BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM

Joe, the 'Guest Lizzie Cornish' at 06.59am is not me. So if you could remove it, I'd be very grateful. And yes, I'll send a PM too, Joe.




But 2,000 posts in that name? 2,000 posts written by the same non-Lox person, that have been allowed to remain????? I'm just really intrigued as to why all those other posts have remained, Don, that's all. I mean, surely, if it was a well known fact on Mudcat that Lox has an impersonater around then every single 'Guest Lox' message would and should be vetted almost immediately, wouldn't they?

Who knows?


Anyway, that aside, I was still pretty perturbed at that article I found yesterday about the 'verbal agreements' at every stage of sex...how romantic is that? I don't get that, I really don't.


Article on Acquaintance Rape

..and taken from there:

"..Acquaintance rape remains a controversial topic because of lack of agreement upon the definition of consent. In an attempt to clarify this definition, in 1994, Antioch College in Ohio adopted what has become an infamous policy delineating consensual sexual behavior. The primary reason this policy has stirred such an uproar is that the definition of consent is based on continuous verbal communication during intimacy. The person initiating the contact must take responsibility for obtaining the other participant's verbal consent as the level of sexual intimacy increases. This must occur with each new level. The rules also state that "If you have had a particular level of sexual intimacy before with someone, you must still ask each and every time." (The Antioch College Sexual Offense Policy, in Francis, 1996)..."

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:15 AM

It's all to do with computer and web provider 'signature's', Lizzie. The mods here can tell where a particular message came from. They know that the 'Guest, Lizzie Cornish' you point out is not you because it is not from one of your regular computers. In the same way they know the 2000 posts by 'Guest, Lox' are from the real Lox and they will find out sooner or later if someone has impersanted someone else. Got it?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:17 AM

"I was still pretty perturbed at that article I found yesterday about the 'verbal agreements' at every stage of sex...how romantic is that? I don't get that, I really don't.
"

Err, it's "I want you to make love to me!", "let's make love?", "I want to make love to you darling.."

Romantic enough?

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:18 AM

"But 2,000 posts in that name? 2,000 posts written by the same non-Lox person, that have been allowed to remain????? I'm just really intrigued as to why all those other posts have remained, Don, that's all. I mean, surely, if it was a well known fact on Mudcat that Lox has an impersonater around then every single 'Guest Lox' message would and should be vetted almost immediately, wouldn't they? "

Lizzie please just listen ......

Many members are not always able to log in from wherever.
If they still wish to be identified with their post - or NOT have it deleted - they will attach their mudcat name to the post.

This has been very common practice on mudcat for as long as I've been a member at least

If however, someone perceives that another person is taking advantage of that situation to also post as Guest so and so - they then can approach Joe and request it be removed

The fact that 'Guest Lox''s posts remain in abundance would suggest they were were all legitimately written by him wouldn't it?

Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:20 AM

'The fact that 'Guest Lox''s posts remain in abundance would suggest they were were all legitimately written by him wouldn't it?'

Excluding this recent one which I presume he has not seen yet.

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM

Or perhaps even "I don't want you do anything you don't want to, darling. Is this OK? How does that feel? Let me know if I'm going too fast for you...

*Communication* LC is a normal part of sex. If it's done in complete silence, I think you're probably not doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM

Nope CS, I totally disagree. If it's done in complete silence it's because there is absolutely no need for words in the first place, such is your love and trust for one another.   Hands, mouths and bodies can so often speak far more eloquently than mere words.

Of course people DO natter on when they want to, or laugh and splutter, but it's certainly not compulsory.

Gawd, we're living in a very strange world these days...I'm glad I'm an old, old woman and don't have to have all these stresses and strains. I'm glad I've still got my sense of humour and haven't been politicallycorrectised half to death!





Well, if the Mudcat 'Guest' system is tying in real 'Guest' posts, with false ones, surely it needs to be changed as fast as is possible.

I've written to Joe, about the bogus postings in my name and about Lox's ones. And I hope some of you have done the same, if you feel it's an imposter.

Not seen the BEBO me but it'll be there because I verbally attacked a bloke who'd posted some horrible things about Mudcat members, which I found whilst looking for some other info...and the Facebook one, yes, well, many of us have those I'm afraid. Facebook ain't interested though. The bastards.

And now, if you could stop using my name in vain, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.

And Joe, could you also take that post of 07.22am off, please. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:40 AM

'And I hope some of you have done the same, if you feel it's an imposter.'

I have left that action for Lox himself to take Lizzie; it's my belief that not only can he speak for himself but that he should be allowed to do so as well

I had my reservations that his earlier post today was in fact someone attempting a 'wind up' which is why I didn't respond to it but sent a message to him on Facebook instead

As a wind up - it was very sucessful wasn't it - once you got your teeth into it!

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:44 AM

"If it's done in complete silence it's because there is absolutely no need for words in the first place, such is your love and trust for one another."

OK so some really special people who the first time they 'do it' simply lay eyes on each other and their clothes fall to the ground and they have the most blissful night together without so much as a word being uttered! Great for them.

Then there's the rest of us who live in imperfect fumble land who communicate what we like and want with our lovers..

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:48 AM

I've written to Joe, about the bogus postings in my name and about Lox's ones. And I hope some of you have done the same

Way behind the times again I'm afraid, Lizzie. There have been umpteen discussions on the 'Guest' policy and many, many people have already made the point. It is, currently, Mudcat policy to accept Guest postings on existing threads. Guests cannot start BS threads but can start genuine music threads. Bogus postings by members posing as Guests, Guests posting as other Guests and memebrs with multiple identities are not allowed as I am sure you already know. If any of the rules are breached a mudelf will step up and fix it but it may not be immediate.

Hope that helps

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM

"Well, if the Mudcat 'Guest' system is tying in real 'Guest' posts, with false ones, surely it needs to be changed as fast as is possible."

How? Guest posts allow you to post without signing in, and without a cookie being set. So someone (say, you) can log in as Guest Lizzie Cornish, but so can anyone else. Doing a search on the name Guest Lizzie Cornish will pull up all instances of that Guest id being used. That's a completely reasonable aspect of the Guest posting facility. Of course, it doesn't stop anyone, anywhere, using your Guest log-in to impersonate you. The solution is to always log in, so that it's obvious that any guest post isn't really you; or for the Guest post option to be removed by Mudcat altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Royston
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

Can I just ask why registered members post as "Guest" anyway?

Why not just login?

If you have more than one computer under your control, you can be permanently logged in on all of them. If you use one not under your control, logout again afterwards and/or delete all cookies.

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 08:01 AM

Some browsers are set not to allow cookies, Royston. If it is your own or if you have admin rights you can change that setting. If it is, for instance, a works computer and you do not have rights to change browser settings you will never be able to log in.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM

i am completely with crow sister on the talking during sex thing.

especially in a long term relationship. it is healthy to talk about every asspect of your relationship. why should making love be any different? surely talking about things means it could make it better for both of you. there must be loads of old fashioned women out there that just lie back and put up with their husbands.

if it is a new relationship, and someone asked me at every stage if i was happy to carry on, or started then want reassurance, i would see that as being considerate.wanting to please, and do things the way i want them. the same goes for me, asking what and how the other person wants things.

this is where and what makes sexual assult and rape so different. i don't want to keep using the word victim. ok the one who is assulted, does not have their wishes considered.

i too read that last lox post as an imposter. but can you confirm that all guestlizzie cornish posts on this thread have been you lizzie? just to make sure. thanks.

i also agree with DeG. the post where you explained things from your pont of veiw, without judgments and hatred was alot easier to understand. in fact you were complimented on it, by me and others.

have a great day all
jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

Lizzie Wrote "And mp, nowhere has it been stated that a woman deserves to be molested purely for just 'turning up', nowhere. That's taking things entirely the wrong way and adding fuel to the fire, isn't it?"

I never said you said it but reading some of the stuff on here has sure made me revisit what is being said. Fact is, had I not been there then I would not have been molested. By some of the logic on this thread that makes me culpable. I know I am not. I was using it as an example.

Where is that line drawn and by whom?

The original arricle also intimates some views similar. I was not adding fuel I was simply using a personal experience to highlight the point. In this case you have supported me 100% and said it was wrong that guy did that to me. Though I did have a miniskirt on that night, heels, a great make-up! I was not inviting anyone at all. It was about me feeling good about myself is all.

If you want an apology then do have one but I was not singling you out for any comment there.

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM

Well we added the ?? to the title. But who changed the topic to Guests Signing In? May I respectfully suggest if you want a thread on that subject you go make one, whilst you are signed in of course! ;-)

I am guilty of lots of posts as Guest, mauvepink as I am not always signed in. Sorry for the PM's I missed. I have answered them now...

Back to topic I hope

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

Hi folks.
Emma B is not just a pretty face.
Sorry to inform you that there is an imposter on the forum.
I did not write the following post.

From: GUEST,Lox - PM
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM

In which someone apeaks of short skirts at a party.
I don't care what has been said in the post, the views expressed are not mine and neither is the language used.
Clever imitation of my line breaks has occurred, but sadly thats as far as the "cleverness" extends.
Unfortunately the imposter is a facile brainless dick and as such will never be convincing.
To ensure that there is no further confusion:
FROM NOW ON I WILL ONLY POST WHEN LOGGED ON.
If a moderator or anyone else sees a guest post with my name attached they may assume that an imposter is pretending to be me.
I suspect either our resident BNP troll, our resident fuckwit, or thge white knight as they are the only ones with a motive.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 02:33 PM

Yes, Guest lox is a fraud. So is Guest Lizzie Cornish. Now, please go back to the original topic of discussion.
Any further posts in this thread about identity questions will be deleted.

This thread is no longer open to Guest posts. All subsequent Guest posts will be deleted.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

I'm still puzzled by the assumption that somehow the guilt of a perpetrator of a crime - any crime - is somehow reduced or "shared" if the victim is seen as having acted in a way that made that crime more likely to take place.

It's disempowering for one thing, to use a modish expression.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

to compare the crime of rape to someone steaing a car is like comparing it to someones body.
now yes if you leave the keys in the car, you are a prat. BUT if that car gets nicked then runs over a bus stop full of people in no way is the person who left the keys responsible!! just because you have tempted a thief does not mean they have to take it.

this is an unequal comparison!

you see, everyway i have thought to try and explain to people how it feels, i can only go so far. things are just things. if you buy something and you have made a mistake, even if you can't get your money back it comes no where near the betrayal and the hurt you feel when being raped and the terrified panic you feel afterwards.
if you have ever been in a serious accident, it might come close i guess although i never have been.
jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

Mr McGrath is of course correct.

and I was correct in saying that we are basically arguing over a form of words.
Everybody here thinks the crime of rape is inexcusible and it is ridiculous to say that the victim NEVER act irresponsibly..

Mr McGrath is also correct in noting that the irresponsibility of the victim,does not diminish the culpability of the criminal.

On the subject of guest postings, I can say catagorically, that I have only ever used one name to post on this forum.
If I have ever posted as a guest it was in error through not being logged in......any of the administrators can vouch for this.

Neither do I stalk other posters or use abusive language to others who are not in discussion with me.

For some time, I haven't been responding to Lox, mainly because he had not the guts to apologise when he wrongly attributed remarks to me, then abuse me for writing them.

Although I do not respond to Lox, he has pursued me using words like "fuckwit" ect and now has implied that I have been writing posts under his name.....I have much better things to do with my time, than try to wind up someone so obviously "distrubed".

I now await two apologies....and perhaps a few well chosen words from the mods....Thank you...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

Oh.... it all lies in the definition of "responsibility".

Sorry. I misunderstood. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM

I am posting a link to an article that came out in yesterdays Vancouver Voice (that's Vancouver, Washington). It is related to the discussion here. The picture was taken by a dear friend of mine.

Working The Streets

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

Here Ake.

Me Explain so you get it.

1. Each person reponsible for OWN actions.

2. Each person NOT responsible for actions of Anyone else.

3. Rape is action of Rapist

4. Rape is 100% responsibility of Rapist

5. Rape victim did not do anything wrong.

6. Rape victim 0% responsible for Rape.


Fashion preference has nothing to do with it.


Hey, by the way Ake, I think I see Godot coming - maybe if you hang on long enough you'll get an apology from him too.


As for following people around, you simplify every issue down to one thing - the "liberal agenda".


Then wherever a political discussion on ANY TOPIC begins you bang on about it till the paint begins to peel.

You support every reactionary standpoint going yet claim to be "radical".

I ignore you till the usual predictable shit comes out and then when it does I attack it because it is vile self indulgent poison and you never see beyond the end of your own ego and bitterness but are happy to condemn swathes of people different to you to convenient categories because you haven't the wit to engage in ANY meaningful or constructive way.

You start showing actual respect for the people of this forum and the world outside ans i might consider not spitting when I see one of your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 04:06 AM

I'm still puzzled by the assumption that somehow the guilt of a perpetrator of a crime - any crime - is somehow reduced or "shared" if the victim is seen as having acted in a way that made that crime more likely to take place.

Oddly enough, considering what I have said before, I do agree with the sentiment. But (you knew there was one didn't you:-) ) ...

1. In the case of rape, if the victim is shown to be complicit in any way, a clever solicitor will get the penalty reduced or, worse still, get the case dismissed.

2. Because the rapist will always know that he can use that defence, every case of rape will have that test applied. Even where it is blatantly untrue. This will make
   a) The victim less likely to report it and
   b) The victim feel even worse when a clever solictor gets going

3. In the case of car crime and robbery without violence if the victim is accused of complicity then there is little harm done. In the case of rape there can be far more serious consequences.

While the comparison between car theft and rape can serve as an example that is as far as the analogy can go. Stealing a vehicle and stealing someones self respect are miles apart.

Does that explain my feelings on this particular aspect any better?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 04:37 AM

Dave,

In addition to what you say, the idea of a rape victim being "complicit" is in itself a total fallacy.

If I comply, or agree, then I am NOT saying NO.

A rape victim, at some point says NO but is raped anyway.

That is how we define rape.

One person wants sex, the other says NO, the first decides to do it ANYWAY.

So rape by very definition is NON COMPLIANT.

The key word is CONSENT.

If she doesn't give consent then she is NOT COMPLICIT and cannot be said to be complicit in any way.

To clarify this rubbish about how "its just a question of usage of words" or whatever it was:

A rape victim is never to blame, is never responsible, is never at fault and is never complicit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:29 AM

No disagreement about complicity. A victim of a crime is never "complicit" in the crime, even if they might have done something which made it more likely that the crime would take place. That is true whether it is a rape, a mugging, a burglary or a car theft. The fact that courts sometimes seem to think in those terms is monstrously unfair, especially in the case of rape.

There is an enormous difference between making a stupid mistake and committing a vicious crime, and sometimes the language of blame and fault can blur that difference. If a girl gets drunk, and a man takes advantage of this to rape her, it is completely wrong to imply that by getting drunk she was asking for it, and that the guilt of the man is in any way reduced. No one would be likely to suggest this kind of implication in a case of male on male rape.

But imagine a slightly different scenario, in which a friend had spiked the victim's drink as a joke and then drifted off - would we say that the friend had no kind of responsibility for the unintended events that followed when a third party moved in? Not the kind of responsibility that in any way reduces the guilt of the rapist, but the kind to cause bitter regret.
......................

As for the notion that a perpetrator's guilt is somehow reduced if there is seen to be some blame attached to another person, that would seem to imply that participants in a gang rape were less guilty than an individual rapist, which is surely absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM

A person may still say "yes" but be raped if the ostensible consent is obtained by force or fraud - there is a case from Victorian times when a very ill-informed girl was told by her singing teacher that he was opening an airway to improve her singing. It comes to my mind every time someone says "sing from the diaphragm".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 08:37 AM

Agreed, McG, 'The fact that courts sometimes seem to think in those terms is monstrously unfair, especially in the case of rape.' But not everything is fair - even the law at times:-( If it was fair the law would reject all arguments but whether the victim said yes or no. As it stands the defence of the accused rapist often relies on portraying the victim as the type of manipulative siren that has been discussed before. The only reason they do this is to get the case rejected or, at worst, get the sentence reduced due to mitigating circumstances. While we fully understand that the accused is either guilty or not, the judiciary will use that grey area of 'Guilty but because...' to lessen the punishment or to get the case tried on a lesser charge.

So - No, the argument does not actualy reduce guilt but it sure as hell makes the perpetrators life a lot easier:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:01 AM

"Senior barristers deliberately attempt to portray women complainants in rape trials as "sluts", and as promiscuous and of low character, lawyers have admitted in a study."


Ten experienced rape trial barristers revealed their courtroom strategies in the study, Prosecuting and Defending Rape - Perspectives from the Bar.

Its author, Professor Jennifer Temkin, of Sussex University's school of legal studies, said: "The defence counsel seem to have a set of strategies.
The principal strategy is to undermine the woman's personality. For example, they try to make out that the woman has acted foolishly - they try to show if she didn't consent she has brought this all on herself and she is to blame.

Professor Temkin added: "Another technique is to routinely bring up the issue of her clothing."

One male barrister talking about a case recalled: "This girl has gone into a bikers' pub wearing a miniskirt and a see-through shirt. I don't think they, young girls, realise the effect of their appearance on young men. Guys get turned on if they can see through the girl's clothes. Dress is significant

Professor Temkin said there was "a kind of lack of ethical awareness" in the barristers' methods. She said that defence solicitors frequently used women barristers as part of their strategy to defend alleged sex offenders. Eight of the lawyers interviewed were women. "This is seen as giving a message to the jury that as a woman she believes the man

The conviction rate for rape fell from 24 per cent in 1985 to 9 per cent in 1997. This is believed to be partly attributable to the big increase in the number of acquaintance or "date" rapes, where it is very difficult to prove that there was no consent"

From 'Barristers admit blackening rape victims in court'

news article in 200
Plus ça change

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:02 AM

2000 of course !

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM

Emma, that's enough to bring on measures of both anger and sorrow. Would that there was some realistic way to move toward an actual
"justice system", in place of the current "legal-career-point-scoring" system.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:43 AM

A few years ago, an older judge in Wisconsin proclaimed that he would never convict a young man of rape so long as young women kept running around dressed the way they do. The young victim in the case had been wearing blue jeans and a sweater. The one good thing that came of it was that, in this instance, the judge was driven off the bench.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:45 AM

It is scary indeed. More worrying still is that a conviction rate as low as 24% then dropped to 9:-( Any idea what it is now?

I believe in France, or so I am told, that they do not have procecuters and defenders - They have two people both trying to find the truth. I don't know if it makes a difference but it sounds fairer.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Monique
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

David, in France rape is felony so the trials are heard in Assize court

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

In 2006/7, there were more than 13,000 rapes reported to police in England and Wales.
The number of rape convictions was 50 per cent higher in 2007 than in 1997, but still only 6.5 per cent of reported rapes lead to a successful prosecution

Statistics form the Government Equalities Office

The only European country with a lower conviction rate than the UK was Ireland this is despite that, in 2003, the law was changed so that it is no longer a defence for a defendant to show he believed a woman consented to sex.
He must now prove that such a belief was reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:39 PM

The rate of conviction for rape in England and Wales also varies from region to region

Postcode lottery in rape convictions 'getting worse' The Guardian, Wednesday 10 June 2009

The breakdown of some figures by police force area can be found here

It is reported that the majority of convictions for rape resulted from an admission of guilt by the defendant, whereas less than one quarter of all those charged with rape were convicted following a successful trial.

Additionally, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage.
The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and "the view that the victim lacks credibility".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM

Although criminal law is not my thing I am sure (ish) that evidence of the previous sexual "misconduct" of the victim was legislated inadmissible some years ago, and I thought that the same applied to clothing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: paula t
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

The argument that "some" women deserve or ask to be raped makes me so angry!I was attacked at the age of 16 and my crime was to walk alone through a park at teatime on a summer evening.Luckily a passer - by saw the guy jump me and chased him off before I was hurt, but that terror is still there.

Rape has absolutely nothing to do with sex and everything to do with inadequacy and a need for power.I think it is insulting to men to suggest that if a woman dresses provocatively she is causing herself problems. The men I know would never dream of raping a woman - no matter what she was wearing or how she behaved , or how far the situation had progresses before she said "No".The rapist will choose anyone as long as they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I remember a discussion many years ago with some year 11 girls (15 -16 yrs)during a sex education lesson. One girl said that "boys can't stop if they get excited". I waited for the objection from the other girls, but they merely nodded agreement.It turned out that quite a number of them believed that boys were physically incapable of "stopping". I asked them what would happen if a boy was with a girl at home, and his parents walked into the house.Surely he would be able to stop then, no matter how far things were "progressing?".There was a stunned silence, then a loud outbreak of choice swear words. Many girls, it seemed ,had fallen for the myth that a boy being disappointed and frustrated was the same as being physically incapapable of self control.We had a long discussion about not getting ourselves into difficult situations in the first place, but having the absolute right to say no at any time.

Sorry to go on here, but no means no, and that is not dependent on the dress, age or behaviour of an individual. After all, who defines "provocative" dress and "sluttish" behaviour? That could merit a thread of its own.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM

Richard, the report I posted at 9.01 today was published in 2000

Section 41 of the 1999 Act replaced section 2 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1976 and came into effect in Dec 2000
The new legislation offered complainants in sexual offence cases better protection against unnecessary cross-examination on their sexual behaviour.
It provides a more structured approach to decision-taking and sets out more clearly when evidence of previous sexual history can be admitted in rape cases

Evidence of previous sexual behaviour can only be used with the leave of the court
The court must be satisfied that to refuse leave would result in the jury, or the court, reaching an unsafe conclusion on a relevant issue at trial.
The courts will also refuse permission if they believe that the real main aim of evidence claimed to relate to a relevant issue is simply to undermine the complainant's credibility.

Other measures in the 1999 Act, to protect victims of rape and other sexual offences from being cross examined by the defendant in person in court, were implemented on 4 September 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

well reminded emma. i had forgotten that the accussed used to be able to question the accusers themselves. it is no wonder with all the red tape and fear that people don't want to report rape.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

As I said already, I think we're all agreed that in the vast majority of cases the crime of rape is committed by drunk, deranged, or manipulative men...no one in their right mind would seek to excuse that.

There are a few cases which are a little different, like the one I cited, where the woman went to a strangers house, spent the nighjt in bed with him, had sex(which he said was consentual or as near to consentual as they could remember)....the next day the woman reported the man for rape.

Is this rape? and if so, does the woman really bear no responsibility for what occurred?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM

Ake. If it was rape then no, she does not bear any of the blame and she is only responsible in the way that a car is responsible for being stolen by being there! If it was not rape and she did indeed consent then there is no argument. Not only is she responsible but she is also despicable for blaming an innocent man. I don't know which is true. I was not there but, as everyone keeps saying, the victim should never be classed as responsible for ANY crime.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM

Well if not responsible for the crime(Mr McGrath has explained why this cannot be so)...Is she not responsible for her own safety?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:56 AM

"Is this rape? and if so, does the woman really bear no responsibility for what occurred?"

IF it is rape then she bears no responsibility

IF it is not rape and she has cried it, then shame on her and I think she should be charged with malicious prosecution type laws. I do not know the terms. No woman or man should ever cry rape unless it is true. That does not mean that you could not believe in all honesty you have been raped, but than in actual fact you were not.

The case you cite has enough grey areas for the likelihood of not being able to prove beyond a reasonabl doubt (unless other foresnsics are found to prove it was a forced sex situation).

There is NO excuse for a woman making a false and malicious case. That is why the man's name should be protected until after any trial. He should be afforded annomimity on the grounds you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless it is known he really is the guilty party beforehand.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:59 AM

I agree, but in those circumstances does a woman bear no responsibility for her own safety?

The above scenario must be quite common especially if both have been drinking.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:04 AM

Is it not irresponsible to put herself in such a legally "grey" area?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM

No one has argued that the cases of 'acquaitance' rape that make up the majority of rape situations is an easy one to prosecute as it is the word of one person against another - the figures I have quoted for the number of allegations never proceeded with bear this out.

But ake! you wrote -

"had sex(which he said was consentual or as near to consentual as they could remember)....

The problem here ake is that 'he' said the sex was consentual you do NOT say 'she' said it was, although by the context (reporting rape the following day) we assume she said it wasn't so we are back to one person's word against another.

Is the suggestion here that neither could remember with any accuracy? (you use the word 'they') - in which case was the man assuming consent even if the woman was very drunk or even unconscious - was he sober enough to justify his belief that the sex was consentual?

The reality here is that a case of this sort (his word against hers) would almost certainly never get beyond the reporting stage WHATEVER the actual circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

"Well if not responsible for the crime(Mr McGrath has explained why this cannot be so)...Is she not responsible for her own safety? "

We all have to be resposible for our own safety if we have the mental capacity to do so. Some people do not and they have special protections in law. However, no-one should be raped because of being irresponsible. Irresponsiblity is not a crime in the main and if it were a lot of us would be in jail at some time in our life.

Neglecting personal safety should not detract from the crime of rape. Rape is one and same no matter how it is committed. Rape is the crime. The victim should not be made to feel responsible for it in any way. I am sure many rape victims spend a lot of time thinking they should have sone something different before they were raped. That does not mean they are guilty in any way and it is typical of victims to look for reasons to blame themselves often for what happened to them.

What they do not need is others, who have no idea what went on, pointing fingers and being all moralistic.

ALL rape victims have the same thing in common. They were raped. Only the circumstances differ that lead up to it. No, they are not responsible for being raped even if they have let their guard down a bit.

IMHO

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

I agree entirely, Ake, that everyone is responsible for their own safety but I fail to see why acting foolishly should be punished by rape!

Cheers

DeG