BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'

Subject: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:24 AM

This is just precious.

Choice quote being 'Mr Camping said he felt "terrible" about his mistake.'

brb, going to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:43 AM

A sterling model of a man willing to take responsibility when he screws up. By screwing up again!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:00 AM

Just because HE wasn't swept to heaven doesn't mean it didn't happen.
The non-righteous will not be taken...
Perhaps he ought to start looking at his conscience...







Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:30 AM

Evidently he's now shooting for October 21st.

It's so hard to get the math right!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:37 AM

His math was right, he just didn't have a ticket. Shacking up in a motel...tsk, tsk!

But I think he should be guilty of, at least, defrauding people of their life's savings. But of course he won't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:47 AM

Camping is an idiot, and finds empowerment in deceiving people!
If he did his homework, he would have never come up with that shit in the first place!..Instead of admitting he was wrong, and taking steps to correct the damage he's done, he just keeps going! He's a teachers alright.....people should learn to ignore deceptive morons like that!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:01 AM

Hey, if this is heaven why are there still exam-

Bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Musket
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:07 AM

Charley Noble reckons it's hard to get the math right.

It's even harder to get the maths right...

Rule Britannia and all that.....

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: frogprince
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:08 AM

But what "homework" would you expect him to do? Fundamentalists trying to predict the future from the Bible are working from so many layers of indefensible premises that I wouldn't have the heart to start wading through it all.

I generally consider people like Camping to be "dual diagnosis" cases; dumb as a box of rocks, with some measure of mental illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:54 AM

He wasn't defrauding them, Rapparee, if he genuinely believed what he was telling them, and I think it's pretty obvious that he does believe in what he says. He's merely grossly mistaken, that's all. The end result may be the same as if he had defrauded them, but it's not fraud unless he deliberately meant to defraud people.

Like many other people with rigid beliefs (religious or otherwise), he was led astray by his own belief system and his own enthusiasm. The same can be said of his followers. They all put their faith on a shaky and questionable foundation, and they have all been disappointed accordingly. The same might be said of the many millions of people who once put their faith in Adolf Hitler. They made a serious error in judgement. Such errors are innocently made by millions of people every day in this world, but they usually don't get as much publicity as this prediction of Harold Camping's did. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 May 11 - 12:54 PM

Frogprince, I'm unsure as to a connection between Fundamentalists and making date/time calculations.

As far as I have understood it, the term points more to a strict literal bible believing type although the term also seems to me to be rather curiously entangled with (far?) right wing American politics...

The reason why I'm questioning here is that my guess would be that Fundamentalists would be very much in line with (I'd imagine) the vast majority of Christians on this. As such I would expect the usage of verses such as Mark 13:32 ("No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father".) to argue that the bible is clear in that this sort of calculation is impossible.

Maybe Campings followers are something else? (I don't know - I'm asking),

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:31 PM

On the other hand, working out who the beast is, that became clear to me!

It's actually a lot simpler than most realise. We use the Roman Alphabet and score A=1, B=2, C=3. We now need to weight this according to the importance of the names.

Each letter in a surname counts as 6 for a "beast number"

(main) forename name counts as 2 to (a beast number divided by 1/2 a beast number or 6/3)

With other names only the initials are counted again as 2 but if but if they are "unused" ( eg. John H Smith may only be referred to as John Smith) as they are "rejected", they must be negated, ie. -2.

I tried it and I found this:

K = 11 x -2 = -22
  
  
  R = 18 x  2 =  36
  
  U = 21 x  2 =  42
  
  P = 16 x  2 =  32
  
  E =  5 x  2 =  10
  
  R = 18 x  2 =  36
  
  T = 20 x  2 =  40
  
  
  M = 13 x  6 =  78
  
  U = 21 x  6 = 126
  
  R = 18 x  6 = 108
  
  D =  4 x  6 =  24
  
  O = 15 x  6 =  90
  
  C =  3 x  6 =  18
  
  H =  8 x  6 =  48
  
                ---
  
               666

(Well it was the best I could come up with in a quick play a month or so ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:40 PM

he he he guy in a bar after the Rapture... hey, anybody see that priest I walked in here with?

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 11 - 02:58 PM

And Chongo at the APP campaign headquarters....

"Hey, where did everybody go?"

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Bill D
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:15 PM

Little Hawk said it right...

"Like many other people with rigid beliefs (religious or otherwise), he was led astray by his own belief system and his own enthusiasm. The same can be said of his followers. They all put their faith on a shaky and questionable foundation, and they have all been disappointed accordingly....

This is the LONG version (well...close) of something I have posted several times. A basic principle of logic is:
From false premises, anything follows!

The implications of that are important. IF you base an analysis on premises that are not TRUE, you can come up with almost any conclusion! Thus, IF he had a bad translation of the Bible, and/or IF he read the wrong parts, and/or IF he 'interpreted' it carelessly, and/or......IF that Bible never was, in fact the revealed Word, it is possible to derive almost any course of action, belief structure, theological convolution or personal opinion from it!

Because the key word in Camping's philosophy is **BELIEF** (he does not 'know' that he has all the right premises--or ANY of the right, true premises, his **BELIEF** can hardly be more than wishful thinking based on bad reading of a doubtful source! Now...why humans get themselves into such awkward predicaments is a matter for Psychology. It is sorta natural to 'wish' one had one easy source, with no ambiguities, for all their serious questions, but it-just-don't-work-that-way.


(Note...it is entirely possible to HAVE true premises and still get everything wrong thru careless logic...but the way to approach reason is: IF conclusions are not working, the first thing to suspect IS that you have started with false premises....but again, psychology can help explain why that is so hard to do!)

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:31 PM

Harry Camping is sommat I just would not do. You could meet your maker in bear country. Of course, if I had a dachsund I would go. One could always throw the dog at the bear and run. Rapture that ya big wooly bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 11 - 07:03 PM

Many of the more progressive scripture scholars speculate that 666 is the numerical value of the name of "Neron Caesar" (Nero), who was notorious for his persecutions. I do like Jon's "Rupert Murdoch" speculation, however. Progressive theologians tend to see the Book of Revelation as written primarily for first-century Christians who were facing Roman persecution. Progressives see the apocalyptic writings as also having meaning for all time, since we all face cataclysmic, "apocalyptic" events in our lives.
Evangelicals tend to see the Book of Revelation and other apocalyptic writings as predicting the imminent but future end of the world. Progressives don't usually buy into predictions, although they can see value in predicting the logical consequences of actions.
"Apocalypse," by the way, comes from the Greek word meaning simply "lifting of the veil" or "revelation."

I added a bit to the thread title because chances are good that nobody is going to know who the hell Harold Camping is, once his 15 minutes of fame are up. I thought they were up at the end of the day on May 21, but I see that he has found a way to extend his time a little longer.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 May 11 - 07:21 PM

A few years ago Oxford scholars revealed that several early manuscripts give the "Number of the Beast" as "616."

So whose name does that fit? And how could one or the other get it so wrong?

Shouldn't important information like the Number of the Beast be impossible to confuse?

Or is it not important at all except to tempt false prophets into making false prophecies?

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 11 - 07:57 PM

Hi, Lighter-
I'm not sure the Number of the Beast makes a whole lot of difference. To my mind, it's a poetic thing, not meant to be taken literally. I think apocalyptic writings (like poetry) are meant to challenge and provoke the imagination and the intellect - not to give any definitive answers. Same with most sacred writings - and when we view them as absolute, we betray their primary purpose, which is to challenge us to think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 11 - 08:15 PM

I'm sure it's the math. Maybe he forgot to invert the divisor before multiplying. That used to nail me every-time in 4th grade. Or maybe the solution involved one of those dreaded quadratic equations...

I do give Camping credit for hanging around after May 21 for interviews. Shit, if I'd made such a colossal blunder I'd have sunk into the ground.

Charley Noble, still here

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 May 11 - 08:17 PM

If the world doesn't end on October 21, 2011, Mr. Camping will probably push his dire prediction further into the future. What will happen if the next date he comes up with is December 21, 2012? That date is already claimed as The End by those who ascribe import to the end of the Mayan calendar. It would be battle royal between the evangelical fundies and the dope smoking heathens over whether Doomsday is being brought to you courtesy of Jehovah or Cthulhu.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 May 11 - 08:47 PM

I just had a vision of a ring announcer at a wrestling match...

"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The End-Of-the-World Championship title match! In this corner, wearing white trunks and carrying a rod and a staff, JEHOVAH, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM! And in this corner, wearing red trunks, poisonous fangs and really nasty tentacles, CTHULHU HIGH PRIEST TO THE GREAT OLD ONES!"

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: frogprince
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:38 PM

Jon, in my experience it has been only fundamentalist Christians who in any way predict a specific sequence of future events based on the Bible. The majority of them do realize that the Bible says they cannot predict the dates of any of those events. But many of that majority get caught up in a tendency to see current events as generalized evidence that the "end time" events are very near.

As Joe noted, progressive Christians see the lessons of Revelation and such material more as timeless. You could say that those writings are not so much predicting historic events as using symbolic language to describe the nature of all human history from a Christian perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:32 AM

Thanks frogprince.

My own feeling re Revelations is that it contains past and future events but I can't unravel it. On an individual level I don't think it would make a lot of difference anyway. We don't know our own time.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:22 AM

My mother, who had studied theology for a Bishop's Certificate, advised me not to give credence to people who preached based on Daniel, Revelation, and/or Matthew Ch 24. Having read them, I agree with her (obviously grounded in the ideas Joe has put forward above) - apart from the part where Jesus says no-one knows when except the Father.

There are more important teachings.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:29 AM

Surely he should say "Cuckoo".

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:32 AM

Oh no, this quote makes me giggle more: "Harold Camping, the voice of Family Radio in Oregon, USA, today announced that the rapture had in fact started, but we couldn't see it because it was "invisible"."

Oh Camping, you so silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:58 AM

I love it! Invisibility solves everything! "What? You haven't received my VISA payment? Well, I sent you an invisible check!"

Seriously, most of us outgrow the idea of "invisibility" by age eight or so. Tossing it around only adds "immature" to the growing list of adjectives one might apply to Mr. Camping's preachings.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: DMcG
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:34 AM

My favourite quotation is 'a "merciful and compassionate God" would spare humanity by compressing the apocalyptic destruction into a shorter time frame'

I have to say that doesn't sound terribly compassionate to me. I can imagine myself in a court: "Yes, I did torture xxx people, but in my defence I did it in a few weeks when I'd intended to take a few months over it."

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:58 AM

That defense would work because it would have to be a jury of His peers. What happens to *you* in a man-created court is your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:15 AM

g i g o

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: frogprince
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:48 AM

SOME of the underlying problems with fundamentalist prophetic interpretation.:

Even among fundamentalists, most recognize that Daniel and Revelation are full of highly symbolic material. But as soon as an isolated line appears which it is possible to interpret in a strictly literal manner, many fundamentalists will do so.

Daniel and Revelation were written far apart in time, each relating to a very different historic context. But to a fundamentalist, the total body of material must fit together into one coherent picture of the future. It takes a pretty big hammer to make all of those jigsaw pieces fit. For a large portion of American fundamentalism, "Dispensationalist" interpretation has become that hammer.

Perhaps even more basic: to a fundamentalist, nothing that any Biblical author thought or foresaw can simply be wrong . They cannot accept that the writers were normal, fallible human beings, immersed in the culture of their time, trying to interpret their understanding of God and of their relationship to Him.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 11 - 11:27 AM

Courtesy of Tom Lehrer, "We'll All Go Together When We Go":

"When it's time for the fall-out,
And St. Peter calls us all out,
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn!"

Charley Noble, still present

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:08 PM

In all of this, I feel bad that I'm laughing at it.

The other part of me is going "Yeah!"

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:34 PM

A great deal of what happens to us in life is invisible...which is to say, it occurs within our inner thoughts, our inner emotions, possibly in our spirit (debatable), in our moral awareness and our philosophical structure, etc...but not in a way that can be outwardly seen.

On the other hand, you certainly can't use invisibility as proof that something like "the Rapture" HAS happened. ;-) Nor can anyone prove, on the other hand, that it hasn't either....but one can have an opinion based on probabilities.

I think it's highly improbable that the Rapture has occurred, but in an invisible manner. I might be wrong. More likely, Mr Camping is wrong.

In any case, whatever people are expressing here is (as usual) just their danged opinion....and their opinion usually reflects exactly what they already believed (and wanted to believe) before the subject of the discussion ever came up in the first place.

This is true of Mr Camping, and it's true of all of us who are having fun here at his expense. We are all merely recycling and regurgitating our usual set of beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:42 PM

Not good to mislead people on those levels regarding spirituality! There's a 'big ticket' to pay for that one!...
..but then, had anyone of his 'lemming followers' had a REAL experience with God, they would have clocked him instantly, without a second thought!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:10 PM

``had anyone of his 'lemming followers' had a REAL experience with God, they would have clocked him instantly, without a second thought!``


None of his followers ever DID have a second thought. And there`s the rub!

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: frogprince
Date: 25 May 11 - 02:41 PM

"had anyone of his 'lemming followers' had a REAL experience with God, they would have clocked him instantly, without a second thought!"

Ok, so what does that statement mean in real life?

Which of us gets to define a REAL experience with God, or discredit what someone else feels is real?

If one has had a REAL experience with God, does that immediately impart so much wisdom to him that he could never be mislead regarding anything spiritual again?

I can't help feeling that the implication is that GFS has had such a "REAL" experience, and is therefore well qualified to interpret the mind of God for the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:10 PM

>If one has had a REAL experience with God, does that immediately impart so much wisdom to him that he could never be mislead regarding anything spiritual again?

There are many people who believe exactly that.

I know some of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:55 PM

You are asking questions, frogprince, which can only be answered (for you) by YOUR own direct experience.

If one has any kind of direct experience, one then has confidence in having had that experience (whether it's a "religious" experience or any other type of experience). To express that confidence is NOT to assume some kind of implied superiority over other people, and need not be interpreted as such. It does not imply "greater wisdom". It's simply an honest statement of having had one's own experience, period. Other people need not conform to it, they are not bound by it, and they need not react in a hostive fashion against it.

A good way to maintain peace of mind is not to be bothered by the fact that many other people don't happen to believe the things you believe...or disbelieve the things you disbelieve.

Why should they believe what you believe? And why should you believe what they believe? People will always have a great variety of differing beliefs, it's inevitable that they will, it makes for an interesting world, and that's just fine with me, because that's life.    Life is made beautiful by variety, NOT by conformity...to either your view or mine or someone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:57 PM

that should have read "hostile", not "hostive".

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:02 PM

Well, I was there in the 60s. I think.

So I suppose I had "experiences".

Did that make them real?

Camping is simply barking mad and a threat to a rational society.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:31 PM

"If one has any kind of direct experience,"

No one has any sort of "direct experience"... ever. Everything "you" perceive is filtered through the "you" of immediately before and creates a new "you". You are indeed the sum of your preconditioning and your interpretation of external events via that preconditioning.

Y(z) = AX(z)+ BY(z-1)
where z represents a unit time... usually not a constant sampling rate in wet systems. A and B are probably less than 1.

That's the simplest form... you'll recognise that as a filter perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:44 PM

froggers: "Ok, so what does that statement mean in real life?
Which of us gets to define a REAL experience with God, or discredit what someone else feels is real?"

You'd know, if you had one...just ask..sincerely...as if your life depended on it...then you wouldn't be asking me, to interpret it for you....and then accusing me of trying to do it!~.....but if you get an answer..DON'T IGNORE IT!....or write it off...but then again, once you do, you can't. Sorry if I couldn't give you an answer to pick apart..but then again, I'm not sorry!

Many of us have experiences with God every day..but were blinded by our selfish little world, and once you've had that experience, it WON'T fit into that personal self-absorbed little world.

You can take my word for it, or get your own!

GfS

P.S. You might even get a new sense of humor, as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:03 PM

What I mean by "direct experience" is that it was your experience. Not any one else's. Yours. Your unique private and personal experience.

We all tend to trust our own experiences, and how we choose to interpret them. That's why I don't particularly make it my business to cast judgement on someone else's personal experiences. I'm in no position to, not having had their personal experiences. It would be nice if other people would extend the same courtesy in return and not presume to judge my experiences or others' experiences (but they very often do not extend that courtesy...they'd much rather hector and abuse everyone else into seeing things their way...this indicates nothing but their own insecurity). Do not tell such people anything that is close your heart, because it's a bit like waving your hand in front of a hornet's nest. It's best not to draw the attention of hornets and of hostile, insecure people. They sting.

Messianic types like Mr Camping are so caught up in the imagined importance of their perceived mission that they risk waving their arms in front of all the hornets in the world (and a few of those hornets will willingly follow them too). That's a damn risky path for anyone to take in life. You'd have to have a pretty thick skin. He now says that the world will end on October 21st, so he intends to keep following his risky path. Better him than me. ;-)

If I thought the world was going to end (I don't think so) I certainly would not make my thoughts about it public! That's like painting a huge bullseye on your chest and saying, "Aim here."

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:14 PM

I'm fascinated by the idea that these experiences are "unmistakable" but that so few people seem to have them.

Doesn't an unmistakable, divinely inspired experience violate one's free will to choose wrong?

If not, why doesn't everybody have them? Why are some chosen, only to be widely regarded as deluded?

And why is, say, the Pope's experience so different from a devout Muslim's or Jew's?

Or is it that some of the above only *think* they've had an unmistakable personal experience?

But if that's true, then no such experience is really "unmistakable" and we're back where we started.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:18 PM

"If not, why doesn't everybody have them?"

Gee whiz. Campin explained it... "invisible". What don't you understand about "invisible."?

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 10:54 PM

Well, lighter, when you have yours, I guess you'll get the answer, to your questions.


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: frogprince
Date: 25 May 11 - 11:41 PM

I would bet a dollar to a donut that Campin "knows" that he has had a personal experience with God, and that if Campin knew GFS, he would "know" that if GFS had had such an experience, GFS would see things more like he does.

And I may need a new sense of humor, but GFS needs the ability to recognize the two rhetorical questions I asked in my last post. No one can define any one elses genuine encounter with God, apart from recognizing alleged divine encounters that lead to obvious madness. And having a genuine encounter with God does not automatically make anyone immune from all error or human folly.

Subject: RE: BS: Rapture News: Camping says 'Oops'
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:40 AM

>And having a genuine encounter with God does not automatically make anyone immune from all error or human folly.

And shouldn't it? Or at least from all *crucial* error and folly?

Think about it. Judging from *their actions alone* (other than religious observances) could you tell which people you know are atheists, agnostics, or believers?

There are criminals and lunatics across the board, as well as saints and people in between.

My guess is that you'll find a higher proportion of real self-sacrificing "saints" (like Mother Teresa) among the believers, but all that might prove is that self-sacrificing, saintly people are more likely to express themeselves through religion. And Mother Teresa seems to have believed - for fifty years - that God was not real or had abandoned her, or that her faith was insufficient.

Does that make any sense at all? Why should God allow her to feel that way if she's devoting her entire existence to His service, living in poverty, helping the sick and wretched?

Didn't Mother Teresa have a "divine encounter" when she was "called" to be a nun? You'd think so.

Was she a believer, an agnostic, or a reluctant atheist? Who knows? Does it matter? She was still a saint.