Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:38 AM

Malcolm, I wasn't making a case for linking The Martyrs with Martyrdom as I haven't heard The Martyrs, I was merely asking if it were possible.
Burke, those of us brought up as Scottish Prebyterians have no difficulty in recognising Amazing Grace from Martyrdom, mainly, as Malcolm says, in the first part. If you can't hear that then your ears must be painted on.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:28 AM

Malcolm, I merely posed the question as I have not heard Martyrs (I don't think so, anyway) and therefore cannot compare it Martyrdom.
Burke, there is no mistaking the similarity between the melody of the first part of Martyrdom to AG ... if you can't hear that then your ears must be painted on. This however does not prove it is the model for AG but as I was raised as a Scottish Prebyterian (Wee Free!!) I have always noticed the similarity of Martyrdom to AG.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Burke
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:53 PM

Gosh, I thought there was just a double post. Now I notice Jim decided he needed to insult me twice. Insulting is certainly easier than trying to articulate what one is hearing, or why one finds similarities.

Tune similarity can be fairly subjective. I often find one tune making me think of another. When I listen more closely or look at the music I can decide what made them seem similar & may decide they are not particularly close afterall. As long as no claim is being made for one tune being model for AG, it doesn't really make that much difference.

Jim, you can follow my link to hear Old Martyrs. Nice tune, but different from the others mentioned in the thread.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:18 AM

Sorry Burke, my first post didn't appear to go through, hence my second post, I only meant to insult you once!!. I read that sometimes Martyrdom was called Drumclog but found the tune The Battle of Drumclog entirely different. When reading about this battle I found that coincidentally the Covenanters sang the psalm to the tune of Martyrs which prompted my posting. I can't find Old Martyrs on that web site but will keep looking. The tune mentioned by the Covenanters was just "Martyrs" so could this be a different tune to "Old Martyrs"?

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:50 AM

Is Amazing Grace in 3/4? I know the chart hits in the 70's were but I heard a wonderful story about a pipe band gathering where Amazing Grace waschosen as an en masse tune. Most of the bands played 3/4 but one band tutored by a traditionalist played a setting in 4/4 so unwaveringly that all the other bands fell apart.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Burke
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:37 PM

There are no guarantees on hymn tune names. There can be many names for the same tune (Avon, Martyrdom, Sacred Throne) and the same name used for completley different tunes. From literary mentions, it's a best guess, unless you know a specific tune was really popular & likely to be the one mentioned. My supposition is that a Scottish tune from 1615 was more likely to be the tune mentioned in Scotland in 1679, as opposed to one published over 100 years later. It seems like a tune could easily pick up an "Old" modifier between 1679 & 2000.

I found 'Old Martyrs' when I was scanning the CM (Common Meter) tunes in Cyberhymnal's Meter index. I thought the other link was better because it gives the background info. "Old Martyr" is the last thing listed next to the picture on the page.

Mantius, I've never seen Amazing Grace in other than 3/4 time. Did the 4/4 setting shorten the 1st note of the measure? It not being traditional as a pipe tune, one can only wonder why they would want to change it. I think I have seen Martyrdom in 4/4 & I think it's first publication was also.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:44 PM

The way it was sung to me the second note was lengthened.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,Peter Reynolds
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:16 AM

Versions of the tune Amazing Grace that are like how it is sung in the Highland psalm-singing tradition (initially very confusing to Sasunachs like me), are in Sing Psalms (Free Church of Scotland) and Songs of God's People (Church of Scotland).

Peter Reynolds
www.peterreynoldsbooks.co.uk

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 01:48 PM

Masato Sakurai posted a tune for Loving Lamb which was very close to the New Britain tune for AG and also suggested Hugh Wilson's Martyrdom (1800). I found the song listed as 'In evil long I took delight' which was also written by John Newton (author of AG) and set to Wilson's Martyrdom! (www.cyberhymnal.org). Coincidence or what!?
Subject to a printed version of a melody previous to Wilson's it looks as if Martyrdom could actually have been in a lot of musicians' minds when setting John Newton's works to music.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 08:21 AM

Jim, the "Loving Lamb" tune is named HARP in a Japanese hymnal, with Watt's ""When I can read my title clear". The composer is Stephen Jenks (1772-1856). Midi is here (No. 330). According to Wasson's Hymntune Index, the tune name is COMMUNION (also called RESIGNATION) in The Brethren's Tune and Hymn Book, 1872.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

Thanks, Masato. Do you know in which of Jenks' many collections (and when) this tune appeared? It's quite fascinating, if you change its timing but play the same notes, it's almost exactly the same as New Britain and the other two tunes you posted and the last phrase is straight out of Martyrdom. (Leave the timing the way it is and we can see where Cigareets and Whusky comes from!) By the way why did you post the tune with John Newton's lyrics? Thanks again, I'm enjoying this.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:22 PM

The Hymn Tune Index lists 4 tunes called "Martyrs" that are Common Meter & published before 1820. If I'm understanding this, 3 are variants of a tune, so there are really just 2. Either could be the tune mentioned, but 330a is also called "Martys Scotch." Following a tune from incipits is kind of mind blowing but I think that the one labeled 330a is the 'Old Martyrs' from Cyberhymnal.

Martyrdom seems to have missed the 1820 cut off date to be in the index. I could not find it.

Peter Reynolds, I was looking for information on 'Sing Psalms.' From what I could find it's all metrical Psalms & would not have Amazing Grace. Does it use the tune with one of the metrical psalms? Is there a recording of it?

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:00 PM

I thought I might add the full arrangement of Martyrdom from The Bristol Tune Book. Sacred music isn't my line, so I don't know how standard such arrangements are; but to my ear at least, it sounds, if anything, more akin to Amazing Grace as we know it today than does the pure melody line. A little improvisation and you have it. Of course, the familiarity of the metre may to an extent deceive the ear, perhaps.

See what you think. Multi-line abcs can be a bit messy, so this time it's a midi file:  Martyrdom: Bristol Tune Book arrangement, 1863

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:36 AM

That's the version I have always known, Malcolm. The two forms plus descant are printed in the Scottish Psalter, 1929, and when sung by a choir it's similar to the St Mary version (1829) posted earlier by Masato.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:28 AM

I have transcribed five multi-part versions below for midi. Copy and paste them (one by one) into CONCERTINA's ABC Convert-A-Matic.

X:1
T:New Britain
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=72
S: Southern Harmony, 1835
K:C
V:1
%%MIDI program 22
c|e2e|g2g|e2e|d2d|e2c/e/|g2f/e/|d2d|
V:2
%%MIDI program 72
G|c2e/c/|e2d|c2A|G2G|c2e/c/|e2d/e/|g2d/e/|
V:3
%%MIDI program 70
C,|C,2G,|E,2G,|C,2E,|G,2G,|C,2G,/A,/|C2A,|G,2G,|
V:1
c2c|e2g|e2e/d/|c2c|G2c|e2d|e2||
V:2
g2e/d/|c2A/G/|c2A/G/|G2G|c2e/c/|e2d|c2||
V:3
C2A,|G,2E,|G,2E,/D,/|C,2C,|C,2E,/G,/|A,2G,|C,2||
V:1
c|e2e|g2g|e2e|d2d|e2c/e/|g2f/e/|d2d|
V:2
G|c2e/c/|e2d|c2A|G2G|c2e/c/|e2d/e/|g2d/e/|
V:3
C,|C,2G,|E,2G,|C,2E,|G,2G,|C,2G,/A,/|C2A,|G,2G,|
V:1
c2c|e2g|e2e/d/|c2c|G2c|e2d|e3||
V:2
g2e/d/|c2A/G/|c2A/G/|G2G|c2e/c/|e2d|c3||
V:3
C2A,|G,2E,|G,2E,/D,/|C,2C,|C,2E,/G,/|A,2G,|C,3||

X:2
T:Amazing Grace
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=80
S:E.O. Excell, Make His Praise Glorious, 1900
K:Ab
V:1
%%MIDI program 48
|:E|A2c/A/|c2B|A2F|E2E|A2c/A/|c2B/A/|e2||
V:2
%%MIDI program 50
|:C|E2E/C/|E2E|F2D|C2C|E2E|E2E/E/|E2||
V:3
%%MIDI program 51
|:A,|C2A,|A,2A,|A,2A,|A,2A,|A,2A,|A,2G,/A,/|G,2||
V:4
%%MIDI program 49
|:A,,|A,,2A,,|E,2C,|D,2F,/A,/|A,2A,,|C,2A,,/C,/|E,2D,/C,/|E,2||
V:1
c3/4e1/4|e3/2c/e/c/|A2F/A/|A3/2B/A/F/|E2E|A2c/A/|c2B|A2:|
V:2
E|E2E|E2F|E2F/D/|C2C|E2E/C/|E2D|C2:|
V:3
A,3/4C1/4|C3/2A,/C|A,2A,|C3/2D/D/A,/|A,2A,|A,2A,|A,2G,|A,2:|
V:4
A,|A,2A,|C,2D,/F,/|A,2D,|A,,2A,,|C,2E,|E,2E,|A,,2:|

X:3
T:Amazing Grace
M:3/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=80
K:G
S:E.O. Excell, Coronation Hymns, 1910
V:1
%%MIDI program 48
|:D|G2B/G/|B2A|G2E|D2D|G2B/G/|B2A|d2B|
V:2
%%MIDI program 50
|:B,|B,2D|D2C|B,2C|B,2B,|B,2D|D2D|D2D|
V:3
%%MIDI program 51
|:G,|D,2G,|G,2F,|G,2G,|G,2G,|D,2G,|G,2F,|G,2G,|
V:4
%%MIDI program 49
|:G,,|G,,2G,,/B,,/|D,2D,|G,,2G,,|G,,2G,,|G,2G,,/B,,/|D,2C,|B,,2G,,|
V:1
d3/2B/d/B/|G2D|E3/2G/G/E/|D2D|G2B/G/|B2A|G2:|
V:2
D2D|D2D|C3/2D/C|B,2D|B,2D|D2C|B,2:|
V:3
B,3/2G,/B,/G,/|G,2G,|G,2E,/G,/|G,2G,|G,2G,/B,/|G,2F,|G,2:|
V:4
G,2G,|B,,2B,,|C,3/2B,,/C,|G,,2B,,|E,2D,|D,2D,|G,,2:|

X:4
T:St. Mary's
M:3/2
L:1/4
Q:1/4=120
S:Columbian Harmony, 1829
K:G
V:1
%%MIDI program 50
|:z2A2|B4d2|d4d2|g4g2|d4d2|d4d2|g4d2|d4d2|
V:2
%%MIDI program 49
|:z2D2|E4G/F/E/F/|G4GE|E4E2|F4D2|D4G2|G4A2|B4B2|
V:3
%%MIDI program 75
|:z2DE|G4B/A/G/A/|B4AG|G4E2|D4D2|G4BG|B4A2|d4B2|
V:4
%%MIDI program 51
|:z2D,2|G,,4D,2|G,4G,A,|B,4A,G,|A,4B,A,|G,4G,2|G,4D,2|G,4G,2|
V:1
d4g2|g4d2|B4ed|d4d2|d4g2|g2d2c2|B4:|
V:2
B4BG|B4G2|E4E2|F4FE|D4G/F/E/F/|G4F2|G4:|
V:3
d4Bd|G4EG|G4E2|D4DE|G4B/A/G/A/|B4A2|G4:|
V:4
G,4G,2|G,4G,A,|B,4A,G,|A,4B,A,|G,4G,2|G,4D,2|G,4:|

X:5
T:Gallaher
M:3/2
L:1/4
Q:1/4=120
S:Columbian Harmony, 1829
K:C
V:1
%%MIDI program 49
|:c2|c4GA|c4ge|c4de|G4c2|c4GA|c4ag|g4c2|
V:2
%%MIDI program 75
|:GA|c4ec|e4dc|c4A2|G4GA|c4ec|e4|de|g4e2|
V:3
%%MIDI program 50
|:C,2|C,4CA,|C4G,2|C,4D,E,|G,4G,E,|E,4CA,|C4D,E,|G,4C2|
V:1
c4G2|c4e2|g4ed|d4c2|c4GA|c4ge|c6:|
V:2
g4eg|c4c2|c4A2|G4GA|c4ec|e4dc|c6:|
V:3
C4C2|A,4G,2|C4C,2|G,4G,E,|C,4CA,|C4G,2|C,6:|

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,Ali m
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 11:54 PM

The tune bears a strking resemblance to an old Scottish tune Lady Ellen of Killin which was modified twice by American composers/ musicians and finally arrived at what we have today

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,mallaidh
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 09:02 AM

I haven't read all of the foregoing so forgive me if I'm repeating. Come on folky-folks we, of all people, know that nothing is new. Someone once said that there are only 3 stories and 6 tunes (or was it the other way about?) I am sure that the song was written by the reformed slave shipper (I had his name the other day in connection with something else but I'm afraid my semi-senile brain has lost it!) but the fact that he wasn't a professional composer/musician makes it even more likely that he would have borrowed a tune or the elements of a tune from elsewhere and words and phrases from things he had heard too.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: IanC
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 10:23 AM

Dear Mallaidh

It really is a pity you didn't bother reading the thread. John Newton wrote quite a few hymns. He was essentially a "professional". However, the tune wasn't associated with the words until the 19th Century. This Message above gives some pretty good information. Had you thought to read it, you might have learned a bit about the song.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 10:28 AM

This is an old discussion that gets revived periodically, sometimes by people making relevant comments; sometimes not.

I'd be interested in some detail from 'Ali' concerning 'Lady Ellen of Killin', however. It isn't a tune name I've ever come across, and a quick online search returns no references. If it's old, as described, then it will appear in print or MS collections. A reference or two would be helpful.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:57 AM

Amzing Grace is a Scottish song

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:30 PM

Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?

no, though there are those who would class it as such simply because the tune is a traditional Irish one.

The words were written in 1772 by an Englishman, John Newton. Newton wrote this hymn some time after converting to Christianity in the village of Kineton, in Warwickshire, England. The lyrics are based on his reflections on an Old Testament text(1 Chronicles 17:16-17) he was preparing to preach on, adding his perspective about his own conversion while on his slave ship, the Greyhound, in 1748.
The music is an Irish melody, trad. arr. William Walker.

-sourced from Wikipedia


Charlotte (the view from ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:34 PM

Amazing Grace

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 04:26 PM

Well I claim to know little about hymns but I find that the air to The Lord's My Shepherd has some similarity but I don't know if it pre-dates Amazing Grace.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Nick E
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 08:05 PM

WOW it's a Mudcat Slugfest!
And It Will Never End!
Love the tune can play it on my little whistle!

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Mar 08 - 05:09 AM

The Lord's my Shepherd, is usually sung to the tune Crimond, written by Jes­sie S. Ir­vine, in 1872.

G

ref here

Subject: Tune origins: "Amazing Grace" or "New Britain"
From: Genie
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 05:21 PM

Some hymnals list the tune most commonly used for "Amazing Grace" as "New Britain."   
Does anyone here know where that tune comes from or who wrote it, and when?

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 05:35 PM

I found this easily on Google, does nobody else look there?

"Like many old hymns, Amazing Grace, perhaps the most popular of them all, has a piecemeal history, and a not altogether clear one. Its words were written by John Newton and first appeared in the 1779 Olney Hymns book. But the author of the last of its seven stanzas, which begins with the words "When we've been there...," is unknown. The melody, popularly thought to be written by James Carrell, appeared in the volume Virginia Harmony (1831) and was used for the song New Britain. But some now attribute an earlier version of the tune to Charles Spilman and Benjamin Shaw, whose music anthology Columbian Harmony was published in 1829. To confuse matters a bit further, the words and tune first appeared together and in the form we know today in 1835, in Southern Harmony by William Walker."

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/amazing-grace-tune-new-britain#ixzz1r6s3uS2a

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 10:32 PM

Look at the date on the OP,Ebor--this thread started before answers.com existed. And it looks like much of the "answers" answer appeared here first.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Beer
Date: 04 Apr 12 - 11:20 PM

And sometimes folks like to get a discussion going without looking for answers on Google.
and that is O.K. with me.
ad.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Apr 12 - 12:10 AM

Jessye Norman knocks it out of the park.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Jun 12 - 11:46 PM

William "Singing Billy" Walker, a nice, short (under 10 mins) video from South Carolina ETV about the guy who first published the text "Amazing Grace" in combination with the tune "New Britain" in the shape note hymnbook, Southern Harmony. Some 600,000 copies of Southern Harmony were sold prior to the Civil War (and it's still in print), the equivalent of about 8 million copies today.

New Britain at Southern Harmony online.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Jun 12 - 06:12 AM

I know this is a ridiculous suggestion, but I'm saying it just to point out that some people's reasoning is equally ridiculous...

Amazing Grace is a pentatonic melody, so could easily be Chinese in origin...!!

Hah!!

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 11:31 AM

How long is it before someone comes up with the brilliant suggestion (I shall blow a fuse at this rate!) that Amazing Grace is not only Celtic but also a pagan creation which has been tampered with by Christians?

NO! It's not effing Celtic! Get over it, people!

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 04:13 PM

And it's not an effing song! It's a HYMN - ie it praises God (from the Greek "Koine" original)

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 04:53 PM

Can't a hymn be a song?

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: meself
Date: 01 Apr 17 - 08:25 PM

It's interesting that GUEST's post asking "How long is it before ... " showed up five years after the previous post - I guess GUEST is getting impatient ....

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 06:14 AM

The MIDI for Martyrdom has gone. Here's an ABC (works in Barfly; abcm2ps doesn't see the transpose indication on the tenor line).

X:1
T:Martyrdom C.M.
S:R.A. Smith, Sacred Harmony of the Church of Scotland, "Class Edition" (c.1830?)
V:1
V:2
V:3 transpose -12
V:4 bass middle=d
M:3/2
L:1/2
Q:1/2=90
K:Bb
[V:1] F|B2 G|F2 (B/c/)|d2    c      |B2||d|f2    (d/c/)|B2 d|c2||
[V:2] F|F2 E|D2 (F/G/)|F2    F      |F2||F|F2    (F/E/)|D2 F|F2||
[V:3] d|d2 B|B2  B    |B2 (3(A/c/e/)|d2||d|d2    (B/A/)|B2 B|A2||
[V:4] B|B2 B|B2 (d/e/)|f2    f      |B2||B|B2     f    |b2 B|f2||
%
[V:1] f|d2 c|B2  d    |e2    d      |c2||d|(F G) (B/c/)|d2 c|B2|]
[V:2] F|F2 A|B2 _A    |G2    F      |F2||F|(D E) (F/G/)|F2 E|D2|]
[V:3] A|B2 e|d2  B    |B2    B      |A2||B| B2    B    |B2 A|B2|]
[V:4] f|b2 f|g2  f    |e2    B      |f2||B| B2   (d/e/)|f2 f|B2|]

The only resemblances to Amazing Grace are that they're both in triple time and CM.

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM

Has anybody raised the more important question, is it "P" or "Q" Celtic?

Subject: RE: Is 'Amazing Grace' a Celtic song?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Apr 17 - 09:46 AM

All hymns are songs but most songs are not hymns, get over it ebor fiddler.

Dave H