Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:37 AM

God that was painful!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM

Actually I think I may have found something I might request be taken elsewhere.

An interesting but flawed experiment...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

Sorry Richard, we are on our way to diable your flash player on your PC. You know it makwes sense.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:59 AM

I `ad that Walkabouts Verse in my cab the other day. `e sat in there, quite nonchallant, with `is little book engrossed in something or the other, no doubt dreaming up some poem or whatever.
I said, "`ere Walkabouts, I aint seen you on that Mudcat recently, `specially that one about bad manners, although its gorn adrift and its more like bad attitudes, but I reckon its right up your street."
`e said, " Nah, Jim. If you notice its now up in the eight `undreds. I`ll put my oar in just after nine `undred and ninety nine and collect the Jackpot!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

Didn't you love the way the unaccompanied singer had words on the palm of his hand?

Come on, he was not that bad if you gave him a chance to get going, and his pitch was fairly consistent in places.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:16 PM

If you are not too brilliant at singing, and with the best will in the world, he wasn't, it is probably better to stick to slightly shorter songs.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

I thought he was OK, Richard. Bit ambitious in his choice of material maybe but at least he is practicing:-) I would take some convincing to give him two songs of that length during at the Royal Albet Hall though.

He would be welcome at one singers nights. Of course the big advantage of YouTube is that one can fast forward or stop part way. Not that I did of course...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:33 PM

He's pitched the tune so it goes off the *bottom* of his range, which is an unusual error to make - having a couple of words of every verse in a toneless gravelly mumble is a bit trying. Apart from that I don't think his pitching is that bad - I've heard much worse.

When he started consulting his hand I was wondering how small his writing could possibly be, but it only seemed to be the "To Norrowa!" verse that he had trouble remembering.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM

Actually, Silas, I've found that - being one of the less than brilliant singers - it's shorter notes I need to stick to.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

You peeps are err *joking* about the singer having words on the palm of his hand! It's just a bit of theatre.

I must say, I like this singers collection of 'Child Ballad' postings. In fact I think they're a very handy resource for interested but uneducated parties such as myself.

The discussion posted by 'Medicine Socks' as a video response to this You-Tubey, is a pretty interesting ramble and worth a watch.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:59 PM

>>If someone is incapable, sadly, of playing or singing, then they should not inflict their shortcomings on the rest of us<<

Thats me and like you say, I don't inflict it on others. There are enough out there already.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

I said I would not exclude the unaccompanied singer (and Sir Patrick Spens does cover quite a range and it is a difficult song to deliver).

What about the electric experimentalist in the other link I posted? I cracked and confessed I would include him out!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:28 PM

Very, errrrmmm, interesting. We would let him on. Once. Provided he kept his guitar turned down to a reasonable level. Or maybe turned it up enough so we couldn't hear... No, that's cruel.

You set me on a quest though and I found this version of the same song. The lady has a lovely voice, even if the accent is not quite what we are used to, but I am not at all sure about that square fiddle! She could come along but maybe leave her friend at home:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

As far as I'm concerned he was off the list as soon as he plugged in. I'm a bit of an acoustic bigot - I'm a singer, and I reckon any decent singer can hit the back wall of a fair-sized room with no amplification at all. (The Patrick Spens geezer certainly could.)

I wouldn't mind listening to that guy's stuff, but he's not bringing that amp int' club.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

sorry,
Just got back and have to go out again - in the meantime
Leveller
Would you mind explaining what you believe my "exacting standards" are?
I could have sworn that all I was asking for was that a singer should be able to hold a tune and remember the words - exacting - have we really slipped that far behind???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:27 PM

Musically, I'm always interested in the new (or indeed old), the eclectic and the innovative, but to my ears the 'experimentalist' as you describe him, simply didn't sound interesting enough to capture my imagination or my ears. Worth a listen, but not something that I'd be intrigued enough about to want to experience more of. I think if someone is trying to do something experimental, they really need to be both very good, creatively plugged in to the mains (with or without electrickey) and distinctive in order to engage the listener.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Bill Hudson
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

Good subject...
There are just a few, just a few. When a performers playing do not talk      or try to go out the room, turn your phone off, and respect others.
That being said after about 30 years plying in bars,well anything is possible and if it sounds strange it probably is true.
One gig I remember when at a small club and everyone was having a good night. It was then two airborne guys walked in the door with a girl. After a very short time they started to get very loud. In the middle of a song I stopped dead and said it a very soft quite voice, "Behave your self". The airborne guys looked like a dear in the headlights and cooled down. After while they would get loud and I repeated the same thing above. So I guess you could say they were apart of the act that night.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM

Different people have different ways, Bill. My mate John had ever such a soft voice and when asked, repeatedly, to sing something Irish by drunken man at the bar. He walked over and, ever so gently, whispered...

"F*** off or I will kick the s*** out of you.'

In an off-stage aside type manner.

The pub was filled with a rugby team and supporters who, entrhalled by Johns songs, proceded to give a huge cheer and carry said drunken man out at shoulder height:-D

Eeeeeeh. the kids nowaays are nowt but hooligans...

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:34 PM

Yes I do understand,I am glad I don't remember all the dives over the years...... some funny stories......now.
I had Jack Hardy come down to Va. and that was a long night because this one guy came and in keep saying to Jack,"Can I play your guitar?" He was big and drunk> I had to deal with that guy all night long. The bar did not have a bouncer. I do remember Jack's face when that guy asked him the 1st time.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

>>An interesting but flawed experiment...

As in terrible food beautifully cooked or beautiful food terribly cooked?

>>A man I would not ban

Nor would I but I got a bit bored. I thought the guitarist was good - if sparse

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:24 AM

This thread is turning very weird.

We have moved from the initial poster who was outraged because an inncomer found the residents less than fascinating, and had the temerity to nibble nuts and wonder what he had to do for a booking; to vivisectionists onstage, ballad singers who seem to know a ballad but seem to think delivering it in a dull prosaic manner is forgivable - (not when its Sir Patrick Spens and needs a bit of nerve and sinew behind it!). No I wouldn't chuck him out Richard, but I shouldn't bet on having many of your audience next week if you gave him a three spot.

- and then we have Nick, who is perhaps the most interesting of the lot. Nick deserves a whole thread to himself

His approach is just so on the money as to what is happening in folkmusic these days.

If you ever doubted that folkmusic for the last for two hundred years (and probably before then) has been a smorgasboard rather than a set menu - with artists and song creators dipping in and taking the stories and themes and techniques THEY wanted - consider Nick. Or if that's too much of a jump - think of Steve Tilston who plays a sort of bastard Piedmont picking style straight from the Carolinas and sings Streams of Lovely Nancy - Jim would know where from, the Hammonds or the Copper family or whatever

Nick, the first tune is too short - presumably from a seession that went on much longer. But his second song is all about his fascination with jazz and its role call of anti heroes, dead legends, and the like - and his accompaniments are what....wannabe jazz, shall we say.

Earlier this year I was at Fylde festival and in one of the bar sessions I met the young guitar player from Tim Van Eyken's band. After a while I said to him - the progressions you are playing they are what a jazz player would play. And indeed they were the kind of thing you would normally associate with backing a player like ben Webster, or Stan getz - and here was this young turk of the folk scene blowing everyone away with accompaniments to jigs, reels, hornpipes etc with these really jazzy chords. this guy could really swing!

When my generation of folk guitarplayers (McTell, Carthy, Tilston etc) kicked off, our heroes were guys were people like Big Bill Broonzy and Davy Graham. people who used open strings. the whole open tuning thing is to preserve open strings, the way they ring, the sound envelope, the way the notes decay and die.

Jazz playing is different. Its all about blocking the strings off, power triads, and the way the chord sustains. Its not really music for acoustic guitar.

I think with Nick we are seeing the start of the post folk club era. Its to do with sessions, open mikes, with playing for ceildh bands. Its the end of our era.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:34 AM

wld.
The Streams of Lovely Nancy ,is in The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs.
Jazz sounds very good on an acoustic guitar[imo],there is no earthly reason why Jazz cant be played in open tunings,using open strings.a lead jazz guitarist can still play all his solos in open tuning,a rhythym Jazz guitarist,can play Jazz in DADGAD or any other open tuning,he may be limited keywise,and some progressions may be more difficult, depends on the tuning,after all blues guitarists use open tunings,and there is a strong association between blues and Jazz.
Willie Johnson[shetland guitarist]played Jazz chords behind shetland traditional music using an acoustic guitar,way back in the 1950s.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:30 AM

Yes Django was an acoustic guitarist really. I never really warmed to the electric stuff he did. And blues of course.

What we rae talking about is something quite new though. Young folk music players eschewing the celtic DADGAD /bluegrass boomy bass string sound for the kind of jazz chord progressions that you hear in George Gershwin.

Its a new generation looking at the music very differently from how we did.

Thinking further. I can see I have been unfair to the Patrick Spens singer. However I think he could have done with some of the black arts of showbiz to present his song.

Its a ghost story. A story for winter evenings. Perhaps if he had been sitting somewhere dark and atmospheric with a blazing fire in the background. Perhaps if he had sang it like he was confiding a tale which fascinated him and his family. It helps in my view.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

I think with Nick we are seeing the start of the post folk club era.

It all depends what you mean by 'folk club', doesn't it? I've got two in walking distance. One (the Beech singaround) is attended by 20-30 people, mostly 50+, who take turns to sing (mostly) traditional songs, mostly unaccompanied, & join in on choruses. It's a welcoming group, but the general standard of singing and knowledge is high.

The other (Chorlton FC) pulls in 50-60 people, a lot of whom are under 30, and puts on anything up to 20 acts in an average evening (one song each); there's a rough three-way split between traditional material, new songs and covers; standards of performance cover a very wide range, and there's quite a lot of referring to songsheets and "haven't tried this one in public before".

So people who think 'folk' means anyone can get up and have a bash have got somewhere to go (I go there myself sometimes - it's a good night out). And people who think it means Lord Bateman and Jones's Ale and a bit of Cyril Tawney or Keith Marsden have got somewhere to go (I go *there* every time, unless I'm ill or something). So as far as my local area's concerned, the folk club scene seems to be alive and well. (Pete Ryder, who wrote the Nat Shapiro song, did a set at Chorlton a while back, incidentally; went down a storm. He does a terrific Miss Otis Regrets.)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM

I think you may enjoy this YouTube clip of Pete Ryder, WLD - A Salford lad now resident in Bolton and regular at our club. This one is a Cole Porter number but he is a brilliant songwriter too.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:10 AM

Oh - and forgot to add, never an open tuning or capo in sight with Pete. When I went to see Martin Carthy a couple of years back I gave him one of our festival leaflets. He saw Pete's name and said he remembered Pete from many years back, commenting what a good guitarist he was:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Great minds eh?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

"Would you mind explaining what you believe my "exacting standards" are?"


Jim, it’s a fair question and I don’t think that there’s actually a short answer. As someone who has devoted a huge amount of time and effort to folk music, you want it to be performed to the highest possible standard. Nothing wrong with that but I think, for me, the key word is ‘possible’.

If one (I hesitate to say ‘you’ as it could well get misconstrued) accepts, as I do, that the policy adopted in schools of total inclusivity is the correct one, then, surely, this should also apply to other areas in life, of which music is one. Because folk music is, in essence, a popular performance medium, it applies here especially. I think the phrase â€쳌from each according to his(/her) abilityâ€쳌 is one that I would use.

I believe that there has to be a big distinction here between professional (by which I mean anyone who accepts money for performing) and amateur. The professional is undertaking a contract and has an obligation to provide the service to a standard that is acceptable to those who are paying.

Amateurs, on the other hand are doing it for fun (isn’t fun what it’s all about?) so the application of standards of any sort must be done with great care. So, in short, I would say ‘no’ even the most basic standards of remembering the words and singing in tune cannot be applied universally.

Let me give you just one example of what I mean that I hope will illustrate my point. I go to a folk club which is there mainly for the benefit of people (friends) who like to hear each other perform. We don’t have a charge or book guests. The standard varies from excellent to that which, shall I say, probably falls below what some of the posters here would find acceptable. Nonetheless, everyone gets the same encouragement and applause and, on average, we have 15 to 20 performers every month. The oldest member is a chap called Colin. Colin is 80 and he comes almost every month. To be honest, he can’t sing in tune now, has lost his sense of rhythm and usually forgets his words even when they are written down in front of him. Nevertheless, his enthusiasm is boundless, he has a wonderful sense of humour and we love him â€" the club just wouldn’t be the same without him. Are we to apply a performance standard to Colin? To stop him performing would not only break his heart but would, I think almost all of us would agree, be a sad loss to the club. I think Colin also performs a valuable function: new people who join us and may be a little uncertain of their ability, are encouraged when they see Colin getting a great reception. Our club has been running for years and, usually, there are so many singers we have to restrict it to two songs per person.

Not only is our club a great place to keep traditional material alive, it’s also a great place to hear some new and original material that will probably never reach a wider audience â€" often songs that come directly from the local area. Sure, some performers who aspire to a higher standard have come to the club and never returned and I’ve heard some comments that they don’t think the standard is high enough for them. That’s fine, but I think it’s sad that they feel that way.

I hope I’ve answered your question. Sorry if it’s been rather longwinded but I think it warranted a full explanation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

All this is very strange; the battlefield appeared to be littered with dead windmills carefully erected by those who would persuade us (apparently) that neither skill nor practice is needed to sing folk-songs (or am I guilty of erecting a windmill of my own? – it's a little hard to tell who is saying what among so many people not really saying anything).
I didn't get a reply from the leveller regarding my exacting standards - that's ok; I didn't really expect one.
Perhaps we might do better with this one:

Leveller:
"Jim, I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies."
Are you suggesting that the only things that are worth making an effort for are those for which you are paid?
Or how about:
"Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards. What a sad world that would be!"
How do you work that extraordinary piece of logic out – sorry, you can't really respond to that until you define what my 'exacting standards' are – so maybe we should give that one a bit more time.
For the record; virtually all the activities mentioned require a fair amount of developed skill and preparation – amateur or not – I know – I've attempted to tread the boards myself on several occasion, without much success .   
"It's harking back to the 'folk police' arguments we've had in the past,"
Sorry, don't quite follow this – we're not reverting to back-of-the-bike-sheds name calling are we?
"Where we appear to disagree is on the application of standards to amateur performances."
Are you suggesting that because an activity is 'amateur', no skill or effort is required.

Richard
"But how does it relate to the people who Jim and the Captain would say should not sing or play?"
Who has suggested that anybody "should not sing or play"? I haven't, nor has anybody else as far as I can see. We have merely suggested that before they appear in public they should have done the work necessary to become singers.
"A man I would not ban"
As you are the only one to mention banning anybody – who WOULD you ban?

Snail;
".......as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work."
Fine – and when they have put in that work and mastered the basics, then they should be recognised as singers and given places as a performers.

Sleepy Rosie
So who are the guilty parties and why do they do it?
Good question – as far as I'm concerned the club organisers should be responsible for what goes on in their clubs and be shape their policies accordingly so the music stands more of a chnace of surviving than it has been given so far.
Why do they behave the way they do?
The logic of their argument appears to be based on an extremely patronising belief that newcomers asked to put in the groundwork in order to become singers are quite likely to hoist up their skirts and head for the hills – can't think of another reason; can you?

Nick
"Jim has never defined his benchmark of acceptability"
Well; I have; but in case you missed it tenth time round, here it is again:
A singer should be able to sing – hold a tune, memorise the words, and understand the song enough to communicate that understanding to the listener.
"borderline examples"
Not really into micro-measuring singing abilities – even if I saw the necessity of doing so.
I suggest that anybody involved in singing who can't tell where a would-be singer is consistently singing out of tune or making a hames of the text really should have gone to Specsaver.
Yours in anticipation,
Jim Carroll
PS
Leveller:
Sorry; have just seen your posting - have not got time or energy to read fully and respond - (music calls in town) - but will do son when I get back.
I have to say that your description of a folk club (at a somewhat superficial glance) sounds less like the clubs I know and more like a Freemasons Lodge where the public does not venture, but as I said, a superficial glance.
We all 'want' it to be performed at the highest possible standard - surely; but that is not what is under discusssion; rather, the question here is what is the 'lowest' standard we are prepared to accept from performers at the clubs.
Our music is held to ridicule by those outside our immediate circles (in the UK, that is - not in Ireland any more) - I believe that this is to a great extent due to the fact that it is not held in enough exteem by many of those participating - if we don't take our music seriously, how can we expect anybody else to?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Why don't we do what they do in Golf !?

Every time someone performs at a folk club they are assessed for being able to remember the words without a prompt sheet, for being able to sing in tune, for being able to play without a capo, whether they write their own songs etc and then mark their card and issue them with a 'handicap' - a numerical value that is a universal measure of their ability

The folk clubs can then say - we are a ten and below club or we have a minimum standard of eighteen. They can use this in their advertising so that you know what you are going to get before you go and if your handicap is 25 you don't take your guitar with you if you are going to a club that is 20 or less !?

The existing method of going along to a folk club, deciding whether or not you like it and either going back or not seems very hit or miss in comparison

oh b*gger - I've just refreshed this thread

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:54 PM

Leveller: sorry, didn't want this to spoil my evening.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is now unnecessary and 'too exacting' to expect a singer to be able to sing?
Dictionary definition (unless it's another of those words that has undergone Wikipeadia treatment).
"Amateur - a person who engages in any art, science, study or sporting activity as a pastime rather than a profession". No mention of 'fun' or taking things seriously - sorry.
Rafflesbear:
I'm assuming that your posting wasn't facetious so - here goes.
Thank you for your additions to the growing list of things that people haven't said - I suppose if we get enough of them we might just get round to taking them seriously, as it is, sorry, no cigar. Singing in tune and remembering words seem to me to be a fairly essential ingredient to being a singer - might be expecting too much - but that's me!!!
A lot of people tried your method and didn't go back - hence the steep decline in attendances - the discussion is towards helping to halt that decline and getting our music some respect (and who knows, maybe even a little self-respect), so if you have any suggestions to this end - please make them.
Now, off to see if our local musicians (all amateurs) can actually play - fingers crossed!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:25 PM

I am not going to get drawn into this thread. I initially found it interesting and made a couple of posts myself but have grown to despair of it as the same old arguments get churned over endlessly and the analysis has now reached the dictionary

I have added nothing to the list of things that people haven't said - I have had my own say in my own terms and quoted nobody

I do not fear for the future of the music that has been round longer than any other. On one website alone there are already over 70 significant festivals in the coming year. As regards folk clubs, unless I am mistaken they are independently run by individuals or groups of hardworking enthusiastic intelligent and knowledgable people who put their own time and energies into creating the type of club they want with the performing policies that they who put the work in decide - and bless every one of them

My suggestion for getting 'our' music (you may or may not like what I like) some respect is for each of the protagonists in this sad thread to wipe the slate clean, ignore what has been written to date, and each one to set down independently without reference to others what they would like to see in Folk Clubs

The one obvious thing in this thread is that you are not going to agree and you are not going to persuade each other - it would have happened by now. A list of each of your own personal preferences would be far more useful to a Folk Club organiser trying to get ideas than ploughing through everything that has been written here

Looking at the list of posters to this thread, it started off quite varied but it is now down to the hardcore so far from influencing people you are now down to the number of people you could get round a table. Pardon me if I now leave that table - I'm off to the bar

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

A lot of people tried your method and didn't go back - hence the steep decline in attendances

I don't know about that. I think what's good for the clubs may not be the same as what's good for the music. Earlier on today I wrote about a club that's packing them in, has a huge roster of regular performers, and where it's considered perfectly normal to sing from a cribsheet or a songbook. If anything, I think this is one of the things people like about the club - they like to feel that anyone can have a go. It's certainly doing something right.

The trouble is, letting everyone have a go has become the main business of the club - it's certainly more important than providing a space for good performances of traditional music.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:45 PM

each one to set down independently without reference to others what they would like to see in Folk Clubs

First, I think all folk club rules should take the form of STRONG PREFERENCES. These STRONG PREFERENCES should be expressed informally by club regulars and failing that by the MC or organiser. The MC has the final say. STRONG PREFERENCES are not absolute; the MC has the right to make exceptions to his/her own STRONG PREFERENCES, and to overrule those of the regulars, for any reason that seems good enough at the time.

There should be a STRONG PREFERENCE for

- acoustic music with no amplification
- unaccompanied song as well as accompanied; accompaniment should not be the norm
- traditional repertoires
- singers to use something like their own accent
- joining in on choruses and repeats, but not otherwise
- frequent guests but a majority of singers' nights
- crib sheets not to be used obtrusively
- everyone who wants to sing to get a go (on singers' nights)
- nobody to get much more time than anyone else; this may mean that some performers get more *songs* than anyone else, depending on the song (I can dream - I remember one week I was on and off in the time it took the next guy to tune up...)

There you go - my dream folk club. What about anyone else?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:39 PM

Wow congrats on keeping the thread going and not to much blood in the sawdust.
I was sort of wondering about one of the earlier posts where some one said that it isnt unreasonable to expect a person who gets up to sing may have practiced the songs,got the ability to sing in tune,rythm etc and be able to convey the meaning of the lyric.
Just wanted to ask how you would know they had done all that without hearing them first?
I mean do you risk listening to someone who might not conform tot eh standard?
or wait until someone else tells you that they are acceptable.
I can see your point in the context of keeping your standards generaly decent over the whole evening,then just wondered how you would know.

I also read that folk is ridiculed and to be honest I never realy came across that personaly.
I have heard disparaging remarks and humourous ones too but I think as in all things if we keep a sense of humour and the potential sillyness of what we are doing in public we can get by with a smile.
I dont claim to be a folky performer as such but I do love to hear those of you that are.
Dont you sometimes struggle to keep a straight face when other types of music are in progress,young middle class lads with anguished souls singing the blues or us whinging snog biters banging on about stuff?
Even older gents still livin the rock and rolator lifestyle in their heads.
Sorry I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM

Hi Tim - Long night working on my new NAS drive (1TB Raid 1 - Super geek or what:-) ) So I am off to bed, but checked in before I do.

I think everyone, bar none, has said that they would give someone new a chance. So, unfortunately your question, sensible as it is, does not really arise. We all have to listen to someone and then make up our own minds whether they 'measure up'. Then keep reviewing it to see if they have changed!

Hope this helps.

Suprised you have not seen the general media piss-take of folk music - Where abouts are you based?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:49 PM

>>All this is very strange; the battlefield appeared to be littered with dead windmills carefully erected by those who would persuade us (apparently) that neither skill nor practice is needed to sing folk-songs (or am I guilty of erecting a windmill of my own? – it's a little hard to tell who is saying what among so many people not really saying anything).

Don't think that has been any part of my personal view on this thread but what the hell - it's a thread of huge sweeping statements which was why I tried to give some examples.

>>A singer should be able to sing – hold a tune, memorise the words, and understand the song enough to communicate that understanding to the listener.

I know someone who can definitely sing in tune. He knows the words. He understands the songs he sings. He is a terrible singer. (I can send you an example if you want)

I know you keep repeating it (10 times or whatever) but you're not really being clear. Most of the people I come across can do most of those things most of the time but not all are necessarily good singers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:20 AM

Tim,
Pip just said most of what I would have replied - have a look back at the thread made up largely of people throwing their toys out of the pram because of the BBCs taking the piss - 4 weeks ago I think.
I would only add as somebody involved in research and collecting, try getting The Arts Council interested enough to stump up a grant for publishing something sometime. Here in Ireland Pat and I have recently been awarded a substantial grant in order to index, annotate, archive and prepare for publication our collection of Travellers recordings. Up to the present economic downturn, anybody applying for such a grant was pushing on an open door. We have two world-class traditional music archives here and a growing number of regional ones.
I sat in a session last night and listened to, among others, a flute player and her two teenage children (concertina and flute). I first met the mother about 20 years ago when she was learning the flute - she now has a class of around 30 youngsters and her children are taking classes of around 10 pupils each.
I can turn the television or radio on 7 nights a week and listen to good traditional music and song and hear it discussed seriously, sensibly and with respect. The music here will survive as a respected art for at least another two generations (barring George Bush becoming president again and invading Stoke Poges for the oil).
Ten-fifteen years ago Irish music was being sneered at as diddly-di music - it was largely the domain of the glossy professionals such as Riverdance and The Chieftains. The situation was turned round mainly by some of those involved taking it seriously, expecting our singers to be able to sing and our musicians to be able to play (while having 'fun' at the same time).
Far from indulging in pointless and endless discussion, as an ex-pat (no pun intended) who cut his teeth on British Traditional music, I would like to see the same thing happen in the UK - not beyond the realms of possibility.
Nick;
Singing in tune and rhythm and remembering the words are the first teetering steps and, as far as I'm concerned, the very least we can ask of our singers before they become public ambassadors for our traditional songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:57 AM

'Ten-fifteen years ago Irish music was being sneered at as diddly-di music - it was largely the domain of the glossy professionals such as Riverdance and The Chieftains.'

The Chieftains have been getting serious respectful reviews for the best part of thirty five years I can remember.

We're both getting old Jim - I suspect that fifteen years is something that has jumped out of the timeslip - like fifteen years ago when JFK was president.....or fifteen years ago, around the time of the Suez crisis!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:18 AM

No, I think Jim is right. I vist Kerry quite a lot and around this time a lot of the pubs were playing American Country and Western music in preference to their own, it seems to have gone back to traditional Irish now. (Though Sligo/Mayo/Roscommon seem better served)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM

Re Pips preferences
I would go along with the majority of that myself.
I also would go along with whatever ground rules were in place at any venue I visited (as long as made aware of them politly!)
I know I have been lucky while trying to learn how to sing a song to an audience that listens(well maybe they sleep,but the snoring is politely controlled),Nick and his friends are just one shining example of experienced folkies who give a chump a fair break.
I know there are many others who,whatever they say on here sometimes,
do exactly the same.
SO whatever you post I will love and respect you anyway 'cos you are all lovely.
Dunno what that techy thing was you mentioned Mr Gnomo,but I was an expert for ten mins yesterday when I finaly realised I could just reset explorer to get rid of all the crap I have collected while browsing.
Shame 'cos managed to borrow a truly huge computer hammer for when we return from Hols.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:59 AM

You do not achieve a critical mass of players by telling people to keep on doing it till they get it right - before they can play out. How many people were put off music almost for ever by the school choirmaster (I know I was) or by interminable piano lessons (I escaped that one)? For the same reasons I never and will never read Shakespeare or Dickens or Bronte.

I thought the turnaround for Irish traditional music was rather longer ago - I forget which government - but Comhaltas got things moving with government money. It has been extensively discussed on the Comhaltas threads, the examination threads, the competition threads. But it has come at a cost - look at the narrow-minded prescriptiveness that the Captain recently exposed in that fRoots review he posted. It is also linked to a consiousness of being Irish (and of linkage to the goory days of Ireland as one of the principal centres of learning and art, not to mention tribal warfare) that is there lauded but here in England derided as racist.

It also I think may not be as successful as some would wish. Only last year my then lodger became friendly with a seaman whose family linked to the West Coast of Ireland and he (the seaman) went to a family celebration (I forget, wedding, wake, birthday, whatever) and came back with an edited video saying "This is proper Irish music". This was from somewhere way out on the West coast. Much of it was country and western, much of it was badly done, and the relieving touch came from two sisters singing what sounded to me like traditional Irish songs in Gaelic. They were 10 to 15 minutes relief from an hour and a half of dreck.

It's not all good in Ireland. It's not all bad here when youngsters like Ben Little (that should cheer Trevor up, Sue) are as good as they are, even if they have not really found their roots yet.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Keep that 'puter hammer, Tim! I may want to borrow it:-)

BTW - Noticed how an outbreak of common sense seems to have occured? What on earth is wrong with this place?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Critical mass???

They going to explode then?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 07:38 AM

WMD
The point I was making was that 15 years ago - as far as the media was concerned, Riverdance and The Chieftains (whatever we might think of them) was the only dish on the menu - that is no longer the case.
Richard,
Don't know where your friend was but he wasn't around last night - nor on any of the other three nights we are served good traditional music in this rural backwater.
Things are not perfect by any means, but they are infinitely better now, and improving every day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:48 AM

You let things drift for a couple of days and find there's so much to respond to.

Pip Radish

As Bryan said, there aren't that many really incompetent singers who want to sing.

Indeed (in my experience) there aren't. Jim's question - "Would you turn over a substantial slice of your club evening to a group of non-singers?" seems such an improbable scenario as to be meaningless. I'm not going to spend a lot of time worrying about it. More to the point, we are not going to decide our policy towards ALL floor singers on the remote possibility that a significant number of them are going to be incapable of remembering their words or holding a tune. It doesn't happen.

Snail;
".......as responsible adults, they can be trusted to put in the necessary work."
Fine – and when they have put in that work and mastered the basics, then they should be recognised as singers and given places as a performers.

Jim, how am I supposed to know? You got quite annoyed when you thought I had accused you of demanding auditions but yet again, you are saying that people have to have achieved a certain standard before being allowed to perform in public.

The talk seems to be of organisers putting performers in front of audiences as if they are three separate groups of people. They aren't; they are all the same people. Floor singers are audience members who get up and perform. Last night that could have been just about everybody in the room but, alas, we didn't have time.

Organisers are audience members who get to take the cash on the door, put out the chairs, send out the advertising, do the accounts, arrange the venue, book the guests... We create the environment in which the music can thrive. We are not in a position of authority over the other participants; we are their equal. They have just as much right to decide whether they are ready to perform in public as we do.

Pip, I think you would enjoy the Lewes Arms.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 08:49 AM

In response to Richard Bridge there, about people being put off by the choirmaster and so-on. Yep, I was most definitely turned off of folk music in a big way back as a kiddie in 'music club', with dull flat singing and grotty recorders and bland little dirges...

Still gladly managed to forge an interest in music nevertheless, and (like many of us) have travelled round the houses, from my teens to my thirties through Indie to Rock, Punk, African, Fusion, Classical, Modern Classical, Early English, Arabic and so-on, until eventually I've stumbled back to Folk somehow as an adult.

At least now I'm finally discovering that Folk doesn't have to be anywhere near as dull and flat and deathly as it was condemed to sound all those years ago in 'music club'.

And in fact I'm discovering there's some genuinely progressive and stimulating material out there, just waiting for me to sit up and pay it heed. Which is fantastic. But I imagine there are a lot of my generation that were lost to folk because of their equivalent experiences in 'music clubs' around the country, who will probably forever be scarred, much like those who learned to hate Shakespear or even 'poetry' in school.

Fortunately for me, I had the opposite experience with literature, from my Mother who knew how to infuse fascination and joy into a story. And unlike many of my peers, I learned to love Classics from a relatively early age. Pity about 'music club' though... Because of all kinds of music, in many ways Folk is perhaps in principle the most embracing to the less well formally educated.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Ian Fyvie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 09:44 AM

Saw JOHNNY COLLINS at Lewes Arms FC (Lewes) last night - one of the best unaccompanied singers around.

Unlike Amber's egotistical booking seeker who was bored by everyone bar himself, Johnny last night was joining in with all the floor singers' chorus songs - well known or not. Excellent!

Amber's booking seeker should learn the ethics enjoyed by all at last night's excellent folk night forthwith!

Ian Fyvie

And I've seen all the rude behaviour highlighted by Amber at a bar singaround (since abandoned) a few years ago. What gets me is that some folk singers are actually ruder and more disruptive once they've done their supermarverelous party piece than a drunken punter just straying in!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 10:41 AM

Bryan:
I wrote some time ago on this thread:
"If they could hold a tune and make sense of the song they would be included fully in the proceedings - if they couldn't, they weren't, simple as that.
If the latter was the case one of us would approach whoever it was, sound them out and, if they showed any interest, they would be offered assistance, either on an individual basis or through the numerous workshops I have been involved in.
If they turned down the offer of help and continued to turn up, my own inclination would be not to invite them to sing again right away, but wait a few weeks and let them try again (and so ad infinitum, until they either showed progress or stopped asking)."
Now mystery about how you find how to find out whether a newcomer can sing - unless you choose to make it one for the sake of avoiding the issue.
I'm afraid your attitude exudes a smugness - "doesn't effect our club so it doesn't exist"; not my nor other people's experience I'm afraid.
It is perfectly feasible that a number of poor singers descend on a club - seen it happen. I ask again - what would you do if it happened to yours? What would you do if a single singer who couldn't sing persistently turned up expecting to sing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Ian Fyvie
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

Jim and Brian

On singers who might be frowned upon by some:

At our singarounds we have the criterion of "Good intent". If a poor singer (and that's 'subjective' with some of those who fancy themselves in our area) then they will probably want to improve. In some cases someone who holds poor tune can nevertheless be a spirited performer or sing exceptional songs.

If someone will always be a 'perpetual beginner' then any decent folk club will allow them to continue if they are genuine, and don't cross that bottom line into being a total pain to listen to. It depends if you attract that awful bottom rung middle class type of audience for whom no-one is any good unless they're a teacher! In which case - change your audience.

Ian Fyvie