred, but here's the weird thing about facts: People usually only notice the facts they are inclined to look for in the first place, and they will allow those facts, and only those, to back up their established opinions. They will fail to notice, discount, or deny other facts and say that those other facts are rumour, hearsay, fabrications, lies, misconceptions, irrelevant, beside the point, etc...

And we all do it. Except maybe Mr Spock or Data from Star Trek. :-)

Given the fact that there are always more facts available than anyone can keep track of AND that the news media are themselves prejudiced in regard to which facts they deem worthy of reporting and which should be ignored...we are all operating on only part of the facts!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:13 PM

Being selective about facts is one way to deceive other people and to deceive oursleves, and we all do it. But we can at least try to avoid stating as facts things which are demonstrably false.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Try Here Jim, its argument Jim, but not as we know it !

"Subject: RE: BS: Scott Ritter:Kerry also to blame for war
From: Jim McCallan - PM
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 09:18 PM

One of the better things you have to do, Gareth, obviously does not include contributing anything of moment to the conversations you embroil yourself in.

From the limited time I have been reading your drivel, I would put a mental age on you, of about 13.

I can plainly see that some of the concepts discussed in these threads go miles over your head, and you contradict yourself continually.

I hope I said that politely "

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 02:23 PM

Quoting a PM in an argument on a thread? I'm sure there's a decree against that somewhere. If not, there should be.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:09 PM

Excellent quote, Gareth.

Don't see anything about prejudice in there, though.
Just me telling you that you are not up to discussing some of the conversations in these threads; something to do with your prejudices keeping you back, I should think.

You see, it takes away from the discussion at hand, when people have to continually jump in and correct you, Gareth. Your facts are often wrong; you misquote people, and it is tedium to have to go back and keep on correcting you. It is, actually...
You don't seem to pay attention to much of the content that some people contribute to this forum, and your first line of defence always seems to consist of questioning the intelligence of your interlocutor, or as you have so inexcusably done above when you called somebody 'brain-damaged' If you spent a bit more time actually reading others' posts, and 'formulating' what you are going to say, I think I might respect you a bit better that I presently do.

You have changed your position about this war in Iraq, since I first started reading your posts. I think you know this yourself, as well.
That is good, for if there is one thing that this kind of a discussion forum is good for, it is to make people think about positions they hold, and the relevancy of them as time travels on. Hence the spake that 'you are learning'

Don't look for demons everywhere you go, and try and be a bit kinder to those who don't agree with you. The '13year old drivel' that I was referring to in that post,as you know very well was me reacting to your ridiculous (and criminal suggestion), that you would without question kill your children if you thought they would grow up to be another Saddam Hussein.

That is not the kind of thing I would even joke about, Gareth, and the printed word, on this forum, defines one.
I didn't 'know' you long when you made that remark, and I really had second thoughts about informing the people you are also as vocal in representing here; the Caerphilly Labour Party, about some of your 'final solutions'.

Where on Earth do you think you are?
This isn't a game we're playing here, Gareth, certainly not for me; a game where the person with the snappiest 'fuck off' line 'wins'

I have no doubt that behind all your hang-ups, you probably are quite politically astute.
You choose not to go that way, however.
Instead quite a lot of us have to stop our train of thought to 'wipe your arse' every once in a while, and as I said above, that can be quite tedious.

Another thing I could do, of course, is to ignore you in future. I am under no obligation to even acknowlege you on this forum, never mind respond to your "Errrr Jim's.... " Because if you can't grasp the concepts that are being thrown open for discussion, here, well then why the devil should I waste my precious time 'correcting' you?
It is not the reason I come to this forum.

To make sure you do not misunderstand me, again, please keep this quote in your notebook, Gareth:
I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!

Have you got that, now?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:16 PM

Hello Kevin.
Gareth wasn't quoting a PM; I have never communicated privately with the man. (although I did have one quite sinister PM from him, after I made that post)

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:32 PM

Lets get back on track, did anyone see Blair on Channel 4 News tonight, John Snow`s line of questioning had him waffling when he was asked, did he intend to question the visiting Chinese Prime Minister on Human Rights. The answer was incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:52 PM

Bot a PM? I misread the post. I'm glad about that. Gareth can be a pugnacious vilain at times, but generally a fair one.

I think we sometimes build up a mental picture of people we tangle with on these threads which doesn't really match reality. And sometimes people play up to misunderstandigs like that, in a way that reinforces the misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:53 PM

Not a PM? I misread the post. I'm glad about that. Gareth can be a pugnacious villain at times, but generally a fair one.

I think we sometimes build up a mental picture of people we tangle with on these threads which doesn't really match reality. And sometimes people play up to misunderstandigs like that, in a way that reinforces the misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 04:17 PM

Absolutely, McGrath. I used to picture Clinton Hammond as a raving lunatic with a military crewcut, who opened cans of Budweiser with his teeth while gnawing on bones and raw, bloody meat from half-dead animals. I was agreeably surprised to find out that he is actually worse than that in real life... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 04:46 PM

Quite a tirade from Jim - One point I think I should make that "(although I did have one quite sinister PM from him, after I made that post)" and as I made it I think it is in order to quote directly "No chum, over yer head !" No what is sinister about that ?? Perhaps you could tell us all. If you took that as a threat then I appologise. I don't make threats.

I question your statement "Your facts are often wrong; you misquote people, and it is tedium to have to go back and keep on correcting you." Please elucidate !

My facts tend to be accurate - Even if unpopular in some quarters. What you are overlooking is that I tend to raise matters which some consensuses would prefer I do not.

I appreciate that you state that "I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!" Perhaps you could grant that to other people.

BTW - My views on Iraq are simple. I believe that on balence the decicion to intervene was correct. I am concerned that there appears to be a lack of a coherent exit statedgy - No plan B !

I am very concerned that there appears to be a brakdown of disipline amoungst elements, and I will put it no greater or lesser than that, in the Armed Forces giving rise to acusations of torture.

I do not take the view, expressed in some quarters, of a Knee Jerk reaction that everything The US of A / Uk does is automatically bad.

Perhaps you should put that in your notebook.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:37 PM

As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty.
----

But that was not the answer to the question asked.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:40 PM

Example:
"I appreciate that you state that "I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!"
One sentence later you say:
"Perhaps you could grant that to other people."

I give up, Gareth....

I will only reply to you on a 'need to' basis from now on...

That's for the notebook, too....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:47 PM

If they are not POWS, they are civilians and are innocent until proven guilty.
-----

   Maybe they were foreign fighters coming in from Syria, Iran, and
   Jordan.

-----
Two Bears doesn't seem to understand that subjecting human beings to degradation is unnaceptable to civilized people.
-----

   I do understand it, and I said it was shameful the way they were
   treated.

----
Two Bears commented: "Lots of children was abused. I sure was."
I think that Two Bears needs to realize that that this is not normal.
I'm sorry it happened to you Two Bears. It wasn't your fault. You need to get some help.
-----

   I know the abuse I received was not my fault.
   I do not need help.

   I understand that some of these schools run by some of the
   mosques, and turn normal healthy children into cold blooded
   killers, and instructed to blow themself up to kill the infidels.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:56 PM

"Maybe they were foreign fighters coming in from Syria, Iran, and Jordan.

Not the thieves and the 'common criminals'
They're just Iraqis, Two_bears.
You can't put everyone under the category 'enemy combatants'

You would complain if they did it to you.
Why can you not complain when they do it to the least of your bretheren?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:05 PM

Two Bears is a great guy, and a good friend of mine, but he's a bit

   Thanks for the kind words LH; my brother

addled when it comes to politics...in my opinion. :-) This is the

   Opinions vary.

People's views about reality generally get set very early in life, so if one grows up in a circumstance where "conservatives" are seen as good guys and "liberals" are seen as bad guys...well, one just keeps on seeing it that way.

   Not quite LH.

The coalition doesn't have enough soldiers on the ground to properly police Iraq, its soldiers are inadequately trained and lack

   I will agree completely. They also need real soldiers instead of
   the weekend warrior (national guard) that were trying to run that
   prison.

experience, and they have been pre-conditioned by several years of propaganda to hate Muslims. The fact that they then arrest the wrong

   That is not so. In Bosnia; the U.S army were protecting the
   muslims from the Serbs.

They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

   We will NEVER agree on that.

   There were several terrorist training vases in Iraq. There were
   several Palestinian terrorist training bases, and hundreds of
   suicide belts found. In Salman Paq; there was an Al Qaeda
   terrorist base. and they even had a Boeing 727 fuselage to train
   hijackers.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:23 PM

Don't worry Jim Lad I'll be there wiping your bottom and pointing out your errors.

You stick to your truths, and i will stick to the real truths.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:34 PM

And I'll be there shitting all over you, boyo

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:48 PM

"...there was an Al Qaeda terrorist base..."

Ansar al-Islam was a group with Al Queda links, based in a part of North East Iraq in between the Kurdish autonomous area and the Iranian border. This area had been completely outside the conmtrol of the regime in Baghdad for many years. And Ansar al-Islam was very hostile to Saddam (and vice versa).

Saddam's regime was a very nasty one. But not to be confused with Al Qaeda, or with those who had attacked the USA at any time. (Though efforts were made by the US government to confuse them at part of the run-up to the war.)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 07:17 PM

Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 May 04 - 08:20 PM

Ya know. It's just so hard to feel sorry for the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:35 PM

Jim and Gareth you two stop arguing and agree to ignore each other!

Two bears : They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

   We will NEVER agree on that.

I think you need to know your Hero, George Bush, Invaded for one reason, OIL! and nothing else, There were no WMD's or links to terror. And as for him wanting to stop Saddam He couldn't give a flying Fuck for the Iraqi people! They hate him and unfortunatly all Americans because of his Forign policys! Bad foregn policies is why those people flew those planes into those buildings!

If you think they did the right thing why are all those American Soldiers dieing?

George Bush hasn't attended a single soldiers Funeral because he doesn't want to be Photographed with a coffin before the election!

You need a new hero!
May I sugest Little Hawk? As far as I know he is not a mad power hungry lunitic that doesn't care who dies!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:39 PM

If it was the precious Private Jessica Lynch that was photographed Nakid all the USA would want to go in with Bombs and kill the torturing Bastards but since the tables are turned they were just playing a prank?
Whatever!

Raptor

PS 100th post HA!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:41 AM

s6k is going to be so ticked that you grabbed that 100th post, Raptor. :-)

There are terrorist camps in the USA too, Two Bears, funded by your taxes...and their graduates are working all over the World every day to kill people, subvert democratically elected governments, and launch illegal invasions of small countries. Their graduates murdered people in Central America all through the 80's...thousands and thousands of people. Their graduates trained the Mujahedin Muslin fanatics in order to kill Russians and funded the Taliban until they didn't need the Taliban any longer. Their graduates worked hand in hand with Osama Bin Laden and were his good buddies. Their graduates assassinated Salvador Allende in Chile and more recently arranged a coup against Chavez in Venezuela. They armed Saddam to kill Iranians. They betrayed the Shiites after the Gulf War in '91, and left them to be slaughtered by Saddam. They tried on numerous occasions to assassinate Castro, but those attempts all failed. They managed death squads in El Salvador and fought the dirty war in Nicarauga and trained the Contras. They also trained people in the goon tactics that have more recently been used on Iraqi prisoners, and prisoners in Guantanamo.

They are terrorists, funded and trained by America. Some of the people they are fighting against are also terrorists. I do not approve of terrorists regardless of which side of the issue they happen to stand on. As an American, I think you should be more concerned about the fact that your government is FUNDING terrorism on an ongoing basis and has been doing so for decades.

Accordingly, the War on Terrorism is as big a phony joke as the War on Drugs. The Right Hand of America strikes out at terrorism while the Left Hand funds it. (I don't mean Right and Left in the usual political sense when I say that...) It's gross hypocrisy, and sheer pragmatism at its unholy worst.

Bush may believe he's fighting terrorism, but his government is also committing terrorism at the same time. I'm not really surprised that he can't see it. After all, Osama and his people think of themselves as freedom fighters, so why wouldn't Bush think the same way? It's a common delusion of terrorists to imagine themselves as freedom fighters....just depends whose freedom to do what, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:03 AM

Two Bears:

What you said was

"Most of the attacks against the Iraqi civilians, and Iraqi police,
   and U.S, military; are caused by foreign fighters from Syria,
   Jordan, and assorted terrorists.

   "How should they be categorized?"

& I said "As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty. "

That means they are not "foreign fighters from Syria, Jordan, and assorted terrorists" just because someone says so. Even if it's GWB that says so. It must be proved. And when it is proved they should not be treated as these men were. They should be treated as human beings.

I am talking morality and decency rather than law. I'm sure that anything Hitler wanted was legal in Nazi Germany, but a lot of it was wrong.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:33 AM

"how would YOU get the information you needed? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence?"

any information gathered using coercion techniques is suspect. any investigator knows there are other ways. if you tell someone that if they don't congfess, they'll never be released, they'll think of something to confess to. and whatever they make up will send a lot of people on a wild goose chase.

torture is torture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984

Article 1

1.        For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:22 AM

Jim McCallan 10 May 04 - 07:17 PM

"Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years"

Salman Pak, last time I looked was North of the 33rd parallel, therefore outside the Southern No-Fly Zone.

As to the question asked a little bit earlier on:

"how would YOU get the information you needed? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence?"

How about:
- Remove watch, or any other means of referencing time
- Completely dark room
- Complete and utter silence

Place person to be interrogated under the above circumstances for approximately 3 - 6 hours, then just sit him down and talk to him quietly and rationally - it's amazing how effective it is.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:48 AM

Hi Teribus.

If you go to this page Here (it is a 'Flash' presentation by The Guardian), click on 'Weapons Sites => Biological. Salman Pak looks as if it is below the 33rd.

I could be thinking of a different Salman Pak, though.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:02 PM

Little Hawk - good post! You're right! America has had a double standard for a long time. Nuclear wearpons, weapons of mass destruction, and terrorism are all part of American Imperialism. But its O.K. because they have God on their side and they're fighting for democracy, right? I see that the majority of the American public are still standing behind Bush. When will they wake up?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:20 PM

dianavan - beware the polls!
The majority of the American public didn't vote for him.
Who did the polls ask and where? I check the CNN polls and participate but even there I can log off the site, come back and vote again and again and again.

We're awake! And even some of the moderate republicans are starting to awaken!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 May 04 - 02:08 PM

This indicates that Kerry and Bush are about even, with 47% (+/-2) each. That is, unless Nader really runs, in which case Bush has a 2-4% lead. It looks as if 3/4 of the Nader votes come from the Kerry column. This CBS poll specifically on the war indicates that Bush's support level is well below 50% and falling steadily.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 May 04 - 02:32 PM

why do I get the feeling that this is an episode of Max Headroom........

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Because it is Metchosin. Because it is.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:40 PM

Saddam's regime was a very nasty one. But not to be confused with Al Qaeda, or with those who had attacked the USA at any time. (Though efforts were made by the US government to confuse them at part of the run-up to the war.)
-----

Could you pass me some of what you've been smoking?

Embedded reporters with the U.S. Military showed the assorted PLO terrorist training bases and the suicide belts that was found in IRAQ.

I mentioned the Al Qaeda training base in Salman Paq IRAQ with the wingless fuselage of a Boeing 727 jet where terrorists were trained to hijack jets.

The terrorist Abu Nidal died or was killed in Baghdad, Iraq. If memory serves this was the leader of the thugs that hijacked the Achile Lauro ship on the high seas.

Saddam Hussein gifted families of Palestinian homicide bombers with $25,000.

How many bricks have to fall on your head before you understand that Iraq was a supporter of terrorism including Al Qaeda!

Saturday Al Qaeda decapitated Nick Berg from Philadelphia allegedly because of the abuse in the prison.

Al Qaeda decapitated Daniel Pearl just because he was Jewish.

These terrorists commit atrocity after atrocity, and the U.S. News Media will not show them, The News Media will not even replay the attacks on the twin towers where 3000+ INOCENT civilians were murdered!

My good friend Little Hawk alleged that I was swayed by propoganda.

Not so. There is PLENTY of propoganda in the news media to blame the western victims instead of the terrorists, then when Americans do something shameful and stupid; the news media is the first to blame the abusers.

The news media do their best to have Donald Rumsfeld step down, and do not ask for the woman brigadeer general (Kopenski (Not sure of the spelling)) that was in charge of the prison to even be punished!

I say investigate the matter of the prison, and the ones that are guilty, or ordered the shameful treatment should be punished (no matter how high it goes) but use logic and reason instead of blind emotion, and blame the ones that are really guilty!

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:45 PM

Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years
-----

What is your problem? Unable to see the forest for the trees?

It was STILL under the rule of Saddam Hussein.

The fact there was a no fly zone did not mean that Hussein could not be aware of the training base. They were still free to move about via car, or truck.

The reason for the no fly zones was to prevent Hussein from attacking the Moslems in the south, and the Kurds in the north.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:45 PM

From an earlier thread

"But do all of my friends in the Mudcat who have so visciously attacked the United States Volunteer soldier feel that it is better to shoot the enemy while hiding behind civilian clothes, burn alive the wounded, drag the bodies through the streets and hang the remains from a bridge."

Now the Al Quieda Terrorists have beheaded a man on video and shown it around the world. They say this is in reparation for some brainless GI MP's making men stand naked in front of each other while an unvieled woman looks on smiling. The say it is revenge for hooding a man and telling him he will be electrocuted if he sits down. I imagine it is also revenge for beating someone, or several someones. I supose it is also revenge for being Christian on Muslin soil.

They didn't swing an axe against his haed or use a broad sword in one fell swoop. They held his head to one side and sawed it off while the American screamed and Arabs ran video feed to the world.

I image it is all fair now isn't it?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:18 PM

Two bears : They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.
----

   Wrong Raptor; my brother.

   Do you remember the Bush Doctrine (they would attack the
   terrorists, and the regimes that supported the terrorists)

   In an earlier message; I listed several documented facts that Iraq
   was supporting assorted branches of terroists including the PLO
   and Al Qaeda

   We will NEVER agree on that.

I think you need to know your Hero, George Bush, Invaded for one reason, OIL! and nothing else, There were no WMD's or links to

   George Bush is NOT my hero. He has done several things I detest.

   He signed the Patriot Act 1&2, and he has done several other
   things that infringes on our bill of rights.

   In another thread; I wrote that there were at least 1,000 people I
   would vote for before I would vote for Bush (I included several
   women like Margaret Thatcher, Condaleeza Rice, Jean Kirkpatrick,
   etc.

   Unfortunately; I have the choice of tweedle dee, terrdle dum, and
   tweedle dumber, etc.

   Saddam Husseein HAD WMDs. He used them against Iran, He used them
   against the Kurds, etc.

   We will see whether the invasion of Iraq was for oil or not.

   If it was for oil; then why didn't the U.S. Occupy Saudi Aarbia,
   or keep Kuwait when they had the choice, and furthermore; why   
   didn't the U.S. invade Argentina (it would be a lot more
   convenient that getting oil from the middle East), or gasp; why
   doesn't the U.S. get their own oil (the thousands of wells in the
   U.S. that have been capped, pr dril for oil in the Anwar (that
   would replace ALL of the oil we get from Saudi Arabia for more
   than 30 years!

   Tell a lie loud enough, and often enough; and people believe it is
   the truth!   

George Bush hasn't attended a single soldiers Funeral because he doesn't want to be Photographed with a coffin before the election!

   Do you have any concept regarding the security of the president?

   It is a FACT that He HAS visited the families of the soldiers, and
   has visited injured soldiers.

   Can you imagine the chaos it would cause to force the attendees of
   the funeral to be wanded for weapons, then have armed Secret
   service agents protecting him from threats inside and outside the
   funeral home or church. It would be a real feeding frenzy for the
   news media.

   May I remind you that when President Clinton had his hair cut
   aboard Air force one that ALL landings and take offs at the air
   port came to a complete halt for 90 minutes.

You need a new hero!

   G.W. Bush is NOT my hero. I have several heroes.

   My numerous teachers.
   You for your courage
   Daylia for the work she has done on herself in the past year.
   Condaleeza Rice for her intelegence.
   Joseph Lieberman for understanding evil when he sees it.
   John F. Kenedy for the courage to stand up to the USSR in the
      Missle Crisis.
   Franklin Delano Roosevelt for his leadership after Pearl Harbor
      was attacked, and leading the U.S. Through the Great Depression

   And lots more.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:18 PM

As I said before, I am opposed to terrorism and wanton brutality regardless of who commits it: whether it is the USA, the Iraqis, the Israelis or the Palestinians. The entire Muslim world contains quite a few angry people who would be willing to help assist suicide bombers to attack both Israel and the USA. The reasons why go back for over 50 years, and are many. To expect no assistance from Saddam's Iraq to those suicide bombers, when they are getting active assistance from elements in all the other Muslic countries (such as our allies, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan) would be ridiculous. The USA and Britain have been actively engaged in attacking Iraq (directly or indirectly) ever since 1991. Why would the Iraqis not retaliate?

Therefore such aid to a few suicide bombers (but not to 911) is no particular justification for invading Iraq. If anyone were going to be invaded for helping and funding Muslim terrorists and putting 911 into action it would be Saudi Arabia...but the USA does not want that country destabilized because it is their most crucial foreign oil source, and it is the religious centre of Islam. Too hot to handle. Accordingly...no invasion of Saudi Arabia was undertaken.

Your mistake, Two Bears, is in assuming that the War on Terrorism is being fought for good and idealistic reasons...like protecting American citizens and protecting democracy.

It is not. It's being fought mainly for oil, secondarily for other considerations of pure pragmatic power and control in the world. No politician will tell you that, because it wouldn't sound good, that's all! And people would not support it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:18 PM

I remember a saying from my childhood: "two wrongs don't make a right." Revenge, regardless of who is taking it and where it starts, never ends.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:25 PM

They didn't swing an axe against his haed or use a broad sword in one fell swoop. They held his head to one side and sawed it off while the American screamed and Arabs ran video feed to the world.
----

Don:

Thank you for explaining how he died. I had not seen the video yet.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:58 PM

"What is your problem? Unable to see the forest for the trees?"
No, Two_bears, maybe the desert fox could not see the dunes for the sand.
On the other hand, maybe they did, and didn't think it important enough.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:58 PM

You Must remember Two Bears that Jim McCallan only criticises those the Uk and the US of A,

In the past when I have aske him to justify his "statements" he runs away, or resorts to insults.

No doubt whilst telling himself how brave and forthright he is.

No Jim Lad we see the trees and the forests. What a pity you are so blind in your own self esteem that you can not.

No Two Bears, I suggest that you remember the convention, put quotes in italics, and keep pointing out the hypocracy Jim McC and others, (possiblely the same person.

But please no obscenities - We do not wish you sink to thier (his?) level.

Gareth

(More notes for Jim to put in his notebook) - And I'am still waiting for you to justify your previous bragado.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:34 PM

LittleHawk:
"The USA and Britain have been actively engaged in attacking Iraq (directly or indirectly) ever since 1991"

I think the Iraq invasion of Kuwait might have had something to do with that.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:40 PM

Two Bears it doesn't take courage to have your wife die!

Are you comming up for the Ontario meet?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:11 PM

Two bears - I said Saddam had nit attacked America, and your post didn't contain anything to s=uggest that he had.

There is no credible evidence whatsoever linking Saddam's regime with Al Qaeda. And in view of the hatred between those two organisations, it is very unlikely that any will be forthcoming.

My understanding is that even the Bush administration has give up peddling this notion. It's got the same kind of credibility as those stories about how the USA never really sent men to the Moon. By that I mean, a lot of people in the USA appear to believe it, but it's nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:12 PM

You Must remember Two Bears that Jim McCallan only criticises those the Uk and the US of A,

   I found that out already

In the past when I have aske him to justify his "statements" he runs away, or resorts to insults.

   I sent him a PM several days ago, and he has yet to answer.

No Two Bears, I suggest that you remember the convention, put quotes in italics, and keep pointing out the hypocracy Jim McC and others, (possiblely the same person.

   Exactly how does one put the quote into italics. I stopped
   programming about 8 years ago, so I do not do html.

   Send me a PM.

But please no obscenities - We do not wish you sink to thier (his?) level.

   OK. I don't like to use obsenities; but some people are so blind
   They get on my nerves.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:19 PM

Two Bears it doesn't take courage to have your wife die!

   I admire your courage with how you handled the situation.

   You went through a lot there with breaking. This is why you are
   one of my heroes

   I expect to come up to Canada to visit Daylia and LH and several
   friends in the near future; but I'm not exactly sure when that
   will be.

   I would like to meet you even if you want to give me a punch in
   the face. Just allow me to take off my glasses first. OK? ;-)

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:23 PM

"I sent him a PM several days ago, and he has yet to answer."

Anything you want to say to me, you do it here, Two_bears

:-)

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:26 PM

..., and I'll decide whether I answer you, or not....

;-)

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:27 PM

Two bears - I said Saddam had nit attacked America, and your post didn't contain anything to s=uggest that he had.

   You are partially correct in the statement that Saddam did not
   attack the USA.

   Saddam did not attack America; but he DID support terrorists that
   attacked America, and Israel, and he DID violate the 17 UN rulings
   against Iraq over the past 13 years.

There is no credible evidence whatsoever linking Saddam's regime with Al Qaeda. And in view of the hatred between those two organisations, it is very unlikely that any will be forthcoming.

   There are Satellite photos of the Al Qaeda training base in Salman
   Paq. If you cared to look; you could see the Boeing 727 fuselage
   on the ground.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:43 PM

Fair enough, Teribus.. Salman Pak lies at 33°19'26"N 44°10'22"E
And I know that we are too honourable to 'border incurse', however...

Mahalo nui loa, Two_bears, my brother.

Check it out! You are peddling old (and discredited) news.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:29 PM

Check it out! You are peddling old (and discredited) news.
-----

   It is only discredited because the mass media refuses to report an
   Al Qaeda base in Iraq.

   Last Saturday Nick Berg was beheaded by Al Qaeda members in
   revenge for the idiotic behaviour of the prison guards. The News
   media keeps telling us there is no link between A; Qaeda and Iraq.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:06 AM

Mahalo nui loa, Two_bears, my brother.

From the article linked to above

"Current and former intelligence officials now say Zarqawi's links to al-Qaida are more tenuous - the CIA now says Zarqawi considers himself independent of al-Qaida, for example. And while Zarqawi spent time in Iraq, it's unclear whether Saddam's regime simply allowed him to be there or actively tried to work with him."

That was in July 2003.

After we liberated Iraq, every terrorist and his uncle (barring our innocent Iraqi brothers and sisters, of course) lined up to take the sacred suicide belt on behalf of Bin Laden.
It doesn't mean that it was the case before the invasion, however.

You see, Two_bears, contrary to what you may have been told, I am not critical of the UK and the US per se. I'm only critical of them when they don't do things right.

And there has been a lot done wrong, in my opinion, since Feb. 5 2003

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:26 AM

I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either. It was probably all over pretty quick for him, right? I wonder why the terrorists didn't do real damage to the poor young guy? They could have forced him to strip his clothes off or something! That would have been major torture!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:32 AM

I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either. It was probably all over pretty quick for him, right? I wonder why the terrorists didn't do real damage to the poor young guy? They could have forced him to strip his clothes off or something! That would have been major torture!
-----

In the tape; they hack at the man's throat 4 or 5 times, and you hear the man screaming on the first hack or two.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:36 AM

DougR - You are smug and ignorant. It was murder, you asshole!

As far as we know, it was a set-up to deflect the public's attention from the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. We will probably never know the truth but any way you look at it, it was murder. Have a little respect.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:01 AM

"I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either?"

Oh come now, Doug. Just because I'm not 'with you', does not mean that I'm 'against you'. This has been the constant and simplistic accusation from the Bush side all along.
If you knew me, and knew my history, you would never even think that thought.

I'm disgusted by all of it Doug, and I am not looking forward one little bit to being witness to these 'revenge actions' (as we have been promised there will be more), that are going to be foisted upon us.

Dd you not forsee this kind of thing happening?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:18 PM

Why all these personal attacks? Just because people disagree about what's right in a war doesn't mean they should be treated as enemy. Just because someone has said something that, perhaps quite rightly, annoys you is there any value at all in responding in the same terms?

So far as I can see, everybody here is disgusted and appalled at the murder of that young man; and everybody is appalled and disgusted at the vile things (including beating to death) that were done to prisoners in the care of the Americans in Abu Ghraib, .

Does anybody disagree with either part of that? Is there anybody who thinks that any of that was really all right, and all's fair in love and war?

Could I suggest that if anybody feels driven to write an angry post, involving a personal attack on someone posting here, they write it in a file which they save on their computer, and only send it next day, if they feel it still deserves sending.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Steve-o
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:08 PM

All of this "debate" about "concepts" and semantics could only come from people who have never actually fought war on the ground and in the face of an enemy. There are no rules- there is no Geneva Convention- there is nothing that is "all right if it's done this way"- it is all pure BARBARISM. It is ALL torture, it is ALL abuse, it is INHUMANE in the fullest sense of the word. It turns people into animals, pure and simple, and only when you've experienced this can you understand just how ludicrous the pontificating in this "debate" really is. Wake up, people- stop whining about whether it's cruel, who's responsible for it, whether it's a conspiracy or a cover-up, whether you should feel disgusted and appalled, and who's the rightest and the wrongest. It is WAR that is wrong- EVERYTHING ABOUT IT. So go out and do something that gets us closer to eradicating war- not defining it, conceptualizing it, cleaning it up so it is done "right"- DO AWAY WITH IT!!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:25 PM

"All of this "debate" about "concepts" and semantics could only come from people who have never actually fought war on the ground and in the face of an enemy. There are no rules- there is no Geneva Convention- there is nothing that is "all right if it's done this way"- it is all pure BARBARISM. It is ALL torture, it is ALL abuse, it is INHUMANE in the fullest sense of the word. It turns people into animals, pure and simple, and only when you've experienced this can you understand just how ludicrous the pontificating in this "debate" really is."

Good points, Steve-o. I think that the 'general public' is getting an insight into all of that, now; or at least are getting a 'never-before-contemplated' aspect of it.
Trying to convince those who see war as something we should lightly enter in to a state of, is what these discussions are for me, anyway.

If, as you rightly contend, that war is all 'pure barbarism', perhaps this most scrutinised of wars will help people see the sometimes futility of it.

Unfortunately the greatest lessons we learn in life, are learned 'the hard way'

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:38 PM

Kevin - I suggest you ask Jim M why he resorts to p0ersonal attacks - and then doe not reply.

Possibly it is because he can not.

Still we shall see when he gives his real identity away as Fionn did.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:42 PM

Two Bears I would not like to punch you in the face Talk to Little Hawk you got me all wrong Brother!

I respect you a great deal!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 07:53 PM

Quite right, Steve-O...War is pure barbarism. All of it.

Beardedbruce, you wrote:

LittleHawk:
"The USA and Britain have been actively engaged in attacking Iraq (directly or indirectly) ever since 1991"

I think the Iraq invasion of Kuwait might have had something to do with that.

The Iraq invasion had to do with a number of things, and it prompted a thoroughly effective direct response by the USA and a coalition of other countries in 1991...the Gulf War. That direct response cost Saddam all of his air force and the larger part of his army, and his forces were ejected from Kuwait. That was a huge defeat for Saddam and his military never recovered from it.

You don't think that's enough? Is it really necessary to continue persecuting an already crippled country with an impotent military and starving its people for another 12 years or so, and bombing it now and then throughout that period, and dominating 3/4 of its airspace?

Good Lord, man, maybe you feel we should still be bombing Japan too? (I'm being facetious...)

Look, it's about oil, not about righting wrongs done to poor little Kuwait. :-) The USA doesn't give a shit about the Kuwaitis and their corrupt monarchy. Never did. But they give a shit about the oil, brother!

Now, let's go back some in history. Iraq is a country that was arbitrarily created by drawing a bunch of straight lines on a map after the First World War, when Turkey lost their Arabian Empire to the British and French. In so doing, the western politicians created an apparently insoluble mess...because that area is inhabited by 3 groups of people (Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds) who don't get along with each other! It was a recipe for further trouble. The British tried to occupy the area for awhile, but met resistance. Eventually it got too costly and they left. Some time later in the history or Iraq, Saddam Hussein came to power in a coup. Now in the meantime, the British had carved out a little enclave out of former Iraqi territory and CALLED it Kuwait. The Iraqis regarded that as theft of their land, but weren't militarily powerful enough to stop it at the time. Kuwait was formed to provide oil to the British Empire. There was no other reason whatsoever for such a place to exist.

Now, any arbitrarily created entity (like a nation-state or a corporation or a church) starts trying to enlarge and strengthen and perpetuate itself once it's established. It's natural. So the Kuwaitis did that and the Iraqis did that, but the Iraqis looked forward to the day when Kuwait would once again be returned to Iraq.

When Saddam attacked Kuwait, he was doing essentially the same type of thing as:

1. The Argentinians when they occupied the Falklands/Malvinas.
2. The Jews when they occupied Palestine and took it over.
3. The Germans when, in the late 30's, they re-occupied the Rhineland and other enclaves they had formerly managed under the Kaiser.

and so on...

If the Israelis have a moral right to return 2,000 years later to a place and say "This is ours and we shall take it by force." do the Iraqis have a moral right to return to a place a few decades later and say "This is ours and we shall take it by force." ????????

Think about it.

I say that neither one of them had the right to take ANYTHING by force, but notice that there is a double standard being practiced.

The USA supports a Jewish nation taking other people's land by force, but it does not support an Iraqi nation doing so. Why?

Why? Pragmatism. It's got nothing to do with right and wrong. It has to do with strategic interests in the region.

Israel is an ally of the USA. Iraq used to be an ally, but is no longer. It's that simple. If Iraq still was a favoured ally in 1991, then it would have been just too bad for Kuwait...Kuwait would have been the portrayed as the "bad guy" (for human rights abuses or something like that) and Iraq would have been portrayed as the "liberator" in American media.

It's all subjective. It's all prejudice. And it's mostly lies. Wars are fought over money, land, oil, gold, market share, military postioning...not over right and wrong.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:06 PM

Foolestroupe, former Senator Bob Kerrey. Different guy.


I had a number of things to say here, ready to go but McGrath's post dissuades me. Thanks, Kevin. Even though I think that several here are ill informed and rude and condescending and arrogant. But that is just my opinion. But at least I didn't say it. :)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:18 PM

LH, that is interesting folklore, but not historically accurate. Iraq and Kuwait both existed as discrete entities long before WW1, Iraq as part of the Ottoman Empire and Kuwait as one of the Trucial States. History sites are here: Kuwait and Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 04 - 09:15 PM

I was thinking of quite a few people, Gareth. I see people trading verbal punches, and I can't say I'm too interested who started it. It takes both of them to keep it going.

In the big world when people are in a fight, there's a sense in which they are trapped into continuing it to a finish of some kind. But that just doesn't apply on the net. It has to be that people only keep making personal attacks and counter attacks because they enjoy it. Which is OK when it's in play, but gets ugly when it's for real.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,gil gundayao
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:02 AM

The measure we give, will be the measure we receive. We should not to others what we should not want others do unto us. For it is likewise written in the law: "up to the last drop of blood", it shall be accounted for!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 04 - 01:41 AM

LittleHawk:
"You don't think that's enough? Is it really necessary to continue persecuting an already crippled country with an impotent military and starving its people for another 12 years or so, and bombing it now and then throughout that period, and dominating 3/4 of its airspace?
"

When a country has a cease fire, it is a ceasation of active military activity while the terms of peace are being settled. If a country violates the terms of the ceasefire, the war is back on. In 13 years, and 17 UN resolutions (thnx, TwoBears) there was NO PEACE agreement, and the ceasefire terms were violated numerous times. And WE dis not starve the country- the income allowed by legal oil sales would have been enough to feed the population if it had been used for food instead of military supplies and buildup. Why is it that the countries that were selling military hardware to Saddam, instead of food, were against the war? Could it be that they did not want to have a war that might risk their ILLEGAL (by UN resolution) trade?

"When Saddam attacked Kuwait, he was doing essentially the same type of thing as:

1. The Argentinians when they occupied the Falklands/Malvinas.
2. The Jews when they occupied Palestine and took it over.
3. The Germans when, in the late 30's, they re-occupied the Rhineland and other enclaves they had formerly managed under the Kaiser."

Let us be clear about this- Israel was created by the UN as a sop to the concience of the European Nations- Rather than try to deal with the Jews after WWII, they gave them a territory that Great Britain had taken from the Ottoman Empire in WWI. It was formed under UN mandate- The Arabs then attacked it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:19 AM

Two Bears I would not like to punch you in the face Talk to Little Hawk you got me all wrong Brother!

   That is good news. Thanks.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: kendall
Date: 13 May 04 - 06:58 AM

...don't try to understand them, just rope, throw and brand them.. (From the tv series, Rawhide)

Well folks, that may work with cows, but cows don't shoot at us.

In our culture, what was done to those prisoners was not torture, BUT, in THEIR culture, is WAS! And that is what they are reacting to.
We are so damed ethnocentric, we are blind to the mores' of other cultures, and this is an excellent example of our ignorance.
Bush promised no more torture chambers such as Saddam had...oh yes, another lie.

Doug, and others who support this barbarism, what would you do to end this conflict? I hope you are not stupid enough to think a military victory is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Steve-o
Date: 13 May 04 - 11:52 AM

Well, Kendall, unfortunately you haven't got it yet. The point of it WAS torture, and they well understood the "mores" of the Muslim culture. This is not an example of ignorance, it's an example of what real live war leads people to do- try and hurt the enemy where he hurts most and easiest. Not pretty, but it is what happens. And BTW, please don't equate "humiliation and degradation" with what went on in Saddam's torture chambers- regardless of cultural differences, they just plain ain't the same! Ending this conflict is simple- turn over the reins of government and beat an immediate retreat home. Too bad there are so many egos at the top of the pile....this probably won't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:52 PM

Talk about brazen- think it will work?

http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1147101&l=35245

(You don't have to sign up- the article is on the same page)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:16 PM

I think beating someone to death would count as torture in any culture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:12 PM

Kevin. Sorry - I take your previous point.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 14 May 04 - 12:16 AM

An Article On Sensory Deprivation

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 14 May 04 - 01:35 AM

Well, Kendall, unfortunately you haven't got it yet. The point of it WAS torture, and they well understood the "mores" of the Muslim culture. This is not an example of ignorance, it's an example of what real live war leads people to do- try and hurt the enemy where he hurts most and easiest. Not pretty, but it is what happens. And BTW, please don't equate "humiliation and degradation" with what went on in Saddam's torture chambers- regardless of cultural differences, they just plain ain't the same! Ending this conflict is simple- turn over the reins of government and beat an immediate retreat home. Too bad there are so many egos at the top of the pile....this probably won't happen.

Humiliation as went on in the prison under the U.S. supervision; in NO WAY equivocates as torture.

When Saddam Hussein was in charge; there was rape rooms to assault women, used a drill to drill through a person's hand, cut their tongue out, ground them to bits while they were alive, and on and on and on.

Then you have alleged Muslims that chant a chant meaning "God is Great" while they are hacjing of an American's head, and he is screaming for about 20 second.

What the Muslims suffered under the U.S. soldiers in prison is not mush more than a drop in the bucket when compared to the tortures above.

That the U.S. did to the muslim prisoners is absolutely shameful, and the ones that did the acts, and the ones that told them to do that should all be court martialed andgives 10 years in Levenworth (no matter how high up the chain of command it goes.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:11 AM

Peter K (Fionn) 13 May 04 - 09:31 PM, gives a number of examples of terrorism being neutralised:

Northern Ireland - Where the efforts of John Hulme and Seamus Mallin brought about the chain of events that led to the GFA and two referenda. One in Northern Ireland and another in both Eire and Northern Ireland. The results of which, in the former, clearly stated that the people of Northern Ireland expressed the wish that the future of Northern Ireland should be decided peacefully and politically, by the wish of the majority. In the latter, it showed by a resounding majority that the general concensus of the entire population of Ireland was that the use of violence to promote any political agenda, including the unification of Ireland, was not acceptable - i.e. the OIRA, PIRA, etc, had absolutely no mandate. The Nationalists/Republicans had a clear goal, it was therefore possible to negotiate because there was a basis. Factions such as the Real IRA and Continuity IRA, did not accept the situation and still continue "The Struggle" against the wishes and desires of the majority of people in Ireland.

South Africa - Again the ANC had a political agenda and a clear goal, therefore a negotiated settlement was possible and preferable to all parties involved.

Kenya - same again

Egypt/Israel - same again, although in this case factions within Egypt still do not accept the peace accord or the treaty signed.

Compare the clearly attainable aims, identifiable in the above examples to the declared aims of Al-Qaeda - where is the basis for negotiation?

By the bye, Peter name calling does nothing to promote the points you wish to make.

In the Stage Manager's post reference is made with regard to the practice of "demonising" and "dehumanising" your enemy. That may well have been generally true across the board in the past. In the two conflicts that I have experienced in my time in the services, from our (serving members of the armed forces) perspective and briefings, there was never any attempt, on the part of anyone, to either demonise or dehumanise our enemy, to do so is a grave mistake as it does lead to underestimation and overconfidence, which is then reflected in losses taken by your own side.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,We haven't gone away, you know
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:24 AM

Ah-ah, Teribus. You meant to say:

"Where the efforts of John Hume and Gerry Adams brought about the chain of events that led to the GFA"

Incredibly widely accepted fact, my good man.
Surprised at you for that!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:44 AM

Naw - GUEST,We haven't gone away, you know - 14 May 04 - 03:24 AM.

I'll stand by what I said in my original post - John Hulme and Seamus Mallin - they started the process and convinced Gerry Adams to put the idea to his side. He (Gerry Adams) did manage to do that, assisted by Martin McGuiness, and a proposal was put forward by the PIRA and that led to Major's Downing Street Declaration and the train was put in motion that ultimately resulted in the GFA.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:50 AM

Peter K (Fionn) 13 May 04 - 09:31 PM, gives a number of examples of terrorism being neutralised:

Northern Ireland - Where the efforts of John Hulme and Seamus Mallin brought about the chain of events that led to the GFA and two referenda. One in Northern Ireland and another in both Eire and Northern Ireland. The results of which, in the former, clearly stated that the people of Northern Ireland expressed the wish that the future of Northern Ireland should be decided peacefully and politically, by the wish of the majority. In the latter, it showed by a resounding majority that the general concensus of the entire population of Ireland was that the use of violence to promote any political agenda, including the unification of Ireland, was not acceptable - i.e. the OIRA, PIRA, etc, had absolutely no mandate. The Nationalists/Republicans had a clear goal, it was therefore possible to negotiate because there was a basis. Factions such as the Real IRA and Continuity IRA, did not accept the situation and still continue "The Struggle" against the wishes and desires of the majority of people in Ireland.

South Africa - Again the ANC had a political agenda and a clear goal, therefore a negotiated settlement was possible and preferable to all parties involved.

Kenya - same again

Egypt/Israel - same again, although in this case factions within Egypt still do not accept the peace accord or the treaty signed.

Compare the clearly attainable aims, identifiable in the above examples to the declared aims of Al-Qaeda - where is the basis for negotiation?

By the bye, Peter name calling does nothing to promote the points you wish to make.

In the Stage Manager's post reference is made with regard to the practice of "demonising" and "dehumanising" your enemy. That may well have been generally true across the board in the past. In the two conflicts that I have experienced in my time in the services, from our (serving members of the armed forces) perspective and briefings, there was never any attempt, on the part of anyone, to either demonise or dehumanise our enemy, to do so is a grave mistake as it does lead to underestimation and overconfidence, which is then reflected in losses taken by your own side.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,We haven't gone away, you know
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:51 AM

Wrong Teribus. Go check your sources!

Even Trimble was forced to concede as much in an interview with Jonathan Mann after they won the peace prize.
Mann from CNN queried him as to why he got the prize instead of Adams. Hume said Adams actually kicked the whole process off.

To the victors the history, is that it?

You talk the greatest amount of bollocks sometimes, Teribus.
You realize this, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 03:52 AM

Apologies for repeating that last post - hit the wrong key.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 04 - 06:04 AM

Teribus yer head's full of wee doors, and they're all bangin'

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 14 May 04 - 06:20 AM

GUEST,We haven't gone away, you know - 14 May 04 - 03:51 AM

Thanks for the correction re Hulme/Adams. I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,We haven't gone away, you know
Date: 14 May 04 - 06:29 AM

Fair play to you

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Steve-o
Date: 14 May 04 - 11:33 AM

"Humiliation as went on in the prison under the U.S. supervision; in NO WAY equivocates as torture." BUT...."That the U.S. did to the muslim prisoners is absolutely shameful, and the ones that did the acts, and the ones that told them to do that should all be court martialed andgives 10 years in Levenworth (no matter how high up the chain of command it goes." Yessir, there's a piece of logic for ya! Yoo hoo, Boo Bear, this is WAR.....people whose job it is to kill and maim other people who are trying to do the same to them. Get the concept?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:19 PM

"in NO WAY equivocates as torture"

I think the word you are after there is equate - but "equivocate" is quite a good word to use when you are trying to argue that what happened in Abu Ghraib was not torture. (And remember, there are recorded cases of two prisoners dying in the course of interogation by US operatives in the prison.)

However there appears to be evidence that some of what appears to be pre-interrogation softening-up shown in the pictures, really needs to be seen in the context of what happens in US prisons back home - there's a passage in this story that is relevant here:

"A chilling story in last Saturday's New York Times made plain that the humiliations depicted in the Abu Ghraib pictures are regularly practised in domestic American prisons. The reporter, Fox Butterfield, dug up examples of hooding, stripping naked and forced sex inflicted by guards in jails in Arizona, Utah, Virginia and Texas. At least two of the American soldiers due to be court-martialled are reservists who are "corrections officers" in civilian life, and it seems likely that in Baghdad they were indulging in sadistic amusements perfected back home in the US."

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:28 PM

Well, gol danged...

Okay, lets say I own a trucking company and I put an ad in the newspaper that reads, "Truck drivers needed, no experience necessary" and so I get a few folks who not only haven't driven a truck but don't even know how to drive anything for that matter. But I hire 'em and give 'um keys and tell 'um to have at it... And, well, they try they end up crashing the trucks is a short order.

Who is responsible?

Okay, so the DOD sends kids over to act as jail guards who know nuthin' about the Geneva Convenetion, let alone the rules???

Who is responsible?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 04 - 07:45 PM

It's not just a matter of "bad apples" and lack of training, as this story from this morning's Guardian illustrates. US forces were taught torture techniques:

"The attitude that was communicated started from the highest levels and was sent on down the chain. It created an overall climate in which adversaries were dehumanised, the distinction between suspect and known perpetrator was effaced, and the overall message was that international law or domestic niceties get in the way of doing quote 'what we had to do', said Rosa Ehrenreich Brooks, formerly a senior adviser on human rights to the State Department. "When that is the message from the top it enables all sorts of bad behaviour."

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 14 May 04 - 10:16 PM

"Again the ANC had a political agenda and a clear goal, therefore a negotiated settlement was possible and preferable to all parties involved."

What is it you don't get about the goal of middle east terrorists? The goal seems to be convincing the U.S. to stay out of the Middle East and their business. I think they also disdain our so-called "democracy" and resent the Christian missionaries who are trying to enlighten them. Basically, they do not want to be occupied.

McGrath - excellent post. "When that is the message from the top it enables all sorts of bad behaviour."

Rumsfeld sent that message in 2002 when he declared that the prisoners were not POWS but were enemy combatants, hence there were no rules.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 May 04 - 12:41 AM

I think the word you are after there is equate - but "equivocate" is quite a good word to use when you are trying to argue that what happened in Abu Ghraib was not torture. (And remember, there are

I'm sorry you are unable to understand words with more than two sylables.

recorded cases of two prisoners dying in the course of interogation by US operatives in the prison.)

I am aware of that. But throwing statements out there (such as yours) does not help much. Provide us with names dates, whether they were being questioned by U.S. Military, or were they being questioned by the CIA? We need to find out who killed the people. then punish those that are guilty.

Since you insist on throwing charges around; the onus is on you to provide useful so we can do research, and if it is true; comntact the White House, the congress members, etc to get those activities stopped, and punish the guilty persons.

However there appears to be evidence that some of what appears to be pre-interrogation softening-up shown in the pictures, really needs to be seen in the context of what happens in US prisons back home - there's a passage in this story that is relevant here:

Some people are just cruel.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 May 04 - 12:53 AM

What is it you don't get about the goal of middle east terrorists? The goal seems to be convincing the U.S. to stay out of the Middle East and their business. I think they also disdain our so-called "democracy" and resent the Christian missionaries who are trying to enlighten them. Basically, they do not want to be occupied.

If "Christianity" is offering enlightenment; then most "Christians" need to take the course again.

I had "Christianity" shoved down my throat for the first 18 years of my life, and was SEVERELY beaten up according to the Bible. I attended gathering with most of the "christian faiths, and never saw ANY enlightened people there.

I sat in pipe circle with the Native American Indians (devout pagans), and saw MUCH enlightenment there.

Rumsfeld sent that message in 2002 when he declared that the prisoners were not POWS but were enemy combatants, hence there were no rules.

The Geneva Convention CLEARLY identifies a POW (a soldier for the other country) The people in the prison were NOT members of the Iraqi army so they can NOT be Prisoners of war.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:02 AM

dianavan 14 May 04 - 10:16 PM

"What is it you don't get about the goal of middle east terrorists?"

You obviously have not read, or fully understood, the fatwah(sp?) issued by Osama bin Laden in 1998. Read it, and come back to me with what you see as being the basis for a posible negotiated settlement - other than complete and utter surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 May 04 - 09:13 AM

You obviously have not read, or fully understood, the fatwah(sp?) issued by Osama bin Laden in 1998. Read it, and come back to me with what you see as being the basis for a posible negotiated settlement - other than complete and utter surrender.

Thank goodness and light; another mudcater understands these inhuman terrorists!

From the point of view of Islam; infidels have three choices.

   Conversion ro Islam
   Become a third class citizen (if the infidels stay in their place).
   be killed.

Now most of the Muslim terrorists; they adhere to the Wahabi sect of Islam (which began in Saudi Arabia (if memory serves)). and Osama bin Laden adheres too. you have two choices. Conversion to what THEY believe, or be killed. They also believe it is proper to kill brother and sister muslims if they do not adhere to the most radical tradition in Islam.

These terrorists can not be bargained with, they can not be reasoned with, so in order to protect society from these nut cases is to arrest of kill them.

This is the time to stand against evil instead of surrender to evil as Spain did.

May I remind you that the Muslims that that beheaded poor Mr. Berg WERE Al Qaeda. This has been proven by voice print. How many more inocent human beings will have to be butchered as he was before people will wake up?

Mr. Berg screamed 9 times in 20+ seconds while these human beings that had no souls cut off his head! This was not a beheading. It was cruel and inhumane torture before a beheading took place.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 04 - 11:09 AM

Two Bears:

In general, I agree with your last post.

However, I must argue with the statement "while these human beings that had no souls cut off his head!" If they were human, they should be considered to have souls- perhaps evil ones, but still they have souls.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 04 - 11:43 AM

Also... "It was cruel and inhumane torture.."
Which indeed it was.
(although S O P in 'Is The War Lost' thread reckons that it would have been much better if they had 'killed Berg without boring him first')

But the standing of innocent Iraquis on boxes and telling them if they move, they will die, is not torture.
Neither is beating Iraquis to death, apparently.

I see!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 12:46 PM

The Geneva Covention against torture does not just apply to soldiers, Two Bears - it applies to everyone. Torture is criminal whoever does it, and whoever they do it to. The fact that Nick Berg wasn't a soldier doesn't mean that somehow that it was any less of a crime to butcher him. If the people being tortured in Abu Ghraib were civilians, that doesn't mean it was legal to torture them, either for Saddam or his successors in US unifiorms.

The fact that someone is a Prisoner of War does not mean they have more rights than anyone else - if amnything it mean sthey have fewer rights. It is legal to keep a POW in custiody even if there is no reason to think they ahve done anything wrong. That does not apply in the case of people who are not POWs - there has to be sufficient evidence against them to stand up in court.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 04 - 12:57 PM

Two Bears, there is no reason to be insulting.

To Equivocate is to Lie
To Equate is to Equal

Now, which word did you mean to use?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:14 PM

Strictly speaking "equivocation" isn't direct lying, it's misleading someone into thinking you have said one thing, when you have actually avoided saying it. "Use ambiguous words to conceal the truth" is how my dictionary defines the term.

Politicians do it all the time - Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that women" was a classic case, because he was relying on a definition of "sexual relations" which was a lot narrower than that normally understood by the words.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 02:18 PM

TwoBears - If the Wahabi sect is primarily Saudi, why don't we invade Saudi Arabia to kill or jail them as you suggest? Do you really think we can "stamp out" a religion? There are more of them than there are us.

Everytime we invade a middle-eastern country, we only strengthen their belief system. War is no way to resolve our differences. If the economic situation is dealt with, there will be no need for fanatics on both sides to use their religion as a weapon.

,,,but this is thread creep.

Let me say again, abuse is tortuous.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 May 04 - 03:14 PM

TwoBears - If the Wahabi sect is primarily Saudi, why don't we invade Saudi Arabia to kill or jail them as you suggest? Do you really think we can "stamp out" a religion? There are more of them than there are us.

Do NOT put words in my mouth.

I am NOT saying invade Saudi Arabia, (unless there is evidence there are terrorist training bases in Saudi Arabia), but I WILL say that 15 of the 19 terrorists on 9/11 were saudi. Even Osama bin Laden is Saudi.

I am sick of the U.S labeling Saudi Arabia as our friends and allies

The problem is not with muslimsin general or Saudi's in particular.

The problem is the 1-2% of the muslims that believe it is acceptable to kill ANYONE that doesn't agree with them spiritually.

I get so tired of talk show hosts such as Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Steve Gill, Phil Valentine, ? Mc Connel, (do not remember his first name at the moment), and others complaining about why moderate muslims refuse to publicly denounce the attrocities committed by the terrorists.

If they WERE yo speak out against the terrorists; they would simply wake up DEAD.

I do not blame the moderate muslims for NOT speaking out publicly; but the only we we are going to stop muslim terrorists is to take them prisoner or KILL them.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:37 PM

There have been a great number of muslims who have denounced terrorist atrocities carried out by their co-religionists. However I doubt very much if that would actually ever get a mention on those kind of talk shows, or indeed in quite a lot of other media outlets.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 May 04 - 07:46 PM

There have been a great number of muslims who have denounced terrorist atrocities carried out by their co-religionists. However I doubt very much if that would actually ever get a mention on those kind of talk shows, or indeed in quite a lot of other media outlets.

Would you name some of them?

I do not get my news from those talk shows.

I get my news from the liberal news media, the Internet, andlistening to international broadcasts on shortwave.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 04 - 08:01 PM

For example Haram Imams Denounce Terrorist Attacks
:
"The imams of the two holy mosques in Makkah (Mecca) and Madinah yesterday (May 7th 2004) denounced recent terrorist attacks in the Kingdom and said the terrorists were playing in the hands of Islam's enemies.

"Our hearts tremble... from these criminal acts in Riyadh, from what followed in Yanbu... because they claimed sacred lives," said Dr. Osama Khayyat, an imam at the Grand Mosque in Makkah (Mecca).

Delivering his sermon to the thousands of faithful who thronged the mosque for the Friday prayer, the imam reiterated that Islam prohibits the killing of innocent people.

The imam was referring to the killing of five Western engineers and a National Guard officer in the latest terrorist attack in the industrial city of Yanbu and the suicide bombing of a security forces building in Riyadh, which killed six people, including four security men and a young girl, and wounded 145 others.

And a Google search quickly enough comes up with similar denunciations of atrocities from Muslim religious and community leaders in other countries, including the UK and the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 May 04 - 10:29 PM

The problem is the 1-2% of the muslims that believe it is acceptable to kill ANYONE that doesn't agree with them spiritually.

Similar problem with the "christians" in the current U.S. administration (and their supporters) who believe it is acceptable to kill anyone that doesn't agree with THEM.

We sure have come a long way since 1095.

Best,

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 10:45 PM

Greg F - Thank-you.

As long as we view this conflict as primarily religious, there will be no solution. The public perception of Bush, the crusader against Muslim's who want to erradicate the infidels is a situation where nobody wins and thousands of innocents will die.

This war is about greed and corruption and this war is being orchestrated by multinationals who are making billions.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:32 AM

"The imams of the two holy mosques in Makkah (Mecca) and Madinah yesterday (May 7th 2004) denounced recent terrorist attacks in the Kingdom and said the terrorists were playing in the hands of Islam's enemies.

OK. Maybe that is one. Don't be surprised if he is killed shortly.

Would you E-Mail me that URL so I can read it for myself?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 12:56 AM

Similar problem with the "christians" in the current U.S. administration (and their supporters) who believe it is acceptable to kill anyone that doesn't agree with THEM.

Extremists of ANY faith are dangerous.

I remember Pat Robertson (if I am not mistaken) said about 4-5 years ago that people that saw UFOs should be stoned.

There have been some "Christian" fundamentalists that have killed abortionists. Those nut cases should be charged, tried, and convicted (if they did it)

I am pro life, and abortion and expecially partial birth abortion makes me ill. However; Abortion is legal, and people that break the law should be punished. All I can do is protest against abortion, and educate others in hopes they will see how evil to murder an unborn child that COULD be born as a premie, and adopted.

Are there times I would accept abortions? yes.

1. rape
2. incest

But only in the first trimester.

3. If the mother's life or health was at risk.

after receiving a second opinion. No ONE doctor should be given the authority to decide if an unborn child lives or dies.

When the "Christian" extremists start killing people; I will be in favor of sending them to prison or killing them too.

The Muslim Terrorists are murderous thugs that have NO respect for life. That have already killed more than 3000 Americans on 9/11.

Muslim terrorists have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of human beings around the world in America, Africa, Israel, Bali, and many more!

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:01 AM

As long as we view this conflict as primarily religious, there will be no solution. The public perception of Bush, the crusader against Muslim's who want to erradicate the infidels is a situation where nobody wins and thousands of innocents will die.

This is not a war of "Christianity" against Islam.

This is a war of Muslim Terrorists against the rest of the world.

9/11 was an act of war on America and the rest of the civilized world, by murderous thugs

There IS a solution. Arrest or kill the Muslim terrorists that are trying to hijack the religion of Islam!

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:18 AM

Diana; There is another solution; so the religion of Islam to stand up and arrest or kill the terrorists that act in the name of the Islam religion.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:32 AM

Sadamm Hussein used to do that, Two_bears.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:08 AM

Interesting in retrospect, that one of the more common quips amongst the Iraqis on the streets of Baghdad, after the Americans rolled in was, "Out goes the apprentice, In comes the master".

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:15 AM

Sadamm Hussein used to do that, Two_bears.

Is the sky blue in your world?

1. Saddam Hussein paid $25,000 to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers.

2. Saddam Hussein allowed an Al Qaeda terrorist training camp to operate in Iraq.

3. Saddam Hussein permitted Palestinian terrorists to train in Iraq.

You simply do not get it.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:25 AM

Nah Two_bears, you don't get it my brother. If you add up all the reasons the administration has advanced for going after Saddam, the only thing left to say is "Damn right, we need to take out Pervez Musharraf right now!" Musharraf has destroyed democracy in his country, he's backing terrorists in India.... our democratic ally. His CIA was hand-in-bloody-glove with Al Qaeda, his military is riddled with militant Islamists, his madrasas teach hatred of the West, his heroes are Napoleon and Hitler, and he not only has nukes... he's threatened to use them.

Just shades of grey, Two_Bears.
Shades of grey..........

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:20 AM

The amount of rasism on this thread makes me sick!

Labling people as inhuman, subhuman, whatever, because they were born into a religion they think is the best and follow what they were brought up thinking is the way to deal with people they are comvinced are "evil" themselves.

The Muslims believe George Bush And his Troops of "mindless followers" are evil subhuman monstars who should Die!

I can't hate my Father in law because he was in the hitler youth. He didn't know better. He was taught from infancy on to trust the powers that be!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 May 04 - 09:29 AM



Sorry Raptor; my brother; but what label would you apply to people that hack off a man's head while he is conscious, It takes them more than 20 seconds to do it, and the victom screams NINE TIMES.

They did not want a quick death, they wanted the poor man to undergo horrendous torture before he actually expired.

I will stand by my statements they are inhuman or subhuman. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I can't hate my Father in law because he was in the hitler youth. He didn't know better. He was taught from infancy on to trust the powers that be!

Of course you can not hate you father-in-law. He did not really have a choice.

I do not have a problem with 98% of the world's Muslims. I do have problems with the Muslim terrorists that are trying to hijack the religion of Islam.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:32 AM

Two Bears you don't think the Americans are torturing any prisoners?

Does that not make them Subhuman too?

Bush executed hundreds of prisoners while he was govener of texas so he's subhuman!

Or is it subhuman to do it in the open in front of cameras to make a point as apposed to in the confines of a prison in guantonamo or Texass?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:36 AM

Racism is hard to admit!

But without it there would be a lot less war!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 18 May 04 - 04:24 PM

Does that not make them Subhuman too?

Aloha nui loa Raptor; ny brother.

There are reports of the CIA killing Muslims, and in my opinion the ones that kill the Muslims are inhuman too.

Racism is hard to admit!

I will not admit to racism where none exists.

I would like to remind everyone that a shell filled with Sarin was exploded yesterday in Iraq and two U.S, Troups was affected. I did not report this yesterday. I wanted to wait for positive identication was made.

I have been told for about a year "There are no WMDs in Iraq" Well Sarin (SP) is a WMD, and i was found in Iraq. Hmmmmm.

I am waiting for the conspiracy theories to explain real WMDs poping up were NONE were supposed to exist.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 May 04 - 05:41 PM

From CNN 5/18/04:

"Chemicals in artillery shell tested

The Iraq Survey Group was conducting tests on an artillery shell believed to have been loaded with the chemicals needed to create the nerve agent sarin.

The 155 mm artillery shell exploded Monday before it could be disarmed. It had been found Saturday near the Baghdad airport.

Kimmitt said U.S. troops who found the device showed "minor traces of exposure" to sarin, but they were quickly treated and released.

The unmarked shell contained two inert chemicals meant to be mixed together when fired from a cannon. As an improvised explosive device, Kimmitt said, the weapon was "ineffective," and he said he doubted whoever had rigged it even knew it contained the potentially lethal chemicals.

No stocks of banned weapons have turned up since the U.S. invasion.

A Pentagon official told CNN that a single field test indicated the shell contained sarin and that a more definitive laboratory test had not been conducted. Initial field tests are often incorrect.

CNN military analyst Ken Robinson noted that more than 15,000 "false positives" for chemical weapons were registered during the first Gulf war."


Let's wait and see Brother Two Bears....

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 18 May 04 - 07:04 PM

Thats weapons of minor irritation!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 18 May 04 - 07:21 PM

One malfunctioning shell doesn't make much of a WMD. The Spokane Spokesman-Review says,

"While the finding of (this shell) is notable it would take an arsenal of such shells to pose a meaningful military threat, arms policy experts said."

I recall a few months back someone in Spokane was accused of intending to poison his wife with the sarin he had made in his kitchen. I don't now how the trial turned out, but there was a fully functioning facility for manufacturing a WMD right here in River City. And the raw material: castor beans.

Don't wait for the UN; send the troops into Spokane now. Shock and awe, by God. Or shuck & jive, whichever.

But I don't think we ought to torture the guy that made it; just abuse him for a while. Leash & banana, like that. Before we convict him. And anyone else that don't look right.

Or we could go after Osama & maybe Kenny-boy Lay.

Unless of course we have some of those well-known Other Priorities.

clint

Sorry, but I get really fed up every now & then.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:36 AM

I wonder if putting an arachnophobe in a confined space with a tarantula would be considered abuse or torture?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:56 AM

Another indication, from today's Guardian, that this kind of thing was a lot more widespread and authorised than they are trying to make out Now Reuters reveal three journalists abused in Iraq. (You need to register to get to this part of the paper.)

And here's a story about how the former commander of Guantanamo Bay, General Baccus was sacked because he tried to stop illegal abuse of prisoners General's sacking cleared way for Pentagon to rewrite rules.

With Gen Baccus out of the way the command of Guantanamo Bay was given to Gen Miller, who is now in command of this kind of thing in Iraq:

...Gen Miller was appointed commander. Under his watch, Guantánamo instituted a "72-point matrix for stress and duress", which the Washington Post said set out a guide for the levels of force that could be applied to detainees. These included hooding or keeping prisoners naked for more than 30 days, threatening by dogs, shackling detainees in positions designed to cause pain, and extreme temperatures.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:54 AM

The unmarked shell contained two inert chemicals meant to be mixed together when fired from a cannon. As an improvised explosive device, Kimmitt said, the weapon was "ineffective," and he said he doubted whoever had rigged it even knew it contained the potentially lethal chemicals.

Sarin is a WMD. the fact that the chemicals did not mix properly to kill hundreds or thousands does not mean it was not a WMD.


No stocks of banned weapons have turned up since the U.S. invasion.

Not yet; but Iraq was not suppoed to have ANY WMDs. So the fact that ONE has been found destroys the Iraqi claims that they did not have ANY WMDs. Iraq is about the size of California, and the troups can not dig up every square inch of the land. Hussein was gound in a 1 meter sized spider hole. weaponized Anthrax to fill a 5 pound bag of sugar would be enough to kill millions if it was released in populated cities like New York or Chicago. How many 5 pound bags of sugar could you hide in the state of California?

A Pentagon official told CNN that a single field test indicated the shell contained sarin and that a more definitive laboratory test had not been conducted. Initial field tests are often incorrect.

I am VERY well aware of false positives. I confronted false positives every day when I worked in the field of Computer Anti-Virus research.

I did not say anything the day the device was found, and the positive field test was reported.

When I wrote the message; another more accurate test HAD been performed, and CONFIRMED the device DID contain Sarin.

CNN military analyst Ken Robinson noted that more than 15,000 "false positives" for chemical weapons were registered during the first Gulf war."

That is true, and that is why I WAITED until the more accurate tests were performed that CONFIRMED Sarin.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:57 AM

Thats weapons of minor irritation!

The fact that the device did not function properly does NOT negate the fact that it WAS a WMD that was not supposed to exist.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:41 AM

Not really, if it was a half baked home made effort as appears to be the case that hardly justifies any sort of "we found WMD" hoohar. After all if a Guy in Spokane can do it with a pile of beans and a kitchen, then so can someone in Iraq with a pile of beans and a Kitchen. And it needn't be any sort of special artillery shell, any casing would suit, the cruder the better.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:46 AM

Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them.

Seems like a flaw in the logic, somehwere.

If the hardware is not the weapon, and the chemicals are not the weapon, what is?

But this thread is drifting. NOTE that the first CONVICTION of a US soldier has happened- WHERE are the fatwahs by the Islamic clergy denouncing the acts of their people????

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 03:38 PM

Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them.

You are absolutely correct Bruce! the shells are NOT filled with the chemicals UNTIL they are ready to be used. The reason for this is that they could go off and kill their own people.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:56 PM

Two Bears says-

"I am VERY well aware of false positives. I confronted false positives every day when I worked in the field of Computer Anti-Virus research.

I did not say anything the day the device was found, and the positive field test was reported.

When I wrote the message; another more accurate test HAD been performed, and CONFIRMED the device DID contain Sarin."


As of today, May 19, 2004, 5:51 EST, the results of any more accurate (than the false-positive-prone) field screening of the supposedly sarin-armed IED have not been publicly reported. So, it is still to early to say it has been "confirmed".

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:49 PM

What I was trying to say is there's a flaw in the concept "Weapons of mass destruction."

According to Our Leaders (& some posters) one malfunctioning sarin shell is a WMD; carpet bombing is not.

Don't see much logic in that.

Which would cause massive destruction in your town & which minor destruction?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:28 PM

What about Depleted Uranium?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:41 PM

what about it?
Spent shell casings - the shell casing has no DP, the projectile has a core of it.

If the next Geneva Convention decides to ban DP, so be it. But for now, they are a little more effective than carpet bombing or nuclear weapons to destroy armour and fortified positions. And a lot more precise.

Depleted Uranium- the radiation level of my old watches is much higher- But I agree they may represent a long-term health risk. Not as much as enriched uranium in "devices", though.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:56 PM

Ahhhhh, The Geneva Convention.....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:05 PM

Yes- You know, the one that prohibits putting military HQ and supplies into schools, hospitals and mosques, and using ambulances to transport military suplies and fighters?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM

The same one....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:16 PM

"what about it?
"Spent shell casings - the shell casing has no DP, the projectile has a core of it."

Where you find a shell casing on a battlefield there is likely a projectile somewhere about. Armies seldom go to battle with empty shells.

You're nitpicking. You know perfectly well what the author of that article was talking about.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:21 PM

BUT not all shell casings have DP- we use a number of different types of ammunition, and the type is indicated by the color or banding on the projectile end.

The article was saying that there were piles of shell casings.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:21 PM

--but I hear that the Geneva Convention is "quaint" nowadays.
Please explain.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:23 PM

I can't- I did not ever say that it was "quaint"

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:29 PM

Well then, in your opinion, might any of those shell casings have contained projectiles with a core of depleted uranium which were then fired in battle?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:26 PM

Thank goodness for your sanity, Clint.

I am astounded that beardedbruce (or anyone else for that matter) attempts to equate empty shell casings and one incident of sarin with stockpiles of WMD.

1. Saddam is no longer 'in charge' of Iraq. Blame those who are there to liberate and restore order. In other words, that was then and this is now. It is no longer Saddam's responsibility.

2. Anyone can make sarin.

3. Shell casings can be make to contain whatever ...

4. How many people have been killed in Iraq by weapons since the invasion of Iraq?

I mean, cmon, if my child is killed; do I really care if its from a WMD or a bullet or a bomb?

I'll say this much for Bush: he has definitely succeeded in scaring beardedbruce out of his wits.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:02 AM

On the TV yesterday, Bush talks about Israel taking more effort to protect innocent lives just after his gunships wipe out 10 members of an innocent wedding party, pot, kettle, black?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,#3
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:42 AM

40 members of an innocent wedding party

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:53 AM

42 to 45. 8 children, 10 women (from my local morning paper).

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:54 AM

dianavan:

"I am astounded that beardedbruce (or anyone else for that matter) attempts to equate empty shell casings and one incident of sarin with stockpiles of WMD."

The empty shell casings were US.
The stockpile of empty WARHEADS were Iraqi.

"1. Saddam is no longer 'in charge' of Iraq. Blame those who are there to liberate and restore order. In other words, that was then and this is now. It is no longer Saddam's responsibility."

The warheads were found during the combat phase: They are examples of the weapons that the Iraqis had avaiable.

"2. Anyone can make sarin."

True- so the empty warheads were significant.

"3. Shell casings can be make to contain whatever ..."

Yes, BUT warheads for chemical weapons are different than ones for DP or HE. Shell casings are the containers that hold the powder used to propel the warhead.

"4. How many people have been killed in Iraq by weapons since the invasion of Iraq?"

By weapons? "

"1. An instrument of offensive of defensive combat; something
   to fight with; anything used, or designed to be used, in
   destroying, defeating, or injuring an enemy, as a gun, a
   sword, etc."



"I mean, cmon, if my child is killed; do I really care if its from a WMD or a bullet or a bomb? "

Nope. So when someone threatens you with such a killing, why do you not want to take steps to protect yourself?

"I'll say this much for Bush: he has definitely succeeded in scaring beardedbruce out of his wits"

No again- it is the terrorists who have attacked us, those who support them, and those who make excuses for them that scare me out of my wits. I grew up during the Cold war- we had drills where we would hide beneath our desks at school, in case of attack. I have faced the fact that the policy of the United States, of MAD, merely means that when I would be killed, a lot of the enemy would, as well. And the whole principle was based on the idea that the other side would value their own lives. In the present situation, while we still have the same deterrence, the other side seems willing to suffer far more than the damage they inflict- this is counter-survival, but it is deadly to us.

The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do- this allows a would-be dictator to assume vast "temporay" powers that threaten our way of life.

The problem is, all of us seem to have different ideas of how to stop the terrorists. Some seem to think that we should give them what they ask for, some that we should kill them all. One has to look at the consequences of one's opinions if one is incorrect: If I give them what they want, and they kill me (and my children, and your children...) anyway, how much better off am I?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:12 AM

"The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do"

Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:19 AM

Ok.

So it is ok for the Iraqis to feel that way, but not for me???

Either I am wrong, in which case, so are the Iraqis, or they are right , in which case so am I.

You have conceded the point to me.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:28 AM

And the last time an Iraqi bombed a wedding you were attending was?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:32 AM

see my posting to carolc about bombimgs, in the Arafat thread. The Muslims claim to be all one gorup, in attacking everything that Israel does: I claim that an attack on a children's birthday party in Israel, because they are in Israel, is an attack on me and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:44 AM

Makes you as bad as they are, justify anything can't you!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:51 AM

No, it makes YOU as bad as they are, supporting the murder of ANY innocent children.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:07 AM

I deplore the bombing of a wedding as senseless, you say its justified on the grounds that something equally horrible happened in Israel. Maybe you should see about a job in one of those prisons looking after Iraqi prisoners, you might be able to do things that make you feel better and I bet you would be able to justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:17 AM

beardedbruce - I can't seem to follow your argument. Maybe if you answered Clint's question, I would be able to understand your reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:28 AM

"I deplore the bombing of a wedding as senseless, you say its justified on the grounds that something equally horrible happened in Israel. "

Read my posts- I NEVER said it was justified. I said that the feelings of the Iraqis, if justified, meant that my feelings were justified.

"Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well. " was what I was commenting on.

"Maybe you should see about a job in one of those prisons looking after Iraqi prisoners, you might be able to do things that make you feel better and I bet you would be able to justify it. "

No, I shall leave that to you, so you can sort out the Jews and let them be abused, and let all the Muslims go, since that seems your goal.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:34 AM

sorry, dianavan- crossposted...

the question he asked was "And the last time an Iraqi bombed a wedding you were attending was? "

I have no idea where it came from


the previous posts were

Bruce : "The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do"

Guest : Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well.

Bruce : Ok.

So it is ok for the Iraqis to feel that way, but not for me???

Either I am wrong, in which case, so are the Iraqis, or they are right , in which case so am I.

You have conceded the point to me.



the first quote was from the posting to you.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Oh you're Jewish, that makes it all right then, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:41 AM

Guest: I am of the human race- what are you?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:57 AM

beardedbruce - I am trying to follow your logic but I am still confused. Will you please answer Clint's question,

"Well then, in your opinion, might any of those shell casings have contained projectiles with a core of depleted uranium which were then fired in battle? "

I, too, endured the air raid drills as a child. Isn't that a bit like comparing apples to oranges?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:18 AM

Yes, some of the shell casings might have- but I conceded that we had used DU projectiles.

In your opinion, might any of the individuals killing civilians be enjoying hurting innocent people?


And on which side is this more likely?


Just because you're paranoid dosen't mean they are out to get you.

The Muslim community, as a group, has been threatening to exterminate the Jews, since at least 1948 ( see their own statements) If what they say is not to be taken seriously, why should we believe it when they say they will allow us to live, as long as we go away? If they were lying in the past, would YOU trust them???

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:37 AM

The US prison guards in the photo's looked pretty happy to me, the ones leering over the corpse of their former inmate seemed to be having more fun than if it was a day out at NACAR.

So if we have to suffer or live in fear then so do they, is that your angle? I also consider myself Human and as such I try to cultivate human qualities such as compassion and understanding rather than hatred,vindictiveness and vengence.

Quote "The Muslim community, as a group, has been threatening to exterminate the Jews, since at least 1948 ( see their own statements) If what they say is not to be taken seriously, why should we believe it when they say they will allow us to live, as long as we go away? If they were lying in the past, would YOU trust them???" so your solution is what exactly? do whatever is required no matter how bloody or repugnant. Come on lets have some more of your tenuous logic please.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:20 PM

As of today, May 19, 2004, 5:51 EST, the results of any more accurate (than the false-positive-prone) field screening of the supposedly sarin-armed IED have not been publicly reported. So, it is still to early to say it has been "confirmed".

I heard a news report on WLAC 1510 AM where the Broadcaster stated categoricaly that another test HAD been performed and it confirmed Sarin before I wrote the message.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:28 PM

On the TV yesterday, Bush talks about Israel taking more effort to protect innocent lives just after his gunships wipe out 10 members of an innocent wedding party, pot, kettle, black?

1. It has been illegal for Iraqi people to shoot guns willy nilly in the air.

2. What kind of nitwit starts firing weapons in a war zone?

3. Who takes AK47s to a wedding?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:34 PM

It is their custom, Two Bears.

Quite a lot of the problem is that we dont respect their customs
Remember what we did to the native Americans

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:34 PM

The business of the torture of people in the custody of America, and the indications that this wasn't just a bunch of sick lowlifes, but that they were doing what was expected of them by some very senior people, seems to have been successfully drifted off stage in this thread, by important stuff that would be better dealt with in a separate thread.

The latest pictures of happy smiling guards giving the thumbs up over the body of a young man who has died under interrogation ought to be on the front pages of all American papers tomorrow. I somehow suspect they won't be.

Here is one of them - and isn't it a lovely smile? No sign of any embarrassment or awkwardness. An all-American girl indeed. And then you look down the photo to why she's smiling so radiantly...

Its been stuck next to a press account of what happened when the US gunships turned up at that wedding party.

The US army spokesman really does have a great way of putting his foot in his mouth: "This operation is not something that fell out of the sky". Except that is exactly what happened - an example of what happens when, in order to minimise risks to military personnel, any effort to minimise the risk to innocent people on the ground is totally disregarded.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:56 AM

When this first started being reported most English langauge news channels that I have been able to see made reports of "torture" by these guards, however, channels like CNBC, CNN and Fox that I saw, kept mentioning something called "physical coercion". Trying to sanitise it for the home audience possibly, because Americans don't torture do they?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:30 AM

As of today, 05/21/04, 8:22 AM, there is no news report anywhere to be found that says that sarin has been confirmed. The last official quote (from Donald Rumsfeld on May 17) says that the declaration of sarin was made based on an unreliable field test. I'm not saying it absolutley won't be sarin, but it is entirely incorrect to say that sarin has been confirmed. if anyone has a link to a report stating that it has been confirmed in the laboratory, I will happily stand corrected.

Don't mean to be a pisser about this Two Bears, but this is exactly how innumerable falsehoods have snuck into our collective recollection of the Iraq invasion - something is trumpeted on page 1, then quietly retracted a week or two later on page 8 or greater (if at all). Remember the poll that showed that regular Fox News viewers believed demonstrable falsehoods at a rate something like three times the rest of the population? Let's not walk away from this little event recalling that sarin has been confirmed until (unless) it actually has.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:05 AM

It is torture. I was trained by the Australian Government to do assessments under the Convention Against Torture (CAT). It's torture.

Freda

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:05 PM

It is their custom, Two Bears.

Just because it is their custom; does not mean it is a good idea.

Quite a lot of the problem is that we dont respect their customs
Remember what we did to the native Americans

The Americans as a whole has worked VERY hard in the Muslim world to be a good neighbor. which means No tobacco, Alcohol, pron magazines, even going so far as to keep women to the base, and not allowing them to drive a car, etc.

I am not sure if the U.S. did attack the wedding party; but if I were flying a helicopter or plane, and someone was firing at me from the ground; I would return fire (whether they had intended to shoot at me or not).

This was a WAR ZONE, and I do not blame soldiers for taking steps to protecting themself.

The Iraqi people KNEW that firing a gun in that matter was ALREADY prohibited.

I am waiting until they find out what really happened.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:10 PM

Don't mean to be a pisser about this Two Bears, but this is exactly how innumerable falsehoods have snuck into our collective recollection of the Iraq invasion - something is trumpeted on page 1, then quietly retracted a week or two later on page 8 or

Then we will have to agree to disagree. The announcer I heard on WLAC 1510 AM out of Nashville, TN CLEARLY started tat a test HAD confirmed the presence of Sarin.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:31 PM

So Two bears, it bad when Native Americans were repressed and treated harshly but ok for a bunch of Arabs half way round the world. I'm sure your people weren't happy to have other peoples standards rammed down their throat at gun point, why should others have to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:57 PM

It has been traditional in the Arab world to fire off guns into the air at weddings and indeed all outdoor celebrations ever since there have been guns in that part of the World. That doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do when you're in a war zone with nervous American soldiers flying around in helicopters, of course, but it's still going to happen. Occupying armies frequently shoot at the wrong people. It's generally hazardous to occupy foreign lands...both for the occupying forces and for the locals. That's one of the reasons I generally argue against invading people...specially when it's done on an extremely flimsly or a totally false pretext, as it was in the case of this war on Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:49 PM

Isn't it traditional in America to fire off guns in the air sometimes as a way of celebrating? Or is that just in old time westerns?

No Americans with even a scratch, Nobody taken prisoner, even though it appears that there were troops on the ground as well, who came in shooting after the helicopters had done their stuff.

Here is an account of what happened in the wedding at Ramadi, from a reporter on thne ground, carried in today's Guardian: 'US soldiers started to shoot us, one by one' -
Survivors describe wedding massacre as generals refuse to apologise

And here is a bit about the groom's sister-in-law, Mrs Shihab, who lost two young sons in the massacre:

She lay there and a second round hit her on the right arm. By then her two boys lay dead. "I left them because they were dead," she said. One, she saw, had been decapitated by a shell.

"I fell into the mud and an American soldier came and kicked me. I pretended to be dead so he wouldn't kill me. My youngest child was alive next to me."

Somneone mentioned what hapened to Native Americans a few posts back. This sounds like it fits in chillingly with that record.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:30 PM

It seems the U.S. is acting on very unreliable intelligence. Seems that mistakes are happening over and over again. Seems their new methods of attaining that 'intelligence' are flawed. Maybe if they stopped obtaining statements from torture victims, this would change.

Evidence of WMD? I wonder how they obtained that information? Probably in Afghanistan. Torture victims will say anything to make the torture stop.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:38 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushrumaward.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/prisoncrap.jpg


Besides changing the words torture and murder to abuse and accident, the neopranksters are sahping the debate in terms of:

How much torture is too much torture?

its a short step to - how much holocaust is too much holocaust?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:09 PM

This is unbearable; as much because of the uncertainty. Surely even at night, the difference between armed insurgency and a houseparty is obvious? How could two such contradictory stories be told about the same event???

The Chinooks often carry video-cameras in their noses -- don't they show evidence that one or the other is true? Where's the intell that indicates this was a hot enemy site rather than the domestic village portrayed by the Guardian? These two stories are totally incompatible. Somebody's lying through their teeth, and I would like to know what the hell is going on.

A

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:46 PM

Amos - If the U.S. doesn't pull out soon, the U.N. might have to force them out. There is such a thing as war crimes and indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. I am so sorry that Bush and his buddies have disgraced the U.S. I wish someone would have the balls to place an ultimatum on the U.S. Maybe the world should impose sanctions or confiscate the bank accounts of Bush Inc. to help re-build Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:53 PM

There are plenty of people who would love to do just that, Dianavan, but it's difficult to issue ultimatums to those who are loaded to the gills with the World's largest arsenal of WMD's. They tend to either ignore you or else blow you up.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:02 AM

The "evidence" presented that this was a military camp appears to have consisted of there being some guns (in a country where guns are as common as in the USA), some money (about $800 or so), some passports (at a wedding where family members from both sudes of the border with Syria a few miles away would be present) and a satellite mobile phone (in a part of the world where that's the only kind of phone that works). And the suggestion that the idea of a wedding being held in a small village away from a town is highly suspicious.

In other words, nothing at all.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:39 AM

My US cousins cannot believe the amount of hatred they heard directed at the US in the south of Ireland,I told them they won`t be receiving any consolation in the north.
When questioned about the attitude of the US citizens to the occupation [they tried to correct me and use war instead] they thought on the whole the people of the US thought that Bush and co were doing a good job.
So there you have it, now we know who are the most naive people on earth,can someone in the US please tell me they are AT LEAST 90% WRONG.

What we are seeing on our TV screens is almost beyond words, what type of country would try to defend such evil, after all this interrogation technice was scantioned by Rumsfeld, GOD HELP THE USA.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 22 May 04 - 03:30 PM

A comment I heard last night (in Vancouver) about the U.S., "I don't know anyone who agrees with the U.S."

I know that is very general but yes, the perception here seems to be that the actions of the U.S. government reflect the wishes of their people.

Thank goodness I discovered Mudcat and found that many do not agree with the actions of the U.S. govt.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:45 PM

I see Bush is still scheduled to visit Ireland in a few weeks. That could be interesting. Pressure grows to cancel Bush visit

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 04 - 02:29 AM

Lately I've been wondering: If the bush's (the other day I saw a sign: Defoliate Bush!) approval rating continues to drop, say to 30 %, what will happen to the election? My guess is that some other Republican would run for President in opposition to him. It isn't common but it has happened fairly frequently that a political party didn't support the incumbent President.

And YES, ard mhacha, there are many Americans who despise the current president and loathe what has happened to this country under him. In Juneau, Alaska, which is considered quite liberal, I know fewer than a handful of people who trust and support this administration. (It's gotten to the place where most of us just don't discuss it with them. But they overhear us talk, and they sit here while the songwriters amongst us sing their biting lyrics. So there is hope!)

Parts of the rest of Alaska is predominately conservative; I think it has to do with some loners and misfits from down south believing in the mystique of "going to Alaska where a MAN can do what he wants." As a result, Alaska has elected some very strange officials.

Judging from the Mudcatters represented on this forum and who are scattered all across this country, there are a lot of sane people down there. I just hope that those Americans who still don't see it will have the blinders torn from their eyes in time.

Here's my political wish: John McCain to change parties and join Kerry. McCain, I believe, is disbelieving and disgusted, even distraught at some Republicans' reactions to the atrocities that are coming to light.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:22 AM

The problem is, all of us seem to have different ideas of how to stop the terrorists. Some seem to think that we should give them what they ask for, some that we should kill them all. One has to look at the consequences of one's opinions if one is incorrect: If I give them what they want, and they kill me (and my children, and your children...) anyway, how much better off am I?

Bearded Bruce; you are soooooooo right on this issue.

If we give them what they want; it a sign of weakness, and they will be even more determined to destroy the free world.

The only way to end this war is victory over the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:27 AM

And the way the trigger happy torturers and murderers attached to the US government are going about it will create more and more revenge seeking citizens from the Islamic world.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:42 AM

Two bears, for someone who mentions forgiveness against those who wronged you in a previous thread, you strike me as a vindictive, violent and petty minded bigot. Given how the US army treated your (alledgedly) people you think that you of all people might be less inclined to sanction the "at any cost" use of force. But then again it is just a bunch of Arabs half way round the world.

Just what disciplines are you master in, Bigotry, vindictiveness, hatred, militarism, irresponsible use of force, immorality, verbal and physical abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:53 AM

Report Links U.S. General to Iraq Prison Abuse Case
Sun May 23, 2004 01:07 AM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A lawyer for a soldier charged in the Abu Ghraib abuse case said a captain at the Iraqi prison has charged that Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez was present during some unspecified "interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse," The Washington Post reported on Sunday.
Citing a recording of a military hearing obtained by the newspaper, The Post said the military lawyer, Capt. Robert Shuck, was told that Sanchez, the highest-ranking U.S. military officer in Iraq, and other senior officials were aware of what was taking place at Abu Ghraib.

Shuck is assigned to defend Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, one of the seven U.S. soldiers, four men and three women, accused of abuses at the prison. One pleaded guilty on Wednesday and was imprisoned. The Post reported on Saturday that Frederick had been accused by military police officers involved in the scandal of being an organizer of the abuse.

The U.S. Congress and the Pentagon are both investigating the revelations of physical and sexual abuse of Iraqi inmates at the prison outside Baghdad that have surfaced in the past month. Details of the abuse, including graphic photos and sworn depositions, have shaken the Bush administration as it attempts turn back sovereignty to the Iraqis on June 30.

The Post on Saturday published testimony of soldiers speaking of fun and sadistic pleasure in abusing prisoners. A day earlier it published new images, including video, of Iraqis being beaten and sexually humiliated. The newspaper said Shuck made the allegation regarding Sanchez at an April 2 hearing, stating he had been told that by the company commander, Capt. Donald Reese.

"Are you saying that Captain Reese is going to testify that General Sanchez was there and saw this going on?" the military prosecutor asked, according to the transcript. "That's what he told me," Shuck said.

A Defense Department spokesman referred questions to U.S. military officials in the Middle East. The spokesman told The Post that statements by defense lawyers or their clients should be treated with "appropriate caution." The hearing was held at Camp Victory in Baghdad, the newspaper said, and that it obtained a copy of an audio recording. Shuck was quoted as saying, "Present during some of these happenings, it has come to my knowledge that Lieutenant General Sanchez was even present at the prison during some of these interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse by those duty (noncommissioned officers)."

The newspaper said Reese did not testify that day, instead invoking the military version of his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. The Post said Reese has not been granted immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony. © Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 09:01 AM

The only way to end this war is victory over the terrorists.

And aren't the torturers, and those who give them their orders, terrorists? Victory over "the terrorists" has to include victory over the terrorists you actually have direct control over.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:01 AM

Terror is the end product of both torture and abuse. You're right, MrGrath, the conduct of the U.S. in Iraq can only be described as terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:33 PM

ard mhaca and dianavan: Bush's approval numbers continue to decline in the US. Here are current results and some historical ones for "approval of what's going on in Iraq" and similar questions. I think that it is safe to say that most Americans do not agree with him, and Mudcat is not a minority community.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:14 PM

Two bears, for someone who mentions forgiveness against those who wronged you in a previous thread, you strike me as a vindictive, violent and petty minded bigot. Given how the US army treated your

Nope. The terrorists that slammed the two jets into the WTC, Bombed inocent people in countries like Africa, Bali, Saudi Arabia, etc are evil, and must be stopped to protect society from them.

The only way to stop them is to arrest or kill them.

(alledgedly) people you think that you of all people might be less inclined to sanction the "at any cost" use of force. But then again it is just a bunch of Arabs half way round the world.

It was abysmal the way the military treated the First Americans. Back then the Millitary was reacting from fear and hatred.

In this case; you have terrorists that have no value for life, and can not be reasoned with.

I have made it ABUNDANTLY clear time after time; but no one gets it. I am NOT against the Arabs. I am against the terrorists that believe they are being directed by God to kill the infidel (anyone that doesn not believe as they do). It is the Wahabist moslem terrorists that are trying to hijack a peaceful religion, and use terrorism and Islam to rebuild the Ottoman empire.

Just what disciplines are you master in, Bigotry, vindictiveness, hatred, militarism, irresponsible use of force, immorality, verbal and physical abuse?

None of those you mentioned. I am a Master/Teacher or higher in five forms of Reiki (Karuna, Magnussa Phoenix. Usui Shiki, Ussui Shiki Ryoho, and Tibetan, Seichim, Seventh Facet Seichim, and Zhan Zhuang Qigong.

I recognize evil when I see it, and do what I can to stand against it.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:50 PM

"THE SEVENTH FACET

This Facet works on the third eye, this symbol allows one to activate the dormant, universal ability of crystal clear seeing in all situations. A visually oriented energy, this symbol can be use whenever extraordinarily capabilities of seeing to the heart of the matters is necessary."

You are kidding us, arent you?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:52 PM

An eye for an eye,
A tooth for a tooth,
Till we are all eyeless
And toothless.

The Bush administration has made it abundantly clear that it has a policy of containing international terrorism by extermination or imprisonment without adherence to international law. It is an open question how far this policy is being implemented in Iraq but clearly the wave of torture and humiliation being uncovered now reflects what has been happening in Guantanamo.

This latest atrocity in Western Iraq is probably more a misjudgment by military intelligence, assuming it really was a wedding party, than a deliberate act of homicide. However, the fact that we can inflict death and destruction by remote control, rather than face to face, doesn't raise our actions to a higher plain. They're still willing to gamble that they can exterminate the terrorists. By our actions in Iraq we have in fact recruited many more terrorists than we have been able to eliminate, and that policy is a dismal failure.

More and more people, Republicans in this country as well, agree that it's time for regime change here at home. And we'll work hard to see that this happens in November.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:54 PM

Where exactly did you receive your qualifications for these 'disciplines', and are you in charge of any children, in the course of your work?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:05 AM

Two bears,

Two bears,

Before 9/11 there were quite a few terrorists who wanted to lash out at the US, most of them were unable to do so. The World trade center and Pentegon were in the main attacked by Saudis. There was no Iraqi hijackers.

The US led invasion of Iraq has created many more terrorists, and has provided a battle ground for those non-Iraqi terrrorists who would have liked to hit the US but were unable to do so and now the heavy handed US policy is creating more.

So in trying to arrest and kill those who have decided to become "terrorists" just how many innocents is it acceptable to kill, maim or torture to get the result you desire. With each ugly act, another Iraqi may well decide that enough is enough in his country and there you have another ready made fighter that you will have to root out.

If you think you can destroy such terrorist networks then look to the British experience in Northern Ireland, they had succeses but they had many more faliures, and that in a country that shared a lot more than Iraq and the US do in term of Language and culture.

So what do we do then Two bears, kill em , let God sort em out, a bit of t-shirt philosophy maybe. Bomb em back into the stone age may sound good in a movie but it rarely works in real life, not unless you want to perpetuate the problem. Just look at Israel and the Palestinians, an endless round of tit for tat killings that achieves nothing except to show how barbaric they can both be. Is that your way ahead?

And if they do believe they are being directed by God to kill those they feel are opressing them, look again at the torture film/pictures and ask yourself how you would feel if it was your family or friends being treated so. Would you feel so full of rage you had to pick up your weapon or would your range of disciplines enable you to forgive those involved and give them all a big hug?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:07 PM

Of course "kill 'em, let God sort 'em out" was part of the thinking behind September 11th.

And the other part, I'm certain would have been a confident expectation that the response by the USA to the provocation could be guaranteed to be such as to drive a whole lot of people into the Al Qaida camp.

The first thing to consider in any conflict is "will what I am doing strengthem my enemy?"

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:00 PM

Two Bears with you being proficient in all of those mysterious arts, maybe you could through a PM put me on to a couple of certs at the gee-gees.
Your name had me wondering for a time as to its origin, heres me thinking you were caught with your trousers down and all of the time you were a NA.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:13 PM

Where exactly did you receive your qualifications for these 'disciplines', and are you in charge of any children, in the course of your work?

I received those qualifications by studying with a totle of 8 Reiki masters, three Seichim masters, and one Qigong master. Do you want to drive over and see the certificates.

I am NOT in charge of any children; but I encounter lots of them in my work.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:15 PM

Guest, McGrath, you both have bought into a scenario of 9-11 which was made for TV and an intended revenge to begin this New American Century.

When a belief system is formed around such a flawed premise, your outrage may be honorable but misdirected, just as the planned Pearl Harbor event intended.

If you were fully briefed, and I mean FULLY, the issue of torture would be a tiny footnote of horrendous crimes committed by the NPAC fascists.

We are all breathing the same air. We are breathing together, and that is the dissected meaning and etiiology of the word conspiracy.
When the lie is big enough and the facts foul enough, few will ever even wish to contemplate the truth no matter how obvious it is.

As bad as you think this administration is, its worse.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:22 PM

So what do we do then Two bears, kill em , let God sort em out, a bit of t-shirt philosophy maybe. Bomb em back into the stone age may sound good in a movie but it rarely works in real life, not unless you want to perpetuate the problem. Just look at Israel and the Palestinians, an endless round of tit for tat killings that achieves nothing except to show how barbaric they can both be. Is that your way ahead?

If that was the answer; I would suggest carpet bombing. It isn't the answer, and I DO NOT recommend it.

The Iraqi people are aware of which one's are foreign fighters, and could point them out to the military.

The problem is that Iraqi people have a long history of waking up dead if they reported these thugs.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:44 PM

I think for most Iraqis the term "foreign fighters" would mean, in the first place, the US troops and their allies.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:42 PM

Donuel - I totally agree with you.

I always wonder why people seem to be ignoring the obvious. I think you're right; the present U.S. administration is worse than anyone could imagine. I also think that to realize this, is to be overwhelmed by hopelessness and despair.

I go out to the garden and work hard or write or paint. You, create political cartoons. Some people sing about it. Some people play music. We all need to find a creative outlet or we will become very depressed.

Others direct their anger at the wrong people or in traffic or at the office. Some become control freaks. We live in a very complex world. Thanks to Bush, we live in a world of fear and mistrust.

Its far easier to believe everything the government tells you and to believe that the government has your best interest at heart.

...and btw, I really like your Mona Lisa. She's beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:49 PM

I think for most Iraqis the term "foreign fighters" would mean, in the first place, the US troops and their allies.

The Iraqi people do not refer to the troups as foreign fighters (or at least not until recently if they do so now). The U.S. troups were called "the Americans". By foreign fighters; I was referring to the people coming across the border from Jordan, Iran, Syria, etc.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:10 AM

www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

Not so long ago in the good ole USA. Two bears should enjoy this, all that evil being stamped out by regular folks like you and me.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:09 AM

Two_bears
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:49 PM
"The Iraqi people do not refer to the troops as foreign fighters (or at least not until recently, if they do so now)."

I sense a little backpeddling, two bears.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:32 AM

I sense a little backpeddling, two bears

Not at all. I had a friend serving in Iraq (he came back to the states about 3 months ago) I do not know how the Iraqi people are reacting to the soldiers now.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:36 PM

"Foreign fighters" isn't a phrase that exactly trips off the tongue, even in English. If the Iraqis don't refer to the occupying army as "the foreigners" (albeit in Arabic), I'd be very surprised.

"Foreign fighters" is a press release type of expression. I shouldn't think the US troops put it exactly that way either.