BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:42 PM

Just realised, I may have appeared to contradict one of my earlier statements.

When I said I had no training in ministering to 'The Soul' I did not include training I took in hands on healing in that. Which I guess, might possibly apply.
Though in my initial post I was thinking in more in terms of Religious Spiritual Ministering, than alternative therapies such as hands on healing.
Despite training some years ago in Spiritual/Energy Healing, I've never formally worked, gained any depth of practical experience, or provided a service in that capacity.

This post is a complete aside and irrelevent to the core of this thread, but I wanted to offer a correction to any seeming contradiction in my prior statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM

Warning to ALL nurses. Do NOT enter this site, or indeed read the post at all, if you want to keep your job.   :0)


Nurses Prayers


'I Dedicate Myself To Thee'

I dedicate myself to thee,
0 Lord, my God, this work I undertake
Alone in thy great name, and for thy sake.
In ministering to suffering I would learn
The sympathy that in thy heart did burn.

Take, then, mine eyes, and teach them to perceive
The ablest way each sick one to relieve.
Guide thou my hands, that e'en their touch may prove
The gentleness and aptness born of love.
Bless thou my feet, and while they softly tread
May faces smile on many a sufferer's bed.
Touch thou my lips, guide thou my tongue,
Give me a work in sermon for each one.
Clothe me with patience, strength all tasks to bear,
Crown me with hope and love, which know no fear,
And faith, that coming face to face with death
Shall e'en inspire with joy the dying breath.
All through the arduous day my actions guide,
All through the lonely night watch by my side,
So I shall wake refreshed, with strength to pray,
Work in me, through me, with me, Lord, this day.

:: Author Unknown

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Lovely, Lizzie, for religiously minded nurses to use... when off duty!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

Spleen Cringe wrote: "Personally, as a mental health practitioner, I would like to see a day when my services were no longer required".

Pfft! The way cutbacks and restructuring are going, that day might come sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

That's the silliest statement I've read on this whole thread. I took the Nightingale Oath when I began my training. It has a phrase that mentions God. There has never been a rule about nurses NOT being allowed to pray -- off duty as Spleen Cringe says. Or even on duty between them and God.

As for the President of the USA. Is he likely to come into my home and change my dressings? WOW! Now there's an image.

Ian Mather another refreshing voice of reason.   

Does anyone else feel as though they're being beaten on the head by a Christian stick? Or is it just me.

Ha! Ha! Lost my job already. Got old! Can't be banned from this discussion! I'll come here if I like. So there!
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

You might be missing my point, guys (and gals). I'm not defending the care worker's right to have made that prayer. Neither am I attacking it. I have no opinion about that incident, because I don't think I know enough about it to have an opinion. I'd have to have been there and know the people involved quite well to have an informed opinion about it.

No, I am just holding a general philosophical discussion about the nature of unquestioning belief in any society, how it works, how blind it is, and how unquestioning most people's faith is in the assumptions they normally go on. You, for instance, wyrdolafr....you have faith so strong and adamant that it's harder than carbon steel. You are rock set in your assumptions...they're just not "religious" assumptions, that's all. They are other assumptions formed on a different set of mental rules, and buttressed by the sort of absolute certainty that makes religious fanatics so hard to deal with.

You find that among the religious. You find it among the non-religious too. They all apparently KNOW that they are right, dead right...and that those who see it another way are wrong, dead wrong. Therein lies their problem. Their problem is their fecking judgemental attitude over other people!

I think you're probably both wrong. I think you're probably ALL wrong in a number of ways, in different ways that you'll never know or admit to. I think that NONE of us here actually knows the whole story or has even begun to. Most people haven't even scratched the surface of life yet, but they think they're in the know about all kinds of subtle things that they have no actual experience or understanding of whatsoever. Most people are about 98% ignorant opinions that they got from someone else and 2% actually in the know about anything from real experience. To admit that to themselves would be very scary. So they form an attitude of absolute certainty about all kinds of stuff they don't really know much about, they become opinionated fanatics, and they spend the rest of their life arguing and fighting with other people who follow a different form of opinionated fanaticism.

It's a big waste of time if you ask me...just like most of the wrangling on this thread.

How can you possibly know whether prayer sometimes works or not? How can you possibly be so arrogant as to imagine that you have any basis for claiming such knowledge? You don't know. You have no way of knowing. You just have another loudmouthed opinion based on a set of facile assumptions that you got somewhere. You're no better in that respect than a religious fanatic is with his loudmouthed opinion based on his set of facile assumptions that he got somewhere. You both deserve each other is what I think.

Let all those among you who are 100% sure that they are RIGHT go off to some island, and you can all fight and kill each other there, and maybe leave the rest of us in peace for a change. It would be nice to be among people who aren't so sure they already know everything. Relaxing. Refreshing. Open to discussion. You could pray. You could not pray. And no one would mind one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

"You might be missing my point, guys (and gals). I'm not defending the care worker's right to have made that prayer."

Well, Little Hawk, unfortunately it is that very "Nurse offering to pray with patients" case cited in the thread title, which forms the fulcrum from which this entre discussion is being generated.
I don't think anyone is assuming perfection here. Just offering the dangers implicit in her case, and why what she did might not be the best of things - especially if officially endorsed, despite her best intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM

"And no one would mind one way or the other."

Ah, but.....not *necessarily* LOL

After all, you don't know us all, Little Hawk...(sorry, I'm being wickedly mischievious here) :0) That was a good post of yours. I liked that.

It's a funny ol' life these days, where kindness gets you an' all.

Anyway, we'll be OK, so long as no-one offers to pray for anyone, anywhere, ever again. That should solve the problem, I reckons..

Of course, what she should have said is, "Would you like me to tell you what folk music is?" then..there'd have been noooooo problems at all....

Unless of coure, the ol' lady concerned didn't like folk music, in which case....

Uh Oh....................... ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM

AND, Joy has awarded me the 'Silliest Post of the Thread' Award, so the rest of you will have to go suck on a banana or something, I'm afriad, 'cos....I won! :0)

I wonder what St. Francis of Assisi would make of all this.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM

Little Hawk. The first half of this thread was speaking from someone who does have 'faith' - at least in the spiritual sense. Certainly not some kind of pig-headedness. Unlike many on the thread, I was able to see it from both sides and come to an opinion.

Whereas the last half of this thread wasn't any kind of 'faith' at all - it was based on personal experience and the experiences of a fair amount of people I know. That's not "faith" or "assumptions".

I think you're the one making assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

I was pleased to see that the situation has now been resolved and found the report in Christian Today interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM

Lizzie Cornish, if you read that poem/prayer that you posted more carefully I would think that you'll see that it does not at all support your contention that the nurse should be allowed to offer prayer to unsoliciting patients.

This prayer quite clearly is verbalizing what I said way back that I respect anyone trying for clarity, sureness of hand and word and sensitivity of approach before going to work.

'I Dedicate Myself To Thee'

I dedicate myself to thee,
0 Lord, my God, this work I undertake
Alone in thy great name, and for thy sake.
In ministering to suffering I would learn
The sympathy that in thy heart did burn.

Take, then, mine eyes, and teach them to perceive
The ablest way each sick one to relieve.
Guide thou my hands, that e'en their touch may prove
The gentleness and aptness born of love.
Bless thou my feet, and while they softly tread
May faces smile on many a sufferer's bed.
Touch thou my lips, guide thou my tongue,
Give me a work in sermon for each one.
Clothe me with patience, strength all tasks to bear,
Crown me with hope and love, which know no fear,
And faith, that coming face to face with death
Shall e'en inspire with joy the dying breath.
All through the arduous day my actions guide,
All through the lonely night watch by my side,
So I shall wake refreshed, with strength to pray,
Work in me, through me, with me, Lord, this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM

Now that the nurse has been reinstated it might be a good move to put her through Dan's CPE units.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:45 PM

As Andrea Williams said, this decision is a victory for common sense.

Which, evidently, is not the goal of an amazing number of Mudcatters.

Jan, who does not believe in any God whatsoever--sometimes calls herself an atheist-- says she totally supports the decision. And when she was in the hospital for a very serious neck operation, a chaplain came around to her and asked if she wanted to pray with him. She declined. Then he asked if he could pray for her in the hospital chapel. She said that was fine.

She's with Kendall:   any positive energy is good.

In this case, the nurse offered. The woman declined. That should have been the end of it.

There was evidently no coercion whatsoever or attempted evangelizing of the older woman in the nurse's case.

All those who saw a threat in the nurse's behavior must have lurid tales to tell about being whipped by sadistic nuns earlier in life. Otherwise it's a mystery why so many Mudcatters are so violently opposed to religion--and Christianity in particular.

It's fortunate the legal system did not have to waste its time on this.

Religious bigotry and unwanted proselytizing do obviously exist. ( Look at Rev. Falwell and others of his ilk.   And Bishop Richard Williamson is a real gem.) But this ain't it.

I'm surprised so many Mudcatters, highly intelligent and articulate as they are, did not recognize this.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM

it's a mystery why so many Mudcatters are so violently opposed to religion--and Christianity in particular.

I can't speak for anyone else but I suspect the context in which one has experienced life's lesson's might have wrought some influence. Those of us who grew up in North America, the British Isles or Oz (thus covering a significant proportion of 'catters) have done so with a lot of argument and, occasionally, a little rational discussion of religion and/or atheism going on in the background and most of it was probably couched in terms relevant to judaeo-christian notions of culture, ethics, morals etc.

It would be rather difficult to not have a few entrenched opinions by the time one became fully adult and many of these would be firmly attached to emotionally charged experiences. It's rather rare that a purely rational argument can effect a change to an emotionally charged belief, irrespective of whether religion is involved.

But most of us try to rub along with the diversity around us; it tends to enrich our experience.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:09 AM

Strikes me as a pragmatic decision by the PCT. Once she had got the machinery of the Christian rights lobby behind her, they no doubt decided not to waste public money on a lengthy and expensive court battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:12 AM

Or maybe they discovered that she had not actually breeched any code of conduct!!! She had done her job efficiently and the offer of prayer was altruistic and non intrusive!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:10 AM

The PCT ought to worry about whether or not potentially offended patients will file complaints.

What that woman is doing is not professional and is an invasion of spiritual and/or personal privacy.

I was raised a moderate baptist. I found my way into fundamental ultra conservative baptist church in young adulthood, which resulted in me (fortunately) extricating myself from the whole judeo-christian doctrine by my mid 30s.

I politely tolerate offers of prayers from my baptist mother and aunt. There is no point in hurting these octogenarian ladies who care for me as a whole person. Besides they will only pray all the harder for me if I require that they don't.

I can say that because of my self-imposed lack of religious belief that such an offer from a professional would make me uncomfortable. If I was an atheist or a person of non judeo-christian background and of a less tolerant disposition it would make me angry.

To be clear... I am not saying that I do not believe in god. I believe there must be some kind of conscious intelligence behind all that is.
I just don't believe in religion. I feel religion is divisive and dangerous. People (children, elderly, vulnerable innocents) suffer and die because of it. Wars and globally destructive ways of life are justified because of it. These are my feelings, I do not expect or insist that anyone agree.

As to that nurse... it would be enough for her to simply say that her patients are in her thoughts. However, if professionals and patients wish to embark on this type of spiritual relationship, there could be a solution.

Why not some indication in patient's records as to whether they are happy to receive spiritual attention? This could cover both sides of the issue. The desire to give it and the willingness to receive it. It should remove the surprise and pressure of unsolicited offer and protect the professional who wants to give that extra care.

I know a very tricky thing to word on patient history. But possibly could be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM

"Strikes me as a pragmatic decision by the PCT. Once she had got the machinery of the Christian rights lobby behind her, they no doubt decided not to waste public money on a lengthy and expensive court battle."

Aye, people forget how powerful some Christian organisations can be.
Is it any wonder so many of us are disillusioned and suspicious?

A shame this case went the way it did. Obviously my local vicar of whom I've heard very good things as a sage councellor, need not have bothered spending all that time studying for his theology degree because we have plumbers and fishmongers who can provide the spiritual and pastoral care which he currently provides, just as well!

And the fact that this woman was an evangelical Christian is hardly a big old shocker either. I loathe the way some groups like this proselytise amongst the vulnerable.
And frankly, I don't believe that she was merely being kind or helpful, I believe her motive was to find little old lady converts..
Cynical much? You bet!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:36 AM

Or maybe they discovered that she had not actually breeched any code of conduct!!! She had done her job efficiently and the offer of prayer was altruistic and non intrusive!!!

An offer of prayer can never be altruistic and non intrusive; on the contrary, it is an invasive imposition based entirely on the subjective presuppositions of the believer that what they believe is somehow relevant to anyone but themselves. As for breeching the code of conduct - offering to pray for someone is not delivering care based on best available evidence, nor is it demonstrating a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity. It is, in fact, an abuse of a privileged position for personal ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:40 AM

Just a point regarding political correctness, as the term seems to spring up a lot in this discussion.

If the PCT had not felt they could discipline the nurse, THAT would be political correctness.

You can hear the arguments now, "Freedom of expression of religious beliefs."

Luckily, the PCT ignored side issues and made it clear that an employee, when invited into a home as an employee, works to her employer's and her own professional registration's policies and practices. That is why this situation arose. Nothing to do with religion per se. If she was handing out cards for, say, a relative's insurance company, the situation would be the same.

If a patient asks a nurse to pray for them, that is a different matter. Nobody expects her to say she isn't allowed. A combination of training and common sense, that's all it takes. A bit different to offering or leaving prayer cards.

I note she is back at work. A good outcome then. But before anybody says she won, you will find she accepted her terms of employment and will have stopped mixing her professional duties with her faith conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:46 AM

If a patient asks a nurse to pray for them, that is a different matter.

If people are not allowed to discuss their religion at work how would a patient know that a nurse has any beliefs in order to ask them to pray without causing offence? For equality and diversity this can't be a one way thing; both the patient and the nurse have rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:15 AM

Many elderly patients do indeed ask people to pray for them, and the most common reason being having a disability that does not allow them to attend their church.

eanjay states that nurses and patients have rights. Too true. However, the patient is not bound by a code of conduct, hence the situation can and does occur.

It is quite simple. When you are giving clinical care, you do that. You do it kindly, courteously and in a way that helps put the patient at ease. BUT you concentrate on carrying out your professional duty.

To be brutally honest, I am at a loss as to how some people on this thread, who I am sure are well educated rational people, cannot see the wrong in leaving prayer cards when you have been invited into somebody's house in order to dress a wound or whatever. You are betraying that trust, even if we disregard the professional code of conduct and training, the public expect that people invited into their house on business will stick to that business and not use the invite as a springboard to other things, whether that turned out to be welcomed or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:28 AM

Yay to Ian's last post.

Let's look at it like this. If a social worker who worked with anorexic patients also happened to be an Avon representative, would it be appropriate for this professional to leave cosmetics catalogues with people on his/her caseload?

This is an extreme analogy... but card carrying believers get some type of personal if not monetary reward for reaching and making converts.

So to my mind not that different.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM

I've just remembered something that happened to me about 10 years ago. I had had surgery, but had quite a bad post-operative infection. When I was finally well enough to recuperate at home I received a visit from our village's vicar. He wanted to know if I needed anything. Not knowing what my religious convictions were, he didn't ask and we didn't talk about it. We chatted about Leicester City FC (he was their chaplain), he made sure I didn't need milk or bread or my loo cleaning or my daughter picking up from school - and then he left.

He clearly felt a duty of pastoral care and general neighbourliness. He may have even gone home any prayed for me on his own. But he did NOT offer to pray for me, or with me. I can only assume that this is because he understood his job a lot better than the nurse in question, and understood where the boundaries are, especially in a person's own home. If I had asked, no doubt he would have prayed with me, but it was up to ME to ask. I find it interesting that a person whose stock-in-trade is spirituality can be wise enough to know where those boundaries are and respect them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:24 AM

"He may have even gone home any prayed for me on his own. But he did NOT offer to pray for me, or with me. I can only assume that this is because he understood his job a lot better than the nurse in question, and understood where the boundaries are"

So-o-o-o-o.........praying for someone without their knowledge (and therefore without their permission) is OK, but asking their permission to pray for them is not OK?

Sounds arse-about-face to me, Ruth. Surely asking openly and with honesty has to be preferable to sneaking around and praying in secret, which smacks of dishonesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM

Regards my own local vicar, a friend of mine went to speak with him about some mental and emotional troubles she was going through. My friend is ironically agnostic, even atheist leaning. But she was in a state of desperation and although I don't know exactly why she sought out the vicar. She told me it was some of the most grounded and useful guidance and advice she had ever recieved. He responded to her personal troubles with compassion and intelligence, but he never mixed his religion into it. His own religious training and his work ethic, presumably doesn't include proselytisation, even with those who actively seek him out for his professional pastoral duties.

I think this example, and the one Ruth Archer above cites, demostrate why people actually get trained to do this kind of work. And indeed why other 'well meaning' individuals are not equipped to dabble in spiritual ministering. There are people out there who take their work seriously and understand that you just can't go around inflicting your religion on strangers.

PS, Little Hawk, I think that some of your last comments were innapropriate and rude, even verging on personal attack. And you may think me a loudmouth, but at least I'm not inclined to reduce an otherwise rational and well mannered debate, into unwarranted and indeed somewhat offensive personal criticisms.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM

I have read the thread - a little hurriedly in places.

I have visited the links - the TV one does not work. It is a report about something else, now.

I am not religious.

The code of conduct does not prohibit what is reported as having happened. There is no evidence of denial of diversity and equality. The power of an employer to create a diversity and equaity code does not create an unlimited right to require the ridiculous. The power is rightly limited to what is reasonable and lawful (it is an aspect of the employers power of command). The code itself is not in evidence here but it is hard to see how it could "lawfully and reasonably" have prohibited what was done.

The apparent outcome is exactly right.

I am quite alarmed by Maher's views on how far his power of command (and maybe droit de seigneur too) extends.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM

Thank you Richard, for that piece of sanity.
Thank God there are a few of us left.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:44 AM

Backwoodsman, on the face of it, I'd agree that surely it's more polite to ask someone's permission than to pray "behind their back"

But having thought about it, actually I think that prayer is ultimately between the person praying and the deity they pray to. By asking someone else whether they would like to be "prayed for", you are implicitly telling them something of your own beliefs, and asking for approval. And a vulnerable patient might well feel a refusal would make things awkward. The same might happen if someone were to talk about their political views. That doesn't constitute a sackable offence, but I'd expect a healthcare professional to be a bit more sensitive in that respect.

Anyway, if I find myself in the same situation I shall answer "Yes, you can pray for me if it's helpful to you"

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:52 AM

"So-o-o-o-o.........praying for someone without their knowledge (and therefore without their permission) is OK, but asking their permission to pray for them is not OK?"

Yes, actually, Backwoodsman. Because if he is genuinely and altruistically interested in my welfare, it does no one any harm for him to go home and ask his god to look out for me. As I don't believe in his god, I don't really mind that.

If he had asked me if I wanted him to pray for me, however, he would have been asking for my complicity - something I would have been uncomfortable about giving and equally, out of politeness, about refusing. It would have been an abuse of my vulnerable position. Maybe a small one, but I would not have felt good about it. Asking me to pray with him would have been even more so.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,NHS Patient
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

An old man was in hospital.
Lying in bed, he leaned over to the pretty young nurse attending to him
and whispered in her ear
"Give us a kiss, luv!"

"No!", replied the nurse

"Oh go on!", said the man

"No!", replied the nurse again

"Please!", begged the old man, "Just a quick peck on the cheek?"

"For the last time, no!", said the nurse, "I shouldn't even be w@nking you off!"

...well, some might agree that would be more positively recuperative than an unsolicited prayer..
though whether it would be a more serious breach of professional conduct ???

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM

snorting my tea through my nose

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

I think NHS patient is asking for a daffodil where he does not want a thermometer...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM

OK Ruth, I understand what you're saying (well, I understand the words - I find your perception very perverse, if not disturbing, but, hey, whatever puts the nutmeg on yer rice pudding!).

Me? I'd take truth and honesty - openness right up-front - every time. And I have the grace and self-confidence to appreciate, and be grateful for, the desire of another human being to elicit on my behalf the good influence of whichever God they believe in. I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who would feel threatened by such a thing.

Not commenting about you specifically, Ruth, but about the many who seem to perceive others' kindness and faith as somehow threatening.

Surreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM

So now this elderly lady (along with many of us) is without grace and self-confidence and gratitude?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:23 PM

For me it's not about kindness and faith being threatening. It's having been almost pinned down on a couple of occasions by Christians who feel a need to convert others to their own way of thinking. One of these was a relative, a situation that became extremely embarrassing as she was not going to take no for an answer. After that sort of experience one becomes extremely chary about letting even a foot get in the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Pray all you like, mate, just don't ask for my complicity. I grew up in a staunchly Catholic family, was taught by nuns, the whole nine yards. You think MY perception is perverse? Disturbing? I can talk to you all bloody day about perverse and disturbing stuff done
in the name of your god. I had enough of this stuff shoved down my throat in the first 16 years of my life to last me several lifetimes, thanks all the same. I choose not to have sanctimonious creeping-Jesus god-bothering in my life, and I object most strenuously to anyone who thinks their faith somehow overrides my right to a very specific and deliberate personal choice. End of.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM

Amen oh Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:40 PM

I think one of the problems is that certain brands of Christianity place a massive emphasis on "witnessing", pulling in converts, "evangelising" etc. It is seen as being absolutely at the core of the religion and seen to supercede laws, codes of conduct, agreed behavioural norms and so on - in a nutshell, "I follow God's law not man's law". As a non-believer, this position comes across as unbelievably arrogant, but to the evangelical Christian its a no-brainer. Bums on seats for God is where it's at, and no poxy rules and regulations are gonna stop me! Therefore stuff that other workers - who might have a variety of political and religious and cultural views they'd love to share - consider inappropriate when providing healthcare is seen as fair game to the born again Christian. This is complicated by the fact that evangelical Christians consider everything they do as inherently benign because they can't imagine anything more wonderful and life enhancing than bringing someone to Jesus, and consider those who are mystified by this worldview as blind to the truth.

On that basis alone, this issue will run and run.

Me, I had a lucky escape. I was running with a bad crowd (the Young People's Fellowship at the local Methodist church) and I was easily led. Before I knew it I was mainlining top quality evangelical preachers all the way from the States, and there I was, down at the front, having hands laid on, being saved. Luckily, a short few years later I discovered girls! drink! punk rock! dope! anarchist politics! fun! self determination! and so on and ... I died again. I'm still in recovery...

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:52 PM

"For me it's not about kindness and faith being threatening. It's having been almost pinned down on a couple of occasions by Christians who feel a need to convert others to their own way of thinking. One of these was a relative, a situation that became extremely embarrassing as she was not going to take no for an answer. After that sort of experience one becomes extremely chary about letting even a foot get in the door."

I understand that, jacqui. I've never had that experience - in the past I've turned offers down and that was that, even when the Jehovah's Witnesses came a-callin' they've always taken "no" for an answer. No problem.

My experiences (certainly in recent years) have all been positive and beneficial. I understand and sympathise with those who haven't been so lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM

One member of my family keeps a cast iron inverted pentagram on his front door, to ward off the evangelists...

I myself keep intending to buy one of these delightful Gnostic T-Shirts

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

I died again.

Amen, brother!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:11 PM

Oooh, or maybe another way to spread the brilliant news...
A nice pack of Gnostic greetings cards, or even a thought provoking Gnostic tile coaster!
Proselytising was never so much fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

Sleepy Rosie... Bad news for you!!! Just because you don't believe there is a God... doesn't mean there isn't one! What gives you the right to put down Christians just because you don't believe what they do I ask?????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:25 PM

Sleepie Rosie, I just had a glance at that T-Shirt. I'm sure you wouldn't dream of wearing such a horrible thing. I know some people might think it smart or funny, but that for me is where it crosses the line. it's one thing not to want someone's religion (or indeed, beliefs generally) invading your space, but it's quite another to go out of one's way to offend their sense of decency, as a T-shirt like that does.

I quite understand people not wanting to hear about my religion and my beliefs, but at work, for example, I find myself all the time having to hear about theirs as certain people lose no opportunity to mock the religion to which I proscribe and speak almost with venom of it (i am not exaggerating here). I never bring my religion up at work unless religion and beliefs are already a topic of conversation started by someone else, and even then I rarely do. Likewise I'd expect my non-believing colleagues to at least practice their disdain behind closed doors.


Not wanting another person's religion in your face (which I accept as quite reasonable) has a corollary - not going out of your way to ridicule their beliefs. In fact, doing so only puts them in the unfair position of feeling obliged to say something about it while binding them with the restraint at the same time that if they do, they are somehow 'evangalising'

I'm sure the T-shirt was just a joke, but I hope you can see it is a tad offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM

Sleepy Rosie... can I please draw your attention to this post of yours... or at least your last statement ...a PS to Little Hawk....

<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie - PM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM

Regards my own local vicar, a friend of mine went to speak with him about some mental and emotional troubles she was going through. My friend is ironically agnostic, even atheist leaning. But she was in a state of desperation and although I don't know exactly why she sought out the vicar. She told me it was some of the most grounded and useful guidance and advice she had ever recieved. He responded to her personal troubles with compassion and intelligence, but he never mixed his religion into it. His own religious training and his work ethic, presumably doesn't include proselytisation, even with those who actively seek him out for his professional pastoral duties.

I think this example, and the one Ruth Archer above cites, demostrate why people actually get trained to do this kind of work. And indeed why other 'well meaning' individuals are not equipped to dabble in spiritual ministering. There are people out there who take their work seriously and understand that you just can't go around inflicting your religion on strangers.

PS, Little Hawk, I think that some of your last comments were innapropriate and rude, even verging on personal attack. And you may think me a loudmouth, but at least I'm not inclined to reduce an otherwise rational and well mannered debate, into unwarranted and indeed somewhat offensive personal criticisms.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


What are you not inclined to do SleepyRosie?

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:03 PM

I'm sure the T-shirt was just a joke, but I hope you can see it is a tad offensive?

Hardly offensive, given that the t-short is a perfectly valid expression of a central tenet of Gnosticism. To quote from the site:

"Some of them say that the serpent was Sophia herself; for this reason it was opposed to the maker of Adam and gave knowledge to men, and therefore is called the wisest of all [Gen. 3:1]. And the position of our intestines through which food is taken in, and their shape, shows that the hidden Mother in the shape of a serpent is a substance within us."

(St. Iranaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies: The Sethian-Ophites, pub ~ A.D. 180, from Willis Barnstone's The Other Bible, p.664, pub. A.D.1984)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM

I would like to day that Backwoodsman and I have shared some PMs, and it's all big, secular love here in Lincolnshire. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:11 PM

I was sort of making a point there. As stated previously, I am Gnostic in my beliefs, and these are images - which despite their graphic nature and rather subversive humour - nevertheless still embody quite genuine Gnostic beliefs - as may be found in slightly less contemporary form in the Gnostic myths and gospels.

I wondered if anyone on this list might be offended by me shoving their noses into my beliefs?

I know that the way I in which I attempted to make this point, was rather melodramatic. And I suspect it will look incredibly childish and pointless to most. But it was purposive, for I hoped it might potentially generate some reconsideration of the possible offense and sense of intrusion, that other forms of *superficially benign* proselytisation could very genuinely cause to those of us, who do not subscribe to mainstream Christianity, or indeed to any form of spiritual faith.

Even so, I have a feeling that not too many people will buy that!
And on that no doubt unsatisfactory note, I'll now leave this thread to those who wish to continue debating.