This site is NOT like all the rest.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:30 AM

Ickle Dorritt, thanks for There may be some who spend more time here -but frankly that's there choice and since it ain't a crime I don't think I or anyone else should patronise them for it.

We do have some members, including the more music types who are housebound or nearly. So what if they spend a lot of time here? If it gives them pleasure and allows them to keep in touch with the outside world more, why not?

It also does not mean that is all they do. It could just as easily mean they are more efficient at using their time, so have the opportunity to post more.

Like Catspaw there is plenty of other stuff I do during my day and evening. Working at home allows me to check in frequently. It's just like phoning up friends, only in some cases a lot cheaper, as it wouldn't be a local call!

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:44 AM

kat -hear! hear! said far more succinctly by your goodself than by me!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:22 AM

Sorry McGrath, I have searched the Universe and there is no other sight comes close. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:53 AM

Boldly going where noone else has gone before...

I suppose that's why so often people get so protective and possessive about the Mudcat, and that's half the source of the trouble that blows up from time to time. "Each man kills the thing he loves."

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

I can't answer you question McGrath. It is pretty well impossible to go looking at forums and get a quick impression of what they are really like. Even this place has its bad times, in jokes and humor that probably means nothing to anyone reading for the first time...

As regards format, Mudcat is unusual in the way it lumps everything together in one forum. Whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know but personally I prefer the ones that allow say separating BS from music and perhaps adding a couple of more specific categories. I know that this is something Max is against (and from what I can figure from the design of Mudcat would be difficult to implement) but I can't help feeling that approach would keep the "pure music people" happy without really inconveniencing anyone. Also I think some of the possessiveness you mention is really a sort of struggle to "control" (not the best choice of words - maybe direct?) the single centre stage here.

One forum that I have been following with interest but doesn't appear to have taken off is The Heartcall Cafe. It seems almost a copycat of Mudcat without the dt (although the forum design is different).

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:15 AM

"Also I think some of the possessiveness you mention is really a sort of struggle to "control" (not the best choice of words - maybe direct?) the single centre stage here."

--Jon Freeman

Thank you Jon. I agree with you. Politics is squeezing the life out of this place. And I agree with Bill D. This place is something brand new in the world. And it has so much potential. But it will never realize that potential unless we all are willing to find a way to let it be what it needs to be and not try to control it.

I think if we do that, it can be more amazing than any of us could ever imagine. But I think if we don't do that, it will just be a momentary stopping place for people who stay for a little while, get tired of the politics, and then leave.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:40 AM

I think it's more complicated than that. I think that maybe some of the time the unpleasantness and the politics have a positive effect, even when in themselves they may be damaging.

I was reading somewhere about how bones when healing need to be subject to some kind of stress, and the outcome from constantly repairing minor damage is actually better and stronger than if there hadn't been the damage in the first place.

I'm not suggesting taking that analogy too far. It's just one of the elements in a complicated process.

I had a look at that Heartcall Cafe site. Clearly very new, maybe it'll build up into something, and good luck to it - since there seems to be a fair number of people who say they prefer the separate forums approach, it could be a place for them to test out whether it really works for them.

I came back to the Mudcat with renewed appreciation of the way Max has resisted the calls for breaking up the Mudcat into sub-forums and so forth, and has kept it all looking so clean and clear and open. And no preformed emoticoms, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:46 AM

I agree with you to an extent, McGrath. But I think maybe if people put less effort into trying to "direct" the center stage here, we might be able to acheive the same good without having to break any bones.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:05 PM

The Heartcall Cafe already has a 'flavor', if I can use that metaphor...it is very much imbued with the character of it's founder/owner and seems to be directed toward current/pop-folk. This is not a bad thing, it is just a direction, and will please many if they even find it. It can certainly provide an alternative to Mudcat in some ways, with the various forums.

I will look in from time to time, but feel no urge to jump in there. I hope they prosper, as there should be a variety of venues for discussing music.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:06 PM

I agree on the possibilities of growth Carol but I just can't see it happening with the current format and I suspect the politcs and the rows will continue.

The situation I think we have at the moment is some wishing for music only, others wanting just about anything and some like myself somewhere in the middle. I simply see no place for something like the healing circle for the reasons of potential volume.

Looking at it from my angle, I see the possibilities of growth as desirable if this place is a community but I have difficulties in accepting the every post brought to everyones attention situation especially as some topics are of very limited interest to some "sub groups".

Referring back to Bruce O, I read at least one post that suggested that anyone who couldn't handle or didn't like the chat was in some way weird. Is that really a caring community? Do we really want to drive other members out? Or Should we perhaps look for ways that satisfy everyone?

I doubt that the main forum will ever split BS from Music and maybe Max is right - I don't know but I do know that there are certain areas that are always likely to resurface and almost guaranteed to spark of rows which is why I tried to make the offer I did which is as close as I can come to making it Mudcat without being on this site - I even (I think) have the technology to allow an individual 'catter to be the moderater of say a healing circle (something that is not of specific interest to me)...

Needless to say, I have had no responses. Maybe it's because of my personality - I don't know but even if it is, the fact remains that anyone (at least I think so - I've had things running on my PC but only got the notification of my domain, etc about 5 minutes ago - have yet to try) could set such a thing up - this one has cost me £50 for 12 months and should offer sufficient space to suit threads of a more temporary nature.

Funny really, we have had (what ended up back here) temporary solutions such as Aine and the song book, Alan and the MIDI, BBC and resources. Why can't options of us expanding in other ways be considered? why can't we try and look at the other sides? Why can't we look at perhaps making this place more attractive to all and may allow growth without shoving stuff up the faces of others?

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM

I don't know if it will get to testing out or not McGrath. I see personal reasons for preferring Mudcat even though it doesn't have the format I like:

1. This site has an owner who has proved to be excellent (regardless of my difference of opinion on some issues) and I have some understanding of how this place works.

2. It is the home of the dt.

3. It has such a wealth of old topics and information.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:20 PM

There is a similar forum for gardeners, but not with the elegant design that Max has custom created here at Mudcat. There are people on the www.gardenweb.com forums who have connected with each other over their discussions. The forums I have found for artists and illustrators are plagued with ego competitions and flaming. I have thought about this subject of Mudcat's unique member interaction... I do think the folk music has an influence on the type of people drawn to this forum. Music is more of a shared experience, especially ensemble playing and singing, and there is something about sharing that makes people more generous and thoughtful of the reaction of others. The artists seem to be in their own little fantasy world that they create, and posture for attention even more than ego inflated musicians. My career has been in art instead of music, so I really am aware of this difference. In the 3D world, my friends from music have been much more kind and caring toward myself and my son than the people I know through art. This has been made crystal clear to me recently because of some things that have happened to change our relationship with an artist friend I've known for over 25 years. The musicians we know from the session have enriched our life through our musical connection, whereas the artist, I am now aware, used his friendship to build up his image. He talks about people as his "fans", not his friends. I suppose there are musicians who are that way, too, but it seems like the artists I know and most I meet on art forums, are fighting dog-eat-dog to get their work enshrined in someone's collection. There is something about music that makes people "connect" more to others. The visual arts have isolated me, and music has brought me closer to people.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:23 PM

You haven't heard from me, Jon, about the healing forum because it is not something I am interested in, nor have time for. I think it is quite generous of you to offer, though. Maybe when Susan comes back from vacation she will contact you about it.

Part of the reason I am not interested is because there has been so much acrimony over it. I do hope, though, that we never come to a time when people do not feel free to post a request for help, as several threads we've had most recently have done, seemingly without too much contentiousness, I suppose because they were not titled specifically as healing or good thoughts threads.

I've already had one regular member send me something they didn't want to risk putting on the Forum and it wasn't even about healing. It was music related and I thought would have been very appropriate, but the Mudcatter was not comfortable in taking that risk. I find that very sad esp. because this particular 'Catter is very well loved and has never been one to enter into any of the controversy.

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST,Allan Terego
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:35 PM

Two of the issues that have come up time and again when I've looked in here are whether there is enough music, and whether Mudcat is or has a clique mentality. I think I've seen a fair sampling of the arguments on both sides of these issues and though both sides make their points well, the conclusions seem to always be the same. The vast majority of members feel there IS enough music - and from what I've seen, I agree - and that if you want to be part of any core group of people, you're welcome to. All you have to do is act civily. Here's my opinion on one of these issues.

Whether it's in the real or cyber world though, you have to have certain people skills to fit in. That has nothing to do with the 'rules' of Mudcat or anything else, it's simply how tribes come together or break apart. Some people see a party and go and join it. Others see the same party and stay home saying "why wasn't I invited"? A few seem to say "I don't like parties, and I don't want them to exist for anyone else." Often the latter few band together, united primarily against the first group. It's a different kind of party, based on cynicism, but it's still a party.

It's just like sports or politics or music or anything else that's fun to discuss.

Allan

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:38 PM

Regarding other forums, the www.gardenweb.com site is linked to another set of forums that I used to frequent a couple of years ago. http://forums.thathomesite.com/forums/ has forums for many, many topics, like parenting, hobbies, work, health, cars, pets, school...and just hanging out like you are in someone's kitchen (The Kitchen Table). People on the "kitchen table" forum chat about what would be called BS here... jokes, tv programs, whatever comes up. The forums, though, have a filter that will kick you out permanently, if your posting contains a keywork on the hit list. So, you can innocently post something like, "We went to see Damn Yankees last night", the obscenity filter would pick it up, and you would be permanently blocked from using the forum.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:42 PM

I forgot to include the forums at naturenet, for birdwatching, camping, etc. I used to link my site to Naturenet forums when I had pages on birds, butterflies, and wildflowers. The birdwatchers do seem to connect as a friendly community, as they post sightings of different kinds of birds throughout the year, and share information.
http://www.nature.net/forums/

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:35 PM

You could be right, Jon, about the rows continuing. It looks to me like one of the problems is that the different groups of people with different ideas about how things should be here are so completely invested in their own version of what this place should be, there is no room for compromise.

It looks to me like each group thinks that they will lose everything if they compromise about anything. And so no one is willing to compromise at all.

I think what katlaughing said about the person being afraid to post something in the forum does an excellent job of illustrating what I was saying about politics squeezing the life out of the Mudcat. When people become afraid to post to the forum, the Mudcat is in trouble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM

Another site I regulary visit is The Taxidermy Industry Message Forum, it is a good site, but they seem to have similar problems as this one with flamers and trolls.Yhey have just lost one of their most knowledgable members because of this,(see the thread "And Nobody Stood Up" 17.7.01).john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:17 PM

Thanks Alice and others. Some of those look worth bookmarking and dropping in on. I wondered if the Kitchen Table had an actual public list of outlawed expressions - that could be a bit awkward. I can imagine there being outlawed words that wouldn't even be allowed in the outlawed list in case the computers exploded.

I noticed this bit of advice there: "Please avoid topics like politics and religion where opinions vary widely and feelings can be strong." I'm inclined to think that if you don't feel strongly about something it's not likely you'll have anything interesting to say about it; and if everyone agrees, you can't exchange views very usefully.

I think that a policy of talking through differences, but trying to do so in a way that is respectful of others, is a better one. And of course with the Mudcat if we had a policy of avoiding topics where there widely varying opinions and strong feelings, the forum couldn't exist at all, since that would rule out much of the discussions about folk-music related matters.

I like the idea of specialist side-rooms growing up alongside the Mudcat, through the initiative of individuals - which is a very different thing from subdividing the main forum from on high. So I hope Jon's kind offer provides an opportunity for that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:19 PM

A agree with much of what you say Carol but I'm not sure that the life will be squeezed out of Mudcat. I think Mudcat will continue for several years with some drifting in, some drifting out and some returning. Much of this is probably natuaral and caused by circumstances other than politics, rows and fears.

What is most worrying to me is there does seem to be general agreement about Mudcat having changed (before my time) and that there have been a number of the more expert posters leaving, and leaving in greater numbers than they are replaced.

I'm not suggesting that every whim can be catered for but I agree that compromises should at least be considered. It, too me, seems rather sad that a forum which has "a magazine dedicated to folk and blues" should at times seem so indiferent to these losses.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:59 PM

I agree with you, Jon, that politics probably won't kill the Mudcat. But I think a lot of what makes the Mudcat special (maybe vibrancy is a better word) is lost because of politics. I think that's maybe a more precise way of putting what I was trying to say. I think that politics is a big factor in a lot of peoples loss of interest in the Mudcat, and I think this prevents the Mudcat from realizing its full potential. That's how things look to me, anyway.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:02 PM

Comes down to this; I like it here.

Often a facetious response seems appropriate and sometimes I even have something decent to add to a discussion. It used to be more true that the topics were ones that made me interested enough that I'd might want to respond. Often I'm not in physical shape to jump in even when interested in a thread. But I enjoy seeing what profound and/or silly topic is uppermost in whomever's profound and/or silly mind at the moment. And I've not found another site like this one yet. That does not bother me any more than the actual fact that alien life forms have yet to reveal themselves to me. I know what I know---like what I like---jump in when the water sin't too cold or too warm. I know that some infantile children like to piss in the water, but it's good to know that Joe is handy with the chlorine bottle. Lemon-colored clouds in the water might've got me upset me if I'd personally seen it physiologically syphoned/injected into the water. --- What I don't know about, hopefully, won't hurt me (much). Reading the thread title should give me at least a hint about the topic being discussed. If the ink looks yellow, I just assume it's that kind of journalism -- and I leave those threads alone. I'm probably better off for it.

I've made some friends here and reinforced many other important friendships.---Several I've even talked to on the phone. (No, Harpgirl does not sound like Blossom Dearie even though that's how I pictured her voice in my mind's ear.) Many people I knew during my road years are here, lurking. I know. They tell me when I embarrass myself --- or if I say good stuff once in a while too. Many even understood and knew why I started that condom thread ages ago. It's always great to reunite with old and new friends here at Mudcat and I thank "Max and the boys"* for all of that. I've swapped CDs and tapes with so many mudcatters that I can't even count 'em. (If Dick wonders why I've not ordered from Camsco recently, it's because that's the way I hear music these days. It leaves more cash for medical needs.) Carol and I wear Tallahassee T-shirts we've been sent by a Mudcatter and we've had visits from Mudcatters just passin' through mid-America. We send private messages to folks commiserating about medical frailties all the time.

Well, if this doesen't look like a 3-D community, it's only 'cause you've got (at least) one eye closed.

All the best, my friends,

Art Thieme (* see John Steinbeck's great short novel, Cannery Row)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: bbc
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:09 PM

Love you, Art! Thanks for writing & thanks for being here!

bbc

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:46 PM

Well-said, our "Fine" Art. Thanks for being one of the best parts of the Mudcat. It is always an honour and privilege when you take us under your folkie wing.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:37 PM

Thank you TOLEDO for your very valuable contribution to this thread. John

Ps I also like your music which is equally as valuable!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:54 PM

quoting Alan Terego from above: ". Some people see a party and go and join it. Others see the same party and stay home saying "why wasn't I invited"? A few seem to say "I don't like parties, and I don't want them to exist for anyone else." ...amen!

cliques are usually groups of people who found common interests and regularly talk to each other...sometimes they work to exclude others, but that's not what I see here. If your sense of humor, interests, hobbies and **attitude** fit, and you are willing to say 'hello', you may be part of it before you know it!...

I have been here for 4+ years, and there are conversations I just can't follow easily, or my 'take' on things just isn't the same...so I don't try. But neither do I assume that anyone is 'excluding' me. I say what I have to say, post some songs and autoharp help, and debate some of the issues...and read the Song Challenges that Aine starts and the stories that Peter T starts with awe...'cause I can't write like that!

Yes, there are those who found the range of banter and occasional flame wars to be just too distracting, and they preferred to spend their energies elsewhere....sad, but....

I just know that the upcoming FSGW Getaway has been given new life thru the participation of Mudcatters who heard about it here....and thus, my RT life is better..(I am MUCH more fun to talk to RT..*grin*...and I play music, too!)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: nutty
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:39 PM

I learnt early in life that the two subject most likely to cause very heated arguements are politics and religion and in this the "Mudcat" society is no different to society at large.
Ignoring such threads is so much easier on the blood pressure.
It's the diversity of opinion/taste that draws me to Mudcat and I hope it continues for many years to come.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:35 PM

To repeat for the hundredth time, there have been no essential changes in the mix of Mudcat stuff since it started, except that there is much more of everything to wade through, thanks to its popularity (is this a problem?, see the Jug thread ad nauseam for variations on this theme). There was no Golden Age (after all, if I was there it couldn't be golden by definition). Some people left, some people stayed. If you ask music questions in any detail, people pop out of the ground. They always did. Maybe not enough of them to satisfy purists, but there never were. The experts have always been scarce, compared to the general enthusiasts. It is not perfect. There were always limitations here: for instance, there has never been a strong blues focus, ever, in spite of Max's desire, and the banner. There are others. It is a nice place, except for the threads about how it used to be wonderful, where are the true folk lovers, yawn. One almost wishes for one of those dreary Irish politics thread (ALMOST!).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:09 PM

Thank you Peter, but please, NOT Irish politics.......those who know, know and those who don't know will never know. Please, please not Irish politics. (I am NOT trying to make light of an important subject OK?)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:41 PM

Peter T, I wasn't around at the start so I honestly can't tell although I seem to remember raising the question in my early time I was here about whether there was a good old day and seem to remember Rick Fielding anwering that things did change and he learn't to adapt - I've always beleived there were changes since then. More recently I read an answer by spaw about gargolye that again seemed to indicate there were changes... perhaps I've been listening to the wrong people - I am in no position to judge but would be interested to hear from other parties...

As for the rest, I can only say that you perfectly illustrate the sickness around here. Why condemn without at least providing arguments or trying to put the other side down? The most I have proposed in terms of change is to provide space for some potentially troublesome areas that seem to recurr with no resolution and to try to help them grow and yet all you can do is yawn. The rest of my stuff has been trying to analyse reasons for circular patterns in all my time here.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

Jon,

Two hallmarks of dysfuctional group dynamics: fear of change and fear of outsiders.

The "problems with Mudcat" are only perceived by those who are NOT involved in the dysfunctional group dynamic. Those at the center of it are too busy unconsciously and blindly defending the dysfunctional status quo.

If the most boisterous and obnoxious dysfunctional group members bothers you to the point where you are suggesting a cure, you probably *should* give up on Mudcat. As demonstrated by their contempt/silence/collective yawn about your excellent offer to provide a Mudcat only forum for prayer threads, they are just too heavily invested in their group dynamic to change.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:09 AM

Actually, I think Mudcat is exactly like other on-line folk music forums. All of them have a hierarchy, and all of them have a core group of regulars who dominate the forum.

In Mudcat, the dominant group is heavily invested in what I would call "Mudcat social clubs" ie small groups of regulars who have met one another, and socialize occassionally. Some more occassionally than others, from what I can tell.

When we are too internalized and caught up in our personal dramas and dilemmas, opposition comes along to restore balance and remind us about other people and the outside world. Oppositions are, after all, about increasing our awareness. And when we can't handle the awareness, we project on others.

Because one of the main changes to Mudcat over the years was the introduction of the BS threads, we've seen the a small, core group of people use the forum almost exclusively as a stage for acting out their personal dramas and dilemmas. Others (both members and guests) who are here for the music take exception to that, and express their discontent about it. The predominantly BS Mudcatters circle the wagons whenever this happens, and they collectively attack anyone they perceive as threatening their status quo.

However, there are some music conversations happening among those who have chosen to ignore the dominant Mudcat group. This appears to be happening among the more independently inclined music afficionados who are here to exchange information about music. When the dominant Mudcat members enter these conversations, the result is often negative, because they almost immediately perceive the "outer ring" Mudcat participants as opposition. The quality of the dialog generally disintegrates quickly then, and then is reduced to the outer ring users complaining about it, and the dominant Mudcatters flaming them for mentioning it.

That, at least, is what I saw happen when Bruce Olson was driven out of Mudcat by the dominant Mudcat group.

This dominant group is so entrenched, because Max has institutionalized their power through the most significant changes in Mudcat since it's inception: introduction of the BS threads, and the creation of a Mudcat elite through the creation of two-tier posting.

It isn't going to change, unless Max does something to change it. Since he has said repeatedly that he won't, I think its time to bid adieu to Mudcat as forum which supports the on-line music community. It doesn't. It supports the needs, wants, and desires of a dysfunctional social life of a handful of regulars.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:10 AM

Guest, I'm not really that worried and I'll just carry on doing whatever I do. As for my offer: Although I would have honoured it, suffice it to say, it served it's purpose - I was pretty sure of the outcome before I started.

Jon

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:26 AM

Everyone always carries on however they wish.

But when people become more attached to the BS than to the music in a music forum, you can pretty much tell which way the forum is headed. Anyone who would really be worried about what happens in an on-line discussion forum is already way too emotionally invested in it to be healthy.

It might take another year or two for Mudcat to sink into oblivion. But as a veteran of both music and non-music forums for a long time, I see all the harbingers of this forum burning out and fading away, despite recent heroic efforts to save it by the Mudcat regulars. (Usually that can be taken as one of the signs of overall unease that drives the group onto the rocks).

Those most heavily invested in maintaining Mudcat as their dysfunctional group support network will fight the longest and the hardest to keep their status quo alive, even if only on life support. Which is what seems to have been happening in recent months anyway. Eventually, this forum too will either disappear or be transformed so dramatically that it won't be recognizable to today's users.

Those current and former users who are interested in having an intellectually stimulating discussion forum will eventually leave Mudcat to find new and greener pastures for pursuing their interests, both on-line and off.

That's the way it goes, eh? No need to get one's knickers in a bundle over it.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:39 AM

Cassandra, what did you know?
You who bring bad news wherever you go
You had the gift to se4e the future
From Apollo, so it's said
And he made no-one believe you
When you would not share his bed

Oh, Cassandra, what did you see?
As you walked the lonely road of your certainty
Gazing at the ruined city
That your warnings could not save
Oh, Cassandra, so still and so grave
Oh, Cassandra.
---Al Stewart

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:15 PM

And the "Best of Thread" for Metaphoric Use of A Song Lyric goes to Mousethief!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:18 PM

This seems to be getting a bit needlessly hairy. ("You perfectly illustrate the sickness around here.") And I note that there's just been an intervention at 10.27 (13th August) which seemed clearly intended to manipulate it in that direction.

But up till now we've had a thread in the whither-Mudcat mode which seems to me to have been quite a useful one, and an overwhelmingly courteous one as well, which is useful in itself.

We've had some interesting sites for comparison, some thought-provoking posts about the way we operate. And of course a helpful suggestion and offer by Jon - which could well develop into something of value to us all. But you only made the suggestion on 11th August, Jon, and today's only 13th.

I know Mudcat time is a bit different, but even so things take a bit longer than that. (It might be a good idea for you to start up a separate thread inviting people to suggest how best to use a bit of webspace like that most effectively, to achieve the kind of things you'd like to see it achieve. This thread has gone on long enough for a lot of people to have given up opening it.)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:28 PM

Awwwww McGrath...

Did the Catters forget to put their "No dissenting points of view allowed" label in the header?

Yes, this thread was started as a Mudcat innoculation, once the "Merely Guests" thread was looking like there might be more dissenters than conformists to the dominant Mudcat dysfunctional group dynamic appearing in the thread.

The reason so many of the Mudcat dysfunctional elite have posted to the thread "civilly" is because they started the thread for the express purpose of patting each other on the back, and commenting on how lovely the Emperor's clothes look on each other. Then the minute someone enters the thread to express a dissenting point of view, there is a collective dysfunctional knee-jerk reaction to shut down the thread.

This place is so laughably predictable, it can even be entertaining, at least in small doses.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:39 PM

An "intervention"?!?!?!?!?!?

Bwwwaaahahahaha!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM

funny, I don't FEEL elite....maybe it's because I'm so dysfunctional.

Lordy, what a few pop psychology books can lead to!...and now we seem to have a 'clique' of guests (hard to tell..maybe just one VERY busy one) doing a free group analysis of our unconcious collective sociopathic dysfunctionality as manifested in knee-jerk posting patterns. (Hey..wow, a thesis topic!)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:16 PM

I'm with Art, I just like it here.

I used the DT a LONG time before I ever posted. I work in an office where no one shares my interests; and rather than be lonely 7.5 hours a day, I come here when work is slow, so I can talk to people who share my interests.

I have learned a lot here, and not just about music. Music is what brought me here in the first place.

Now...... I don't remember all that happened re Bruce Olson, but didn't it have something to do with the fact that he signed on as an intentional flamer? (I am not trying to start any trouble here,just asking a question, if I am wrong, please correct me.)

Cheers -------------------- KFC

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:23 PM

Ah--so Bruce Olson being run out of Mudcat is justified because "he signed on as an intentional flamer"?

As if Mudcat regulars don't regularly engage in flaming?

KFC, do you even know who Bruce Olson is, why some people here continue to bring up his name and the way he was treated here, etc?

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM

Yes I do know who Bruce Olson is. He gave me helpful information on a number of occasions.

I said, I was asking a question, not trying to stir up any trouble.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:46 PM

I like this site, I have met loads of really nice people through this site, and found out about local folk sessions.john

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:02 PM

Everyone, including Guest is entitled to their views on Mudcat, but to accuse us of having dysfunctional social lives- well it wouldn't stand up in court through lack of evidence would it? (Ickle-entirely satisfied with her social life just a bit of trouble fittng it in thankyou very much)

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM

The remarks by Guest are hilarious, it must be a sendup. The vast world hierarchical conspiracy. If I read this right, one group wants to restrict this site to music threads of some kind, which will have presumably have to be monitored to keep out anything that isn't directly related to music, however you decide that, I have no idea. How this is supposed to work, I don't know. Purist Folk Music Police, I guess. In the meantime, the vicious cabal who run the place (from Moscow) don't care, who knows what folk music is, but whatever interests you, go ahead, as long as you act reasonably humanely, and don't wreck the place. I can certainly see why the second group is so dangerous, and must be stopped.

This nuttiness goes on. Many of the regulars here are music people and are interested in music. They don't go into music threads to twist them to their own nefarious purposes. They start music threads! Speaking for myself, I am starting music threads all the time, and some of them go somewhere and some go nowhere. Them's the breaks.

And then there is this nonsense: This dominant group is so entrenched, because Max has institutionalized their power through the most significant changes in Mudcat since it's inception: introduction of the BS threads, and the creation of a Mudcat elite through the creation of two-tier posting. Max had nothing to do with the introduction of BS threads, they just happened. I forget who came up with the name. The idea that BS threads are institutionalized (whatever that means) is crazy: they were a gesture to separate out threads for the benefit of people who wanted music threads! I have no idea what two tier posting means -- is that where Joe says "I cleaned up this space for your benefit?" The guy who makes this place easier for everyone? Is that what you are objecting to?

Jon, your offer and the fact that it hasn't been taken up is probably due to all sorts of factors. The only one that makes immediate sense in this context is that people here don't want to be shunted somewhere else. They like being here. They like 3 ring circuses. Everyone has a selective device close to hand: click the things that might interest you, and don't click the others. There is no centre stage here, there is a weird ecology of cross-pollination. It is noisy, carny-like, in this booth you can hear the cheap organ from the next booth, and some people thrive on it, and some people don't. You want to start a thread on Songs about Asparagus, go ahead. You want to start a thread that you are having difficulty getting over griefs in the family, you go ahead. You want to start a thread on how music helps the disabled and the elderly, you go ahead. You want to start a thread on whether Snuffy Jenkins was the true founder of Bluegrass, go ahead. You want to start a thread on medieval modal tunings (I have), go ahead. BUT WILL SOMEONE TELL ME: HOW IS THIS A REPRESSIVE CONSPIRACY?????

yours in his black cloak, Peter T.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM

The Mudcat is a Wonderful place - sometimes frisky, sometimes informative, other times slack or boring. That is what happens in real life!
I have been visiting the 'Cat for about 18 Months, and have never been able to see any evidence of this mythical Inner Clique referred to by some people. Failing to see any evidence I assume that it is a myth created by someone with a grudge against some other individual or individuals - Also something found in real life. I have heard the self same accusations about Folk Clubs, Dance Teams, Pubs, Sporting Supporters Clubs, The Campaign for Real Ale, You name it - the same mud will have been thrown by somebody. In many Real World situations I have witnessed, the accusation has comes from somebody who would like to form an inner clique, but others are not interested in joining it!
Certain members and named guests have specific criticisms of the way the Mudcat happens - they are entitled to these - some I would agree with, others perhaps not and in some cases I do not have experiences which would allow me to make a valid comment. I would view a gathering of clones who blindly agreed with each other, or Yes Men who only followed a Leader as not a place for me!
At its worst the mudcat can be tedious, uninspired and petty. At its best it is inspiring, technical queries are answered within seconds of posting, the information you receive is so far beyond what you thought that you had requested that it is overwhelming. Certain individuals can be abrasive, impolite and occasionally downright nasty - (sometimes with good reason). At other times the same individuals may be courteous, amusing and incredibly heplful. We all have good days and bad days, people we like and others we cannot stand to be in the same room with. This again reminds me of real life!
There are vicious nasty thugs who hide away and do the cyber equivalent of smearing our doors with excreta - just like vandals in the real world.
I originally arrived at the site because of the Digital Tradition. When I started to also read the threads, I was intrigued. It took some time to work out what the BS prefix referred to. I now see it as an extremely astute solution to the problem of separating technical queries from the idle chit-chat which many Mudcatters see as an important reason to visit at all. I enjoy taking part in threads about banjo playing, obscure instruments, ethnic customs (European / Asian / North American etc.) I am interested in reading the erudite discussions on origin of songs/tunes. I am fascinated by the depth of knowledge and talent shown by contributors, both regulars and more occasional visitors. - When none of the threads offers this kind of interest I can join in with the Bullshit to pass the time until another interesting thread appears.
If it wasn't for the BS threads I would spend less time at the Mudcat, and would as a result have missed out on some of the more intersting SERIOUS threads.
The Mudcat is to some extent what you make it for yourself. You can pick and choose the parts which interest you. You can decide who to join in with and who to avoid. You can even be a disruptive Troll or Flamer, much as I personally abhor such antisocial behaviour, as it is purely intended to spoil things for everyone else, and I do not think that is fair treatment of us!
Some of the people who have contributed to this thread see a community - I am one of them, and am happy to take part in it. Others do not see a community - that is their privilege and opinion. Some posters obviously believe that a community exists, and go to extreme lengths to attempt to sabotage that community.
It all seems to me very similar to the Real World, and why on earth should I expect it to be different? I have made new friends through the Mudcat. I have renewed acquaintanceship with people who I had lost touch with in the Land of 3D years back! I expect to chance across people who I like, Ones I dislike and ones who pass by without making any impression either way!
I am part of a community! It is my gain. Quack!
Geoff the Duck!

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

THANK YOU, PETER T!

Jon, so nice that you have already decided you knew the outcome, when you didn't even respond to my posting. Have you heard from Susan? She is on vacation, as I said, yet you will only allow two days for her to respond? If you already knew the outcome why did you offer? Are you back to trying to prove a point with smug "I told you so's?"

Bruce Olsen is gone because he deliberately flamed consistently over and over and failed to coerce anyone to join him in his exclusive view of what Mudcat should be.

Harsh as it may seem, I am reminded of a friend who grew up in Kansas. At the town limits, there was a sign which said "N***er don't let the sun set on your ass in this town." I suppose Bruce and GUEST would like to have a similar sign at Mudcat, "Amateur folk music lovers need not enter."

For any of you who doubt that I do anything to do with music, take a look at the past week. I've alphabetised and posted the list of the stories behind the songs that george Seto started in Origins: Found on the Mudcat; I've helped translate words in an Ian Tyson song; I've posted the words to a song InOBU was looking for; and, my posts are the three on the Songs You Have posted II thread, as well as more.

The GUEST in this thread has been very duplicitious and a master at manipulation...it goes along with being ultra-paranoid and fear-filled.

kat

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:31 PM

Besides that, what proof is there that Bruce really is gone? Judging by his actions just before he "left" in a pile of flames, I would bet he lurks and may even still be the voice of some disgruntled Guests.

Subject: RE: This site is NOT like all the rest.
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 03:36 PM

Beware -- Long-winded dissertation!!

Since the very early Fifties I've been to more hootenannies and songfests than I can count. The vast majority of these were in private homes. We would sit around in someone's living room and sing, sometimes solo, sometimes all together. Sometimes we'd follow a theme, everybody trying to come up with a mountain murder ballad or a pirate song (challenges to memory and repertoire), but usually it was whatever song happened to pop into someone's mind at the time. All spontaneous, nothing planned. On one occasion, we got going on What Shall We Do with a Drunken Sailor? and people started making up verses. The damned thing went on for over half an hour, and each new verse was raunchier than the last. Songs were often interspersed with jokes, quips, information about a particular song, brief (or not-so-brief) narrations, or bursts of pure silliness. Nothing stuffy, nothing structured -- lots of laughing and lots of quiet and appreciative listening. For a good fifteen years or so, these often spontaneously organized and strictly informal gatherings occurred almost every weekend. The gatherings are still going on. They just don't happen as frequently as they did back then and because we're older and have more responsibilities now, they're generally planned ahead of time. All-in-all, it's about the best way I can think of to spend an evening.

It was not uncommon for some people to gather in the kitchen and talk among themselves. It might be gossip, it might be politics, it might be swapping knock-knock jokes -- and more than one personal crisis found its way to the kitchen, with people there offering sympathy or advice. The kitchen crowd and the living-room crowd were fluid. Often someone would come out of the kitchen to listen to the singing, and someone in the living-room would set aside his or her guitar or banjo and head out into the kitchen to take a break, pick up a fresh beer, rummage through the cheese dip, and see what was going on.

Sometimes it was wall-to-wall people in the living room, nobody in the kitchen (except the cat, having its way with the cheese dip). Sometimes almost everybody was in the kitchen, with just two people in the living room, seriously and studiously comparing versions of a particular Child ballad (and sometimes yelling, "Hey, can you keep it down out there!!?").

There was a bunch of real hard-core musicians, and there were people whose interest in folk music was only casual. And all points between. People who were not at all interested in folk music either didn't come or didn't stay very long.

Were we a "clique" or an "in-group?" Well, yeah, I guess so. I suppose some people who were so inclined could accuse us of that. But most of us had known each other for a long time -- we were close friends. But any new person who walked in was welcome. A singer from out of town was always welcome. Someone who didn't play or sing but liked the music was always welcome. A beginner with a new instrument and a repertoire of two or three songs was usually treated like a new convert, with everyone offering help and advice and giving them an opportunity to try their newly-learned songs (with encouragement, no matter how inept. "Give her time. Remember when you first started."). And if a newcomer didn't know the customs of the natives, they might be admonished politely not to talk while someone is in the middle of a song or something like that, but then that's how one learns the mores of the tribe. If someone (be it newcomer or old-timer) were rude and unruly, they would probably be asked to leave. This happened rarely, but it did happen a couple of times.

The parallels are obvious.

Offhand, I can't recall ever hearing the word "dysfunctional" at any of these gatherings. If the word did apply to anyone there (and I'm quite sure that it applied to a few), it was unlikely that it had nothing to do with the rest of us.

Were we all -- the whole bunch of us -- dysfunctional? Believe me, there were a lot of people who thought so! But I can live with that.

Don Firth