Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:18 PM

D'oh!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:22 PM

Cinque cento you mean I think.

G

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:23 PM

I've read this thread ad nauseum, trying to figure out exactly what point(s) Walkaboutsverse is attempting to make. For someone who allegedly has a university degree, Walkaboutsverse's research to back up his pronouncements appears to be absolutely non-existent. The onus is on you, Walkaboutsverse, to prove your theories, and not on the rest of us
Love the Wiley E. Coyote analogy hee, hee, hee

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:38 PM

Vegetable, Sedayne...prepared the usual way and then added to a pot with baked beans and, today, lettuce. From there it goes into a bowl to be dipped into with (as I knew them about 35 years ago) "soldiers" - toast cut into strips. Oh, yes, red sauce is added, just prior to that.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:50 PM

Lettuce, in soup???? Hardly traditional.... =))))
Anyway, I thought that traditional was more than just what we call by the strange name of 'folk' music, music without a known author.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:06 PM

red sauce is added

I'm guessing Heinz tomato sauce, right? Worcester Sauce might prove an interesting addition. Otherwise - seems like soldiers are universal, though we'd dip ours in soft boiled eggs. Of course, Gregg's stotty is perfect for this.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:05 PM

And, whilst we're at it, don't forget to include the U.S. G.I.'s favorite (and someone has probably composed a song to memorialize it), creamed chipped beef on toast, alias S.O.S. Heinz or Worcestershire is very optional... If no one HAS composed such a piece, I see a whole new thread opening up.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:08 PM

"Anyway, I thought that traditional was more than just what we call by the strange name of 'folk' music, music without a known author." Volgadon - please surf back to this post of mine "Date: 21 May 08 - 12:56 PM; some seem to get most upset if they actually agree with me on something, but I'm afraid you just did...will you sleep tonight?!
That was it - soldiers "into soft boiled eggs" Sedayne; but sometimes they, with their yokie pilot, would be flown into one's young gob as an aeroplane, yes? Neither my local baker nor supermarket have stotties, sadly (at least they have Warbuton's sliced bread), but, whenever I'm in towm, I always get a couple from Gregg's.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:14 PM

Did I? That's news to me, as I was saying that I absolutely disagree with your assertion that 'traditional' excludes songs with a known author. I reluctantly used the term folk to reffer to songs with unkown authors, but that doesn't imply any agreement with you. I still hold that traditional songs are those which were collected, be the author known or long-forgotten.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:31 PM

He's doing it again, twisting other people's words around to make it appear that they are agreeing with him.

To re-iterate. I've noted that Walkaboutsverse is very good at doing this, making it appear that a person is agreeing whole -heartedly with his (Walkaboutsverse) point of view, which, most assuredly, I do not.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:44 PM

No, Volgadon - for another e.g., when I've watched Classical TV, either the composer's name OR the word "traditional" comes onto the screen, if someone has done a classicised version of a folk-song with an unknown composer.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:48 PM

He misses the point constantly, and deliberately (I swear). Songs, ditties, whatever ALL had a composer at some point, this sort of thing doesn't JUST appear out of thin air, we may have forgotten or never known the names of these people, but just because we have doesn't mean they never existed. Ye Gods!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:58 PM

would be flown into one's young gob as an aeroplane

As a kid, I'd make an entire aeroplane of a single stotty; actually two entire aeroplanes, Spitfires, one out of each half, sliced down the middle, and fried before adding the bacon & ketchup. Don't eat red meat at home these days, but this stirs in me a memory that might have to be revisited. Time I thawed out another stotty...

Warburton's sliced white is good with fish and chips (Pisces in Fleetwood; Christian's in North Shields; Seashells in Monkseaton...) but my favourite sliced loaf is Morrison's Sunflower & Pumpkin Seed.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:32 PM

More TV! This is an example of what happens when a mind is fed a combination of television and instant soup-

WAV, are you aware that some of the people here are trained musicians, and many have been performing "folk music" for twenty, thirty, forty, years and more? Some are collectors who have done the kind of field work that you only imagine--There are songwriters, some of whose work is well known, academics of various other sorts, and a fair number of people who can actually cook, as well--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:06 PM

This, of course, is not the first time that someone who discovered folk music (or anything else you can name) just two weeks ago leaps to the podium and condescends to explain it all to those who've been at it all their lives.

Sort of like a freshman back from his first quarter at college. He knows EVERYTHING and is more than eager to explain it all to his father and uncles, all who hold Ph.Ds.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:26 PM

and a fair number of people who can actually cook, as well--

I was feeling left out until I saw cooking might qualify me.

I can even make bread - I don't need that Warburtons stuff. Just get some flour produced at a local watermill and I'm away...








(of course I do need a breadmaking machine...)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 May 08 - 07:39 PM

GUEST,Volgadon

I still hold that traditional songs are those which were collected, be the author known or long-forgotten.

So a song doesn't become traditional until it's been collected? What were they before?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 08 - 08:19 PM

Cooking is a folkway--those who can stand the heat Washington in July know that the Smithsonian Folklife Festival always features both music and food from the areas of interest--this year, Bhutan and Texas-

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:18 PM

Forget about the points for debate--and just listen--this is your "old time, down home, grassroots harmony" and if it's not exactly traditional, it's better.Dim Lights, Thick Smoke...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:51 AM

"GUEST,Volgadon
I still hold that traditional songs are those which were collected, be the author known or long-forgotten.
So a song doesn't become traditional until it's been collected? What were they before? "

Unknown. I'm sure many, many other songs were sung in the 'tradition' (I hate that term, can't think of a more convenient one) but if they weren't collected, or mentioned anywhere, how can we know about them?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Melissa
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:16 AM

There are still songs that haven't been "collected"
I don't care about nit-picking terminology, but if I DID care, I wouldn't like the idea of our old-old local music being considered non-traditional for having survived in an isolated pocket and passed by ear.

The idea of Trad=Collected is probably a good basic guideline but maybe not an overly complete categorical definer.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:27 AM

No, I'm not saying that it's untraditional, but if nobody knows about it.... You are right, there isn't an overly complete definer.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Melissa
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:28 AM

I'd say that a good term for a song that NOBODY knows is "lost"?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:28 AM

"This, of course, is not the first time that someone who discovered folk music (or anything else you can name) just two weeks ago leaps to the podium and condescends to explain it all to those who've been at it all their lives.

Sort of like a freshman back from his first quarter at college. He knows EVERYTHING and is more than eager to explain it all to his father and uncles, all who hold Ph.Ds.

Don Firth"

Presumably, this is where we get the term Sophomore (wise fool)?

It's not just the fact that WAV wishes to condescend to everyone on Mudcat. Note: someone suggested earlier that if he would actually sit back and listen to some of the points made here, he might learn something. But WAV is not here to LEARN. He is here to TEACH. And to pimp his risible "life's work" by providing as many links to it as possible. He has made it very clear that a ten-a-penny humanities degree and a few childhood tennis trophies make him the intellectual superior of everyone around him, and his website - a huge, onanistic homage to himself - serves to prove that he is, in his own mind, a great literary and musical talent. As many people as possible obviously need to be made aware of this...

But there are plenty of attention-seeking nutters on the internet. Myspace is certainly littered with them. Keeps them off the streets, I guess. The thing I really find objectionable is that WAV harnesses his very dubious monocultural politics to English traditional culture. Anyone reading his pronouncements on cultural isolationism, the role of women, homosexuality etc, and then sees that this person espouses English folk music as representative of his world view, is doing the tradition the worst kind of damage.

If it weren't for this, I'd say his self-important, barely literate ramblings were best ignored. I'm half inclined to believe that this is probably the case anyway.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:54 AM

Thanks, M.Ted for the Dim Lights, Thick Smoke link, just the ticket first thing in the morning.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:39 AM

...And good morning!, all - lovely day in Newcastle. Firstly, I'd like to think I'm more than instant soup and TV, M.Ted; and I'll look out for that Sunflower & Pumpkin Seed bread, Sedayne. It's a bit more than "two weeks" into folk for me Don - it was 4 years ago that I first turned up at a folk club, and a year later I started playing recorders and keyboards, and learning those beloved single-line melodies that English folk music, at least, is mostly, NOT all, about. But, frankly, despite reading ALL (as ever) your criticisms, I'd like to think I came into the game with a pretty handy background, documented somewhere above, or here, if you like. In an anthology of English poetry, you will find "anon." for a poem of unknown authorship; but, within music, you will find "trad."

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:05 AM

I can even make bread - I don't need that Warburtons stuff. Just get some flour produced at a local watermill and I'm away...

Interesting link, I'll be sure to look it up if we pass that way during our Norfolk jaunt in June.

Thing with bread is, baking it is fine, but buying it is fine too because, try as I might, I cannot make a satisfactory stotty cake! And as already indicated, when it comes to Fish & Chips, I need a nice shite sliced white with which to make butties & mop up afterwards. And that Morrisons Pumkin & Sunflower Seed bread is rather special, likewise those loaves of Greenhalgh's olive bread they sell here in Booth's. I dare say this is analogous to folk, in that folkies tend to play & sing as much as they consume professional folk product via CDs, records & radio, though I think of it more by way of exotica, whereby if I want to listen to virtuouso Iranian traditional Santour music (like THIS, filmed in the Music Department of Durham University!) I'm hardly likely to try and play it myself, though I will absorb its influence...   

Most of my listening goes on in the bakery these days, or else the kitchen, which is the only place I can listen to music of my own choosing without having to consider the tastes of others. It gets so if I want to listen to something really elaborate, I plan a really long session of cooking - though by really elaborate I'm thinking more of, say, Jordi Savall's masterful Don Quixote album than anything folky as such. That said just yesterday I was playing the vinyl copy of Peter Bellamy's Won't You Go My Way? (Butter & Cheese & all!) that's currently in my keeping, though not, I hasten add, in the kitchen (where, of course, there is no turntable bar the Lazy Susan) but certainly loud enough to hear it from there.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:46 AM

Melissa

I'd say that a good term for a song that NOBODY knows is "lost"?

Indeed. A bit Zen. How do you collect a song that nobody knows?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:02 AM

Such a song was collected from an old fisherman in North Shields in 1927. The Collector, who shall remain nameless, mislaid his notebook and upon going to seek out said fisherman discovered that he'd suffered a massive stroke the previous day which had rendered him incapable of speech or singing. The Collector could only remember the basic sense of the song which was of such a unique quality & undoubted hoary provenance that in his attempts to remember it he resorted to drink, drugs, and, upon the actual death of the fisherman, spiritualism. Alas, all to no avail, whereupon he lost his wits entirely. As recently as 1977 he could be found wandering the grounds of St. Nicolas' Hospital in Gosforth muttering about how he once collected a song that nobody knows...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:11 AM

This kills a lot of rubbish posted above...

From an ad inside an Oak Publication copyrighted 1976

A FOLKSINGER'S GUIDE TO GRASS ROOTS HARMONY
Edited by Ethel Raim and Josh Dunson
ustrated by Art Rosenbaum

Here are 42 songs presented in traditional folk harmony in a collection of ways to sing them. The tunes have been transcribed from the singing of the Carter Family, the Stanley Brothers, Woody Guthrie and Cisco Houston, Rosa and Doc Watson, Pete Seeger, the Staple Singers, the Georgia Sea Island Singers and others.

000004/$3.95

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:18 AM

A song may be written down by some means of transcription (of the many possible), or recording of the aural waves. The song may be forgotten by every person on earth.

Someone then coming along and finding this material will be discovering 'a song that nobody knows'.

So There!

I'm not making this stuff up you know...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:31 AM

...if that someone records it onto a C.D., Foolestroupe, the word "traditional" will/should appear next to its name.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for the Santour link, Sedayne--the problem, of course, is that after listening to the posted video, I meander through "related videos", and on to "related videos" "related videos", and the morning is shot--

But seriously, I think we should have some sort of daily,"Morning Music Fix" thread, with links to such inspirational things--it will make a nice alternative to all this small talk--Why don't I just do it?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:43 AM

"A Treatise of Nations":- "Forge, Courte and Kings"
Simon Butler,circa 1488
"......Hughe did then us treat with his song and melody, so finely sung with heart and spirit that my lady did call for more. She would brooke no hold on his expense nor gainsay his source even though she did knowe the verse from childhood as well she knew her kin...."

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:49 AM

That's more like it, JfromK; what "small talk" M.Ted?!... these are important matters...how high a pop-singer's heels are is small talk.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Melissa
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:17 AM

That's a truly haunting tale, Sedayne.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:23 AM

WAV, that is one definition of traditional, authorship unknown, but hardly the only or best one. Try something found in a tradition. Your trouble is that you decide on definitions and insist on forcing everything to fit. Kind of like inserting a square into a circular hole.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:49 AM

That's a truly haunting tale, Sedayne

I must point out that whilst based on a certain incident, it is, in fact, the synopsis of a short story I've been working on for a while now, called The Collector. The song is at last sung in a moment of clarity on The Collector's death-bed, but the nurse in attendance at that moment is new to the ward, and hears it only in the context of the ramblings of a dying madman. It only later, upon reading the case notes, that he realises what he's heard, and what himself is now the unwitting carrier of...

It's based on the idea that we remember subconsciously everything we've ever heard, just we can't access it the way we can with things we've deliberately learnt. I have an idea that this nurse somehow cherishes this unknown heritage in the hope that, one day, even upon his own death-bed, it will, at last be revealed. Perhaps he makes some provision for this, and when at last he does remember it, it turns out to be something quite commonplace, or otherwise unremarkable, but none the less significant given its provenance. I don't know - as I say, it's just an idea in the throes of nascence!

But seriously, I think we should have some sort of daily,"Morning Music Fix" thread, with links to such inspirational things--it will make a nice alternative to all this small talk--Why don't I just do it?

Excellent idea, but surfing YouTube is a perilous pursuit; how I got from Dim Lights, Thick Smoke to a video of two Japanese girls in nurses uniforms snogging passionately I'll never know...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:57 AM

...maybe "the collector" (Sedayne) became gravely ill on holiday in Kyoto ..?!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:08 AM

When Malcolm Douglas talks about the collected versions of a particular song, it is important--you are just a folkie newbie, WAV, so it is just conversation--best thing for you to do is to listen to Ernie, Molly, and Merle sing "Dim Lights" about twenty times in a row--a lot to be learned there--

Which reminds me that in American taverns up until the time of prohibition, it was the custom for the gentlemen to informally gather and sing the old songs in improvised four part harmony--many of the songs sung in this fashion were collected in the volume, "My Pious Friends and Drunken Companions", and a number of those songs are among the body of songs typically regarded as "traditional"--

The harmony tradition was widespread much celebrated, and its passing was much lamented, Prohibition(1920-1933) surely killed it, but it had been fading away, even before then, for much the same reason that the old social singing customs were disappearing in the UK--

Even though the custom has died out, harmony singing still is regarded as having a special fraternal and familial quality about it:

Daddy sang bass (mama sang tenor)
Me and little brother would join right in there
Singin' seems to help a troubled soul
One of these days and it won't be long
I'll rejoin them in a song
I'm gonna join the family circle at the throne

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:13 AM

I had to read, "it was 4 years ago that I first turned up at a folk club" at least a dozen times with, I must admit, a look of complete amazement on my face. Four years you say, and YOU DARE to come in here and try to tell others what is and what is not, in folk music. I have but one thing to say to you, Walkaboutsverse, you may leave the room at anytime you wish, not only are your various claims unsubstantiatable, your pretentiousness knows absoutely no bounds. You'd like to think that you're more than instant soup and TV? The term sound bytes are us comes to mind.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:34 AM

To D.S: at a new manufacturing company, I'd say I learn about 80% of what goes on in the first couple of months (not years), and I've heard others say the same. Folk music is of course a different game and I will learn more about it, of course; but, I repeat, I did come into it with a pretty handy background, and the "tools" to know what to look for. And what I've done so far is very folkie - I travelled etc., I wrote the verses, I found a way to sing some of them (without being able to read or write music), and then taught myself the latter two, via recorder and keyboards. And I think I've done okay as an amateur, placing in festival comp's etc., thus far.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:40 AM

But your 'verses' are not really folk are they? Your background? A degree in the humanities is hardly a 'pretty handy background' Travelling? I've done that, as have my children, it has no bearing on how we perform the music, yes we are a musical family. I stand by, with conviction, what I've already stated.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:57 AM

People seem to get highly agitated over the ramblings of this silly man but are quite willing to let statements that -

[before traditional songs are collected they are] Unknown. I'm sure many, many other songs were sung in the 'tradition' (I hate that term, can't think of a more convenient one) but if they weren't collected, or mentioned anywhere, how can we know about them? Volgadon

go by unchallenged.

Who is "we" in this context, Volgadon?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:05 PM

"But your 'verses' are not really folk are they?"...Have a look, DS - you may find I was a folkie before I was a folkie. One thing I am still trying to figure out, frankly, is this: I'm sure I should record my selection of hymns with keyboards set on the "pipe organ" voice/sound, but I'm not sure whether I should record folk songs unaccompanied or the way I practise them - with just the melody played on my keyboard, set to the "piano" voice...? I have, so far, recorded "The Water is Wide" the latter way - and with a tenor-recorder intro.
And some frankness from you, DS - how has your folk-music learning-curve been? Did you learn most of what you now know in your first enthusiastic year or two? Has it levelled-off at all? Has it gone all pear-shaped?!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:33 PM

how has your folk-music learning-curve been? Did you learn most of what you now know in your first enthusiastic year or two? Has it levelled-off at all? Has it gone all pear-shaped?!

Speaking for myself, WAV - I've been an active participant in Folk & Traditional Song now since I was fourteen in 1976, and I'm still learning the ropes, and still making new and momentous discoveries. That said, I suppose by 1980 I might have thought I knew it all too, but I was only 18, four years a folk singer (amongst other things!), but 28 years down the line, aged 46 (which is still young for the baby-boomer folk scene!) I'm still getting to grips with it, and still enjoying the process of being a folk-singer which is an end in itself. It never levels off, let alone go pear-shaped, because no matter where you're at, you can always be better.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:46 PM

" you may find I was a folkie before I was a folkie." Sorry, no you weren't, nor do I believe you are now. My learning is on-going, one day at a time, one tune at a time, one set of lyrics at a time, and , you know, I still don't know anywhere near enough songs, and I've at it for forty years, if you want to talk about time quantity. Other than as a point of reference, Walkaboutsverse, I have absolutley NO interest in your work, and anyone that suggests they learned most of what they know and I quote "I'd say I learn about 80% of what goes on in the first couple of months (not years)" I'd say not.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:06 PM

"People seem to get highly agitated over the ramblings of this silly man but are quite willing to let statements that -

[before traditional songs are collected they are] Unknown. I'm sure many, many other songs were sung in the 'tradition' (I hate that term, can't think of a more convenient one) but if they weren't collected, or mentioned anywhere, how can we know about them? Volgadon

go by unchallenged.

Who is "we" in this context, Volgadon?"

Anyone that isn't part of the 'tradition'. As much as I love Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, etc., I won't kid myself, I'm not part of that.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:07 PM

"1980 I might have thought I knew it all too" (Sedayne)...okay - except for the "too", as I just said I'm still learning, and even gave an e.g. of something I'm currently trying to figure-out (see above, again). And your last quote was regarding manufacturing, DS.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:09 PM

20 years and counting here - and I consider myself a neophyte. So much still to learn, and I learn so much from the people here - not because they have a "degree in humanities" but because many of them have engaged in serious, specific academic study about folk music and traditions. They have context for their opinions, they can cite academic references - heck, some of them ARE the academic references.

As I said often to your friend Lizzie: more listening and less talking wouldn't go amiss. And it would keep you from looking like a complete numpty most of the time.