BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:43 AM

"that is precisely what the upper class parents do when they send their children to boarding school!!"

Perhaps. Apart from all the dosh they fork out.. ;-)

It's still very prevalent assumption amongst working class families in particular however, that their children's education has absolutely nothing to do with them. In my own experience, there was great resentment from some families that parents should ideally help their children to read before going to school, or that they should bother to supervise or assist them with their homework.

I'm speaking from personal experience, where some of my own family and my partners (working class) were either actively obstructive in some instances or dismissive of the schools requests for any kind of parental effort to aid and participate in their children's schooling.

By contrast the children of those middle-class families I knew in my peer group (not necessarily exceedingly wealthy ones) took time out to get involved. The kids from the middle-class families in the private estates tended to go on to do A'Levels, while the kids from working-class families in the council estates tended to leave at 16.

As I was at a secondary modern with a catchpool of both middle classes and working classes, I can bare witness to the difference in both attitudes of parents and resultant successes or otherwise, of their children at the same school.

This thread possibly doesn't have much baring on what happens at boarding school, where children are err 'at school' all the time. So parents don't have an active role in their childs education, or indeed in *any* of their child's daily life.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:18 AM

I don't doubt that some parents take little interest in there children's education. I have spent enough time at parents evenings both as a teacher and as a parent to know this.

I was just making the point that it isn't simply based on social class. And when parents send their children to boarding school it is precisely the equivalent of leaving them at the school gate except it is for a lot longer. In that context the fact they have paid for the privilege is more or less irrelevant.

There is a huge amount of literature and research that has been done on the relationship between social class and education. Anyone interested beyond the merely anecdotal has plenty to go at!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:34 AM

Well, hello to 'Daisybell's' Mum! :0)

Now, I wonder who that could be....?

"We did not choose the school because it was single sex, but because geographically, economically and academically, it made the most sense for us."

But, you moved there *because* of the school, didn't you? I'd presume you moved there because you wanted the best for your child, and felt the League Tables of that school proved it was the best in the area, therefore, you moved there, in order to be able to get Daisy into the school, as in, it was a specific move to go to a specific school, not a move based around job, economics or geography, but purely around that particular school. Unless I've got that wrong.

Many parents do that. There are children who live in Sidmouth who can't go to school in Sidmouth, because children from Exmouth have been able to find a place there, so desperate are some parents to get their kids to a smaller school..and Exmouth was (so I've been told, but my 'secretary' Dave, will check the facts for me in a moment)...yes, Exmouth was the biggest secondary school in Europe, making it into the Guinness Book of Records, for that reason...

Mind you, that was 10 years back, so the goalposts may have changed...

It was in Exmouth one day, whilst walking on the beach with our dogs that we got talking to a young boy from that school. I'd thrown the ball for Gruffy, one of our dogs, and she'd picked it up and taken it to him and his mates, who then started playing with her...

The young lad had his arm all wrapped in crepe bandages, so I asked him what he'd done, was it serious etc...and he told me (some may recall this story)...he told me that a fellow pupil at school had poured Lynx Aftershave over his hand and arm, then had thrown a match at him...and WHOOSH!

I was shocked..but not surprised.

Why?

Because EXACTLY the same thing had happened to another young lad, a visitor from Germany..to Tavistock College...and one of the somewhat disturbed kids on the ccach had got his bottle of Lynx out of his bag, thrown some on this poor German lad and done exactly the same thing, with a match...

It was the bus my daughter used to go to school on, from Horrabridge, each day...and I'd merrily wave her goodbye, from my bedroom window, which overlooked the road the bus turned up into...

I had no idea what she was enduring on that bus, nor witnessing...

I ended up getting that boy banned from the bus for the things he was doing to Nonny...but the ban only lasted 2 weeks...and he was back...

I fully understand that he was having a rough time at home, no father around, away in the Marines etc....but no child, or adult either, gets to hurt my child or anyone else's and not be brought to their senses over it.

So yes, 'Daisybell' is very lucky with her school, and with her school chums. I do hope that after reading some of these stories she realises exactly HOW lucky she is, because there are many such stories, many such children.....in a system that has ceased to care.

Dave, the teachers themselves said that children are now showing many signs of mental disorder...at their Torquay Conference last year.....

Would you, as a teacher yourself, care to comment on this fact?

Would you care to comment that the teachers said they want less homework given out, less pressure on the children over exams, less control....?

Be my guest, you're a teacher, give me a comment on what your own fellow teachers are saying....

Tell me why my Education Welfare Officer had long conversations with me about how all the excellent teachers are leaving because they cannot stomach what's happening...

Phone up a lady called Sue, in Torquay Library, PM me and I'll give you her surname....and listen to her tell you why SHE left teaching, Dave...She will tell you that she left because of 'The System' and because of how many of her fellow pupils talked to and treated the children entrusted into their care each day.   

She now teaches children who have learning difficulties, in Torquay Library, Dave..teaching them computer skills...that's why I rang her, to see what courses she was doing, for my son.

She has a young lad in a wheelchair too. She told me that she never gives herself 'a pat on the back' normally, but this little lad was something special. He came to her in his wheelchair. No-one knew why he couldn't walk. He wouldn't talk either. All he wanted to do was read Thomas The Tank Engine books, over and over. He was 14 years old.

So, she took Thomas out into the computer, and she spent time with this lad, showing him caring and patience and love....

Now he's going graphic design. He's out of his wheelchair, walking and talking.....and he has a life!

I told her she was bloody marvellous!

She also is severely worried about what this Government is trying to do with Home Education, making it more and more controlled, more and more difficult to do. Her argument is that it's actually about money, because the more children who are home educated, the more EWO's they need...and the more children who are expelled, the more 'free education' they have to give them....and of course, more children ARE being expelled....even for just using a mobile phone....


And....the beat goes on.............

And I hope that Tug is able to have a happy ending to the problems he spoke of earlier in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:39 AM

"..because of how many of her fellow pupils.."

Oops, that should read...of course...'because of her fellow teachers'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:53 AM

"My mum works, and she is my best friend. She has made loads of sacrifices for me. We moved house so I could go to the school where I am now."

I'm just kinda puzzled as to what was wrong with the local school in your previous area....

Did it have problems?

It's just that people here keep telling me that there are no problems and everything's absolutely hunkydory 'out there' so I'd love to know about the local school you moved away from, that's all.

Hey, I moved too for that very reason...one of the reasons I ended up in Sidmouth, along with the International Folk Festival...sadly though, Sidmouth College was little different from Tavistock.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:01 AM

lizzie, i find your response to the anonimity of daisy and her mum outragous and frankly worrying.
why do you have the right to out them, when they do not wish to be identified?

it should NOT matter who they are or where they are.

what does matter is their experiance with schooling.


i think parental interest in eduacation make a huge difference, mine couldn't be bothered once i could read and write, didn't take any notice of the activities i enjoyed and so i lost interest in school.

it sounds like daisy's mum has found exactly the right balance between taking an interest and letting her have her own life and opinions.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:20 AM

I don't understand why a grown woman would be so resentful of a child whose only crime seems to be that she is happy and successful. Daisybell and Mom - I too salute your patience and humor. Congratulations to both of you for a job well done.

More nonsense from Lizzie:

"Tell you what Mary, if I was sitting here telling them that my daughter was at a grammar/private school all Socialist Hell would break loose over me, but....strangely, not one of them has even mentioned this amazing fact."

"Not sure why parents go for single sex schools anymore....to be honest, as it's not a single sex world out there...and Dave, in all honesty, hypocrisy aside...if *I* had sent my kids to single sex schools, you...and all who sail in you, would be slagging me off for choosing some kind of 'selective' education..."

No Lizzie - nobody cares what you do. This isn't all about you and your battle with the world.
For someone who is always whining about apologies due her, you are very slow to offer one to Daisybell or even to stop using quotation marks though you have been asked several times.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:25 AM

It strikes me as very revealing that Lizzie's way of dealing with someone who enjoys and flourishes at *one* school is to try and dig up stuff about what went wrong at *another* school. She is on an anti-school crusade & like all crusaders she tends towards a selective interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM

I'll have one more try to get the thread back on track. Home Schooling is not for everyone. Neither is mainstream schooling. As the proportion of people who are home schooled is far less than those in mainstream education, the number of people who are adversely affected by home education is significantly less than those who are adversely affected by mainsteam schools. Please not that I specificaly quote PROPROTIONS here. I am not saying that the percentage of children who do not fit in to mainstream is higher than those who loose out by being eductated at home. I do not know what the figures are but I would suspect that someone out there will tell us. Whether we can rely on any figures quoted, unless backed up by genuine evidence, is entirely up to yourselves.

One bit of anecdotal experience. At school I was 'blessed with the gift of Asthma'. Yes, I am using that phrase ironicaly. It meant I was crap at sports and never picked for teams. Until that is I discovered I could do fast sprints with lots of rest between down the right wing of the Rugby League pitch. I played for the school team betwen the ages of 13 and 15. We won the interschools championship and regional finals. Had I have been taken out of sdchool, a distinct possibility at one time, I don't think I would ever have experienced the thrill of winning a competetion. Just me. Just anectdotal.

Cheers

DeG

BTW - FolkieDave. Your analysis of why I am not supporting someone else was spot on:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM

t's just that people here keep telling me that there are no problems and everything's absolutely hunkydory 'out there' so I'd love to know about the local school you moved away from, that's all.

No Lizzie, lots of people have said just the opposite and speaking personally I can identify lots of things that are wrong with the current education system, I would imagine from the perspective of the insider probably better than you.

But schools and colleges are mostly full of young hard-working people who want to do well. And they are mostly full of hard-working teachers who want them to do well.

One thing I have learnt about young people though Lizzie, they don't always tell adults the truth. Are you sure Lynx burns like he said? I can't be bothered to look. I know neither of the after shaves I have, carry any warnings about flammability though they are not Lynx. Deodorants do carry warnings but that is not because of the contents -it is because of the gas in the container. I think it might be quite hard to burn someone as you said - but I really have no idea.

But maybe you are correct, maybe it is flammable. After all in loads of wild unsubstantiated statements the statistics would indicate that you may be correct occasionally.

I am delighted that the young man in the wheelchair got the teaching he needed. But it doesn't make the case for someone to home educate. In fact since the person who taught him was an ex-teacher it seems to me it makes just the opposite case. But don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Incidentally - I no longer teach I am retired - it's how I can spend time researching and writing on the internet. Fortunately I don't have a 15 year old son to educate. That would take up all of my time even were I a qualified teacher.

But I suppose you can always pass him onto someone else, the builder for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:38 AM

She is on an anti-school crusade & like all crusaders she tends towards a selective interpretation.

The comforting thing is that as a home educator there is no chance of passing this onto her children.

Any more than she would pass on her lack of analysis and critical understanding when reading the Daily Mail or something she has read off the internet.

Any more than she would pass on her..................

Well I suppose you get the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:43 AM

I did a search on attacks with Lynx deodorant and came up with one instance in which it failed to light. Nothing else.
A boy of 12 did die of an asthma attack when he overused the product.
Urban legend?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

Sorry Dave. You are right. My final observation: some students thrive with home schooling; some thrive in classroom settings. Both options have a place in our education system.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

I too am greatly exercised as to why Lizzie WILL persist in putting quotes around this young woman's name, when she has been told repeatedly that it is regarded as disagreeable and unacceptable. WHY, Lizzie? What good do you think it does you & your cause to be so persistently, ostentatiously, contrarily, & UNNECESSARILY offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

"Incidentally - I no longer teach I am retired - it's how I can spend time researching and writing on the internet. Fortunately I don't have a 15 year old son to educate. That would take up all of my time even were I a qualified teacher.

But I suppose you can always pass him onto someone else, the builder for example."


The builder lost his friend two hours back, Dave. His other friend found him dead...He went home early.

Who the fuck are you to be so bloody condescending to me? Geez! You give teachers a bad name!

I don't hothouse my son...He's free! That's the WHOLE point of Home Education, that we are NOT tied into the system as you choose to be. My son is a bloody wonderful human being, so you leave him out of this.

Sorry about 'Daisybell'.......but I question many things and I'm afraid that something doesn't add up there. Just my feelings, to which I have an absolute right, as does Dave to his and Mary's to hers.

Home Education is about freedom. It is about NOT being tied down by the opinions of others, and accepting that everyone has a right to their own way of life, which is why I told 'Daisybell' and Dave that I'm fine about their school choices...'Daisybell's Mum' too....We all want what's best for our children.

I'm just interested in why people choose certain schools, choosing to move to get to another one.

I did it because the experieces of my daughter at one school were terrible...and I was wondering whether this was the same reason why 'Daisybell's Mum' also moved. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

home schooling should be monitored as perents could be way out of their depth but not have the inteligence to realize it. leaving the child wanting and needing more than the parent can provide.

it is currently open to abuse by needy or clingy parents, who use it to keep their child under their total control.

there should at least be guidelines as to the levels of basic education that the child should be reaching.

reading, writing and basic maths should be tested.

as a friend said, when we were talking about this the other day.
just imagine if that 12 year old girl who burnt the gollyat this years red white and blue festival was to be taught at home, would and are the things her parents are teaching her acceptable?

home schooling comes with some serious pitfalls.
we get so much of our beliefs from our parents even going to school, just how much power to quash free thinking would they have if at home all day as well?

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

To all the people who have contributed to this thread.

I doubt more correspondence will take us much further. I feel that my own, (many teachers would think) very liberal position has been stated. In case you don't get it Lizzie - I am in favour.

My argument against home education (UK) is that anyone - but anyone - is allowed to do it, with no proof of competence and knowledge.

And in that context Lizzie you are a shining beacon.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

So, Lizzie, on your say so we are expected to believe that everything is hunky-dory in the Cornish household. Fine - I accept that and beleive you unequivocably. Will you show Daisybell and her mother the same consideration?

Look at it this way. We have no more indsider knowledge of your situation than we do of Daisybell's. Who are we to believe? If you have something to say about Daisybell or her mother why do you not come out and say it? Throughout we have seen nothing but calm reasoned statements from Daisybell and her mother, against overwhelming antagonism. I thank them both for that and hope that they stay around. Have we ssen the same calm reasoning from you?

I will, as always, let people make up their own minds.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM

'Daisybell' and 'Daisybell's Mum' have had nothing but politeness from me, Dave.

I've stated that I hope 'Daisybell' joins Mudcat and learns much from the threads, the music ones in particular, as she said she likes folk music.

I've asked 'Daisybell's Mum' to say why she moved specifically for her daughter to go to a particular school. I did a similar thing....so I'm interested. Where is the rudeness in that?

I've also given other examples, yes...true ones...about the things other children have happen to them at school.    There are two sides to everything, you know.

"And in that context Lizzie you are a shining beacon. "

Actually Dave, I am...You wanna know why? Because of my children, that's why. I'm bloody proud of them both and how they've coped with what they had to cope with at school...and how they've risen above it all.

Strangely, a friend of mine, who sent all her 3 children to private school, re-mortgaging her house to do so, was talking to my daughter for ages fairly recently...and at the end of it she said.."If I had my time over again, I'd go for home education, because I could talk to Nonny for hours and hours. She's so interesting. All that money we spent!"

Yup, I am a shining beacon. You may not like that fact, but there ya go....and yes, I did get your meaning....

"home schooling comes with some serious pitfalls.
we get so much of our beliefs from our parents even going to school, just how much power to quash free thinking would they have if at home all day as well?"

Well, if you believe that one, then ALL children should be taken away from the parents at birth and put into institutions until they are old enough to work for the State.

Sorry, jade, but that is way out of order.

So tell me, what about the teachers who choose to indoctrinate their pupils with THEIR own beliefs? And yes, believe you me, it DOES happen.

Open your eyes......

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM

I didn't think Jade was out of order at all.
She spoke very good sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

Check out the "homeschooling" provided by some Christian cults in US if you want to see some of the dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:41 PM

not all children!!!   i do think parents need to understand that having a child is the most exhausting and demanding thing they will ever do.

i may not have kids lizzie but i look around and see can't be bothered parenting. kids running round shops with parents screeching at them. is that the sort of person you want tto teach their kids, they cannot teach them basic manners let alone anything else

of course i am generalising. however you happen to iss the crucial part of that post and i have noticed you have skipped it because attacking me is easier for you.

would YOU want the parents of that 12 year old girl, teaching YOUR kids?

i understand you have had issues with daisybells mum, however it does show you in a rather bad light to be taking that out on her 15 year old daughter.

just so you know jade is not my real name(on my birth certificate) are you going to put 'marks' round my name now too?

it seems that because you happen to know who daisy is, you have the right to take away her freedom of choice for her name....so much for that ideal then lizzie.

sorry everyone, i couldn't help myself.

take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:43 PM

I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all. And there are plenty of schools that are as cloistered as any home schooling situation and that teach the same kind of religious doctrine as some of the more extreme home schooling situations here. So in the US, just focusing on the home schooling situations would not work. The private schools would have to be subject to the same standards as the home schooling households.

I guarantee that ain't never gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

Wrong Carol:
http://www.ed.gov/pubs/RegPrivSchl/index.html

Schools are accredited and can lose their accredidation if they do not meet minimum standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

I have met Daisy's mum very briefly at two Folk Festivals and, although I knew she had a daughter, I have never had the pleasure of meeting her and had no idea of where they lived.

I'm sorry to see that some of Daisy's mum's replies to Lizzie are no longer on the thread; I thought that they were informative and courteous.

Earlier today I received a PM from Daisy's mum requesting me to ring and speak to her daughter who was confused and annoyed that Lizzie appeared to be questioning her authenticity as the author of her posts and to confirm that she really was the independant thinking young woman she claimed to be.

I chatted to Daisy and found her to be an articualte young woman.
We discussed her GCSEs which are structured very differently to the 10 I took a very long ago and I am convinced by the strength of her feelings and frankness that the posts really were 'all her own work'

I hope that this helps to dispel any misunderstanding that Daisy isn't exactly who and what she claims to be here and I hope that she can continue to contribute to other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: paula t
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:14 PM

As a teacher I do not totally disagree with home education , but it should not be seen merely as a "opt out" of a difficult situation.I think that home education can be a hugely beneficial thing for some children. However, I do believe that parents should equip their children with the skills they will need as adults. I think it incredibly unfair for parents to neglect the teaching of science, literacy ,maths etc to their children because of their own political views about life and society in general.As adults these people will wish to choose their own careers and will therefore be in competition with people who have qualifications and recognised skills.
Freedom of choice is restricted if someone does not have qualifications.No matter how unfair or "blinkered" this would seem to be.Parents have the responsibility to take this on board and help their children - whether the concept appeals or not. I have been incredibly frustrated on a number of occasions when trying to help children who have found school hard and have wanted to opt out.This frustration has not been with the child (I remember feeling that way myself on many occasions as a child. It is a very natural reaction to want to run away from difficulties.) My frustration and despair has been with those parents who have explained that their child doesn't need an education because they are "Going into the family business". This has often been accompanied by sentiments such as, "I haven't got any qualifications, but look where I am ".These parents have imposed their own insecurities onto their children.It is incredibly unfair. The child is a different person to the grown up. The child is a "clean slate" not a continuation of the parents bad experiences.It is wrong to limit a child's life chances by imposing a personal grudge on them.

Parents need to remember that their children are not able to make decisions yet about the path their adult life will take and thus what they need to learn.They need to be given the tools and the support to be someone new and the best they can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:42 PM

Thank you to everyone that's been supportive about this, I really only came to put my opinions on the situation out there and I hope they've been useful to some people. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:55 PM

Daisybell, you have been both helpful and interesting.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:02 PM

Indeed you have Daisybell.

Well done!! And if yiu are ever at a folk festival and see a bookseller, it might be me! Please say hello!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:34 PM

The person who posted the link about accreditation is wrong. It varies from state to state. From the link provided up above, the state of Maryland, for instance. Maryland's standards for home schooling environments are stricter than for private schools (although they had no required standards when I home schooled there around 1990)..

"Institutions operated by bona fide church organizations are exempt from the requirement to hold a Certificate of Approval from the Maryland State Board of Education. The head of the bona fide church organization must, however, submit to the State Department of Education acceptable evidence of the bona fide church organization legal authority status and certification of the legal authority?s assumption of responsibility for governing and operating the nonpublic school."

(Legal authority status is doesn't have anything to do with accreditation.)


And let's see... oh, I don't know... Alabama...

"Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.

"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.

Licensing by the Alabama Department of Education is required annually prior to the operation of a private school. Ala. Code § 16-46-5. However, most private elementary and secondary schools would qualify for exemptions, as schools operated by "a parochial, denominational, or religious organization, and/or as a ministry of a local church or group of churches on a nonprofit basis" or schools operated by "a community, educational organization, or group of parents, organized as a nonprofit educational corporation with the expectation of establishing a more favorable environment for those in attendance." Ala. Code § 16-46-3. Exempted private schools may voluntarily request to be licensed without surety. Ala. Code § 16-46-3(d). Licensing is based on specific criteria, such as, the quality and content of curriculum, adequate space, equipment, instructional materials and personnel, recordkeeping, and financial stability. Ala. Code § 16-46-5(i)(1)-(7). Ala. Admin. Code r. 290-030-050.

By definition, a private school, but not a church school, holds a certificate issued by the state superintendent of education showing that the school conforms to the following requirements: (1) instruction is given by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education; (2) instruction is given in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools; (3) the English language is used in giving instruction; 4) a register of attendance is kept indicating every absence of each child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1)."


Arkansas doesn't address the subject of accreditation at all. And its requirements for home schools are stricter than for private schools.


In some of the states in that link accreditation is not required for religious schools, and in some cases not for other kinds of private schools, either, but they do have curriculum requirements. Many don't mention anything about mandatory testing.

I haven't looked at all of them, but that's a sampling of schools that don't require accreditation (or have any other academically related requirements of private schools and/or religious schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM

"I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all."

I repeat "Wrong Carol'. Here is Alabama's listing. They are definitely subject to monitoring and government interference. Arkansas has government requirements for everything from scoliosis testing to flags in private schools. Even Alaska requires mandatory testing of certain grades in private schools.

It is important to read everything and not pick and choose what fits your statement.





Alabama
Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.

"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.

Licensing by the Alabama Department of Education is required annually prior to the operation of a private school. Ala. Code § 16-46-5. However, most private elementary and secondary schools would qualify for exemptions, as schools operated by "a parochial, denominational, or religious organization, and/or as a ministry of a local church or group of churches on a nonprofit basis" or schools operated by "a community, educational organization, or group of parents, organized as a nonprofit educational corporation with the expectation of establishing a more favorable environment for those in attendance." Ala. Code § 16-46-3. Exempted private schools may voluntarily request to be licensed without surety. Ala. Code § 16-46-3(d). Licensing is based on specific criteria, such as, the quality and content of curriculum, adequate space, equipment, instructional materials and personnel, recordkeeping, and financial stability. Ala. Code § 16-46-5(i)(1)-(7). Ala. Admin. Code r. 290-030-050.

By definition, a private school, but not a church school, holds a certificate issued by the state superintendent of education showing that the school conforms to the following requirements: (1) instruction is given by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education; (2) instruction is given in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools; (3) the English language is used in giving instruction; 4) a register of attendance is kept indicating every absence of each child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Recordkeeping/Reports: The principal teacher of private and church schools must keep an attendance register showing the enrollment of the school and every absence of each enrolled child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-8. The registry is admissible as evidence in compulsory attendance hearings. Ala. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-23.

Private schools, i.e. a profit or nonprofit entity as opposed to publicly owned or operated schools, which cease operations shall place student academic attendance and financial aid records in the following repository: (1) if merged, consolidated, or change of ownership, in the continuing school; (2) if part of a system, organization, franchise, or church ministry, in the administrative office; (3) if without system support, with the local superintendent of the public county or city. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-46-3(e).

At the end of the fifth day from the opening of the public school, the principal teacher of each private school, but not church school, must report to the local superintendent the names and addresses of all children age 7-16 enrolled; and thereafter, at least weekly the names of students absent without excuse. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-7.

At church schools, enrollment and attendance must be reported to the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided by the superintendent. The administrator of the church school countersigns the enrollment form. If a child leaves the church school, the church school will notify the local public school superintendent, by prior consent of the parent or guardian. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Length of School Year/Day: Under the compulsory attendance law, children attending private schools, but not church schools, are required to attend "the entire length of the school term." Ala. Code § 16-28-3.

Instruction in English: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to use the English language in giving instruction. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Teacher Certification: Instruction at private schools, but not church schools, must be provided by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education. Ala. Code § 16-28-1 (1)a, (2).

Curriculum: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to offer instruction in "the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools." Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Private schools, but not church schools, must provide a physical education program which conforms to the program outlined by the Alabama Department of Education. Ala. Code § 16-40-1.

Health: A certificate of immunization or testing (as designated by the state health officer) is required prior to admittance to a private school. Ala. Code § 16-30-4.

No teacher or school administrator employed by a nonpublic school is excluded from participating in in-service teacher education institutes or curriculum development programs for drug abuse prevention provided under Chapter 41, Drug Abuse Education. Ala. Code § 16-41-5.

Safety: Alabama requires all private schools to conduct monthly fire drills and to have all doors and exits open out, and that all such doors and exits be unlocked during school hours. Ala. Code § 36-19-10.

Private school employers must check the sex crime records of job applicants or volunteers for positions having supervisory or disciplinary power over minors under 18 years of age. The Department of Public Safety will furnish the information to the requesting employer and may charge the employer a fee for the actual cost. Ala. Code § 26-20-1.

Private schools must fully meet the building code requirements unless the building was used for that purpose prior to the effective date of the code. Ala. Code § 41-9-163(c).

An additional penalty of 5 years incarceration, with no provision for probation, is imposed for the unlawful sale of a controlled substance on the campus of a private school or within a three-mile radius of the campus. Ala. Code § 13a-12-250.,

Transportation: A license tax or registration fee of $13.00 is imposed on motor buses owned by a church or a private school that are used only for the purposes of the institution. Ala. Code § 40-12-246 (d).

Home Schooling: Every child between the ages of 7 and 16 are required to attend a public school, private school, church school, or be instructed by a private tutor certified by the state of Alabama for the entire length of the school term in every scholastic subject. Parents who want to have their child instructed at home must either do so through a certified tutor or must qualify as a church school. Church schools offer instruction in grades K-12 or any combination thereof; are operated as a ministry of a local church or group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis; and do not receive any federal or state funding. Ala. Code §§ 16-28-1; 16-28-3. The enrollment and attendance of a child in a church school must be filed with the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Public Aid for Private Schools/Private School Students: No money raised for the support of the public schools can be appropriated to or used for the support of any sectarian or denomination school. Alabama Constitution, Article 14, Section 263.

The Alabama state legislature is prohibited from taxing school property, real or personal. Alabama Constitution, Article 4, Section 91.

No teacher or school administrator employed by a nonpublic school is excluded from participating in in-service teacher education institutes or curriculum development programs for drug abuse prevention provided under Chapter 41, Drug Abuse Education. Ala. Code §16-41-5.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Read it again. Church schools are exempted. That's why I bolded the part that says that church schools are exempted in my last post.

So the above poster is the one who is WRONG.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

Here it is, yet once again...

"Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.

"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.

Licensing by the Alabama Department of Education is required annually prior to the operation of a private school. Ala. Code § 16-46-5. However, most private elementary and secondary schools would qualify for EXEMPTIONS, as schools operated by "a parochial, denominational, or religious organization, and/or as a ministry of a local church or group of churches on a nonprofit basis" or schools operated by "a community, educational organization, or group of parents, organized as a nonprofit educational corporation with the expectation of establishing a more favorable environment for those in attendance." Ala. Code § 16-46-3. Exempted private schools may voluntarily request to be licensed without surety. Ala. Code § 16-46-3(d). Licensing is based on specific criteria, such as, the quality and content of curriculum, adequate space, equipment, instructional materials and personnel, recordkeeping, and financial stability. Ala. Code § 16-46-5(i)(1)-(7). Ala. Admin. Code r. 290-030-050.

By definition, a private school, but not a church school, holds a certificate issued by the state superintendent of education showing that the school conforms to the following requirements: (1) instruction is given by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education; (2) instruction is given in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools; (3) the English language is used in giving instruction; 4) a register of attendance is kept indicating every absence of each child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1)."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

Read it all. Neither private nor church schools or for that matter home schools are free to do as they please in Alabama.
You state:
"I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all."

Maybe you have the US confused with Canada.

There are government requirements in Alabama for church schools:


Recordkeeping/Reports: The principal teacher of private and church schools must keep an attendance register showing the enrollment of the school and every absence of each enrolled child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-8. The registry is admissible as evidence in compulsory attendance hearings. Ala. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-23.

At church schools, enrollment and attendance must be reported to the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided by the superintendent. The administrator of the church school countersigns the enrollment form. If a child leaves the church school, the church school will notify the local public school superintendent, by prior consent of the parent or guardian. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Transportation: A license tax or registration fee of $13.00 is imposed on motor buses owned by a church or a private school that are used only for the purposes of the institution. Ala. Code § 40-12-246 (d).

Home Schooling is also regulated:
Home Schooling: Every child between the ages of 7 and 16 are required to attend a public school, private school, church school, or be instructed by a private tutor certified by the state of Alabama for the entire length of the school term in every scholastic subject. Parents who want to have their child instructed at home must either do so through a certified tutor or must qualify as a church school. Church schools offer instruction in grades K-12 or any combination thereof; are operated as a ministry of a local church or group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis; and do not receive any federal or state funding. Ala. Code §§ 16-28-1; 16-28-3. The enrollment and attendance of a child in a church school must be filed with the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

In Alabama, the parents of children in church schools have to report their child's attendance in a church school. The school does not have to report it. The school only countersigns the form. The school has to obey fire codes and things like that. They are not subject to accreditation, their curricula don't have to be approved, the teachers don't have to hold certificates from the state board of education, and there is no mandatory length of school year. The church schools don't have any academically related requirements.

At the end of the fifth day from the opening of the public school, the principal teacher of each private school, but not church school, must report to the local superintendent the names and addresses of all children age 7-16 enrolled; and thereafter, at least weekly the names of students absent without excuse. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-7.

At church schools, enrollment and attendance must be reported to the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided by the superintendent. The administrator of the church school countersigns the enrollment form. If a child leaves the church school, the church school will notify the local public school superintendent, by prior consent of the parent or guardian. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Length of School Year/Day: Under the compulsory attendance law, children attending private schools, but not church schools, are required to attend "the entire length of the school term." Ala. Code § 16-28-3.

Instruction in English: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to use the English language in giving instruction. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Teacher Certification: Instruction at private schools, but not church schools, must be provided by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education. Ala. Code § 16-28-1 (1)a, (2).

Curriculum: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to offer instruction in "the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools." Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Private schools, but not church schools, must provide a physical education program which conforms to the program outlined by the Alabama Department of Education. Ala. Code § 16-40-1.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:18 PM

I was wrong in thinking that what I said applied to all of the US. The above poster was WRONG in thinking it applied to none of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM

(the above poster who is not me)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:20 PM

And as I said (and I was right), the standards applied to home schoolers in Alabama are stricter than they are for church schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:22 PM

"I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all."

This is what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

Please read my 05 Oct 09 - 04:18 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:25 PM

"The above poster was WRONG in thinking it applied to none of it."

Really? You have not found one stste that has no government requirement for non-public schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:32 PM

Ah, I see now where the nit picking is taking place. Ok, I will retract what I said about there not being any government interference in the schools I mentioned.

However the statement that Schools are accredited and can lose their accredidation if they do not meet minimum standards is wrong. SOME schools are accredited and can lose their accreditation if they do not meet minimum standards. Other schools do not have to be accredited at all.

So my actual point, which the nit picker is studiously ignoring, still stands. If one applies the standard that was being advocated, to require all home schooling environments to be accredited and to be required to meed certain academic standards is applied to only home schooling situations, that will NOT correct the problem that was articulated as the reason for wanting these standards unless they are also applied to ALL private schools, including church schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

It's really not about the issues for the poster who is spending so much time haranguing people in this thread. It's all about throwing their weight around and trying to control what other people can and can't say in the thread. Some people just keep squealing until others just walk away shaking their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:52 PM

Ah Carol - the old fall back position when your half truths are outed.

Interestingly enough Texas has no requirements for home schooling or for attendance reports. They do have health and safety requirements though.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:56 PM

At least I'm capable of admitting when I'm wrong, unlike the nit picking haranguer.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:59 PM

But still not walking away shaking your head I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:03 PM

LOL

*shakes head and walks away*

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:08 AM

Thanks for the 'clarification' of the situation regards accredation of US schools ladies.. It read like a comedy script! Anyhoo..

I don't know whether there are ANY exemptions among UK schools for testing of standards? Are there things faith schools get away with that regular schools don't? No idea, my assumption is that they must meet all the usual academic requirements as any secular school.

Amongst lesser issues like needy parents (yes they exist too) being too dependent on their children. Jeddy commented on the possible dangers of extremists like neo-Nazi's being in a position to utterly brainwash their kids through keeping them out of school, and thus preventing them access to any other ideas which might undermine their complete indoctrination.

LC thought J was being "out of order", so I just threw up the "home-schooling" (which appears to amount to little more than religious brainwashing) in some extreme Christian groups in US, as an example of equally dodgy but quite real potential pit-falls of home education v's traditional schooling.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:35 AM

In the UK the famous Summerhill school, founded by AS Neill managed to fight of Ofsted in the courts precisely on this issue.
   Steiner schools also have their own ways of doing things, and are working with the government to see if the systems can co-exist in the mainstream ( as they do in germany)with the setting up of a Steiner-Waldorf academy in Herefordshire.
   There are still many free schools as well, notably the small school at Hartland, thye Park school at Dartington, and Sands school at newton Abbot.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:38 AM

What happens when children from such schools err want to enter careers that require degrees? Don't they have any standard examinations?