BS: La France: Oui ou Non?

Subject: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:19 AM

France votes on Sunday to ratify the European Union Constitution - or not.

I haven't noticed a French presence in our forum, so I invite the participation of our French and French speaking members.

From what little I know of the situation, the European Union Constitution is well over 400 pages long, a citizen's nightmare and a bureaucrat's joy. By contrast, the United States Constitution, with Bill of Rights, is only a few pages long (and you can get a free download of it for your iPOD), is readily comprehensible to the average citizen, and can be memorized much more easily than your average Qu'ran.

This is indicative of the different history and mode of thinking between Americans and Europeans.

For the very young United States, the Constitution was to be used as a political as well as formative document. The United States had existed for 13 years already under the Articles of Confederation, but was experiencing disunity and disharmony under the system. Installing a more powerful central government was a huge risk, and perceived as such. "The Federalist Papers" give insight into the thought process of The Framers. In order to promote the document, it was made readily comprehensible to the average literate person, and put to debate and explanation.

By contrast, the European Union comes to unity after 'having tried everything else' in particular, World Wars 1 and 2. The contrast of the model of the United States as a way to keep a huge land mass in order has not been lost on Europe, but getting large cultural diverse natioins to cooperate is a monumental task

Perhaps bureaucracy is the only feasible way to do it. Nevertheless the average French Citizen is unlikely to feel particularly positive in approving a document that reads like a tax code.

I believe Great Britian has been sitting this one out. But isn't it perceived as inevitable? And isn't it better than the past centuries of strife?

Oui ou Non?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:43 AM

We *do* have a "LaFrance" presence here, robo- I was wondering about the ontent of this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:08 PM

Well it's taken France a long time to get round to feeling like I've been made to feel by the EEC for a long time, and that's insignificant. For so long France and Germany ruled the roost in this cosy little multi national beaureacracy, and made the rules which our civil servants gold plated, while theirs ignored them. Can you see us getting off with continueing a ban on French beef, or burning lorries loaded with German Bratwurst? Of course not, but they seem to pull strokes like that with impunity. Now that the EEC has expanded to 25 countries France too is beginning to feel insignificant, and they don't like it. Why can't we have common market without all the top heavy rules and regs? Why is it that our steel works were closed down because there was enough steel being produced in the EEC but farmers are allowed to grow whatever they want to attract the biggest subsidies and thus produce wine lakes, and sugar beet mountains. Our fishing fleets are being decimated, while othe market members receive subsidies to build boats which they then send into UK waters to catch fish which are shipped back to their home countries with very little checking for quotas or size limits here and none at all at home. The whole thing is over regulated under policed and open to abuse and fiddling, it's a great idea badly executed.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:18 PM

Just to boil yer neeps even more, Giok, I was involved (I won't say how specifically) with two inane EU transactions in the early 80s that involved over-production of butter and milk. Because of the guaranteed price system the butter had to be sold for 5% of what it sold for in the UK ... to the Soviet Union(!) and because the butter lake was saturated (pardon the pun) milk processing was switched to making powdered milk, which nobody wanted, which was then vitamin-enriched and ... fed back to the cows!

Keeps people busy though, Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: DougR
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:25 PM

Interesting thread, Robo, thanks for posting it. I've read a few reports in the newspaper and from what I gather, the Constitution is in trouble. Opinions?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:31 PM

I want you to know my favorite French foods:

French toast
French Fries
French's mustard
French onion soup

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 May 05 - 02:59 PM

There have been some interesting observations by Journalists and Commentators whom I respect. T. R. Reid in "The United States Of Europe", who observes significant trends already in existence, such as the impressively strong trade bloc that has been formed and already can and does dictate to companies in the United States how they conduct their business. Thomas Friedman on the Discovery Channel talked with a French policy maker on how American cosmetics companies have been forced to make expensive changes to their formulas to avoid using chemicals which 'may' be harmful according to European standards. Friedman observed to the man how these fine restrictions may look silly to an American who visits a typical French cafe and can barely breathe in the cigarette dense atmosphere.

What we're seeing this weekend represents internal political stresses which are fascinating but I don't have the background to explain why the French would vote down a Constitution that presumably they had a large part in creating. But perhaps there has been a division between the (bureaucratic?) writers of the Constitution and the average people of France, the kind successfully avoided by the folks who brought the wonderfully simple American Constitution to their people.

Yet again, maybe this is the only way an already established region of countries can come to an agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 May 05 - 03:08 PM

The writers of the American constitution were willing and proud to sign their names at the bottom of the document which is more than you'll ever get from the faceless civil servants who drafted the dog's dinner that is the proposed European Constitution. BTW smoking in cafes restaurants etc is now banned in France thank goodness, and has been for quite a while now.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 May 05 - 04:21 PM

United States of Europe?? It will never be united, and never controlled by Europeans.. As Giok clearly states, the writers of the US Constitution were justifiably proud of their accomplishments, and gave a model to the world. The French couldnt arrange a piss up in a brewery if you gave them the key and a week to plan it.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 May 05 - 04:25 PM

I also like French Fried onion rings and French Fried shrimp.

French vanilla ice cream is wonderful.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 05 - 04:15 AM

and French kissing?

you obviously have some Gallic blood. I'd apply for a 2nd nationality status.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 05 - 06:38 AM

there seems to be a degree of consternation amongst the people who want us to leave the common market that the French are thinking of leaving.

france is a big place. they should be okay on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 09:49 AM

According to the WSJ, as I recall, some factors appear to be resentment of "Brussels" dictating policy in quite a few areas, fear of being priced out of the market by being forced to let cheaper goods in from new EU members, and a desire to "send Chirac a message" about unhappiness with a high rate of unemployment.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 May 05 - 01:18 PM

I'm not seeing signs of French posters in the forum. Is there a "Mudchat?" ;-).

Anyhoo, NPR has run several articles on the coming vote, and while it seems to favor 'non' which would mean the European Constitution is NOT adopted, I guess I've picked up a couple of points.

There are doubts that Holland would approve it anyhow.

In France, many people are motivated by local concerns, so they are voting 'non' as a means of registering disapproval of their own government. To me this seems a parallel case of the one last year where the Spanish voted out their pro-war government for an anti-war government after the train station terror bombings, saying in part it was a reaction to the standing government trying to blame Basque nationalists for the terror. In other words, there are issues framing the election that are not directly concerned with the specific object of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 05 - 01:22 PM

That's what I said--"send Chirac a message".

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 05 - 01:45 PM

So now the Conservative party knows what it has to do to win the next election!
G..

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:49 PM

I don't think so. They made the anti Europe thing pretty big deal in the election before last, and the one before that. And they got stuffed both times.

its the way they tell it - sort of re-fighting world war 2, and keep the pound, bring back Anthony Eden and stanley matthews, warm beer, and wogs start at Calais.....

its not so much that world's moved on......I don't think anyone was ever where they were.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 05 - 05:18 PM

Does anyone think French perfume is overrated?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 May 05 - 05:45 PM

Would England ever 'affiliate' with the US in a formal sense? Has the question ever come up. I ask because there seems to have been a long term question of whether the English are European or something 'else'. And of course, there's the 'special' relationship between UK and US.

We could be like Orwell's Oceania

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 05 - 06:08 PM

Time Gladiator... Mack Reynolds.
G..

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 May 05 - 04:24 PM

Well, the returns are in: Exit polling, presumed to be accurate, has led all the authorities to conclude that it's "Non" to the European Constitution by a 55 to 45 percent.

The 'antis' are partying like it was "Mille Neuf-Cents Quarante Dix-Neuf"! at Place De La Bastille.

If there had been more participation in this thread I would have started a new one to discuss the ramifications, but it doesn't sound like we have anyone that interested or informed, so I'll just post here for now and hope to learn something.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 May 05 - 08:36 PM

The results are definite. The French have rejected the treaty 55 to 45 %

This is probably good for everybody, especially the French. I wonder, once the Dutch, as now looks increasingly probable, and the British, reject it, how many more times we will be asked to vote on it it until we get to the 'correct' answer...

I'm not Anti-European, but am very opposed to the E.U. in its current form, ie a badly structered mess of agricultural subsidies, with a rapidly expanding and extrainious set of politicians and bureacrats attached.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 May 05 - 09:42 PM

One of the results, I've read, is that the euro is likely to plunge--probably vis a vis the dollar. Will there be any effect on the pound?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 May 05 - 10:21 PM

Non. And how can the dollar fall any farther????

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 May 05 - 11:43 PM

It'll be interesting to see what the Euro does, but I think overall this has to be a correctional bump in the road, nothing worse. Europe is developing a formidable union in its economy and this has to be considered a good thing for them. Now I'm wondering what the Dutch would have against the European Constitution.

Wouldn't this be a good time for UK to get in, sort of steal some French thunder?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 30 May 05 - 12:08 AM

The French will naturaly blame the English even though other countries have reservations for different reasons. I am happy to see that it has been rejected but it does not mean that the beauraucrats in Brussels will take any notice. They have a habit of ignoring any calls from common folk for openess and responsibility. Viz their expenses accounts etc.

It might be a wake up call for some of the governments to think harder about ever closer links.

The beauraucrats do not want to hand over power to the elected members of the European Parliament because that might mean er....democracy...something the EU has not really been about.

As for the Euro not a bad idea when it was planned and implemented but France, Germany, Italy, Greece, Portugal have all breached its 5 criteria with no kind of comeback.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 May 05 - 01:11 AM

Does that mean the French will have real chocolate again?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 05 - 01:50 AM

Perhaps as a friendly gesture we could rename Waterloo station something more francophile - Escargot Cuttings, Sacha Distel Junction......

I'm not sure I understand a world where France doesn't want to be boss of the common market........what have we done to offend them?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 May 05 - 01:58 AM

shanghaiceltic:

I don't know about the "5 criteria" of the Euro. Would you mind explaining it or directing me to some informative material?

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 May 05 - 04:23 AM

The audit commission has refused to agree the accounts of the EEC for several years now, and the woman who called attention to corruption and graft within the organisation has found herself vilified from all sides including by our own 'dear' Neil Kinnock, and now no longer works for the EEC. The whole organisation [sic] is a lunatic gravy train, it makes hundreds of laws/rules etc which some countries regard as a pick-and-mix obeying those they like and ignoring the others. While the UK slavishly follows these rules, France continues to ignore the EEC ruling on the import of British Beef, and Italy and Germany ignore the rules regarding national debt as a percentage of their GDP. It's certainly a club which Groucho Marx wouldn't have joined, which is a pity really because he was a better comedian than those who run it at present.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 May 05 - 09:22 AM

I'm listening to some BBC man in the street, or should I say dans l'rue interviews. The losers are assuming that there will be another vote, that this cannot stand. The interviewer is saying, "The people have spoken, aren't you going to listen to them?" and one of the answers is: "When you ask a woman to marry, perhaps she says 'no', you will ask again, non?"

Superficially I look at the importance of Europe realizing it is better off together, but with the incredible officialese of the multi hundred page constitutional document, I can see inherent resentment at having this foisted upon 'the people'. And the cooperation of the political extremes right and left to muster opposition shows this to be a pretty complicated situation.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 05 - 11:31 AM

This is Jan speaking:

I'm starting from Bradford on Avon station: one return ticket to Escargot Cuttings, passing through Sascha Distel Junction, please.

Brilliant!

It would make my day to be able to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 May 05 - 11:35 AM

Regarding the euro--what I was suggesting was that the euro is likely to fall against the dollar, not that the dollar would fall against any specific currency.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 May 05 - 12:44 PM

I notice that the introduction of a single currency within the majority of the EEC has driven several banks to the wall as a result of the loss of their commission from money changing activities.
In your dreams sunshine!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 30 May 05 - 06:06 PM

Just heard that despite a no vote the Brussles Sprouts will still go ahead. Just as I said, not a democratic acceptance of what people do or do not want.

The criteria the so called stability & growth pack set limts for a Euro Zone members inflation, borrowing, etc. Many have busted it. There were meant to have been severe fines imposed for those that did. No member so far who has broken it has stumped up.

Euro Zone

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 05 - 06:22 PM

LOL, Ebbie. As a "LaFrance" in name, I'd have to say "Oui!"

chatlaughing:-)

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 05 - 07:37 PM

banks driven to the wall....the best place for them! show me the wall and I'll drive them there personally, and the inland revenue!

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 05 - 08:10 PM

Good to see that there is still one little corner of the world where national protest has not been completely extinguished.
The biggest constituent in the no vote was apparently the young French Socialists, who voted as a protest against Globalisation and all the horrors that will stem from it.

Blair and the British government will attempt to use this vote to their own advantage and make sure that any new constitution is more to their liking...ie..Less social content and more unfettered capitalism, the exact opposite of what the protesters in France really want!!....Aren't politicians devious bastards.

Hope the Youth of Britain will take a lead from their French brothers and sisters and give Global Capitalism another good kicking on July 8th at Gleneagles.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 05 - 02:16 AM

I don't see how the vote really effects the phenomenon of Globalization. All it does is make Europe a weaker player vis-a-vis the US and the rest of the world (Asia).

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 05 - 03:18 AM

Maybe the young pewople are beginningto realise they just dont want to play that game any longer,as the tactics get murkier and the umpire has gone for his dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 May 05 - 03:40 AM

From what I can see the EECs aim is to be a counterbalance to the US, and that was the big dream of the founding fathers. So maybe the fear of those who voted against the new constitution was that Eorope would end up like the US!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: GUEST,robomatic (backdoor)
Date: 31 May 05 - 02:14 PM

I think you gents are being deliberately simplistic, but that doesn't help me who wants to learn. I've been listening to public radio so I know I've heard something worthwhile.........(;-)).

Anyhoo:
1) From the Extreme Left: Anti-Globalization, fear of cheap labor.
2) From the middle: Resentment at the existing unelected bureacracy and fear of an even worse one ahead; Resentment at local political leaders (not directly related to the vote); Resistance to adopting such a dense and unromantic document as a 'constitution'.
3) From the Extreme Right: Anti-Globalization, fear of foreign immigration and increasing multi-culturalism. Hope that this decreases Turkey's chance of joining.

Overall outlook: This might appear to be mildly beneficial to the US on a selfish trade-barrier basis, but in reality it is overall perceived as a weakness of "The West" in an age where there are significant forces in play to further weaken "The West." So in the broader view and over the long term, this is not good for the US.

For UK I suspect the same as for the US. The UK is supposed to be voting on the Constitution later. I'm not up on the polls.

Comments invited!

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 31 May 05 - 02:26 PM

The thing that gets me is that France started the whole EU thingie in the first place...

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 May 05 - 02:27 PM

There is also the resentment of some of Chiracs previously unwilling supporters, at the last general election they were forced to vote for him in order to make sure that Jean-Marie Le Pen wouldn't get in, although they didn't really want Chirac either, and this time they were free to vote against him.
As for the UK referendum don't hold your breath as it's now unlikely that it will happen, Tony Blair must by jumping for joy at the outcome of the French vote, as it means that Chirac gets the embarassing outcome rather than him.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 05 - 05:41 PM

I remember as a kid visiting London with my family in the 70's and the news magazines were enthusiastically predicting the benefits of a "USE" (United States Of Europe).

So I think this is a bit of a roll-back of the inevitable, and it seems very ironic to have occurred in France, first.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 05 - 06:35 PM

seems to me, the whole idea that we can "compete" on a free market basis with China and India is just one big smoke screen.

Most of the major players in US UK are already investing heavily in these "developing" economies.

I think its finally starting to sink in to ordinary folk everywhere, that we are used as pawns in the Capitalist game , until we outlive our value. Then they move on to more lucrative areas leaving a social mess behind.

They say that Globalisation helps poor countries become more prosperous, didn't they say the same thing to the inhabitants of their imperialist colonies while they stole everything of value.

It seems that cheap labour from Eastern Europe will be our answer to the "rise" of China and India, as for the Scots, Irish, Welsh and English, they can either join the sweatshop or starve....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 05 - 07:06 PM

Ake:

If I may analogize from your comment, your vision of the current era of globalization is that in a kind of long term irony, we are being returned to a 'slash and burn' economy, where instead of hunter-gatherer farmers moving from one bountiful area to another, utilizing it to the full, then moving on, we now have large capital firms which can throw up factories in short order, ingratiate themselves with local governments, hire cheap labor, utilize inexpensive shipping and low trade barriers, and in the event of local opposition of any kind, either move on or threaten to move on?

Is this an accurate view of your perception of Globalization? And is this entirely 'bad'?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 05 - 07:59 PM

Robo.... I find it sad that we feel we need to compete in an industrialised world, which in the main produces crap,in order to survive.

As the search goes on to find ways of keeping the Capitalist machine running, things that used to be abhorrent to us, like the use of torture against defencless prisoners, illegal wars of aggression,
Attacks on human rights ect have become acceptable and will soon become the norm.

My vision of the future makes my blood run cold, and it can all be laid at the door of Global Capitalism.

You ask me if it is entirely bad and I have to say that I can see no redeeming feature in Capitalism.
It is an ideology of greed and crass materialism and any "benefits" that fall to the poor have been screwed from someone even poorer.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 05 - 08:44 PM

ake: you didn't respond to my question as to whether or not I'm even able to understand you. If you want to go on about how terrible Capitalism is, be my guest, but if you want to be understood, now's your chance.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:46 PM

70% voted and of these about 38% decided the matter. Hmmm don't think that's a majority.

What about the other 30%? Will France like Ireland suffer this decision for a few months and then have another referendum?

Since the 'oui' campaign was not organised localy and many are not happy with the result,I predict that another vote will be taken must to settle the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 05 - 09:55 PM

sorefingers:

I know it's not just you, but a lot of folks are trying to fight democracy. I've paid enough attention to tell that it was a decisive vote, for the reasons I enumerated above. I believe it is not always legal to have vote after vote until the government decides it's got what it wanted. Meanwhile, the 'non' majeure has given the Netherlands opposition a major leg up.

What's your position, and what do you think the ramifications are of a rejection of the European constitution, as presently constituted?

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 03:46 AM

A better set of voting figures than those which just recently returned Tony Blair and his New Age Tories to power. I for one would love to see a 70% turnout at a UK general election.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 04:25 AM

If Tony Blair had been constrained by a European Defence Policy. President Bush would have been even more isolated in his recent military campaigns against the Taliban and Saddam Hussein.

be careful what you wish for Robomatic

best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:59 AM

I believe it is not always legal to have vote after vote until the government decides it's got what it wanted. (robomatic)

That's what they did in Switserland and Liechtenstein every four years or so for decades until they got the right for women to vote. Since then there has never been any vote in both countries about that issue.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 09:21 AM

I believe it is not always legal to have vote after vote until the government decides it's got what it wanted.

The goverment of a country can make anything it like legal or illegal. That's what being a sovereign state means. It is also a cause of opposition to the EU. It is taking decisions that would normally be taken by European countries, and not always deciding the same way they would. If that's not surplanting national sovereignty, what is?


Of course, if a country far enough outside international norms, and doesn't have a currently useful goverment, or nuclear weapons, then the UN/US/anyone else who feels like sticking their nose in might invade, but that's another story...

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 10:48 AM

weelittledrummer: good point. As I mentioned above, there are immediate interests, and long term interests, and as far as I can tell it is in the overall long term interest of the US and the world to have more unity in the world and less chance of major warfare.

Wolfgang: Also good point, I should have said monthly, or 'unspecified'. Every four years is a pretty lengthy and reasonable intermission of time, after all, we get a chance to reconsider our President every four years!

bunna-: typically 'anything' can't be legal under a constitution, which sets a barebones structure on which governments are defined.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:56 PM

And Holland as well. 62% said no, on a 63% turn out.

Robomatic- true, I forgot about constitutions, on a thread about the EU constitution! It's a problem in the UK as the constitution is unwritten. They can always be changed anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:50 AM

Geeze, this is the first time I wish I could speak French correctly. If I could, I would say, "Vive, La France."
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:41 AM

Learn to say grenouille too, and you might win a frog!
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:18 AM

Dont let the euphoria get out of hand Doug!

I am also delighted to see the EU constitution rejected, though I'm sure for very different reasons...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:02 AM

Doug--

Your euphoria is misplaced. It was never very likely that "Europe", as a bloc, would be a counterweight to the US. However, from a standpoint of combatting terrorism, for instance-- (which I would think you would advocate--) it would be much more effective to be able to co-ordinate with one entity, rather than 25.

Subject: RE: BS: La France: Oui ou Non?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:10 AM

Yeah, I've been dropping in on forums which are opposite polarity to this one and they've been saying "Vive La France!" as well, but I think it's mainly schadenfreude.