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BS: Get Out of Iraq Now!
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Once Famous Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM This just makes you feel like it's thre 60s again, don't it? It won't make you grow your hair back. You had your chance to raise your voice in protest. 51% said yes 48% said no. Again, the election is over. Get over it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Frank Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:29 PM Actually, that's not necessarilly true. Information is coming out now that reveals that this election was hacked. We really don't know the truth and it's not yet being reported on the evening news. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Amos Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:44 PM The Iraqui people would be dogmeat if we weren't there fighting for them to have a democracy. They just don't get it. This is just chauvinistic drivel. Who would be making them in to dogmeat? The majority of people in Iraq were living subdued, frightened, but relatively peaceful lives before Bush's invasion. You think they would be under attack by insurgents without an occupying force? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM Had the election been decided by intellegent people and real issues, rather than emotional people and bogus issues, then it would not have been close enough for Diebold and other Repub voting machine comapanies to steal it, which they did... And, Frank. Keep in mind there are more GUESTS than one. I am familiar with one GUEST's writings and heart who has contributed to this thread and this GUEST has been consistent going back to the run up to the war... And Dougie. What Little Hawk said. If democracy was such an important thing to the neocons they'd show a little respect for it here at home. Yeah, support the troops. Withdraw them immedicately. Sure some Iraqis will suffer if this happens but more will suffer if it doesn't. There's nothin' unAmerican about this stand either. Every excuse that Bush has gone before the American people with has turned out to be either a lie or has been fulfilled. He can't just keep coming up with new excuses. Get out NOW! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:48 PM I still have my hair, Martin. You may recall that the Lakota were generous enough to leave Custer his after Little Big Horn. Not that he really deserved it... (The women drove knitting needles in his ears after the battle to open them up, though, because he had apparently not heard the Lakota when they warned him some years before not to lie to them about treaties which proved to be worth less than the paper they were written on.) Your goverment is a thief and a murderer. That is no reflection upon you. I understand that, and I note the difference. My judgement is not cast upon you or Doug or other such ordinary people, it's upon your leaders who have lied to you over and over again and are still lying to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Peace Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:57 PM Separate in our minds the following: Politicians Soldiers Soldier: one who trains to perform a job--specifically, to bring death and destruction to a given enemy. Politician: one who chooses the enemy on behalf of the soldiers. That's the way it works in America, folks. Do you think that politicians running a hot war is good for the guys at the sharp end? This is fu#kin' Vietnam all over again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,US Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:00 PM Hooded and robed Guest propagandist: You have information from inside Falluja? Howcome? Frank: Information coming out of your ass? Ever heard of the "Oil For Food Scandal? The terrorists do not represent the Iraqi people. They represent outside interests. Limey son of a bitch: First you arrogant assholes tried to sway the American election. You fucked that up and now you com crying and sucking snot on behalf of the terrorists in Iraq, another fuck up. You are an unwitting participant in the head game terrorists play on the rest of the world. What else would you expect from a nation of Elton's and Boy Georges? All of you war protesters can soak yourself in gasoline and set yourself on fire in protest. We will have a weenie roast. Uncle Sam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Frank Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:08 PM Uncle Sam? I don't think so. Sounds more like an oppressor to me. Most of the people who cry "terrorist" wouldn't know one if they saw one. It's a hate card they play and a fear game they thrive on. Red Alert! Time to duck! Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM Ahhhhh, yo Uncle Sam... You have an operational definition for what a 'terrorist" is? And, Question #2. Lets say that another country invaded the US and had surrounded your town. What would you do? Now if you say defend yourself then you might want to rethink your first response to the "Waht is a terrorist" question. If you say that you wouldn't defend yourself, then maybe you ain't all that gruff and tough as you would like folks to believe here by the tone of your postings. And I'll repeat that democragy doesn't come from the barrel of a gun and this odd-ball "freedom" that Don Rumsfeld and George Bush talk about for the Iraqi people ain't gonna come from the barrels of US guns. Terribly flawed logic... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:29 PM Uncle Sam you illustrate all that is unwell in the US army. And even though you may be in a minority with your thoughts, people like you tend to shout louder. And sometimes it is the only point of view we hear. You are a sorry spokesperson for your country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Uncle Sam Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:37 PM Self made intellectuals of "superior Inteligence" that fall prey to propaganda and stand in the way of freedom = terrorists supporter. Got your gasoline and matches? Make a real statement to the world. "Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged." Abe Lincoln, the evil Republican that ended slavery in the US. Uncle Sam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM ...But lesser known as a man who for political purpose pushed the country into a war against itself. The slavery issue was no more than a sideshow that plsyed well into the hands of the revisonist historians. As fir the gas and match suggestion, Tom Jefferson would probably think America better off if you'd try the cure on yourself first. Your hero, George Bush and his friends were dead wrong in attacking Iraq and even deader wrong on continuing the occupation and continued destruction of Iraq and its people. Bobert p.s. And if this Uncle Sam is you, L.Hawk? Bad, bad, bad.... Must be nuthin' happening in the neighborhood of interest... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: dianavan Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:34 PM The best remark on this thread was if the Bush administration really cared about democracy, they'd be doing a better job at home. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:47 PM Good God, no, Bobert! "Uncle Sam" or "US" or whoever the hell it is, is not me trying to parody the quintessential "ugly American"...although he might sound like such a parody. I think it's someone who is actually serious. His words should serve as a further warning to people of just how dangerous the American administration is in the World today, when it's got people like that backing it. If I had the power, I'd put the fool in the front lines right where the fighting is the thickest, since blood is obviously what he wants and thirsts for. Best he should get a chance to see what it's like firsthand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:03 PM Well, my apologies, L. Hawk... Or compliments? Ain't too sure which... Sam's stuff is so over the top comic bookish that, sniff, yeah, you did some to mind. I know there's this playfull, shall we say, side of you and of all the folks I know who could pull Sam off, well, you did come to mind... Like I said, my apologies... Sniff... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: jaze Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:04 PM Martin, surely you mean "forcing" them to have a demcoracy. They never asked us for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: dianavan Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:12 PM jaze - You are spot on! Democracy is something that grows from within a nation. It is not something you can impose on a nation. I do not remember Iraq asking for help, either. Yes, Saddam was hated. The U.S. is hated even more. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:14 PM "Either be free and democratic 'er we'll kill you!!!! Heck, we jus' kill you anyway..." Donnie Rumsfeld |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,US Date: 08 Nov 04 - 09:16 PM Little Hawk should be there on the front lines too. On the terrorist side so he can really see who he is rooting for. Terrorists are not dangerous. It is the Administration that is dangerous. Uncle Sam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Peace Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:10 AM One of the difficulties in Iraq is that the US has never 'defined' victory. It has left its troops hanging. The guys in the field have to keep wondering, "Is THIS victory?" Or, "Is this victory?" "How 'bout THIS?" Tough spot to put a soldier in, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: DougR Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:31 AM Hey! Amos has recovered! Hooray! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Amos Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:33 AM Terrorists are dangerous enough, US, no mistake. Three thousand office workers can't be wrong. How about we go after them, rather than the dildo playing with bombs in Iraq who weren't terrorists until after the invasion? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Boab Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:47 AM Ah, Doug R. and M.G.---read the posts of the one other who seems to share your adamant views. Is this after all the level of your intellect and morality? We all thought you were kidding---- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Amergin Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:57 AM Doug, I do not give a shit what happens to those Iraqi people. I just care for my brother and others like him to come home. Since you are so gung ho for it, how about we send YOUR kids over? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Ellenpoly Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:24 AM Glad to see you back in the fray, Amos! ;-D ..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Amos Date: 09 Nov 04 - 02:42 AM "Let us, if we can, step back from the shadows of war and seek out the way of peace. And if that journey is one thousand miles, or even more, let history record that we, in this land, at this time, took the first step." -John F. Kennedyon concluding the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty between the USA, the UK, and the USSR(11) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,US Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:17 AM "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty." President John F. Kennedy, 20 January 1961 "An attempt by an outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force." President Jimmy Carter 23 January 1980 Uncle Sam |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:24 AM Those presidents have great political writers, don't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM I would feel better if I could believe Uncle Sam was just a clever parody. However, Mudcat parodies are not so consistent and so deep in my heart I start feeling he means what he says and too many people think alike in the USA. Well, once the USA was looked upon with admiration around the world for several values like freedom, democracy and several other ideals which were deplorably scarce in the world outside of the USA. Now we look with admiration (on a technical level) at the weapons arsenal. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: DougR Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:08 PM Martin, I agree with you. They just don't get it. Amos refers to it as chauvinistic drivel. Tell that to the relatives of the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis Saddam placed in mass graves. Yes, Martin, you are right. They just don't get it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM My impression is, Doug, that the USA and Britain have killed far more Iraqis than Saddam. Further to that, they both supported and armed Saddam while he was killing Iraqis...until they didn't need him to kill Iranians anymore. Britain was killing Iraqis wholesale in the 20's and 30's too. The USA is a latecomer to the dirty game of empire. The Iraqis know this. The USA and Britain are far greater enemies of the Iraqi people than even Saddam could ever have managed to be, and he was one of their former employees and hit men. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Frank Date: 09 Nov 04 - 05:55 PM Uncle S. " The terrorists do not represent the Iraqi people. They represent outside interests" Prove it. The "terrorists" are whoever Bush declares them to be. Outside interests are the Bush Adminstration. They know how to make people salivate like Pavlov's dog. Just raise the colored alert. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,a american Date: 09 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM uncle sam your a great american we need to kill every damn one of those sand niggers and to hell with the muslim dogs , if it was me as president id kick every arab person in america out of the us and take all of thier money they have here. i would drop the big 30 ton bombs on irag and be done with the problem, this war needs to be fought and you democrats can just suck air cause yall lost the election. if bush says they are a terrorist then by damn they are a terrorist . with the P.L.O. all in france i would send a hit team to wipe them all out i would blow up every muslim church in fullisah ,zarcowie should be dead . all muslims are girls uncle sam your tha man |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Peace Date: 09 Nov 04 - 06:42 PM And we have just heard from an illiterate individual who likely belongs to a hate group. Oh, joy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:12 PM MMmmmm using 'girls' as an insult rings a bell? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:20 PM brucie, You posed an interesting question earlier when you asked what would define victory for the US. The problem is that it would appear that the definition keeps, for some reason, changing as the Bush keep changing the reasons for the invasion. Okay, a little review: 1. WMD............... Well, since Iraq doesn't appear to have any then we should just say, "We Win" and, ahhhh, leave... 2. Links to Al Quida.............. Well, this has also been disproven so we should just say "We Win" and leave... 3. Mushroom clouds over American cities............. Well, that rurned out to also be false so we should just say "We Win" and leave... There, those were the first batch of reasons and the reasonable thing would have been to, ahhhh, you guessed it, say We win" and leave... But no, Bush didn't want to leave after the initial reason for going to war were set aside so he came up with a "new and improved" reason to invade Iraq: 4. Saddam is a bad man................. Fine, Saddam is a bad man but now he is caught so he can't do nay more bad stuff so we should just say "We Win" and leave... But, no, we didn't leave. Hmmmmmmm? What will they think of next? 5. Okay, no WMD's? No mushroom clouds? No Al Quida connection? No more Saddam? Hmmmmmm? Okay, give me a minute.... Ahhhh, Democracy! Yes, sweet, sweet democracy!!! Yes, yes! That's will represent that elusive victory, fir sure. The problem is that the Bush folks don't think much of democracy. They think it to be a pain in the butt. So, ahhhhh, why would they want to try to impose a failed sysytem of governemnt on a population that is ready to break into a civil war the day the US troops leave? See, there really is no "end game" here. The Bush folks will keep changing the story just as they have over the last two years. There will not be a victory in Iraq. They had their chances to claim victory and leave. Now they shown they have no intention of leaving Iraq for any reason other than total military defeat by the insurgents of th re US military, which won't happen anymore than a creation of a working democracy in Iraq... How do you spell "liars"? Too easy? Try "quagmire"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: akenaton Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM Much as American foreign policy disgusts me, and there is no doubt in my mind that the American people have just given a mandate to an extreme fascist regime,we should remember that the real tragedy lies with the Iraqi people. One news bulletin tonight from Fallujah states that the streets are littered with civilian corpses. This does not surprise me, given the massive firepower available to the Americans. On an earlier piece of video, I saw American troops demolishing buildings with cannon fire,from a range of what looked like 500mtrs. How could they possibly safeguard civilian lives using such tactics? Im sure there is however alot of truth in the theory that the ordinary people just want to be left in peace, not just by the invaders, but by all the religious fanatics who attract the American bullets and bombs. It seems to me that the Iraqi people are to become like the Palistinians, sacrificed on the alter of Western greed ,and the Mullahs' thirst for power....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Peace Date: 09 Nov 04 - 07:58 PM Bobert, Thanks for mentioning. That's the problem I see that the troops face. Another CF involving a screwed-up civilian leadership sending kids in to perform an ill-defined task. That turns soldiers into cannon fodder. This is the same damn thing that happened in Vietnam. It wasn't funny then and it isn't funny now. And yes, I do feel for the Iraqis who are getting torn up and killed in this bloody mess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Ellenpoly Date: 10 Nov 04 - 04:32 AM http://www.labournet.net/other/0411/usmil1.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:51 AM When we pulled out of Viet Nam 2 million Cambodians were killed, but nobody really really cares about that (except Little Hawk) If we pulled out of Iraq millions more would be killed in civil wars are by terrorists or by Turkey (in the north) invading the Kurks. None of you care about that either (except Little Hawk) I don't want American lives being lost either. That is why I support getting out of Iraq and then nuking Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan. No american lives are lost, and terrorist are killed. A very modest proposal indeed. And we get out of Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: GUEST,Boab Date: 10 Nov 04 - 07:56 PM No---I don't think that Iraq should be left to its own devices right now. The necessity for a military presence has arisen in the first place, however, because of hamhanded unilateral action on the part of the United States of America, [Coalition? --Don't gimme that! The US and a retinue of creeps with Tony Blair at the head of the queue.]And may I suggest to Martin G. that the U.N. got NO chance from Busb-Blair and co. If you are capable of being honest at all, you will agree that the US --both right and out-of-sight-right parties ---have no intention of ever using the UN as anything other than a tool for US convenience. Something like NATO in fact. The "coalition" attacked Iraq because of oil. Oil.OIL. Not because of the WMDs they hoped the Iraqis had. Not because of the despotic rule of their erstwhile friend Hussein. Because of oil, and the control of the oilfields. Why d'ye think the US bases are being withdrawn from Saudi? ---Because they haven't the slightest intention of "bringing the troops home" from Iraq. The US army is there for a long, long, time. That's where the new bases are being built. They see a future that guarantees oil supply, that ensures profits for their corporations, and that guarantees a powerful Mideast friend in the State of Israel. They have miscalculated the will of the Iraqi people, and are paying in lives and fiscal chaos now, and will do so for a long time to come. Withdrawing now would leave utter chaos and lives would be lost in the local struggle for power. But in the end [and a lot more quickly than under an unwanted occupation] outside help would be welcomed, and the people would get their lives, and their resources, returned to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: DougR Date: 10 Nov 04 - 09:48 PM L.H.: what are you smoking? The U. S. and Great Britain have killed more Iraqis than Saddam? Surely you jest. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Bobert Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:04 PM Actually, Dougie... I think that Little Hawk is probably close to being correct. The estimates of 100,000 dead from the invasion plus upwards of 500,000 from the sanctions probably gets US in the same league as Saddam.... GUEST, Boab... You are correct about this invasion and subsequent occupation is very much about oil. When the World Bank and I.M.F. fail to secure other folks resources thru their loan sharking, and the CIA is not able to bring about a coup or mysterious death, then it gets turned over to folks like Donnie Rumsfeld.... The US ***IS*** going to have its OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:09 PM Bobert, You blame the US for the ones that died because Saddam chose to build palaces rather than buy food or medicine? YOU are sick! And the "100,00" from the invasion includes those killed by the Iraqis and foreign fighters. I think you might allow some blame for the ones blowing up civilians and police... AND WHERE IS THE OIL YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT? I do not see that the US has "CONTROL" over the oil- it is costing us a lot more to be there than any amount of oil we could be pumping out- and the oil being pumped is being sold by the Iraqis. So either give us some information about the oil, or stop using it as a reason we are in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Peace Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:23 PM Interesting article. USATODAY.com - The world has lost Iraq's oil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:28 PM http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_oil2.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: dianavan Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:06 AM Oh, now I get it! Iraq will have to sell their oil to Bush so that they can re-pay Halliburton for repairing their infrastructure. Such a deal. Doesn't sound like the Persian discount is going to do the Iraqi's much good. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:20 AM No, dianavan, Iraq will sell their oil to whoever gives them the best price. Sorry if this bursts your illusions. Try reading the post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: Peace Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:28 AM The rate things are going, the States will need its troops to establish democracy in the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Get Out of Iraq Now! From: dianavan Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:39 AM I did read the post. Thats where I read the part about selling their oil to re-build their infrastructure. Such a deal! d |
