BS: The largest class society in the world

Subject: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Donuel-DonHakman
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:27 PM

No it is not the UK with its publicized lords.

It is the USA with the largest gap between the rich and poor in the world. Our lords are virtually invisible in American society.
To ensure this class society, great efforts to deny a college education to the poor and middle class has proceeded steadily for the last 30 years.

Now the fruits of the priviledged are heavy on the tree. In 2008 the largest graduating HS class in US history will produce 4 million students that qualify for college education but will be unable to afford a 4 year school. 2 million will be unable to afford any college. The PELL grants used to provide an average of 68% of a students college funds but today it will cover an average of 33%.

Underpriviledged students unable to afford college education will be ballooning to 60 million over the next 10 years.

The priviledged class will create all the lawyers, judges, politicians and well paid professions for the next 3 generations.

Again, this is not to say it has not always been the case but just as with election fraud, the scope and all inclusiveness of a caste control over the masses in the USA is now titanic.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:38 PM

I'd rather live here in the U.S then with all those British women who don't shave their legs or armpits.

You can get off your soapbox now. Believe it or not, there appears to be a lot of people who wouldn't consider living anywhere else.

There are people who rise from the underpriviledged to achieve success. There are also many others who don't care to.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM

I think it is easier to go to college now as an underpriviledged person in America than when I started in the 60s In Georgia the HOPE grant is available to all students who have a B average in HIgh School. There are more low interest loans, more grants more scholarships, etc than ever before. I went to professional school in the late 70s and had a wife and 3 children. We worked, got food stamps, ate lots of ramen and borrowed the money at a rate, I might add, that would scare you to death compared to today's rates. The last of the $80,000 I borrowed was at 19.25%. Hard to convince me that you can't do it, as I did it. and I come from a millworker bluecollar family.   I agree that the cost of education itself is very high today, but if a student wants an education, there is nothing stopping him or her.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM

Martin Gibson...I never cease to be amazed at how far you can miss the point and how narrow your viewpoint can be....and how quaintly you can sterotype entire groups of people.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 09:17 PM

I agreed with the original post in that in the US today, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is disappearing. This is nothing new; it's been going on, to a greater or lesser degree, since the advent of Reaganomics in the early 80s. My sister puts it succinctly: there are two classes in the US today, those with and those without stock portfolios.

Access to higher education, however, is not the worst aspect of this development. It *is* true that many opportunities for financial aid are available, most notably Clinton's "Hope" tax credit.

The negative aspect of educational financial aid is that more money is available in the form of loans than grants, and with rising tuitions and fees, a young student can easily get deeper in debt than they'll be able to handle, unless they not only complete a degree, but also get into an especially high-paying field. Salaries available to those with "ordinary" arts-and-sciences bachelors degrees aren't really enough to allow loan repayment along with normal expenses for food/rent/transporation, etc. And those who accumulate two or three years worth of college-loan debt and then fail to finish up -- they're in real financial trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 10:00 PM

I do aggree, poppagatoe, that if you do not finish your studies, your debt will be difficult to pay back, and I am concerned that the colleges are getting too expensive. the HOPE grant I am speaking of has nothing to do with Bill Clinton but was developed by Zell Miller in Georgia from the profits from the lottery. It allows students who keep a B average to attend any state college tuition free and even gives money for books. If you are a serious student who wants an education, you can walk out of college debt free.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 10:50 AM

Martin Gibson I can't tell if you ever mean anything seriously, or if you're ever going to decide which guitar you want, but I think you're partly right. Some people don't want to "move up." I probably don't agree with what else you might mean by it, though.

The semi-permeable class structure in the U.S. is complicated, and it probably is a factor that some people just don't identify with being in another class, and aren't motivated to strive for it.

    What would smart highly educated career-motivated people do I wonder if nobody would pick up their trash?

    What sort of crisis would ensue if interior designers quit? Would a whole class of people have to decide what they liked in their own homes?

My point is just that the fact that somebody could work toward a different class or level of pay doesn't excuse fair payment and decent respect for any job they do have. I think too often the possibility of mobility is used as an excuse for things being screwed up. Just move up, dummy. Don't worry about the fact that somebody has to do these low-status jobs. If I could find a doctor as good and thoughtful as that sales guy at radio shack I'd be happy. Instead, they seem like salespeople, he seemed concerned for my welfare. Odd.

The other side of the coin is people who do lousy work because society is unfair. Having to work with them is a living death.

My solution. Overpaid morons should be required by the IRS to demonstrate at least a dozen hundred-dollar tips each year to deserving service people and laborers. (Blue collar workers tip better than the wealthy.) Think how it would change society if superior efforts at basic jobs really were rewarded every now and then, whether anyone "moved up" or not.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 11:32 AM

I `ad that Martin Gibson in my cab once. As we drove round Windsor Park `e said it takes the President 6 hours to drive round his ranch.
I said yeah, I `ad a car like that once!!
What am I like??

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Dr Will C U Now
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 12:27 PM

The largest class society is "Economy". I know. I have flown United!

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 01:19 PM

"I'd rather live here in the U.S then with all those British women who don't shave their legs or armpits."<./I>

Good.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 04:49 PM

Now now, I only wish Martin Gibson would consider how much it hurts the feelings of European women, and my wife, that they don't appeal to him.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 05:36 PM

LOL! They would be devastated!

An interesting aside: In Cuba anyone can afford to go to college...because it's free. The young people I knew in Cuba said that the main impediment toward getting a higher education was the general shortage of cash, meaning you might not have enough spare time left over from work to take advantage of the free higher education, because you were too busy earning enough to just support yourself on a daily basis, and perhaps the seniors in your family...plus, the books and paper, etc were expensive.

Another aside: Before Castro a majority of Cubans were very poor, without medical care, and illiterate. Within 3 years after Castro there was almost 100% literacy on the island (and has been ever since), there was good free medical care everywhere, and things were considerably better for the average person. Since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact the economy has weakened greatly, and most Cubans are again very poor, but they still have good schools and good medical care.

In a general sense, Cuba struck me as the most classless and the least racist society I have every witnessed (this was about 3 years ago).

And yet, there are certainly people who want to get out...like the ones who converted a car into a boat the other day and tried to drive across the sea to Florida! There are numerous reasons for that...just like there are numerous reasons for people all over Latin America to want to get to North America. Cuba is no special exception to that...it's just the one that happens to be directly across the strait from Florida. But it is the only one that's being embargoed and treated like a pariah by the USA...

Why? Because Castro won't follow orders from Washington, that's why. That makes him an outlaw in the eyes of America. He has never been forgiven for kicking out the big corporations that ran Cuba before the revolution. It's all a question of moneyed interests. You cross those guys and you are out in the cold...or dead. Castro has managed to stay alive longer than anyone might have expected in 1960.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 06:06 PM

There was a pretty high cost in lives and self-esteem and free speech to get that 'free' medical care of debatable quality and 'free' education, the details of which were dictated by Castro. 30 years of watching people trying to leave tell me something about how the people felt.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 06:08 PM

To my fans:

Bill D.:
I'm glad you are amazed. I never miss the point. I am usually laughing at it because it is usually so ludicrous.

Fred Miller:
You are full of crap. Sorry, I wasn't really being serious.

Guest, Jim Knowledge
Please go to the store and buy the letter H. Your best bet is at Wal-Mart. On your cab driver salary, you should be able to afford it.

McGrath:
Double good.

Fred Miller (again)
I am not out to hurt all European women's feeling. Hell, I wish I could buy them all a comb for their legs and armpits.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 06:57 PM

Yeah, Bill, but whenever there's an armed revolution anywhere you have loss of life...and when it's over you have people who are delighted with the result and people who are devastated about it. Cuba was no exception. I've met Cubans who hate Castro, Cubans who admire and support him, and Cubans who simply put up with him because he is the "status quo". It all depends who you talk to. After your American revolution there were a lot of people who wanted to escape to Canada too...they were called "loyalists" (to the British crown). That's what revolutions are like. The medical care is good quality from what I hear, and I found no signs of lack of self-esteem in Cuba. Quite the contrary! I would say that the Cuban population is physically healthier than the North American population, particularly because so many people are grossly overweight in North America. The main concerns in Cuba are lack of money, lack of goods, and the unresponsiveness of the government bureaucracy.

To look at any place and simply consign it to an imaginary "Axis of Evil" or something like that can be very misleading. Cuba, like the USA or Canada, has its good points and its bad points. It's not all one way or all the other way. I can say this: without Castro's revolution ordinary Cubans under Batista were far worse off...and that is why his revolution succeeded in 1959.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 08:45 PM

martin Gibson: Maybe you know what you are talking about after all. You are obviously one of the people "who don't want to move up." Did you invent the term, "ignorance is bliss?"

I guess we can be glad that you do not want a better lifestyle but there are people who do and their best means of obtaining their hopes and dreams is through education.

Having said that, I wish to clarify that university does not insure a ticket to a better job. It does, however, contribute to personal growth. In my case, it seemed that it was the one thing that nobody could ever take from me. It was a good investment.

d

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 05 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM

Martin G., it's okay, I didn't think you were being serious. Just wish you didn't feel you had to explain it. You know you sound a little like a guy who used to post around here, but he was a little better at the same routine. No offense. He even did the "to my fans" sort of thing too.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM

To jimmyt: Clinton proposed, and Congress passed, the "Hope" tax credit, up to $1500 per year for tuition/fees applied to the first two years of post-secondary education. Obviously, the word "Hope" is also used for Georgia's in-state education-financing program -- which sounds similar to Louisiana's Taylor grants for students at in-state univeristies. But, please note that there is a federal education tax credit also called "Hope." Parents or first- and second-year college andf junior college students (as well as the students themselves, if they're self-suporting) should know about this and take advantage. (If you use a computer program like TurboTax, you will be prompted to

I'm not going to get into the Cuba controversy.

One other comment I'd like to add is that I agree with dianavan that college-level education is a desirable thing in and of itself, whether or not it results in increased earnings. And, in fact, a degree does NOT always guarantee a high income; I would guess that, in these days of rapidly increasing tuition costs, that a bachelor's degree is less and less likely to "pay for itself."

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jimmyt
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 02:59 PM

Poppagator, I am aware of the Hope Tax Credit developed in the Clinton Admin. WHat we have in Georgia is pure grant up to full cost in state schools plus additional funds for books and supplies. you are, by the way, exactly correct in your premise that a bachelors is not necessarily a road to higher pay. I have 2 daughters, both Registered Dental Hygienists, who make at least twice as much as my son who is a social worker who graduated with a 3.5 in Chemistry and has a masters now. A lot of it hinges on filling the niche that is present the old supply and demand bit. Life ain't fair.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 04:02 PM

Nope, it ain't. All you can hope for is to have a few friends who are.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: jacqui c
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 04:51 PM

Thank you Kevin for that comment. short, sharp and to the point.

Martin - I think you were probably joking but what's wrong with natural body hair? We don't ask you lot to shave those bits, do we? I remember seeing photos of Julia Roberts with hairy armpits. Isn't she American!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM

dianavan: I already have the lifestyle I want and have a well-paying corporate position that leaves me wanting for very little. True about the the university ticket. I'm working hard to put my kids through college.

jacqui c.: I really don't find Julia Roberts that hot. Nothing as appealing as a woman with that natural body hair growing under her nose, I suppose either.

Fred Miller: I'm not that other guy, but I wish he was still around.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: lady penelope
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM

The means to live comfortably or in luxury has always been the deciding factor in any civilisation. All The British did was make it a formality, that they hung on to long past anywhere else. It has always been about money. Even Jesus commented on this.

Pubic hair or no pubic hair is merely fashion.

TTFN Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 07:38 PM

M.G. Ha! Me too, every now and then, slow days.

But if I'm right, and according to me I usually am, you're more or less the same guy, especially insofar as Who cares. I named him Jose', I think. Would it be really rude of me to call you Jose'?

   Local Trivia! There was a movie called Lawn Dogs shot around here in Louisville, and it's pretty darn good, and a little weird.It was written by Naomi Wallace, who's Dad is or was a big wealthy communist here. Friend of Castro, apparently, but anyway. But Naomi's plays do very well in England, a little less so here. If you get a chance to see it you can kinda tell she's very class conscious, in a peculiarly formal way, and has people here say things that they really never would--I've been in those houses, met those people. Not that there isn't class, but it's quite different. Still a very good movie.


College is just college. It's silly to expect you'll necesarily get paid more. Nothing especially unfair about that. Most of us don't really need more than we have, so screw us and our whining about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:27 PM

Martin gibson: what about the kids who do not have a daddy that works hard to "put them through college"?

I'll bet you also have the money to buy them a car and a computer, too.

As a mature student with two teen-aged kids, I had to compete for grades with kids like yours. They went home everynight to a home cooked meal, a brand new computer and many opportunities I did not have. I also graduated with a debt of $50,000.00. I chose to do this and do not regret it but...

Get a grip. I doubt if you or your kids would have the motivation, the savvy, or the determination to put yourself through university if you had to pay for it yourself. Tell your kids to get a job and put themselves through college - then we'll see if you have a broader perspective.

d

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:47 PM

dianavan

I DID put myself through college, and yes I bought my kids a computer and one has his own used car. You should be lucky you went to school with kids like mine. They raised the bar for YOU. My kids repsect me and are greatful for what they have and they express it to me. I don't know why your kids did not have a father. Could be for many different reasons which you may or may not have had something to do with. However, you have no right to tell someone who has more than you honestly, to "get a grip." If syou think you do, I then have the right to tell you to quit whining and feeling sorry for yourself.

Fred, I'm not Jose, Joe, Joseph, or Joey. Martin will be good enough.

Lady Penelope, pubic hair isn't merely a fashion. It's something that gets caught in your teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:06 PM

Martin Gibson - whether or not my own children had a rich daddy is not the issue (actually they didn't, and none of us had anything to do with it). I already said I didn't regret it. Thats hardly whining.

Actually, I set the bar for your kids. Its not so easy to get by on Daddy's help when there are people like me challenging them to think. Many profs express their gratitude to mature students with real life experience. Otherwise they're left with the rich kids with daddy's like you.

It usually means the scum rises to the top. Bush is a good example.

d

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:54 PM

Martin, then, sorry. Did I forget to mention that I don't care?

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:44 PM

I know Martin. Let him rant--'cause what he says, or indeed, he himself, just do not matter any more than his one vote. George Bush is out there showing people what the world will look like when everyone thinks like Martin Gibson. Seeing him in the full daylight is the best assurance that the youth of the USA will realize those views ought to be put to rest. Every generation needs to see that danger for themselves though. That takes a little time. Then, eventually, an Emiliano Zapata or a George Washington or an F.D.R. comes along. When the kids are ready to hear what it means to be truly humane, those lucky enough to be alive then will live through the best of times instead of those worst of times Kipling also wrote of. It's those "worst of times" that turned the old Chinese saying, "May you live in interesting times" into the proverbial CURSE that it is.--------- I prefer May you live in the best of times. That's a matter of luck, mostly. Then, those others we decry here, hopefully, will be long gone !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:58 PM

I know Art.   Has-been folksinger from my hometown.

If you are going to dish it out, you have got to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM

M.G.--I'm still just trying to do my part.

This Cafe is a great place to spew polemics---for all of us. On we go doing what we can as we view it from where we sit---sort of like the Martian rovers. Intelligent---but not really in a human fleshy way----here in cyberspace drilling into the rocks and spinning our wheels in completely alien soil. Looking for water---dry as hell--like the old Sons Of The Pioneers song. But if they find what they're looking for, they can't even taste a drink of it. But I would like to shake your hand. Send me a P.M and we can figure a way I'll know you. You'll know me. I'm the large bearded gray-haired man in the wheelchair who has, as you said, seen better times music-wise. ---------- Say I forget to say where we can meet. How about Fred Holstein's memorial at the Old Town School Of Folk Music. That's April 3rd I think. Keep it confidential and don't say here in this thread how I'll know you. Just send the P.M.

And you are all too correct...

Yes, I'm one of the has-beens--a folksinger I mean,
I used to sing folksongs--and I used to pick clean,
I made the the notes flow like the soil from the plow,
But you may not believe me---because I can't do it now.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 11:15 PM

Well danged! A big ol' "duhhhh" from this ol' hillbilly. Iz been saying this fir the last two years 'round here and everyone jus' ignorin' me.... But...

.... now it's in vogue. Excuse me but where were you folks a year ago?

Yeah, welcome to the US of A. The new Third World country.... Peasant class at the top and bottom.... John Lennon knew of what he spoke!

Yeah, I can see a time when the "haves" of the haves/have nots equation are afriad to leave their compounds. No more taking to the roads with their $600,000 RV/buses with the car in tow 'cause some guy who has lost his job witha couple kids in college decides to shoot out a few tires of these Republican rich folks who think they own America.... Yeah, and then the rich folk find temselves increasingly isolated and living behind walls, much like the black men that they have incarcerated in the name of corporate profits...

Think about it.

As the Globalists have brought in cheap labor from South America they have been bust building prisons fir the Black men that used to do the work that tyhe incoming Hispanics are performing.

Like what is wrong with this picture?

Hey, I don't care if it took some of you folks to start to figure it out... The imporatnt thing is that you are starting to see what is going down...

Boss Hog MUST (excuse my yelling) be stopped from killing the USA...

What stupid people.

Waht kind of America are they willing to live in after they have bankrupted the middle class?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:37 AM

Martin Gibson: Why do you think you have more than me? I've been a professional for quite a long time now and wonder why you think that a corporate cog has more? More what? Material crap? Land? Oh you are so full of assumptions. I am willing to bet that my net worth is far greater than yours but that isn't the point of this discussion.

So, your kids are full of great, are they? Do you mean grateful? Why not? Its easy to say, "Thank-you, Daddy." Actions speak louder than words. We'll see what they decide to do with their lives and how much gratitude they show when they find out that "daddy" won't always be there with the cash to back em up...but maybe you will be. You won't be the first corporate cog who tries to buy love. Around here we call them Johns.

Somehow I think I probably have a whole lot more than you do. I have friends and family that care about me whether or not I pay their tab. Get a grip! ...and yes, I do have the right.

d

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 09:47 AM

I don't know Martin but I know when somebody is going around in the manner of a teen-age troll, no matter who they imagine they really are. The point is that "Martin" and most of his posts could've been invented by that kid, just for fun. So I choose to take them that way, rather than contemplate an alternative.

The only thing worse than whining is bending over backward to kiss one's own butt. One may deserve things, and one may even have some things, but it's still probably just a coincidence, a bit of luck. Personally I'm from the Hamlet school, and think most of us deserve a good whipping.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:47 AM

Hey, Martin:

You just been bitchslapped for cause, pal. The unexamined life is not worth living, as they say. There are parts of yours -- not your salary stub -- that need a review.

Mine too, now that I think of it...


A

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:54 PM

Martin hasn't been hit anymore than he hoped. He knows there's a thread about body hair, but he comes along here just trying to annoy people, even doing that old To My Fans bit. I don't know about Dianavan (who sounds like a nicer person than me to take Martin at face value) but I mean no offense to him, or to the vague existence I provisionally grant him for fun and amusement.                                                                I'm not yet convinced he's ever bothered to think whatever he thinks he thinks, so why should I go to the trouble. If he actually thought what he thought he wouldn't need to look for a fuss, and wouldn't be so predictable. He would have something interesting to say about it that I couldn't make up as a parody of "some guy like that" and it wouldn't be just a joke. (Almost there, in my opinion.) People on all sides of things like to suppose they are tough-minded when they are being hard-headed. Wouldn't most of us entertain a different idea if somebody had something interesting to say for it? Hell, I'll shave my legs and underarms if I hear a good reason, it's not that hard. I'll even congratulate myself for having come into some money lately, but I'm not very limber as to kissing my butt about it.
   Martin, man I already know I'm full of crap, so don't bore me with the news. But that stuff was some of my better crap damn it, and if you can't see that, you must be taking me more seriously than I do.
   I used to think that spare change from wealthy idiots was a useless gesture of false help to the underclasses, but that was based on figures that grossly under-estimated the amounts of spare change and the number of wealthy idiots who have it. People should do it.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:38 AM

Martin: I blame myself for bothering to respond to your crap.

I work on a team and they know me well. I am useful because I'm tough and can usually nail people on their bullshit but...every once in awhile I get a kick under the table or a whispered, "don't bite, let it pass." I have to remember to save my energy and pick my battles. Some people are not worth the effort.

Fred and Martin and Amos: Thanks for alerting me.

d

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:46 AM

Some cleverwit has just noted something interesting about Education in Australia.

The cost of a good private Secondary school that will give one a good chance of entry to University in the entry test is about $120,000 AUD over the period of attendance.

But now you can BUY a place at university without a good TE score, for $30,000 for a Commerce Degree.

And take into account the loss of income from teh save capital, etc, does this mean the end of private Schools in Australia? :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:14 AM

whatever happened to working one's own way through university..thousands have done it and survived. Is that out of fashion , politically incorrect or just a dumb notion ?

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:42 AM

In the South of Uk at least, the rents are astronomical and the odd bar job won't pay the bills anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM

The poor can do what the poor have always done.
Join the military and spend four years learning a job which they can take with them into the private sector if they decide to leave after their tour. They can also get the GI bill which has just been revamped to make it more worth while (you have to pay for it though which is the biggest problem because they take $100.00 per month for the first year, just when you are paid the least and likely need it most). Another problem is that earning the GI Bill and being able to use it are two different things. It's gotten harder over the years because of abuse. There are some states that are offering a full four year scholarship for joining the state Nat'l Guard. The military also offers college credit for on the job learning and performance and the different special training courses which we can attend.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: DougR
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM

ANYONE living in the U. S. that wants a college education can get one. True, it won't be handed to them on a silver platter, but it is available. How? Work for it! Our constitution does not guarantee success or happiness. It guarantees our right, the right of everyone to pursue it.

And Bill D., your remarks to Martin. A bit like the pot calling the kettle black it seems to me. These threads are jam-packed with similar generalized opinions it appears to me. They only draw criticizm, though when the writer's opinion does not jibe with majority opinion on the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:09 PM

"ANYONE living in the U. S. that wants a college education can get one. True, it won't be handed to them on a silver platter, but it is available. How? Work for it!"

When I first enrolled at the University of Washington in 1949, the quarterly tuition, as I recall, was $53.00. There were a few additional fees that amounted to maybe another $10.00, and textbooks averaged about $25.00. I lived at home with my parents (about ten minutes from campus) and my father financed my tuition. We were doing all right, but we weren't rich. When I returned to the U. of W. to study music in 1957, quarterly tuition had gone up to around $75.00. I paid for it by teaching guitar in the evenings.

The cost of everything has risen considerable (at least ten-fold) in the decades since then, but the cost of education, at least at a state university, has multiplied by about seventy times during the same period. Undeniable fact. Do the figures.

Current quarterly tuition requirements at the University of Washington:—

In State Tuition: $3638.00
Additional Required Fees: $777.00

That works out to $13,245 for a school year, assuming attending three quarters and taking the summer off. This doesn't take into account textbooks which, these days, can run an extra couple hundred dollars per quarter.

The schedule of fees for attending the U. of W. is much longer than this, including room and board if one wishes to live in the dorms. That runs $5844.00 per quarter (in the early Fifties, it was about $50.00 a month). But I included only the absolute minimum of what a resident student (having lived in Washington State for a minimum of a year) has to ante up when registering. Tuition for someone from out of state is $12,029 per quarter, plus the Additional Required Fees of $777.00, and he or she would have to either live in the dorms ($5844.00 per quarter) or find a nearby apartment (going price for a studio apartment within reasonable distance to campus is about $800.00—if you get lucky).

And this is a state university. Not a private school. Not Ivy League.

Let us assume that I'm eighteen and fresh out of high school. Let us also assume that I'm a good student, but not hot enough to qualify for a scholarship or grant—and being relatively sane and not much of a gambler, that I'd rather not graduate from school with a $40,000 to $60,000 student loan debt hanging over my head, especially when a fair percentage of today's university graduates find that there is a scarcity of the jobs they have prepared for out there (more than just factory jobs are being "off-shored"). The only way I could go would be if PhD ("Papa has Dough"), or if I could get a part-time job that paid me adequately to cover my school costs. So what is "adequately?"

Assuming I find a job that allows me to work full time during the summer and part-time during the school year, and assuming that I live at home with my indulgent parents, and assuming that I allow myself $25.00 a week spending money (out of which comes lunches, any CDs or non-textbooks that I might want to buy, bus fare to and from campus if I don't live within walking distance, an occasional cup of coffee between classes, etc., don't date, and otherwise have a highly limited social life), I would have to have a job that pays me a minimum of $12.00 an hour.

Now, where is an eighteen-year-old kid fresh out of high school going to get a job that pays $12.00 an hour, with a boss that will let him work part-time during the school year and full-time during the summer? He could maybe get a job throwing hamburgers out a window at passing cars, but those jobs only pay about half that. Well, of course, he could get two jobs. But when would he go to class? When would he study? When would he sleep?

How would you advise me, Doug?

"Our constitution does not guarantee success or happiness. It guarantees our right, the right of everyone to pursue it."

True. But there are countries in Europe where I could go to university for no cost and get a really excellent education. In at least one of the Scandinavian countries, depending on what courses you want to take, they will pay you to go to school, because they consider it an investment in the future of the country. I don't really expect egg in my beer, but why can't the richest country in the world do a little be better in this area than it does?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM

People (especially those on the right side of things) tend to forget the preamble to the constitution:
We the people (all of us, not just the rich and powerful)
In order to form a more perfect union (more perfect, meaning there are flaws and problems to overcome with the way things are)
Establish Justice (set laws to protect all)
Ensure domestic tranquility (Ain't gonna happen if the haves have and the have nots have not)
Provide for the common defense (i.e. the military which kind of throws the 2nd amendment in stark relief as far as that nasty little sentence which actually says for a "state militia")
Promote the general welfare (do for others who can't)
Ensure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity (meaning all those who follow - not just "our" kids)
Do ordain and establish this constitution (possibly rendering this document more important than the constitution itself)
For the United States of America

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:48 PM

Oh the angst! The angst of it all!

dianavan,Fred,Amos. please try to enjoy life as much as I do. Amos, if I've been slapped, they missed. I never said I was wealthy. You've just assumed it. I make a good living and can provide nicely for my self and my family. I work for a fine corpoation. I play music with fine people frequently.

Amos, my life is totally under control and I am having a ball!

dianavan, It is I who have always had a fine perception for bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 05:17 PM

Bravo, Chief Chaos! Well said!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,satchel
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:44 PM

Chief Chaos (although I do largely agree with him) needs to remember that the constitution hasn't always been what it's cracked up to be. Let's not forget that it originally contained numerous protections of slavery, to say nothing about women's voting rights until the second decade of the 20th century.

There's a larger issue at hand here, and I hope that I can shift the debate away from vilification of Martin Gibson, or anyone else above.

Why is it assumed that college is correct for everyone. The world needs plummbers, so to speak (who are likely to FAR outearn many college graduates, even at the masters and PhD levels). The fact that in this country, everyone is expected to go to college has so diluted the process that a BA is roughly the equivalent of a high school diploma, an MA is the new bachelors degree, and a PhD means that you might have some inkling of what's going on in your field.

There are plenty of people in college for personal growth, which is great, but there are also plenty there who are just doing it because they're tracked into it. Some of these are rich kids partying on daddy's money for four years, but others go to great financial effort to struggle through, for no real benefit, personal growth or otherwise.

Most of the northern European social democracies have varying levels of education, trade school, industrial, professional, and managerial education--in other words, JOB TRAINING, that actually do offer some assurance that one's education will correspond with one's job.

The World War II generation rightly considered a college education a way to get ahead. It's not like that anymore because just about everybody does it.

The trick now is to demystify higher education. There are plenty of people who don't belong in college. They shouldn't take up the space and resourses that someone who really wants to be there, regardless of income level, could be utilizing. I'm not saying that folks should become slackers, just that they should take the training that will give them the job they really want, and if they don't know what they want, working before deciding serves both them and the serious studnets in college far, far better. If college not for them, there's really no shame in other occupations, which leads me to my final point.

America has always been a classed society, because someone needs to do the manual labor. To suggest that the millions of non-college educated workers are somehow being deprived smacks of classism itself. It's the same kind of haughty superiority of a college education that created the attitude that has so glutted the system with people who shouldn't really be there. Even if every manual laborer in America earned a college degree, someone would still need to do that kind of work, even if it meant increased immigration. That manual labor still has plenty of value, and shouldn't be slighted just because the laborer didn't have the opportunity to go to college. Maybe his or her children will, thus continuing the patterns of immigrant generational betterment occuring in this country since its inception.

So, I ask again, why is it assumed that college is right for everyone?

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:12 PM

Satchel: I do not assume college or university is right for everyone. I do, however, think that if someone has the motivation and desire to go to university they should be able to do so without incurring a massive student debt, especially if they have proven aptitude. I have watched too many young students struggle with the burden of two jobs, university classes, homework, student loans and small children. Nobody said it would be easy or fair but that shouldn't stop us from demanding equal access to education.

I agree that at this point in time, a trade is far more practical and with so many tradespeople soon to retire, it is definitely needed. I also believe that there are many at university who are only there because of parental expectations. Young ladies looking for their Mrs. degree and young men who just want to party with dad's money.

Martin - You'd better hang on to your image of "provider". Without that, who would you be? Must be tough for your family though, always fearing that if they disagree they might be cut-off.

d

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:21 PM

dianavan

You want more? I'll give you more. Nothing wrong with being a provider, something my family and my WORKING PROFESSIONAL WIFE and I do as a partnership working hard in jobs that we were educated for. No one is going to get cut off by me or her. So please go back to your little mournful, "Oh my children have no rich daddy so pity me" Helen Reddy I am Woman self.

I'm not head of my family, I'm a partner in it, but you haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Please go try and find a boyfriend or something and get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: The largest class society in the world
From: Sam L
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM

Martin I don't want to get mixed up in other things you have going. I haven't meant to say anything about your personal life which I don't know anything about. I just can't take seriously your rude little hit-and-run posts, and think it's nice if you take the time to say what you have to say, whatever it is.

I'm having a pretty good time. There are a lot of thoughtful posts on this thread, and a few funnier ones.

College isn't the only aspect of class though, and even if something is possible it still might be more difficult than it needs to be for some, easier than it ought to be for others. There are all sorts of cultural biases that many of us have, and some of us practice. It might never be made fair, true, but an attitude of smug complacency about it never did anybody any good, and keeps turning out to be bad business strictly by the numbers.