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BS: Education, Race 'n Community...
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:00 AM Tell me Bobert, Am I a bigot? You seem to think bigotry is good as long as you are the bigot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM That's an interesting, if inflamatory, way of putting it. All the social engineers who suspect that only one race is incapable of surviving the educational and economic challenges of life in the USA without their help in the form of government intervention... ...and yet, those who assume all races are equally naturally adept at learning and surviving are considered by these social engineers to be the bigots/racists. They mean well and don't even see the backhanded slap they give by their intervention. It's a mixed up, shook up world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:03 PM If it takes "intervention" to create "equal opportunity" then bring it on... Like I said, if that make me a bigot then I think the definition has been severly twisted around to the point where just about anything that one does to try to level the playing field is a form of bigotry... If so, then I agree 100% with John that it is indeed a "mixed up, shook up world..." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 07 Jul 07 - 04:10 PM "Like I said, if that make me a bigot then I think the definition has been severly twisted around to the point where just about anything that one does to try to level the playing field is a form of bigotry..." I'm not saying that "anything that one does to try to level the playing field is a form of bigotry". What I am implying is that there seems to be an inherently racist assumption -- that there is only one race in need of the "leveling". I just can't see Blacks as inferior in that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,Dani Date: 07 Jul 07 - 07:10 PM ... which really goes to the heart of these matters! For my school example, if we don't reach out in uniquely effective ways to recruit Black and Hispanic families to a school like this, we're not going to have them there. And then our elementary schools are either de facto segregated, or neighborhood schools, depending on your perspective. With regard to a school of choice, there are more than a few questions: WHY aren't certain groups represented? Are there misconceptions that can be corrected? HOW MUCH effort should be expended in reaching out to under-represented communities? HOW do you explain to the families that represent the status-quo/majority that this is an important thing to do, even if test scores suffer in the short term?! Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 07 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM And lastly, HOW do you intergrate schools without considering ***race***??? There are more poor white people than there are porr black people so using economic consideration, as aopposed to race, is no assurance that the schools will be intergrated, only that there is a greater possibility that poorer more afflunet white will attend the same schools and poorer and more affluent blacks will attend ***other schools***, you know, like before the 1954 Brown v. Topeka Board of Education decision... Isn't this what it boils down to??? If not, what the heck can I possibly be missing here??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 08 Jul 07 - 08:00 AM Why does it seem to bother people that Blacks like the company and association of other Blacks? Do we insist on going in and breaking up Chinatown? ...Little Italy? Is it the hope that if you can just get the Black kids into the "white" schools that they will learn to be less "black"? Do we just not like the way they teach their own children, and wish they'd teach them in a manner more in line with our sensibilities? ....doesn't that fly in the face of the ridiculous notion of "diversity" wherein the goal is to make sure that each and every ethnicity and race remains distinct -- so that we can enjoy difference for difference sake? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:31 AM Blacks were brought to this country as slaves... Italains and Asians weren't and white people have "allowed" these folks, along with every other wave of immigrants to assimilate into public education... Heritage, fine... Segregation, not so... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 08 Jul 07 - 11:33 AM So you're saying that because one person's ancestors came here volunteerly and another's came here by force, the ones whose ancestors came by force cannot learn the same way -- cannot function in society -- must be forced to associate with the majority in order to be educated? Are you trying to imply that only the slow ones got caught and sent the the Americas -- and so their offspring, one hundred years later are still slow and need help thriving in America? There's just no pretty way to tell a race of people that they aren't capable of making it without "our" help. Tell the Asians they came here overloaded with advantages. LOTS of white American's ancestory came over as indentured servants. It's not that black and white. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,Dani Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM OK, but take my school example. The poorest-performing is one of the poorest, and one of the Black-est. By merging the two schools, you will necessarily change all of those formulas: the academic success as measured by testing, the socio-economic numbers, and the racial balance. Wiser minds than I are trying to figure out the best way to balance those things. I don't think we're giving enough credit to the fact that SO MANY GOOD PEOPLE are struggling to figure this out. We are losing sight of what I feel is the very most important factor in a school's success; whether and how parents and the community are involved in the school on a daily basis. I feel that parents for sure, administrators absolutely, and every taxpayer should do school duty of some kind somewhere. We should REQUIRE it of parents and administrators and school board members. Mostly so they see the realities of school life in their communities, and also to provide the manpower/womanpower so badly needed. As far as "breaking up" racial lines, I don't think we should aim for getting Black kids into "White" schools, or White kids into "Black" schools. I don't want anyone to have as their goal making 'them' like 'us'! That said, there is a strong and vibrant Black component to my town. As much as I want my kids, ALL kids, to go to the absolute best schools they can, I want the schools they attend to represent ALL the community, not just the White blocks around where they live. No good is served by self-segregation. It probably won't look like that when they get to college, and it CERTAINLY won't look like that when they go to work. I don't want everyone to look/talk/think alike; I do want us all to know HOW each other look/talk/think on a regular basis. Dani |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: podman Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:27 PM I think that the idea that government should intervene in order to make adjustments per race/ religion/ ethnicity is an idea whose time is going and soon to be gone. Good Riddance. It is time for kids in school to sit still and pay attention. What I see is NOT a matter of race, but a matter of discipline and cultural tradition. If your folks make you mind your teachers and make you understand that doing well in school is important to them and to you, then a better world follows. If your folks tolerate your absence from school, abusing your teachers, then blame them and take them to court, disintegration follows, and possibly that kind of disintegration does lead to segregation - of the self. As the saying goes, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 08 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM I see Bobert and others telling poor people that the odds are against them. Things are "fixed" so they will never get ahead. Exxon is robbing them. They will never be able to break out of poverty. Rich people stole the money they should have etc. Just a bunch of horseshit. People are not born stupid, they are raised stupid and told they are disadvantaged ubtil they start to actually believe they can never get ahead. All they need is an education and to be told they can succeed if they apply themselves. No doubt Bobert will tell me I am wrong and stupid just like he would tell a poor person who thinks they can succeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jul 07 - 08:10 PM No, I am not saying that at all... I am just putting the current situation in some sort of historical perspective... There seems to be this mindset that it's black folks who haven't wanted to assimilate... Well, after being treated as second class people, legally and socially it is no wonder that many blacks have a distinct mistrust of white folks motives... Now to wit: the recent Supreme Court decision that in essense says the intergration is fine as long a "race" is not considered in the process??? No wonder blacks don't trust white folks... And, pleeeeze don't use Clarence Thomas as an argument 'cause he does not represent black people in any way, shape or form... No, I think ion this overall discussion it is only fair to bring historical perspectives as a means of figuring what it is about black folks that white people are so afraid of... What, maybe that if white people had to confront their own history that they might have to actaully apologize for slavery, 'er heavens no, think about ways to repair the damage done by slavery and another 100 years of Jim Crow??? No, these are legitimate issues if we are going to have this discussion and I'd challange anyone who doesn't think so to laym out a logical argument why this part of the discussion is not part of the overall spirit of this thread and the Supreme Court's decision... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Date: 08 Jul 07 - 09:23 PM podman and Dickey, there's no one reason why so many Black students and so many Latino students do so poorly in school. Would that there were just one reason. ** Dani, I very much respect, appreciate, and applaud your commitment to diversity. However, I don't believe that school desegregation efforts were initiated in the 1950s because diversity is intrinsically good. As I quoted in one of my earlier posts to this thread: "But no one should be confused about why African- Americans sought to enroll in desegregated schools. "There is no evidence that the long struggle of civil rights groups to end segregation was only motivated by a desire to have minority children sit next to white children," the Harvard report stated. "There was a strong belief that predominantly white schools offered better opportunities on many levels..." -snip- In other words, Black parents who pushed for school desegregation felt that their children would be more likely to get a quality education if they went to schools that were also attended by White students. If these parents could have been assured that their majority "Black" schools would have the same fiscal supports {including books & supplies, laboratories, building structure & building maintenance, and teacher/staff salary support} as "White" schools, they may not have pushed so strenuously for school desegregation. This point does not negate the fact that it's good for people of different races and ethnicities to know each other and have opportunities to socially interact with each other. But unfortunately, even in so-called integrated schools, classrooms may not be all that integrated {because of a number of reasons, but especially because of classroom stratification as a result of academic testing}. And positive interaction between children and teens of different races/ethnicities does not necessarily take place in integrated schools. Case in point: Although the student population was just about 50-50 {50% Black and 50% White} at my high school {which was the only public high school in my hometown}, and although 900 students were in my graduating class [and there was a total of 3,000 students in that school], because I did well on the placement academic test, I was one of 2 Black students in my classes throughout ALL my years at that school. There were NO classes that students in my group took with students in any other group except the one group in which the students had scored higher than we did. That group also had just 2 Black students. I'm assuming that the test graders were honest folks, and didn't stack the deck to make sure that these classes had only a couple of Black students. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if that had occurred. Another case in point-20 years or so afterwards...My daughter attended a small, racially integrated performing and visual arts [public] high school. All her classes were racially integrated. Some of the students-such as my daughter- had attended the performing/visual arts middle school. So a considerable number of the students had known each other for some time. However, my daughter informed me that most students in the middle school and high school voluntarily segregated themselves at separate lunch room tables. While she routinely sat at "integrated table" with a "mixed" group of friends, most of the White students sat at "their own" table, and most of the Black students sat at "their own" table. While I'm glad that my daughter bucked the self-segregation custom at her school, I can also understand why students of different races self-segregate. {Here's another personal story-The first day that I went down to lunch at my liberal arts college, I was invited to sit at the "Black table". I declined and went to sit down to eat with my Jewish roomate {why that Swedish Lutheran college with only 3 Black women as campus residents assigned me to room me with another "minority" is another story-well actually it's another part of the whole story}... Three years later, at the start of a new school year, I was seated at the Black table. Why? I was SICK of the "what do Black people want?" and "Do Black people get sun tans" and a host of other assorted questions, some well meaning, and some not. I was also tired about not studying anything about me or MY PEOPLE except in reference to dysfunction families and dysfunctional community systems in sociology classes. I wanted to hang with Black people so I could shoot the breeze using words and sayings and cultural references that I did not have to explain. I wanted to kick back and relax and just be me. And so I sat at the lunch table with other Black students instead of sitting at the "integrated table". And that was just what the doctor [in me] ordered at that time and in that space. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 08 Jul 07 - 09:56 PM Good point, MizziAzziz... What they called it when I was a teadher was "tracking" which was a fancy word for "segregation"... Yeah, though half your school was balck and half white you were only, what??? 1% of the black students who actually attended classes with white kids??? And this, after Brown v. Topeka Board of Ed??? Like I said in my last post, I firmly believe that white people have histroically behaved so poorly toward black people that it is no wonder that there is "waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop" attitude when white people try to do the right thing... That's what I don't get about white people??? Someone mentioned something about Asian and Italian students but it seems that white folks have ***allowed*** these groups to assimilate, to melt into the pot... You don't hear white folks sayin' anything bad about their kids going to school with either Asain or Italian kids but you sho nuff still have white parents who have strong feelings about their kids going to school with black kids... Like, and I'm being perfectly serious here, what the heck is this all about??? I remember my late uncle who grew up in the 20's in Detroit and he had lots of prejudices against this group or that group... Not against blacks, tho... Yeah, he would rail against Italians big time... But today, Italian kids have melted in... You don't have the Supreme Court deciding stuff about Italian kids attending certain schools... (Well, bobert, it's a color thing...) Is it??? Asian and Hispanic kids ain't all that lilly white but you don't have the Supreme Court jumpin' in their stuff tryin' to kick them outta intergrated schools... I mean, even with all this right winged anti-immigtrant crap you don't have the Supreme Court jumpin' in the middle of school boards over these folks??? No, it's the "black" folks that are still the center of attention in this long struggle against both our screwed up history and our society's screwed up thinking about how balck and white folks should/could/will/can live together as people of shared histories... This thing needs to get solved once and for all... The recent Supreme Court decision just kicked the can further down the road for reasons that I cannot fathom??? I mean, I don't care how many people say, "Well, the ruling wasn't so bad"... Nop, the ruling was worse than bad... This current crop of leaders is spineless and has no courage to take our society to a higher level... No, in their spinelessness, all they have done is punted a golden opportunty way down the road... ..and it makes me sick... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 09 Jul 07 - 09:39 AM Bobert: There was as muych bias against asians as there was against black people. Where did it go? People can assimilate if they want to. You seem to think the government is supposed to be like the Borgs and force people to do things against their will. You and people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are telling black people that they can't trust white people. I think to be fair you should perform some rap/hip hop/gangsta numbers during your performances. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jul 07 - 02:54 PM Bull, Dickey... Blacks have been in this country as long as women... Check it out... Both were brought here in 1619 which was a couple hundred years before Asians... And bull, Part B, Dickey... I don't need to tell anyone not to trust white folks... I mean, with all tyhe dumb stuff that white people have pulled histirically on black folks I ain't got some secret revelation here... BLack folks know... And if they are too young to rember the entire song they certainly got the last verse of it last week when the Roberts court decided that "race" could not be used as a variable in desegregating schools??? I mean, if this sounds rediculous, what do you think future generations will think of this decision??? Impeach John "Jim Crow" Roberts!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:07 PM I have tried to read all of your posts but admit to skimming some. Forgive me if I am repeating or missing something. Q - Your assumption, that "the full impact of Court decisions made in far-off Washington was not felt." is wrong. Many people, mistakenly, would agree with you. In Seattle, there is a very well established African American community that spans four or five generations. I was in high school when the first Black students were bussed in and I taught in that school twenty years later. I have now experienced the way Vancouver, B.C. handles the 'multicultural' mix. There are pros and cons of both. Yes, the problem of segretation in Seattle in the 60's was acute. This was mainly because the neighborhoods were segregated from each other along racial lines. Franklin (which was the mentioned above) was neither 'Black or White'. It was the 'Brown' school. That doesn't seem to have changed much. Thomas was full of shit when he said, "Simply putting students together under the same roof does not necessarily mean that the students will learn together or even interact. Furthermore, it is unclear whether increased interracial contact improves racial attitudes and relations." It definitely improved racial attitudes and relations. In addition, it changed the demographics of the entire city. The neighborhoods in Seattle became more integrated. Although Blacks were leaving the 'ghetto', Whites were still reluctant to live in Black areas of town but they left the areas where their Elementary kids were subject to bussing. Although the changes were imposed and the results were not the same as projected, racial attitudes definitely changed as people mixed more freely. In order to achieve integration in the schools, it was thought that 'bussing' students would be the answer. I applauded that decision and was one of the designated student 'hosts'. It was not easy to be taunted and spat upon by the Whites who opposed integration but I endured and learned from the experience. Happily, twenty years later when I returned, the school was fully integrated and Black and White students readily mixed in apparent oblivion to how it had been accomplished. Racial integration was taken for granted. The down side was that my daughter lived in a neighborhood that was bussed into a Black elementary school. The way the bussing plan worked was that the Black Pimary students (K-3) were bussed into the White schools and the White Intermediate (4-6) students were bussed into the Black schools. Although I certainly did not object to my daughter going to schools with Blacks, I did not like the fact that she spent 30 minutes (both ways)on the bus at such a young age. I thought that Black mothers felt the same way about their babies (K-3)who endured the same journey but at an ven younger age. In fact, I thought it was interesting that school system imposed this journey on Black students during the younger years. This, in itself, was a form of dicrimination. Most young children need to attend schools in their neighborhoods, close to home, so that their parents can be actively involved in their child's education. If there is opportunity, it is also best if the kids go home for lunch. If there are 'problems' at school (academic or behavioural) its best if the parents can be readly contacted and present if necessary to 'nip it in the bud'. Bussing made all of this impossible. Emotionally, I think its very hard on little kids to leave their neighborhood and attend school in a 'strange' place. It induced a sense of fear and isolation at a very young age. So, hmmm, maybe, at this point, it is no longer necessary to impose bussing. Maybe its time to look at a new model. In Vancouver, you are entitled to attend your neighborhood school if you wish. If you want to attend another school (for whatever reason) you must apply, get on the waiting list and wait for an opening. If you have an older sibling already attending the 'out of boundary' school, you are bumped to the top of the list. The exception is the French Immersion schools - everyone waits in line after the French as a first language, students. Both of my kids attended their neighborhood schools as elementary students, here in Canada. In high school, they chose 'out of boundary' schools according to their particular needs and interests. High school students in Vancouver are highly mobile and different high schools offer specialized programs within the standard curriculum. Its not a racial situation, its based on the needs of the student. So...as usual, the U.S. seems to have thrown the baby out with bathwater. What is really needed is to take a new and better approach. Seems to me that the solution lies locally and better funding for alternatives needs to become available. This recent ruling will only make the educational crisis in the U.S. more acute. It doesn't solve anything. If the problem is schooling, then fund the schools so that they can solve the problems! If the problem is housing, then fund affordable housing in all neighborhoods. Mixed income housing leads to racially integrated schools. PHEW! Why do I bother? When will the States begin to open their eyes and hearts? Is it really a lost cause? It makes me so happy to live in a civilized country. Moving to Canada was the best choice I ever made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:27 PM Dianavan - I think it really is a funding problem. If schools everywhere had adequate funding, I think the divisions would melt away much more quickly. If everyone wasn't forced to squabble over the small pittance of funding they were afforded, education could include more options, and there would be more unity. They way it is now, in most places, the tax base is best where the rich people live, so those schools are better off than the others. If the funding come from a different tax base--if it was federally funded, for instance, on a per student basis, where one lived wouldn't be so important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 09 Jul 07 - 09:30 PM Funding schools equally and building mixed income, affordable housing in all parts of the city is definitely a solution that should be tried. All people should have the right to equal opportunities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 09 Jul 07 - 09:39 PM I wish I could say thet it was strictly a funding problem but it isn't that easy... Wsahington D.C. spends $16,000 a year per student and has terrible results... D.C.'s problem goes back to the Barry adnministration where way too many middle mamagers made way too uch money and in the end the echools still didn't have heating systems that worked in the winter... No, this ain't as much about money as it is about will... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Jul 07 - 10:17 PM Bobert - I happen to be working for a company, a few years back, who won the contract to remediate the Washington DC shcools of asbestos. I'm still not sure this was a worthwhile endeaver, but I was placed in charge of a bunch of crews who worked only at night, in a major high school, a 24 hour a day operation. While is was wandering around waiting for the people to finish their work, I stumbled into the library one night. After that, I made a point to go there at every opportunity. I found history books that talked at length about the colonization and settling of North America. These books went of for almost two hundred pages about how much the African immigrants had to do with the colonization of America. When it came to talking about what the English had to do with colonizing the United States, they summed it all up in two-and-a-half pages. You're right. It's not all funding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM Bobert Its not that there isn't enough money. We all know there is enough money when it comes to war. Its just that the funding priorities (the will of the politicians) is completely askew thanks to lobbying and corporate greed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:56 AM Riginslinger, you comment that in one school library in an African American school you "found history books [which] for almost two hundred pages [talked]about how much the African immigrants had to do with the colonization of America. When it came to talking about what the English had to do with colonizing the United States, they summed it all up in two-and-a-half pages". Reverse your point and perhaps you can catch a slight glimmer of how I and others felt and how students who are African American and other non-European races & ethnicities still feel about the education systems' overwhelming focus on European history & European cultural contributions to the world. Wirh regard to those books you happened upon in that particular library, perhaps the African role in the colonization and settling of America was the focus of these specific books. And-though I doubt that this was the case- if ALL the books in that school library focused on African contributions to the history & culture of the USA and this world, then perhaps that librarian was making some small effort to provide her/or his students access to books other than the Euro-centric textbooks,library books, and other teaching materials that are over-whelmingly found in and used in most public schools in the USA. You are right-funding is not the only problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:35 AM Azizi - I gues the larger point is, now that everyone's abilitiy is being measured through universal testing, what chance does a student have to score well, when the material he/she has been given to study has no relationship to the test? I'm not saying I think it's right, but that's the way it is, at least right now, and that student will find himself at an even greater disadvantage than he otherwise would. Also, I looked to see if the books were produced by a major mainstream publisher, and they were. The whole thing speaks of a huge disconnect, but the victims are the students, it seems to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:16 AM Riginslinger, notwitstanding the point that I think you were making that what "universal testing" tests is not universal, it seems to me that you are still assumming that all the books in the library and all the text books in the school were Afrocentric in their approaches and in their content. One of the points that I was trying to make in my previous response to your comment was that the school administrators who approved the purchase of those Afrocentric books could have been trying to balance in a small way the Eurocentric curriculum that is taught in that school. That heavily Eurocentric curriculum has been and is still taught in most public schools in the USA]. With regard to the USA's educational system that is so heavily weighted towards Eurocentric history and Eurocentric cultures, I agree with you that "The whole thing speaks of a huge disconnect, but the victims are the students". I would also say that the victims of such a worldview embodied in that education are also American adults, and children, youth, and adults in the rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jul 07 - 10:14 AM "...it seems to me that you are still assumming that all the books in the library and all the text books in the school were Afrocentric in their approaches and in their content." I will assume further that we are talking only about books that bear on cultural issues. Science and math books I would think would be pretty much universal. History, however, is an interesting subject when one looks at it from an evolutionary perspective. The Korean government, for instance, complaining that Japanese history books gloss over the atrocities that were suffered prior to, and during WWII. When you look at it over the long haul, you have to wonder if anybody ever gets anything right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Date: 10 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM I talking about these subject being taught with from a Euro-centric framework and with text books and other materials which promote a Euro-centric worldview, and which provide little information or slanted information about other cultures and other parts of the world: American History World History Literature {often called "English lit"} but refers to literature written in English and not just literature from England Sociology/Anthropology Geography Music appreciation Art appreciation Current Events {if there is such a subject anymore] Religion {if this is taught in schools anymore -snip- Other folks can name other subjects if they choose to... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Jul 07 - 01:08 PM Warren Court, which was the last of the true activist courts ... This Roberts Court is the exact opposite... Problem is, Bill, that this Court [Roberts court] is so activist (Bobert) I see, Roberts Court is so activist and the exact opposite of the last true activist court. Bobertspeak: activist: working for goals Bobert dislikes true activist: working for goals Bobert likes Wolfgang (not surprised but disappointed by the decision) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 10 Jul 07 - 02:08 PM With the exception of Anthropology, I agree with your list Azizi. I think anthropology is the only subject that strives to identify how groups of people relate to each other and how individuals with groups define themselves. At least its a discipline that is aware of ethnocentrism. You forgot the worst offender of them all - psychology. I once taught in a predominately African-American school. It was the secretary, a pillar of the community (and the local Baptist church) who told me to leave my psychology at the door. It was, she informed me, designed by White folks for White folks and wouldn't work with the students in 'her' school. I soon learned that she was absolutely correct. I learned alot that year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:14 PM "I talking about these subject being taught with from a Euro-centric framework and with text books and other materials which promote a Euro-centric worldview, and which provide little information or slanted information about other cultures and other parts of the world:" Azizi - Yeah, I didn't get the drift of what you were saying until a short while after I posted my last comment. The staff was probably teaching American History--or something related--and used those text books to demonstrate another side to it. That would make sense and that's probably what they did. As I was there without a whole lot to do, I rummaged around in the library and looked through their curriculum quite a bit. The music, it seemed to me, was almost exclusively Afro-Centric, as was a lot of the Art. The building itself was four stories, old, dark, dank, and the restrooms were awful. Toilets and urinals were brown, sinks smelled terrible. In fact, if it wasn't for the new paint the workers were putting down at the time, the entire building would have smelled like raw sewage. The idea that we, as a society, were sending children there to go to school was nothing short of disgusting. It was enough to tear your heart out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:22 PM Ahhhh, Wolfgang, you are absolutely correct... I don't like segregation... I don't like the corporations being able to own my government... I don't like Dick Cheney being able to lie to the American people and get US into the worst war in our history but a kid can't waer a tee-shirt that says "Bong Hits 4 Jesus"... I don't like a male dominated government telling women what or what they can not do with their reproductive systems... Now if yer fir these things, fine... You have every right to support the policies of yesteryear... You have a right to say that slavery should be brought back... Yeah, knock yerself out... The activist judges of yesteryear, IMO, moved our country forward toward a more civilized one... The curreent 5 so-called conservatives aren't taking our country ***forward***... They are taking it backward... That's not just my opinion but the opinion of millions and millions of other Americans who see this current bunch as mischeivious activits... I can't think of any other court in our history that was so Hell-bent on slammin' the US gearshift in reverse... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:03 PM Except that, Wolfgang, "activist" by definition is a court that chooses to ignore the Constitution in favor of political agendas. Actist is opposite "true constructionist". "activist" courts do not interpret the constitution -- they write law from the bench. Often law that has NO basis in the Constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:01 PM Yes, John, and also know as "strick constructionists"... These folks ***do*** act purdy much as legislators... Problem is that in a democracy we attempt to have a representative governemnt... Right now, with a court so out of kilter with the American people, representation can be thrown out the window... Okay, it can be argues that Brown v. Topeka Board of Education was an "activist" decision because the Constitution make no specific reference to school intergration and I can't argue that it wasn't an "activist" decision... I can argue that it made our country more civilized... But, hey, isn't having a more "civilized" country a "value" thing??? Well, yeah, it is... and that is the beauty of our Consitution... It allows us to collectively "ammend" the thing which allows the country to evolve... The country did exactly that in adopting ther 13th Ammendment which should have had US a lot further down the road then we got during the 100 years after the 13th Ammendment... Now it seems that we are nitpicking what at the time was the US's thinking about black folks... So the "srrict constructionists" will fall back on their "Well, the Constituion doesn't explictly say that schools should be intergrated" and the "loose constructionists" will say, "Yeah, okay, but what about the 13th Ammendment and what about Brown v. Topeka Board of Ed..." My own feeling about strict or loose is that these labels are almost interchangable in that when you have 9 people who think their job is to create policy, better keep an eye on them and be sure they are doing so for the good of the country... The current batch??? IMO, no... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:51 PM But the current "batch" is not "creating policy". They are interpreting the Constitution -- and doing so in such a straighforward, non-tortured manner that anyone can see what the constitution says and why the court has ruled (constitutionally) as it has. I don't get the "strick" or "srrict" comments. If you're trying to make a point with that, it's over my head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:53 PM Bull... They are very much legislating usiong the guise of "Well the Consititution" dosen't explicitly say that you can't ****sue race**** to intergrat/desegregate schools... No, might of fact it doesn't... It makes no mention of desegregatin' schools... Does this mean that we should resegregate schools since they were segregated at the time of the writing of the Comsistuion??? Or to take this a tad further...; Should we reinstitute slavery since it is not deatl with in the Constitution... I mean, if you strictly construnct the Constitution the Emmancipation Proclamation is not Constitutional... I mean, lets get real here... Constitutaional law isn't just about the strick interpretaion of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights... It's also about the evolution of our country and precidence... To think not is very narrow minded and, ahhhh, excuse me, but very Talibanish... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:29 PM Bobert - I agree, Roberts and Alito are activist judges. They are there to help the wealthy screw the working people, no matter what color. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:33 AM "1619 which was a couple hundred years before Asians..." Asains arrived here 12,000 years ago Bobert. Later on Filipino sailors were the first to settle in the U.S. around 1750 And I say again, there was as much bias against Asains as there was against blacks. Where did it go? Bias against blacks is a left over from the southern states who did not want to give up slavery. They fought the northern states and the north won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 11 Jul 07 - 03:59 PM Techincally, Asians ***did*** arrive earlier but you have missed the point, Dickey... They weren't part of European colonization of America... This is an important point and cannot bwe lightly dismissed with loopholes... The reality is that Asians came long, long after Africans... Long after... The point is that on the time line every wave of immigrants prior to the Hispanics have been assimilated except... ... African Americans... As for racism, it isn't just a southern problem... It is a national problem and the sooner that our nation owns up to it and makes the necessary corrections the better for our status as a civilized nation of just law... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jul 07 - 10:23 PM "And I say again, there was as much bias against Asains as there was against blacks. Where did it go?" The earlier settlers could see the problems that were developing that related to blacks, subsequently, they passed the "Chinese Exclusion Act," and that's where it went. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 12 Jul 07 - 04:34 PM One important point is that Asian immigrants remained culturally intact (except for immediate family members who joined them later). Their language and cultural traditions were not destroyed. Assimilation was gradual. Although social and working conditions were harsh, they were allowed to live amongst each other and continued to educate themselves. Africans were stripped of their languages, their families, their traditions and their religion. They were, in fact, subjected to cultural genocide. They were not allowed access to education in any form and even after they were freed, barriers were erected. I think the operative word is cultural genocide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jul 07 - 09:00 PM Exactly, d... This is the point where the Dickey's disappear (or resort to game playin') because they know they are not only on the wrong side of American history but the wrong side of the Robert's court... Roberts will be impeached within the next 10 years... He and his buddy Alito are too out of step with the country... He would have been fine a 100 years ago... Well, okay, not fine... But at least more in line with the politics of the day... The American people are well beyond he and Alito's world views... This seem to be the problem with the entire Bush administration... It is way too "Talibanish" and the American people (as well as the populations of the world) have had just about enough of extremeists on both sides... Like I said... ...Impeach John Roberts!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM Bobert: The civil rights struggle is over with except for old die hard hippies stuck in the 60's and civil rights "leaders". The superior court decision is based on present conditions. I think it is progressive but you want to keep the status quo. Time to join the 21st Century and embrace the present. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:46 AM "Roberts will be impeached within the next 10 years... He and his buddy Alito are too out of step with the country..." This is where I think you have it backwards, Bobert. EVEN IF I granted you that Roberts and Alito are "out of step" with the country (I don't grant you that, but for the sake of this discussion, just lets say I do)... ...what you are suggesting isn't the way our government is supposed to work. Roberts and Alito are not "out of step" with THE CONSTITUTION. And THAT is the only thing they are SUPPOSED to be in step with. If the rest of the country does not like the way the Constitution is written, it is up to them to change the Constitution via their representatives. The Legislative branch does not change the Constitution by impeaching judges with whom they disagree. The Legislative branch has the prerogative to change the Constitution. Then the judges rule according to the changed will of the people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jul 07 - 10:28 AM Roberts and Alito will keep the country headed in the wrong direction for years. If we get a Republican president next term, there's no hope for the country. Of course, there's always the chance and Roberts and Alito will see the errors of their ways and repent, like David Souter did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Date: 13 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM no hope for the country? wow. how very apocalyptic. Is it really that bad where you live? Really? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jul 07 - 11:32 AM It's bad and getting worse. It's been that way since whoever was running Ronald Reagan put the country into a nose dive in the early 1980's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jul 07 - 08:41 PM No, JOhn, we disagree Constitutional law... The strick constructionist tend to leap-frog over a couple centuries of precidents and evolution and use a very narrow interpretyation in order to further political idealogies... Yes, I will admit that the Warren Court was guilty, and thank God for it... The Warren Court moved our country more into the flow of the way that global civilization was moving... This, IMO, was good for the country... I mean, without such movements and precidents we might still have slavery... I mean, who is to say that the Emancipatiopn Proclamation would have surviced a Robert's/Alito Court??? Think about that for one minute... The pedulum is swinging away from the conservatives... They had a nice little run but the country ahs seen that the conservatives have not shown to be good govern-ers and what we are going to have very shortly in an executive and legislative branch that is far left of the Supreme Court... If this court repeats next year what it did this year it will not only insure that a Democart will win the White House and take a larger control of Congress but it will pit the Courst against thw will of the American people... When that occurs, impeachment will be on everyone's lips... This prediction from one man who predicted everything that has now happened in Iraq... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Date: 14 Jul 07 - 02:28 AM Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq? From: Bobert - PM Date: 09 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM "After two days of intensive bombings and every family in Iraq having lost a parent, sibling or child in the the bombings" Did this prediction come true? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jul 07 - 01:27 PM "Did this prediction come true?" We don't know. There isn't anybody left alive to ask. |
