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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM Tir Chonaill Welcome back. Re your 2 questions 1 To be balanced, an historical film should look at the rights and wrongs of both sides of a conflict. 2 No. What ever made you think that I did? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Epona Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:13 AM I leave for a bit and things are relatively the same! Kiwi, welcome to the group.Have you read Tom Barry's "Guerilla Days"? If not, I'd be happy to post it over to you. I'm amassing quite a library of Irish history books. Good to see we're multiplying, hey Tir? On the serious side, though, for centuries, the people in power have been the ones to dictate the contents of history. The lives of the poor or insignificant were forgotten, discarded. Our lives today, though, have given us the opportunity to tell our stories or those that have been forgotten. Keith, this film tells a moving and important piece of history. It may not speak to your taste or sensibilities, but it doesn't make the film any less valuable to society. If his work makes even one person think about the Irish struggle for freedom then it's done its job. Great to see you guys again! Welcome aboard, Kiwi. E PS Forgive any spelling mistakes. I'm doing this on my Blackberry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,observer Date: 19 Jul 06 - 04:17 AM Epona, Nice to see you are still observing, You enjoyed the movie I must make an effort to see it. I have never tried it yet on a Blackberry, must try it sometime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 04:19 AM Nice to see you here again Epona. "Doing this on my Blackberry" Sounds nice ! Yes things haven't changed much, the loyal few with a mind and voice for the truth is still here, and of course there is still Haemorrhoids (also known as Piles) here too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jul 06 - 04:27 AM and there are those who tell fibs about what other members say. Welcome back Epona. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM For once the truth has been said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: stallion Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:21 AM alluded to inan earlier post Big Mick "I have always said that when one looks at the history of Ulster fairly, then they will understand that historically this has very little to do with Catholic/Protestant or Loyalist/Republican Nationalist. It's roots lie in the industrialist mentality that felt as though their rights to profits were God given and that the working class were the tool given to them to be used as they saw fit." THe real tragedy of the film was the civil war, which appears to be a straight fight between socialists and the Irish elite driven opposition. I know, that is a gross over simplification, I am aware that "battle fatigue" etc come into the equation. What did come across is the hopelessness of ordinary people caught up in it, if you cracked under torture then you were branded a quisling and, if enduring that wasn't enough, shot by the people you had "informed on". We are not talking sophisticated Machevelian politico freedom fighters we are talking simple folk, in simple jobs who probably had little experience of the outside world other than that which was taken to them, the whole business was a tragedy. Relating to the "encouraged by Industrialisation"(my words), it was surely that that put paid to slavery, slave owning required land to feed them at "no cost" during hard times, having slaves in factories would have been uneconomic as they had a value one would have to spend money to maintain ones investment, as soon as it was realised that "wage slavery" had all the benefits of slavery without any of the responsibilities, then slavery was dead in the water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM An example of this in my own town was the four main Linen producing factories. They were all English owned and the conditions and wages paid to the employees was simply slavery.I have no doubt this was the same in other parts of the U.K. The only difference we had was Catholics worked the looms and the protestants worked in the offices.And when it came to the elections, catholics were not allowed to vote. The factory owner got the votes of the number of catholics he employed ! We must remember both traditions fought the English together in the 1798 rebellion. A wise man said then, "The Irish get on well when they have a common enemy". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,JAck Campin Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:54 AM Back to this: : I remember treating a guy in a psychiatric unit who had been a serving soldier in the North : of Ireland. He came over to spread the word of God. Very nice guy, clearly unwell,very psychotic. : [...] Remember these two guys who used to visit him a lot asked to see me. They asked had he : gone into his service over here much ? I said just a few times, nothing detailed. One replied : that we would prefer if you tried to discourage any conversation. Best no one knows his : background or what he belonged to in the interest of personal security. What that reminds me of is the conscripted soldiers who were used as guinea pigs for nuclear or chemical warfare experiments and then silenced by the Official Secrets Act, preventing them getting appropriate treatment because they couldn't tell their doctors what had happened to them. In the case of the nerve gas experiments, there is a treatment window of a few weeks after which the damage becomes irreversible; the Army's policy of secrecy had the effect of turning a serious but treatable injury into a lifelong crippling disability. It would have been in that man's interest for you to get those "two guys" photographed, frogmarched to the door by some large strong nurses and told never to come back. His problem at that point wasn't with the IRA any more (if it ever had been), it was with the Army. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM To a point I can understand why they may have wanted to protect his security and if they were fearful of him talking and saying something he shouldn't have, why then do the army or police not provide their own units for vets with mental health problems ? Sadly the troubles kept us busy with many security force members on our books. Found they dropped them like stones once they had been in with us. Medical retirement was offered very quickly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Lil' Kiwi Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM Thanks Epona! I have not read that book, will pm you my details Many thanks! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Epona Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:34 PM :) No problem. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM Thanks Keith for the welcome, and to all the 'lads'... ;-) "2 No. What ever made you think that I did?" This.... "Re your experience with the British Army, it would be helpful to know if you were a volunteer with PIRA" Why should you make such a correlation? Are all Iraqi's, for instance, who are against 'The Allied Occupation', viewed as subversives... ... or just potential ones? It is one thing to re-write history, Keith, quite another fettle of kish however, to invent it.... like that craic about the Civil Rights Movement putting a United Ireland agenda forward quicker than the Armed Struggle could have done. Remember that all the nationalist people of Ireland, Keith, were always known as 'The Enemy'. Brookeborough said it in so many words, and refused point blank (pun intended) to consider the Nationalist goal of self-determination. In the post-9/11 World such nomenclature was, and is, reserved for Al Q and the bhoys. What your take on the phenomenon of the 'Thought Police', Keith? Do you pander to it by any chance, yourself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Epona Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM "Fettle of kish"...cute. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM United Ireland by 2016, Keith, what do you reckon? It would be some Independence Day celebration Easter Monday that year, wouldn't it? It's taken 800 years to get this far, Keith (... are you in, or outside the Danegeld, by the way....?) 10 extra years maximum, Keith, and by then, Please God Linfield Football Club will have abandoned their wicked ways, and field a half decent GAA team every Sunday, just for good measure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:55 PM Ahhhh, the old roonerspisms are still the best, E... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM Linfield 0.11 Armagh 3.9 Great to see the truth has brought the Irish back to the site, somehow I imagine the pm's are flying today to get the odd dosser who knows sweet F.A. about Ireland to come on board to defeat this rabble of rebels ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Lil' Kiwi Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM The comment "why then do the army or police not provide their own units for vets with mental health problems ?" Reminds me of my experience with someone close to me. I don't know about other countries, but the NZ army has a system and I've seen it work. My mate was in the NZ army for some years and served in Bosnia with the UN Peace Keepers and NATO, he had a particular role there so he came back 'messed up' and was so for some years. Fortunately support was (and still is) there to help him out. In general, if a country expects people to fight and die, there should at least be quality support for those that return home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:14 PM Indeed, Divis, a reasonable scoreline to be sure.... as I say a 'half decent' team..... there's an apprenticeship to be served, in fairness...... How stupid do you think we actually are? It must be an awful embarrassment, though to those of you who sing 'Rule Britannia' at the drop of a hat, a football..... or a cricket ball. ....like, I mean "HAllO????" ... or as GWB would say "Yo!" Sad, man. Sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM "....to defeat this rabble of rebels" In a nutshell, Divis. ... and look how far that thinking has got them.... Post-Colonial-Hangover-syndrome, they call it It still is the basis for the disease of Neo Nazism. Keith thread-drifts too much to allow himself to be drawn into that black hole, though UVF handed in their weapons yet? Anyone give a toss? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:34 PM Loyalist play three sports over here that nationalists don't follow, Cricket, Hockey and Rugby. These are all "Ireland" not "Northern Ireland" teams, if they dislike us so much then why did they stand under the tri colour on tour, considering two of the Hockey team are strong D.U.P. members and one D.U.P. councillor is big in rugby circles. D.U.P. mouthpiece Peter Robinson was on television tonight here speaking about the respect the loyalist community gave to the R.U.C. over the years ! He forgot to add that it was loyalists who shot dead the first R.U.C. man Constable Arbuckle, and it was loyalists that killed the last R.U.C. man with a pipe bomb at Drumcree, another one with a selective memory, should join us here ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:57 PM "These are all "Ireland" not "Northern Ireland" teams" Nutshells seem to be the order of the day, this evening. ... even during the Armed Struggle, they still were All-Ireland teams. ........ And let's not forget the Sunday escapades 'Down South' to get the chape buttir at Jonesboro', and the few pints before the Dundalk United home games.... Give my head pace, will ya? When all the inconsistencies are counted up, and the emotional attachment to the situation taken out of the equation, any reasonable person would be understandably confused. No wonder people '.... don't understand the situation over there' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:48 PM Guest, there is a lady called McBride who does a bit of chanting on behalf of the D.U.P. a party which hates catholics and Ireland and makes no bones about it may I add. Last year she brought her hockey team on tour to australia. When they ran the Irish tri colour up the pole and the band played Amhrán na bhFiann she stood with the rest of the team of loyalists. This was great, I of course admired that. When she got home, sadly for her the news of this treason had reached the ears of her party. She was that thick she said they went along with it because she said they thought if the Australians thought we were Irish we would get a better crowd ! No idea why I am explaining this to someone who clearly is recovering from a lobotomy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:39 PM ... forgot to put my name on the 7.57 post... Not content with chape buttir and the few Sunday pints, even if it mesnt killing the Holy hour at a football game they couldn't care less about, the so-called Unionists are now running in hordes down to Dublin to get the best passport in the World. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:46 PM Keith? There's a few inconsistencies we'd love you to have a stab at explaining away. Points will ve awarded for the best laughs generated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM To avoid thread drift in another thread about this film, I reluctantly agreed to start this thread. If the things you want explaining are not relevant to the film, please use it. Briefly I already answered why it mattered to the army if Sweeney was a terrorist. Your celebrations on Unity day will be dwarfed by those in England and Wales. Like everyone in England, I was always against discrimination. When you get unity it will be by democratic means. Every shooting and bombing alienated british public opinion and made it harder for the government to negotiate with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:48 AM Sweeney, It was cruel to make that remark about Tir Chonail's lobotomy. He should have remembered to put his name on the post though. How were you to know he was on your side? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:08 AM Tir, don't be too hard on yer man Sweeney. He has benn under a lot of pressure. Also it was vey late. Sorry, should not mention that should I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM Refference was not to Tír Chonaill as you are aware. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:44 AM I think it was! But don't blame yourself. I was not sure which side he was on either. The gargle dimmed his brain? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:46 AM Well did I ever worry what you thought ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:51 AM I was addressing You, Keith; I assumed it was you that Divis was accusing of not being possession of your full faculties. Thankfully we seem to be both of sound mind & body. You, and your 'reluctant' thread starting.... I believe it was you who took this thread off topic. Just jot down in 1, 2 & 3 form, basically your thoughts on what we have asked you... ... if you don't mind, that is |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:24 AM IT IS ALL ABOUT SAVING FACE, ISN'T IT You thought you were talking to me. I had no idea who you were talking to. Sweeney thought you were talking to him, and was VERY rude in reply. We don't get many laughs in these threads. Bless you both, you have brightened my day. Now, back to the BS. I am not sure from all your rambling posts what you are asking me. Please put your questions in form 1, 2, 3, etc. and I will give my honest answers as best as I can. BUT, it they are not relevant to this thread, ask them elsewhere as requested. Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM Hello ! I think if you care to read the above you will see that you will see Tír Chonaill and I are clearly singing from the same hymn sheet. Really haven't seen you so cornered since you dug a hole for yourself on another thread last month ! You could always pm that couple of terminal bores who don't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to Irish politics for moral support ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:54 AM Question for you Tir. Why do you say I took the thread off subject? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:06 AM Because you always do it Keith ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:09 AM Examples? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Fiolar Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:57 AM When I was growing up in Ireland many of my neighbours and people I knew were members of what is now known as the "Old IRA". In fact my eldest uncle was one and I have still got his service medal. I even was familiar with some who took part in the Kilmichael Ambush and went to school with their children. They were ordinary decent people and the War was hardly ever discussed. Looking back it must have very difficult to take part in such an action and to leave your family open to retaliation. Not that the Tans and Auxies needed any as people who are familiar with murder of Canon Magner know. I wonder if the IRA hadn't fought would Ireland be like it is today. Many Irishmen fought because of the propoganda given out about the rights of small nations and how the "dastardly Huns" had invaded little Belgium. Funny how the peace conference after the World War One refused to do anything about Ireland. Lil' Kiwi" I wonder what would have happened to New Zealand if it was say a few thousand miles nearer England? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:02 AM Tir, you said "it was you who took this thread off topic." Neither you, nor the last Guest, nor anyone else has been able to back up that statement. You have been back one day, and already you are making false accusations against me. You and Sweeney are indeed singing from the same hymn sheet! And what of this morning's other fibs? The ones about the lobotomy post. Sweeney said,"Refference was not to Tír Chonaill as you are aware" Shame on you Sweeney. Tir said," assumed it was you that Divis was accusing of not being possession of your full faculties." Tut tut Tit. That post was addressed to Guest. And Tir said that Guest him. No room for misunderstanding. True to form you resort to lies to save face. Well keep them coming boys. Each whopper you tell sends your credibility even deeper down the Mudcat toilet. Believe me, life is much easier when you are honest. And sleeping too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM Good post Fiolar. The men you speak of were brave and driven by honest conviction. I do feel that you denigrate the WW1 volunteers. The propaganda about what the german army did was largely true. I am sure that Irishmen are as good as Englishmen at seeing through propaganda. Then there was WW2. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Divis Sweeney Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:43 AM I am seeing someone here getting very frustrated with those around him. I also get the the image of a man who could not lie straight in bed. Yet again you are digging a hole for yourself, get out before it caves in around you. Listen to the above posters as I find you are deaf as far as I'm concerned. Getting hot again today isn't it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:14 AM I am not feeling the heat too much. keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: ard mhacha Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:44 PM Epoma and Li Kiwi, Try Amazon for what I consider the best book of the period 1916-22, it is Ernie O`Malleys, `On another mans wound`. The last time I went to Amazon a second hand copy was available. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: ard mhacha Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:50 PM Quite a bit on O`Malley, by Googling his name youcan read the book on the net, don`t forget John McGuffins account of his internment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Lil' Kiwi Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM Fiolar please don't scare me like that! I'd much rather not think what lil' NZ would be like if we were closer to England. The 'Black & Tans' were dirty words in my Grandparents home as it is..... Thanks for the Amazon reference ard mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Epona Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:41 PM Great minds, Ard! Already part of my collection. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: ard mhacha Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM Good on you Epona and wlcome back, Lil`Kiwi the book is also on full on the net. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Epona Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:14 AM Thanks! Good to be back...it's like I've never left. It seems to me that before my hiatus there were a few threads in which Keith was taking a beating from the boys; I come back and see history repeating itself. Keith, I'm starting to wonder if you enjoy it... ;) E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Fiolar Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:41 AM Another one I can reccomend is "Bloody Sunday" by James Gleason. Originally published in 1962, it was republished in 2004 in the USA. ISBN: 1-59228-282-2. Very interesting to read as Gleason's father was an RIC man and he himself was familiar with the time he covers. Available from Amazon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ban on 'The Wind That Shakes The Barley' From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:21 AM Epona, I can not remember any threads like that, but I did enjoy the boys beating each other up yesterday! Tir said, "Points will ve awarded for the best laughs generated." Who's winning so far? Keith. |
