Origins: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)

Subject: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: GUEST,Windsinger
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:45 AM

Argh.

No, that doesn't adequately convey my current mental state. Let me try bold caps.

>********ARRGH.***********<

Whyinell am I always tormented by sh*t like this, at 3 am?

Anyway. Anyone out there who has familiarity with Welsh and Welsh songs....HELP. There is a song tune that will NOT leave my head until I can hunt down the lyrics. I think the title translates as "The Old Black Pig," ---Mochyn- fy-something or other...chorus translates:

"Oh we are so very sad, O we are so very sad, We are so brokenhearted Now that the old black pig is dead."

It gets featured in Welsh films a lot. For centuries the Cymry have been notorious for bursting into lavish five-part harmony at the drop of a hat. (I thought it was a stereotype, until I read a 12th century Welsh travel guide by Gerald de Berri that comments on it.) Anytime Hollywood wishes to pay homage to this quirk, THAT'S the song they always seem to pick. (Ex: it was featured at Ifor and Bronwyn's wedding scene in "How Green Was My Valley"; also at one of the pub scenes in "Hedd Wyn.")

Anyone know where to begin to begin pointing me in the right direction??????

Subject: Lyr Add: MOCHYN DU (BLACK PIG)
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 11:00 AM

I think that this is the one you are referring to?

MOCHYN DU (BLACK PIG)

Redodd dito i Llwyncelyn,
Mofyn Matti at y mochyn,
Dwedodd Matti, o mor arw
Mochyn clysydd bron y marw.

Chorus:
O mor drwm yr ydym ni
O mor drwm yr ydym ni.
Y mae yma alar calon
Ar ol claddew mochyn du.

English translation is thus:

Run my David to Llwyncelyn
To fetch Mati to the piggie,
But Mati told us quickly,
That the black pig was dying.

Chorus:
Oh, our Hearts are very sore,
Oh, our hearts are very sore,
Oh, our hearts are very heavy,
When we buried the black pig.

This is a Welsh folk song of course, but it was very popular on ships that carried an entire Welsh crew, where it was used as a capstan shanty.

English words were sung to this tune as well. There are many versions including one with the ridiculous chorus line: "Was you ever saw, was you ever saw, was you ever saw such a funny thing before?"

I am afraid that I do not possess the full version of "Mochyn Du". But I can probably find itversion if I set my mind to it.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 2-Feb-02.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 03:23 PM

It was, if memory serves, written by a minister in Ceredigion (mid Wales - around Aberystwyth) around 1865 and became hugely popular throughout Wales. I have a feeling that we used it in the Welsh film Hedd Wyn - so ... apologies if any are necessary! I've got more info somewhere if you need more, but it will be easier to research next week, after we get over Eisteddfod Fever this week. What else did you want to know. ! Oh, by the way, if Tegwyn comes back with contradictory info (I did say I was working from memory) take his word for it. He probably even knows the author's family! Tight lot, those Cardis! (people of Ceredigion)

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 03:05 PM

Hi Sian!

You are very knowledgeable for a Wild Welsh Woman!!

Cheers!

Dave R.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 04:45 AM

Abbey Sale has posted some information from a thread YEARS ago at (I hope I get this clicky thing right) the Hob i deri dando thread which is relevant. Take a look.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: Windsinger
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 10:24 AM

I am afraid that I do not possess the full version of "Mochyn Du".

This is a little bit after the fact, ;) but I did eventually acquire a "working" version of the Welsh lyrics, enough to record a modest cover of it.

So in honor of St. David's Day this Thursday, here's what I got. I also have a .midi of the tune somewhere; if I can't find it, I'll recreate it from scratch.

(Skipper Jack: some renditions also include your verse, some don't, and some include a lot more than EITHER of us have presented. This song's probably been heavily affected by the oral tradition and accumulated verses from later authors. I THINK the following four were Owens' original ones, though.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir

________________


Y MOCHYN DU
Words and tune by John Owen (1836-1915)

Holl drigolion bro a bryniau
Dewch i wrando hyn o eiriau
Cewch chi hanes rhyw hen fochyn
A fu farw yn dra sydyn


Cytgan:

O mor drwm yr ydym ni
O mor drwm yr ydym ni
Y mae yma alar calon
Ar ôl claddu'r mochyn du.


Gweithiwyd iddo arch o dderi
Wedi'i drimio a'i berarogli
Ac fe dorrwyd bedd ardderchog
I'r hen fochyn yng Ngharngoediog

Y Parchedig Wil Twm Griffi
Ydoedd yno yn pregethu
Pawb yn sobor anghyffredin
Oll i ddangos parch i'r mochyn

Bellach rydwyf yn terfynu
Nawr gan roddi heibio ganu
Cymrwch ofal bawb rhag dilyn
Siampl ddrwg wrth fwydo mochyn


Translation:


All you (inhabitants) of the community and hills
Come and listen to these words
You'll get the story of an old pig
Who died very suddenly.


Chorus:

Oh how heavy (hearted) we are
Oh how heavy (hearted) we are
There is heartfelt grief here
After burying the black pig.


A coffin of oak was worked for him
Trimmed and scented
And a wonderful grave was dug
For the old pig in Carngoediog.

It was the Reverend Wil Twm Griffi
Who was there to preach
Everyone was terribly solemn
All to show respect for the pig.

Now I am finishing
And stopping the singing
Take care lest you follow
A bad example as you feed a pig.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: sian, west wales
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 01:06 PM

I think the full version has 12 verses (remember that this is a composed song) and these are v.s 1,5,7 and 12. You get the general run of the song here, tho' you could add:

v2
Beth oedd achos ei afiechyd?
Beth roes derfyn ar ei fywyd?
Ai maidd glas oedd achos ange
I'r hen fochyn i fynd adre?

(What was the cause of his illness?
What put an end to his life?
Could it have been some mould in the whey
That sent the pig homeward bound?)

and vs 8-11 make big of the sending-up of funerals, with women in deep mourning, etc. and everyone staring at the empty meat hooks in the ceiling. (Presumably if the pig died of unknown causes they couldn't use it for meat.)

There are a couple of songs satirizing funerals by setting up an animal as the dear departed. Seems to me it was a common comic turn in various parts of the British Isles - maybe farther afield too.

Yep - Happy Dewi Day too!

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: GUEST,Huwcyn
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 12:20 PM

O mor flasys fydda' sleisen
o gig mochyn efo tysen.
Ond yn awr rhaid wneud heb hwnnw,
Mochyn dy sydd wedi marw

O how tasty a bit of pig meat
with potato as a rare treat.
But we'll have to do without it,
for the old black pig has snuffed it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:05 PM

I can't find the little book of Welsh folksongs at this moment, so I can't identify it further, but I have an enlarged copy of Black Pig which has the following note:

"This popular humourous ballad could perhaps be called "The Lament For The Late Black Pig", and is sung to the tune of Lili Lon. Although in a light vein, it does emphasise the importance of the pig in a poor rural farming community.

The original words were composed by John Owen, a farm labourer who later became a nonconformist minister. They record the 'loss' of a pig belonging to a neighbour, David Morris.

There are any number of stanzas, varying from place to place in different parts of Wales, but always with the same refrain, sung with a mock grief for the dead 'mochyn'.

The tune was also used by ballad singers at fairs and similar gatherings. Ballad singers, in Wales as in England, were important conveyers of news before the advent of the popular newspapers, and were considered as commentators on 'the way of the world'."


I am very fond of the tune which I learned from the aforementioned book, brought home from a trip to Wales by my older sister. It is simple and easy, though it moves around a bit. Folks from my immediate part of the world (southern Ontario) may remember the tune (sans words) from an out of print cd "Eight Hands Round" by the band "Homespun", done with twin mandolins and guitar etc accompaniment.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Welsh: 'Old Black Pig'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:22 PM

I'll try to remember to check in the next few days, but a local (Cardiff) pub "Y Mochyn Ddu" (The Black Pig) {Nothing to do with the ship captained by Captain Pugwash} has the words of some verses of this on the wall. They also host a 'folk instrumental' session on Mondays!

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 11:20 AM

The book I referred to earlier is:

Famous Songs Of Wales 1 Caneuon Enwog Cymru

Arranged by John Hywel

1987 Gwynn (Penygroes, Caernarfon, Gwynedd LL54 6DB, Tel: [phone])

ISBN: 0 900426 60 8

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 03:08 PM

And if memory serves, John Owen tried to deny all connections with the song, or tried to discourage people from singing it, or some such, once he got caught in the high-beams of non-conformism.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 09:47 PM

A version of MOCHYN DU appears, with musical notation, in Shanties from the Seven Seas By Stan Hugill, 1961, page 238.

I will leave it to someone familiar with Welsh to transcribe it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 08 - 10:50 PM

title translates as "The Old Black Pig

I think just "the black pig" as you have it (Y Mochyn Du). I think hen is Welsh for old.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Mick Tems
Date: 16 Jan 08 - 09:31 AM

If it's any help at all, I have a Victorian Valleys ballad with the Mochyn Du verses in Wenglish:

The Mochyn Du

All you people, come and listen
Teardrops in your eyes will glisten
Pain will now your heart be rending
At your Mochyn's sudden ending

CHORUS: Oh how sad indeed are we
Oh how sad indeed are we
There was grief and tribulation
When we lost the Mochyn Du

What did cause the termination
Of our Mochyn's pilgrimation?
Was it too much wash or barley
That did waft her home so early?

Yes, the truth we must be telling
Too much grain her stomach swelling
She got very ill and poorly
Closed her eyes and went to glory!

Quickly Dai ran to Llwyncelyn
Fetching Matty to the Mochyn
Matty said, to our great horror
That the pig could not recover!

Then we built a silver coffin
Silver knobs and velvet trimming
And a vault with bricks and mortar
In the churchyard we did order

Then we sent to Isaac Thomas
For his hearse, which is so famous
And for horses black as mourning
For to drive our poor old Mochyn

Then the Reverend Thomas Griffiths
Came to read the funeral service
All the people there were sobbing
At the funeral of the Mochyn

Mary Jones and Peggy Williams
Led the way in solemn silence
All the people in the county
At the grave were weeping plenty

Then we went home, nice and tidy
Each one's heart was very heavy
But the girls were crying shocking
'Cause they'd gone and lost the Mochyn!

Mick Tems

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Mick Tems
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 08:12 AM

Sorry for the literal in the first verse, fourth line: "our Mochyn's", NOT "your Mochyn's".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 11:43 AM

Hey, Mick: mi mochyn, tu mochyn, as the Spanish would have it ...

(Or, "Oi, you: 'ands off me mochyn" in parts closer to home.)

Manyana

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Aneurin
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:50 AM

Fe wn i am un pennill rown ni'n arfer ganu

Rhoddwyd mwy o fwyd i'r mochyn
Na'llsai fola bach ei dderbyn
Ond yn awr mae'n rhi ddiweddar
Mochyn du sydd yn y ddaear

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 01:06 PM

yes very good da iawn.Ddia is a very lively song..we sing it at chapel.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:20 PM

Ie, Aneurin. Y trydydd benill sy' 'da ti.

3rd verse as per Aneurin above:

The pig was given more food
Than his little tummy could hold
But now it's too (should be 'rhy' rather than 'rhi') late
The black pig is in the earth.

Although some v.3s have a different second couplet:

Ymhen 'chydig o funude
Roedd y mochyn yn mynd adre

(within a few minutes
The pig was 'going home' i.e. to his heavenly home)

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 02:22 PM

FWIW --- Y Mochyn Du is also a pub in Sophia Gardens in Llandaff, Cardiff.

alt Mondays they have a Welsh music session. see my lists

last time I range the pub the landlord answered "the Black Pig" - I guess it is easier for those that don't sairad Cymraig.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 08:46 PM

Re Mooh's post, 28th Dec. - what about the tune, "Lili Lon"??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,David Lewis
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:58 PM

I've only just found this fascinating discussion ... I believe the song was written by my great-grand father, John Owen, and I've been trying to piece together the story over the past few years. I have recorded my modern folk version of the song, with a new tune and my own arrangement of the words - in English - recently. It can be heard at www.myspace.com/davidlewisfornow and I believe it has been on BBC Radio Wales Celtic Heartbeat programme a few times in the past year. Perhaps it is not a version for the purists - but I had a lot of fun doing it!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

hi all...

I study translating and interpreting ...and for an assignement of an english-class (dialectology) I will have to translate a text written in Wenglish into an Austrian dialect....

Unfortunately, I cannot find any text written in Wenglish on the internet...can anybody give me advice?!?!

thanks a lot,

Ruth

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Bill the sound
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:15 PM

I have seen Tapes and books of Wenglish
usually in Welsh Shops or Museum Shops.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:44 PM

There is actually a website devoted to Wenglish, but whoever put it up hasn't included any content yet, so it's a fairly pointless exercise. Perhaps at some point it will be of some use, though; it is at http://wenglish.org/.

More useful is http://talktidy.com/about.html, which, though not well designed, does contain a glossary which can be accessed via the alphabetical 'buttons' at the top of the main page. It mentions two books which you might perhaps find helpful: Talk Tidy and More Talk Tidy, by John Edwards, who reckons to have coined the term 'Wenglish'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Patrick Mulhall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:08 PM

The old black pig is dead, Mom & Dad are crying...
Gramma "Nain" sang it to me
she was born in Patagonia...
I'd like to find this song...
phonetics went somethik like:
Mohin ditch e wedy marow mam and da in cree on arow... (excuse my french!)
mu email
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM

I would decipher that along the lines of,

Mochyn du sydd wedi marw;
Mam a Dad yn crio'n arw.

I'm sure I've heard the full verse somewhere but it isn't in the book I have to hand. Indeed, it may be one of the verses that have been added in 'the folk process' so it might not be written down in any of the formal collections.

I'm interested in your Nain being born in Patagonia. The inference is that she moved from there and you're resident of elsewhere. I'd be curious to know a bit more ...

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:57 PM

Can anyone post the tune for this, either as MIDI, abc or link?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 07:13 PM

this song is the tune to Cosher Bailley

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 09:27 AM

Thanks, goatfell.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Tom Shoener
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 12:28 PM

What is the melody like?? What chords might work?? Thanks

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Aug 09 - 03:18 PM

Tune for Cosher Bailey
Fom the DT Mirror site

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 12:02 PM

Holy cow (or pig?) that "Tune for Cosher Bailey" has a fermata everywhere! I've never played Black Pig with any.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:30 AM

You're right, Mooh. Those fermata(ae?) (as?) are really annoying. Generally, I think we all sing the piece, in a community situation, with a regular rhythm. To dictate held notes is just silly. Leave it up to the individual singer to do what they want with 'their' verse when it comes their turn. There's always a touch of control-freakery about 'dots'.

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Welsh Roberts
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:37 AM

I just found this forum/website! My Welsh "Grandmother" Annie Owen/s Billing from Old Valley near Holyhead used to sing this song to me and now I want to learn and sing it to my grandchildren. I have a baritone Uke still from college days and have resurrected it. Grandma Billing's father was a William Owen/s and he was a butcher. She came over here to the USA with her husband Fred and son Osborne. They were close friends of my parents (not actual relatives) as my grandmother Helen Jane Roberts was from Caernarfon and the Roberts knew the Owens family in Wales.
I wonder if David Lewis' grandfather who wrote this song is related to the William Owen/s ancestors of Annie? I suppose not...so many Owe/Owens in Wales...!

Please help me find an authentic recording online of the song...and more verses...posts above indicate there are 12...
Thanks!

Welsh Roberts

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,David Lewis re Welsh Roberts comment
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

There is a fun recording of the song in Welsh by a band called Moniars available - it's pretty rocking!! The CD is called Hyd'noed nain yn dawnsio and is on Sain/Crai CD52 (issued in 1995).

I find that my version of the song - inauthentic though it is (thuogh I did get approval from a Welsh aunt - goes down quite well with kids!

David

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM

My Dad taught me a version of this. The words are:

Mochyn du sydd wedi marw
Dad a Mam yn crio'n arw
Wedi ei gladdu yn y berllan
Gyda'i drwyn yn sticio allan

O mor drwm y rydym ni
O mor drwm y rydym ni
Dad a Mam s'yn crio'n arw
Wedi claddu'r mochyn du



roughly translated means:

The black pig has died
Mum and Dad are crying
They buried him in the orchard
With his nose sticking out

Oh how heavy hearted we are
Oh how heavy hearted we are
Mum and Dad are crying a lot
After burying the black pig

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Huwcyn
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:39 AM

Or:

Caeth ei gladdu yn y berllan
Gydai'n dîn yn sticio allan.

He was buried in the orchard,
With his backside pointing skyward.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 06:09 AM

Does anyone know of any chanty-style recordings of this that they could point me to ?(or any style recording with the 2 chanty verses, i.e. as presented by Stan Hugill = 1. "Redodd Dito i Llwyncelyn..." 2. "Melws iawn yw cael rheu seliscen...")

Also, has this been cited anywhere as being used as a chanty, besides Hugill?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Polly
Date: 20 Mar 21 - 01:27 AM

My children’s nain from Penmachno used to sing this. She translated the last verse for me:
The old black pig has died,
We are all so glum today
We have buried him in the orchard
And the tip of his tail is sticking out.

Haha

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Mar 21 - 01:56 PM

There's a YouTube video of a Welsh band singing this. Just search for Mochyn Du.

If you Google this:

Mochyn Du sheet music

you can see a page of the Musescore site which provides the notes and some lyrics.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Y Mochyn Du / Old Black Pig (Welsh)
From: GUEST,Pondgirl
Date: 11 Sep 24 - 12:52 PM

We know a pig song to this tune as well in English, about baseball pitcher Bobby Thigpen. As far as we know the pitcher doesn’t actually have a private pigpen, but the song is still fun to sing.

The verses are funny couplets, the chorus seems to be a call to porcinism. As my mom said once “When do the trees NOT have twigs?”


So without further ado,



BOBBY THIGPEN


Have you heard of Bobby Thigpen,
Well he had a lovely pigpen,
Since the pigs were always chattin’,
Bought a handbook in Pig Latin?

Chorus:
When the trees have twigs,
When the trees have twigs,
When the trees have twigs,
It is time to save the pigs!

He had his own private pigpen,
Well, at least it once was private,
‘Til he bought his own pig trailer,
And he taught the pigs to drive it!

Bobby trained his pet pig Ponda
To watch films with Henry Fonda,
And if someone tried to spoil it,
She would push them in the duckpond!   

Bobby Thigpen had two sistas,
And they both were porcinistas,
They’d go out and save the pigs,
Every night in different wigs!

Never visit Bobby Thigpen,
For his house is quite a pigpen,
All you’ll hear is oinks and squealing,
And there’s pig tracks on the ceiling!

Well he had a pig named Mabel,
Sick and tired of her stable,
She went jumping over pigpens
‘Til she flipped the kitchen table!

Well he taught his pig to fly,
With a jetpack in the sky,
And according to the theories,
That’s the year he won World Series!