Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: GUEST,Gus Date: 02 Nov 06 - 07:01 PM Going back to Celtic traditions, human sacrifices, although offically banned from around 300 AD, old traditions where certainly practiced covertly well after this time. In my locality in the South West of England (Devon), there are still songs remembered by folk regarding anual human sacrifices to rivers and such. I am convinced Celtic beleifs are deeply ingrained in the belief structure of old Celtic nations, so that later religions (Christianity) are merely a veil for deeper beliefs held by the populace. Why are all the major festivals at dates that where originally important Celtic events? |
Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 02 Nov 06 - 08:18 PM A few points running back over the thread - Turnip-hollowing can't be very old since the turnip (swede, rutabaga) was only introduced into Scotland late in the 18th century. The Mexican Day of the Dead, as well as using indigenous symbolism, is a pre-columbian event. Early colonists gave descriptions of it; it went one step further than the modern celebration in that each family would exhume its dead relatives so they could be propped up and take part in the feast. (I wonder how the US's constitutional freedom of religion would cope with a group that wanted to go back to that?) The "11 days" rioters were not as naive as anonymous GUEST thinks. It wasn't about swindled out of lifespan but being swindled out of money. Landlords were claiming a full year's rent despite 1752 having only 354 days. |
Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: GUEST,Hugh Date: 02 Nov 06 - 09:16 PM Well you see it all goes back to propaganda and being politically correct. Those old Romans were every much into ancestor worship and those sort of things. So being pagan that was not on for the church when it eventually made it to official status. So whilst praying for the dead took place in the early church, there was no real commemoration. If it did start up (Maundy Thursday was apparently the popular day) it was officially frowned on, just in case ancestor worship stated up again and that certainly wouldn't do. Now in 998 Odilo, Abbott of Cluny, started our 'modern' celebration on All Hallows and it stuck. I mean if the Abbott of Cluny was doing it, who was going to criticise! It was Kosher, well it couldn't be Kosher as that's jewish but you know what I mean Now for lovers of trivia, if you are an Anglo-catholic in England (There are Catholics in the Anglican church) and study or work in education you can legally have a half day off to go to mass on All Saints day. So, if it is Druids hollowing out turnips or good old Odilo – as they say you pays your money and you take your choice. |
Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: Rowan Date: 03 Nov 06 - 02:43 AM What a lot of northern hemisphere stuff! And I'm not criticising. Perhaps because the Celts and Druids were known never to have got to Kakadu we're spared a lot of this. The Irish were not 'top of the pops' among the protestant hierarchy in Old Sydney Town so many of their traditions got here in mutated form, if at all. Brought up in various forms of Protty experiences I was aware of All Saints' Day but not the rest of it all. (Even though I knew the high church Anglican practices in Melbourne (greatly distrusted by the 'more Baptist than the Baptists' Anglivcans in Sydney) I never knew of All Hallows Eve and All Souls' Day until I became familiar with more Catholic practices. Of course, American culture was unavoidable so we all knew about Halloween but I never saw a pumpkin (or even a turnip/swede_ lantern until I went to South Carolina. Of course, it was in SC that I found out why Americans used pumpkins to make pies; they're quite different to Australian pumpkins, which (I found out from an English friend) were regarded in England as "fit only to feed cattle." Some, however, used them to make scones, however (what Americans seem to call biscuits). Bonfire night was something else though. We had two, both accompanied by fireworks and thus known as "Cracker Night". The major one in Melbourne was 5th November, 'officially' called Guy Fawkes Day, when large collections of combustibles were piled in selected streets in the outer suburbs and ceremoniuosly set alight, occasionally with a "guy" (not stabbed nor abused as described in another thread) dressed with little relevance to Fawkes that was apparent to me at that time. The minor one was on Empire Day, usually celebrated on 24th May (thought by many of us to be Queen Victoria's birthday) with smaller bonfires and no guy. In the 50s (I think) the name of this event was changed to Commoonwealth Day and later (late 60s?) was moved to the Sunday nearest the date, accompanied by another name change to "Commonwealth Youth Sunday. I've not seen it even mentioned for the last 30 years. Fireworks were banned after yet another youngster lost eyes/fingers/whatever and the sizzle went out of both events. Bushfire awareness nailed the coffin lid on the last vestiges. But I suspect the real reason for their demise was the lack of relevance to us south of the equator. I have particular reason to be aware of the September equinox (I'm a "Christmas Leave baby") but It's always been called the Vernal Equinox around here. And the Australian Christmas Carols thread is further evidence of the breaking away from northern hemisphere traditions. But American cultue is difficult to keep in America and there are some kids who think Halloween should be celebrated with trick-or-treat notions. Then they are reminded of the Japanese tourist who tried trick-or-treat (in Louisiana?) and ran foul of another, less admirable, American tradition. Sigh! The Americans among us are girding their loins (and I use the term advisedly) for another of their traditions which I think has a lot going for it but I (for one) wouldn't want to transplant here. Thanksgiving seems perfect for married couples. In places like America and Australia, members of a family can be spread around the countryside and separated by the width of a continent. With only Christmas as the major 'getting everyone together' festival you always have the discussion "Your rellies or mine, this year?" Americans can do both sets of rellies only a month apart so nobody's nose gets out of joint. But, given that the stress of such obligations is a major cause in the spike of suicide statistics, perhaps we're lucky having only one stressful occasion each year. Make the most of it! Cheers, Rowan. |
Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: Kweku Date: 03 Nov 06 - 03:18 AM wow! interesting stuff about this halloween. nice to hear why some westerners dress crazy here in Ghana when it is HALLOWEEN. |
Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: Mrs.Duck Date: 03 Nov 06 - 06:29 PM Until I was about fifteen all schools where I grew up (just outside London)started late on All Saint's day to allow people to go to church. After that it changed so that you could ask permission to go but if you were not attending church you had to go to school. Same on Ash Wednesday. I see no surprise that so many religions have celebrations at similar times. Early civilisations wondered at the power of nature and so major festivals often fall at times when day length or seasons change. Later religions, particularly Christianity, chose to impose there own festivals at these times to try to incorporate pagan festivals into the church calendar. I just enjoy the excuse to have fun! |
Subject: RE: Halloween Origins From: Lighter Date: 01 Nov 21 - 07:04 AM Haven't read the thread to see if this origin tale has already been told here: https://www.yahoo.com/news/irish-cave-known-entrance-onto-002500489.html |
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