BS: Palestinian 'facts'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:25 PM

Keriste. And folks wonder why there is no peace in the Middle East. Looked at this thread lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 08 - 01:51 PM

Yer right Peace - SSDD!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:06 PM

Gush Shalom is a human rights organization. There seems to be a bit of a double standard by people who attack sources that advocate on behalf of human rights for Palestinian as being "biased", while getting their information from sources that have been proven to not only be biased, but also lying.

Attacking the credibility of a source is an ad homenem argument. It's not a legitimate argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:54 PM

"Attacking the credibility of a source is an ad homenem (sic)argument. It's not a legitimate argument."

What arrant nonsense! Of course attacking the credibility of a source is a legitimate means of argument. Suppose a source was giving erroneous information on a regular basis, it is perfectly alright to point that out in rebuttal that their credibility is lacking.

Should we not always consider the point of view of person or group providing information? Whether information comes from The Wall Street Journal, The New York times, the White House Press Secretary, the DNC one needs to be aware of their biases and their point of view. So, too, with Palestinian spokes people or Israelis. Also, are they speaking for an organization, or expressing a private opinion (opinions, as someone pointed out are not facts? Are they speaking from first hand knowledge, or from hearsay? Do the deeds of the source match its pronouncements? All of those are fair argumentation.

The most egregious form of ad hominem attack I have seen at Mudcat was the discussion concerning Ann Coulter's comments on the Donny Deutsch show. I venture to guess that ninety percent of the anti-Coulter arguments were in effect "she's ugly, "she's a skinny bitch' and similar; precious few posts actually addressed the comments she made, or tried to rebut them. Those, my dear, were truly ad hominem arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 02:59 PM

Re 'attacking the source of an argument': When Dick Cheney is the source . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:07 PM

About 70%of families in Gaza receive water once every 5 days and 30% only have access to water every 7 days according to Rami Abdu a spokesman for The Popular Committee For Countering The Siege of The Gaza Strip.

In addition, much of the water supply is unsafe to drink because of the water and sewage spare parts and maintenance equipment has been barred from Gaza along with the 150000 litres of diesel needed each week to keep the water network operational.

The drinking water is unsafe because the network itself has been damaged by the actions of the Israeli military which has been tearing up roads and fields and the basic infrastructure of the Gaza.

A million people of all ages with all kinds of health needs are one year into a brutal blockade and are surrounded by huge floods of raw sewage .The infrastructure of Gaza is being demolished or destroyed .

It seems like biological warfare is being waged alongside the conventional military and economic blockade of Gaza.Archbishop Tutu of South Africa,that champion of the oppressed, was so right in calling the blockade of Gaza "an abomination".
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 03:16 PM

If an argument is flawed, one can easily discredit the argument. It is not necessary to attack the credibility of the source. If the only counter-argument that can be made is to try to discredit the source, there really is no legitimate counter-argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:53 PM

Carole says: "Gush Shalom is a human rights organization". Who's human rights -Go look at their site! They are a Palestinian rights organization only - bogus

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Peace
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:03 PM

The source dictates the parameters of the argument. In politics, in economics, in philosophy, in life. I'm with Arnie on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:29 PM

Arnie, are you suggesting Palestinians aren't human?

btw
Gush Shalom (Hebrew: âåù ùìåí, "the Peace Bloc") is a peace activist group which sees itself as the hardcore of Israeli peace movement. Gush Shalom is an extra-parliamentary organization, independent of any party or other political grouping. Some of its activists do belong to political parties, but the Gush is not aligned to any particular party

The Gush was founded by former journalist Uri Avnery in 1993 because he was disappointed by other Israeli peace movements such as Peace Now
The movement supports soldiers' refusal to serve in the West Bank or Gaza strip and a pragmatic implementation of Palestinian right of return.

In addition

Gush Shalom received the Right Livelihood Award in 2001 = is an award that is presented annually, usually on December 9, to honour those "working on practical and exemplary solutions to the most urgent challenges facing the world today".

The prize is sometimes called the Alternative Nobel Prize

This information is from Wikipedia not usually associated with a Palestinian bias

Well I'm NOT with Arnie who seems to think he can throw words like 'bogus' around and discredit an Isreali peace movement

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:52 PM

Aw GUEST,Hugo your post of 31 May 08 - 03:07 PM really got to me. It really made me realise exactly what the realities of the situation out there in middle-east are. I feel that I must quote you verbatum to impart what the situation is as YOU and YOU alone have brought it to our attention:

Now just before we start this little exercise let us just have it firmly fixed in our minds who it was the "Palestinians" voted for to look after their interests - please note the "Palastinians" are not Hamas - they actually happen to be normal everyday people like you and me.

Now let's get on to Guest Hugo's post, because it is very important:

"About 70%of families in Gaza receive water once every 5 days and 30% only have access to water every 7 days according to Rami Abdu a spokesman for The Popular Committee For Countering The Siege of The Gaza Strip."

Guest Hugo did Hamas broadcast that this would probably be result of people voting for them and their confrontational policies at the time of the election? Or did they stick to that old fairy tale that once we have annihilated the Jews everything that they owned will be yours?

Guest Hugo - Lesson on reality - once you stand for election you, repeat YOU, are responsible for delivering things and looking after people who voted for you - they have not voted for you to fall in with your "never-in-one-thousand-year-agenda"

The fuckin' Palastinians are short of fuckin' water exactly what are their elected representatives doing about getting them water - BIG FUCKING HINT Guest David firing missiles into Israel aint going to help them - HAVE YOU GOT THAT - Hamas and Hezbollah as such fuckin' haven't!!!

"In addition, much of the water supply is unsafe to drink because of the water and sewage spare parts and maintenance equipment has been barred from Gaza along with the 150000 litres of diesel needed each week to keep the water network operational."

Hey Guest David, the people you rate as flavour of the month can smuggle rockets into Gaza but they can't make the water system work?? Hey come on pal what exactly are their fuckin' priorities - Not to wish to belabour a point but it obviously isn't the people under their charge is it??

"The drinking water is unsafe because the network itself has been damaged by the actions of the Israeli military which has been tearing up roads and fields and the basic infrastructure of the Gaza."

And Hamas has done exactly what to rectify this situation between their almost continuous rocket attacks on Israel??

"A million people of all ages with all kinds of health needs are one year into a brutal blockade and are surrounded by huge floods of raw sewage. The infrastructure of Gaza is being demolished or destroyed."

How many missiles have Hamas, the elected representatives of the people, smuggled into Gaza?? Come on Guest David hazard a guess. Tell us exactly what good that that has done the people that voted for them? Give yu a nudge in the right direction - Sweet Fuck All

"It seems like biological warfare is being waged alongside the conventional military and economic blockade of Gaza." - Would that that were so Guest Hugo - It would at least put the poor bastards out of their misery a damn sight quicker than their pro-Arab Hamas sponsors have tormented them with over the last 60 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:08 PM

'big boys rules - live with it.'

says it all really

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:22 PM

"Arnie, are you suggesting Palestinians aren't human?"
NO not at all! Jeepers! The organization's website appears to be a Palestinian rights organization only- not Human Rights, other's rights. Why don't they state that in an obvious fashion on the homepage instead of deluding everyone that they are a non bias Peace Movement?( actually I guess they have - it's kind of obvious ). If it was for Human Rights - there would be some amount of sympathy somewhere for Israeli citizen concerns as well. Do you find that on their homepage - pretty difficult isn't it? Isn't it bogus when you are in favor of human rights for primarily one group of people when you declare yourself a world peace movement? They may want Peace - but they appear biased.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:41 PM

Arnie I took your 'advice' and looked at the homepage of Gush shalom

There I found such articles as -

Ceasefire NOW! - joint Israeli-Palestinian call

'The escalation in and around the Gaza Strip is causing terrible suffering to people - to men, women, elderly and children, Palestinian as well as Israeli civilians

Yet the individuals caught in the fighting are all suffering - on both sides of the fighting, among both peoples. The pain of living in daily fear, of being wounded and mutilated for life, of grieving for the loss of loved ones, is the same pain - whether one's country be oppressed or oppressor, occupied or occupier, rich or poor, powerful or powerless.

The attacks on both sides of the border feed on each other and intensify each other. Palestinians in Gaza, rightly feeling themselves still living under occupation despite the Israeli 'disengagement', seek to resist occupation, but when some use launching of rockets against civilians, they manage only to provide an additional justification for tightening the siege on Gaza and the escalation of Israeli violence'


Now this doesn't seem particularly 'biased' to me it's exactly what I would hope and expect from an Isreali organization committed to attempting to find a just peace for both sides in this conflict.

The organization has also fought for the 'rights' of young Isreali men who are 'concientious objectors'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:44 PM

Hey Emma B, note that for some reason best known to yourself you refuse to answer my question - Now why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Zach
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:56 PM

Congress has now officially passed a bill banning Teribus from posting in the United States. The bill brought before Congress by presidential hopeful Senator Hilary Clinton states that posts by Teribus are a planets distance away from fact or reality.

Teribus, also known as Walter Mitty, has been posting on every thread from politics, work stress, man-problems, depression, menstrual pains and any other military thread for years now. The Senator admittedly confessed to reading Teribus's rumors, adding is this the male equivalent of Monica Lewinsky?


What she found is the basis for the new legislative law. Teibus's posts contained very little truth or fact. These little morsels he chucks in daily are increasing the daily Valium intake of other members significantly.

This reporter consulted the on-staff comment reading expert known as "Kings Own" who informed me that Catters have know this for years, but never spoke up. In fact the first time that Teribus posted, he insulted everyone on that thread !

In closing, the Senators plan of action is to de-crease the amount of posts this modern day Audie Murphy writes on political or military issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:03 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: GUEST,Zach - PM
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:31 PM

Interesting thread, some great points. Teribus, you are both ill-informed and clearly ignorant. You really do write some crap man.

Says it all really!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 31 May 08 - 08:11 PM

Whether or not Gush Shalom can be considered unbiased is totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not the map displayed in their website is accurate. If someone can successfully disproove the existence of the Jewish-only roads bisecting each of the areas that were offered for Palestinian control under the Barak proposal, then we might have something that can be considered a counter-argument. So far, I have not seen anything like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:55 AM

Well Emma B, Guest Zach, Guest David, perhaps you could tell us all exactly what Hamas, as the elected representatives of the Palestinian people, have done for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:30 AM

Helga Baumgarten, a German political scientist and professor at Birzeit University in Jerusalem has stated....

"In the International Crisis Group's 2003 report, the most important American NGOs gave perfect marks to Hamas's work; they couldn't have achieved a better result,"

Baumgarten believes that the success of the party, which emerged from the radical Muslim Brotherhood in 1987, is based on two factors: the highly professional work of the group's welfare agencies and Hamas's oft-cited integrity. "In fact, all studies have concluded that Hamas operates without a trace of corruption," says Baumgarten. "This has enabled it to gain the respect of the population over the years."

"Social commitment is not a means to an end; I would not interpret this merely as exploitation," says Baumgarten. And even if it were, parties the world over operate no differently."

reported in Spiegel online

Please note, I'm not an 'apologist' for Hamas which continues to see itself as the spearhead of Palestinian resistance against the Israeli occupation.

I have stated before I'm not 'pro' anyone just opposed to the injustice and illegality of the collective punishment imposed upon the million and a half men women and children behind the Apartheid Wall.

My arguement is, and remains, that - to quote the International Crisis Group -

"The policy of isolating Hamas and sanctioning Gaza is bankrupt and, by all conceivable measures, has backfired.
Violence is rising, harming both Gazans and Israelis. Economic conditions are ruinous, generating anger and despair.

Economic punishment designed to hurt the rulers has hurt the ruled.

Sanctions and military pressure have strengthened Hamas's hold.

To the extent the movement has lost some popularity, the attempt to enfeeble it by squeezing Gaza arguably is working, but the success is meaningless. Hamas's losses are not Fatah's gains; Gazans blame Hamas for being unable to end the siege but also blame Israel for imposing it, the West for supporting it and Fatah for acquiescing in it.

Military talk empowers Hamas's more militant, armed elements and boosts the movement's standing.

Poverty and hopelessness boost the appeal of jihadi groups, particularly among under-sixteen Gazans –- half the population."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Hamas may operate without corruption, but they don't take kindly to any opposition as witnessed against Fatah with it's coup. While those statements Emmas wrote in the last post seem accurate, the fact is Israel is not willing to budge as long as militants in Gaza fire rockets- and they hold Hamas responsible for not using their power to stop them. If they can crack down on Fatah, obviously they are capable of doing the same with the others.- So leadership in Israel says if Hamas doesn't do anything, then they will, and so the violence goes on and and agreements get done.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM

Whoops- I meant agreements don't get done

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM

I make no claims for the veracity of this report from the American magazine Vanity Fair but it presents a somewhat convincing view of the Gaza 'coup'

The Gaza Bombshell

'After failing to anticipate Hamas's victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.'

by David Rose April 2008
David Rose is a writer and investigative journalist. His work appears in the Observer and Vanity Fair. Among his books are A Climate of Fear (1992) and In the Name of the Law (Vintage, 1996)


'Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America's behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)

But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza'

'Within the Bush administration, the Palestinian policy set off a furious debate. One of its critics is David Wurmser, the avowed neoconservative, who resigned as Vice President Dick Cheney's chief Middle East adviser in July 2007, a month after the Gaza coup.

Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of "engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory." He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. "It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen," Wurmser says.

The botched plan has rendered the dream of Middle East peace more remote than ever, but what really galls neocons such as Wurmser is the hypocrisy it exposed. "There is a stunning disconnect between the president's call for Middle East democracy and this policy," he says. "It directly contradicts it."'

'Dahlan says he warned his friends in the Bush administration that Fatah still wasn't ready for elections in January. Decades of self-preservationist rule by Arafat had turned the party into a symbol of corruption and inefficiency—a perception Hamas found it easy to exploit. Splits within Fatah weakened its position further: in many places, a single Hamas candidate ran against several from Fatah.

"Everyone was against the elections," Dahlan says. Everyone except Bush. "Bush decided, 'I need an election. I want elections in the Palestinian Authority.' Everyone is following him in the American administration, and everyone is nagging Abbas, telling him, 'The president wants elections.' Fine. For what purpose?"

The elections went forward as scheduled. On January 25, Hamas won 56 percent of the seats in the Legislative Council
Few inside the U.S. administration had predicted the result, and there was no contingency plan to deal with it. "I've asked why nobody saw it coming," Condoleezza Rice told reporters. "I don't know anyone who wasn't caught off guard by Hamas's strong showing."

"Everyone blamed everyone else," says an official with the Department of Defense. "We sat there in the Pentagon and said, 'Who the fuck recommended this?' "

Some analysts argued that Hamas had a substantial moderate wing that could be strengthened if America coaxed it into the peace process. Notable Israelis—such as Ephraim Halevy, the former head of the Mossad intelligence agency—shared this view. But if America paused to consider giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt, the moment was "milliseconds long," says a senior State Department official.

"The administration spoke with one voice: 'We have to squeeze these guys.''


This is a long detailed and analytical piece of investigative reporting but definately interesting and rewarding reading for its apparent insight into American Policy and it's role; it certainly does not repudiate Hamas' use of force.

In conclusion....

'It is impossible to say for sure whether the outcome in Gaza would have been any better—for the Palestinian people, for the Israelis, and for America's allies in Fatah—if the Bush administration had pursued a different policy. One thing, however, seems certain: it could not be any worse.'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:52 AM

Interesting article. U.S. administration blundering once again? Perhaps Hamas took a lesson from Bush that time and did it's very own pre-emptive strike against Fatah.
"It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen"

At any rate Fatah gave up or ran for their lives to the West Bank for their lives as they were being or about to be slaughtered.

So today Hamas calls all the shots in Gaza ( in theory )- so far with no peace results, just a request for a ceasefire, which was a disaster previously.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

when you read this stuff you wonder why there is not any peace in the world espiecally the middle east when you can't even get fellow mudcatters to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:48 AM

Arran I disagree to agree

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:12 PM

The New York Times May 30, 2008
'U.S. Withdraws Fulbright Grants to Gaza'

The American State Department has withdrawn all Fulbright grants to Palestinian students in Gaza hoping to pursue advanced degrees at American institutions this fall because Israel has not granted them permission to leave

Some Israeli lawmakers, who held a hearing on the issue of student movement out of Gaza on Wednesday, expressed anger that their government was failing to promote educational and civil development in a future Palestine given the hundreds of students who had been offered grants by the United States and other Western governments.

"This could be interpreted as collective punishment," complained Rabbi Michael Melchior, chairman of the Parliament's education committee, during the hearing. "This policy is not in keeping with international standards or with the moral standards of Jews, who have been subjected to the deprivation of higher education in the past. Even in war, there are rules." Rabbi Melchior is from the Meimad Party, allied with Labor.'


Comment by Daniel Levy (a Senior Fellow and Director of the Prospects for Peace Initiative at The Century Foundation and a Senior Fellow and Director of the Middle East Initiative at the New America Foundation)

'These 7 bright youngsters make up just 0.000005% of the population of Gaza. What about the other 1.4 million Gazans living with collective punishment and under a closure that continues to have a devastating impact on every social, health and economic measure that one can imagine? And what about the 20,000 residents of the Israeli town of Sderot, and the neighboring communities, who are coming under frequent rocket barrage, including occasionally the town of Ashkelon, with its 117,000 residents? Where is American diplomacy?

....The Bush administration may yet get the seven Fulbright scholars out, and that would be great, but don't hold out hopes for the 1.4 million left behind or their Israeli neighbors'

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

Emma B.--I read that article yesterday in, I think, the LA Times. I believe Israel to be wrong in not allowing the women to leave Gaza, unless there is an extenuating circumstance we are not aware of.

I'm looking to see if the sky is opening up, and thunder and lighting are in engulfing the heavens because we agree on something on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 12:56 PM

John, with the exception of Teribus (whose hate fueled invective of 31 May 08 - 06:52 PM I prefer to treat with the contempt it deserves) I suspect there is much more agreement on this thread than would appear obvious.

My aim has been not to 'support' the democratically elected government of Hamas but to remind people that it was, in fact, democratically elected by a people who have very little left to lose and to lift the 'veil of silence' about conditions behind the shameful Apartheid Wall as 'collective puinishment' by the Israeli Government.

In addition I whole heartedly wished to refute the suggestions that drawing attention to the plight of one and a half million men women and children living in these appalling conditions is somehow 'anti semitic' by demonstrating the concern and anger of many Jewish people both in Israel and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

JERUSALEM, June 1 -- Israeli Housing Ministry published a bid on Sunday for the construction of more than 800 apartment units in east Jerusalem.

    Israeli Housing Minister Zeev Boim has announced plans for the building of 763 'settler' housing units in Pisgat Zeev and 121 housing units at Har Homa, an area Palestinians refer to as Jabal Abu Ghneim.

    Both sites are located on lands captured by Israel during the 1967 Six Day War, and were incorporated into the municipal borders of Jerusalem in an act not recognized internationally.

    A spokesman said the new tenders were a part of steps the government was taking to "strengthen Jerusalem"
   
Israel's plan to build new apartments in disputed territory has drawn harsh criticism from the Palestinian side and the international community, including Israel's ally, the United States.

    The U.S. side said such construction is unconducive to peace efforts.

    "You know we, of course, respect the Americans and we always want to work in cooperation with them, but when it comes to Jerusalem it is our decision where to build and when to build," said Israeli spokesman Arieh Mekel.

Doesn't really help does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: bobad
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

The problem there Emma is that by your obsessive exercise in finding and posting opinions that support your position, and by using inflammatory terminology, you demonize Israel when you know full well that the citizens of Gaza are being inhumanely used as pawns by their own elected government and that Israel would immediately stop all actions against Gaza as soon as the rocket attacks stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:40 PM

From Today's Jerusalem Post

Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip accused Islamic Jihad and Fatah militiamen over the weekend of working to thwart Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce between the Palestinians and Israel.

The officials told The Jerusalem Post that Cairo was planning to make one final effort this week to achieve a truce that would also include a prisoner exchange between Hamas and Israel.

"Egypt's efforts to achieve a cease-fire have thus far failed to produce results because of Israel's refusal to reopen the [Gaza] border crossings," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri. "Hamas has done everything to ensure the success of the Egyptian initiative, but Israel is continuing to drag its feet."

Abu Zuhri called on Gazans to prepare to "break the siege," hinting that Hamas planned to breach the border with Egypt for the second time this year.

"All the options are open and we won't allow the siege to continue," he said. "We are determined to end the siege and the world must expect great developments."

Noting the increased cooperation between Islamic Jihad and Fatah in the Gaza Strip, Hamas officials said the alliance was jeopardizing efforts to achieve a cease-fire.

"Some elements in Islamic Jihad and Fatah are trying to escalate the situation so as to embarrass the Hamas government and foil the Egyptian truce initiative," the Hamas officials said, adding that the two groups were behind the latest spate of rocket attacks on Israel. "We have warned them against their actions, but they haven't complied."

According to the officials, militiamen belonging to Islamic Jihad's armed wing, al-Quds Brigades, and the armed wing of Fatah, the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, have been openly challenging Hamas and its security forces in the Gaza Strip.

The officials pointed out that Islamic Jihad last week arrested a number of Palestinians on suspicion of "collaboration" with Israel and was planning to execute them in a public square in the coming days.

After repeated requests by Hamas, over the weekend Islamic Jihad finally handed over two of the alleged collaborators to Hamas's security forces, but kept the rest in custody.

For its part, Islamic Jihad accused Hamas of being behind an attempt to kidnap three of its senior operatives in the southern Gaza Strip last Friday.

The three - Raed Nassar, Iyad Kahlout and Mueen Faresm - were severely beaten by masked gunmen as they emerged from a mosque following Friday prayers in Deir el-Balah.

According to Islamic Jihad officials, the kidnap attempt was organized by members of Hamas's security forces. Following the incident, armed clashes erupted between Hamas and Islamic Jihad supporters across the Gaza Strip, they added. No casualties were reported.

Denying the allegations, Hamas said the clashes erupted as a result of an "internal dispute" in Islamic Jihad.


Unfortunately, All this infighting between Hamas & Fatah and militants is doing the Palestinian cause great harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: pdq
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:39 PM

"The officials pointed out that Islamic Jihad last week arrested a number of Palestinians on suspicion of 'collaboration' with Israel and was planning to execute them in a public square in the coming days."

It seems that "collboration" means trying to get along and make peace. That is a dangerous course of action for most Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 09:23 PM

Some people are saying that Hamas is not doing enough to stop the rocket attacks against Israel, but when Hamas does do something to try to stop the rocket attacks against Israel, the very same people criticize them for infighting and being violent towards their fellow Palestinians. I suspect that there is nothing Hamas could do that would satisfy such people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:29 PM

Carole- Beyond proposing the latest ceasefire, exactly what have they done to actually stop the rocket attacks?. What's wrong with criticism of violent infighting? Is the world supposed to applaud that kind of activity or just ignore it? - Arnie, one such person as you suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:38 PM

From one of the articles that was posted in this thread, it says that members of Islamic Jihad and Fatah militiamen were responsible for sending rockets into Israel. And it also said that Hamas was cracking down on those groups. I'm guessing they were also the ones who sent rockets into Israel during the time when Hamas was engaging in the unilateral cease fire. I'm having some difficulty seeing why people would criticize Hamas for cracking down on these groups if they're responsible for sending rockets into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 11:52 PM

CarolC, I really don't mean to pick on you, but sometimes I think you play dense just for the fun of it. I can't apprehend you really believe some of the statements you make--to wit:

"I'm having some difficulty seeing why people would criticize Hamas for cracking down on these groups [i.e. IJ and Fatah] if they're responsible for sending rockets into Israel."

You know Hamas is not cracking down on [Fatah], as you put it, because of their firing rockets into Israel. They are cracking down on Fatah because of internecine conflict over who is going to control the Palestinian people in Gaza, and they're strong enough to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:12 AM

Hamas said that the two groups they're cracking down on have been trying to thwart Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce between the Palestinians and Israel. If they are cracking down on the two groups for this reason (and I have no reason to believe that they aren't), then I don't see a problem with their cracking down on those two groups.

If sending rockets to Israel jeopardizes Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce, and Hamas is cracking down on those groups for jeopardizing Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce, then it is perfectly accurate to say that Hamas is cracking down on those groups because they're sending rockets into Israel (as well as whatever else they're doing to jeopardize Egypt's efforts to mediate a truce).

I am not allowed to respond to personal comments, so this is all I have to say right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:50 AM

To the zionists out there ...have you no shame?
It is the Israelis who are responsible for the overwhelming carnage and suffering going on in Gaza and the West Bank.
It is the Israelis who are using jet war planes,destroyers,armoured helicopters , tanks and assassination squads to murder or maim and terrorise the Palestinian people.
They have demolished thousands of Palestinian homes in their ongoing attempt to humiliateand terrorise .
And the people they are doing this to are refugees from what is now the state of Israel.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM

"To the zionists out there ...have you no shame?
It is the Israelis who are responsible for the overwhelming carnage and suffering going on in Gaza and the West Bank." - Guest Albert

Well for a start Guest Albert I am not a "Zionist" merely an observer with an interest in history. The question I would ask of you, and those who post here on this subject in the same vein as yourself - Have you no commonsense?

Now please correct me if I am wrong here Guest Albert but isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?

Recorded reaction to the UN Partition Plan were as follows:

"The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation.

Meeting in Cairo in November and December of 1947, the Arab League then adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict."

That being the case, plain and simple, the application of commonsense would lead to the rather obvious observation that if the "Palestinians" had accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947 then not a single person would have died. It then becomes equally obvious as to who has been responsible for the carnage and suffering that has happened in the region for the last 60 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:01 AM

Yes Teribus, We understand you now. What you really mean is that the Palestinians should have lay down, rolled over and accepted their new masters.

You seem to be looking at the situation from an Englishman's point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 AM

Sorry Guest Botox (Yet another one-post Guest Mushroom) what was your take on it? You forgot to answer the very simple question put:

"...isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?"

In actual fact the "Palestinians" are currently fighting and killing people in the region enthusiastically abetted by both Syria and Iran for a "Palestinian" State that is somewhat smaller than what they were offered in 1947.

Now where in the process of that Partition Plan offered in 1947 was anyone required to, "lay down, roll over and accept their new masters" - There would have been two independent states, the "Palestinians" would then surely have been masters of their own destiny.

In short from a "Palestinian" perspective it boils down to 60 years of grief and bloodshed for less than you were offered in the first place - Great leadership, great vision, what an example of good civil governance, direction and forward planning. Surely they deserve an award for the diligence they have shown in looking after the best interests of the people who were mug enough to vote for these cretins.

But then Bo/David/Albert/Zack/Hugo - go and read the respective "Charters" of Hamas and Hezbollah and take in everything stated. Neither are interested in 1947 Partition Plan offers, 1949 Armistice Boundary Agreements, pre-1967 Boundaries, or any of the other agreements struck with Israel - Their clearly stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of its people. That and that alone is the cause of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:42 AM

Comes down to one very simple fact, The Jews have NO RIGHT TO BE THERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:44 AM

Really Guest Botox?? And what precisely is the rationale behind that sweeping statement.

What gives you the right to be wherever you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 AM

The Jewish policy (Please stop referring to that illegal phrase "Israel") of divide-and-conquer, employed to destroy the democratic government of the Palestinian Authority, they claim claim that Hamas is unacceptable as a party in government because it refuses to accept Israel's "right to exist." They have no right to occupy Palestine.

Jews are demanding that Palestinians not only recognize Jews in the normal fashion of interstate relations, but also formally accept the legitimacy of their expulsion from their own land!

They cannot be expected to accept that, just as Mexico does not grant the US the 'right to exist' on half of Mexico's territory, gained by conquest or Britain in lands they stole. I suspect that this demand was contrived to bar the possibility of a political settlement in accord with the international consensus that the US and Jews have rejected for thirty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:28 AM

Just to introduce a touch of reality into your world Guest Botox

Please stop referring to that illegal phrase "Israel" - Recognised as an independent sovereign state with all rights and privileges associated with that status by the United Nations. There is nothing illegal about Israel whatsoever. You might not like it for whatever reason but your wishing it to be illegal does not make it so.

"They have no right to occupy Palestine." - Really? Where is that written Guest? I can quote at least one internationally agreed document that clearly states that they do have the right to settle in Palestine with the boundaries of Palestine being clearly described (Whole of present day Israel, the whole of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank).

Still you refuse to answer the question, I'll ask again:

"...isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?"

Simple Yes, or No would suffice.

You also ducked this one:

"What gives you the right to be wherever you are?"

Did the Jewish population of Hebron have right to live there Guest?

Just to refresh your memory they were "ethnically cleansed", well at least the ones that weren't murdered were, from the town of Hebron in Palestine in 1929 after having lived there quite peacefully for 800 years. You say that they had no right to be there?

"..as Mexico does not grant the US the 'right to exist' on half of Mexico's territory, gained by conquest"

I didn't realise that Mexico was in any sort of dispute with the USA over Texas, New Mexico and California - Or are you trying to tell us that all the illegal aliens crossing the border are in reality Mexico's equivalent of Jihadists infiltrating the US to win freedom for the people of Texas, New Mexico and California, and return those territories to Mexico. If so, I note that they at least are no so keen on "Right of return" aka "Deportation", any explanation for that Guest Botox.

"I suspect that this demand was contrived to bar the possibility of a political settlement in accord with the international consensus that the US and Jews have rejected for thirty years."

Matter of record the only people who have rejected settlements for the last 60 years have been the "Palestinian Arabs" and their backers.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: GUEST,Botox
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:34 AM

Your well of the mark on all points Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:00 AM

Don't think so Guest.

Your list of unanswered questions continues to grow:

1. Isn't the "Palestine" that all the fuss is about now (June 2008) the same "Palestine" that was offered to the "Palestinians" by the UN on 29th November 1947?

2. What gives you the right to be (live) wherever you are?

3. Did the Jewish population of Hebron in 1929 have right to live there? Having been resident in that town for over 800 years? (Or were they not "Palestinian" enough for your taste, Guest Botox)

4. Is Mexico in any sort of dispute with the USA over Texas, New Mexico and California? My research into the matter convince me that they are not - where then am I incorrect in my understanding of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:13 AM

Zach,

"posts by Teribus are a planets distance away from fact or reality"

Care to point out anything that YOU can prove not to be a fact???




As for "this modern day Audie Murphy "

Have you any idea who Audie Murphy was, or what he did?

Talk about ignorance...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian 'facts'
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:15 AM

Yes 600 Up