BS: Window World - scam?

Subject: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 05:55 PM

Kendall and Jacqui and I just went through the most frustrating experience which ended only when we threatened cancellation and a lawsuit.

In May, we both had our homes measured for new windows (3 each) by Window World of Portsmouth, NH. This is a nationally franchised company with about a hundred offices in the US. The salesman said that six weeks lead time was required for special orders and our windows would be installed once they came into their warehouse. That was mid-May. In six weeks we were called to arrange installation.

Jacqui had explained to the salesman that she had family arriving from the UK in July and the windows had to be in before then.

The first appointment for installation was cancelled because they "had overbooked." The second, a week later, was cancelled because an installer's child fell down stairs and may or may not have been injured. A message was left saying they would try to come on the 17th. Kendall had an out of state appointment so the 17th was not acceptable.

They had $600+ in deposits from each of us for close to two months and I began to suspect that there were no windows. Kendall felt the same. On Friday, we agreed that they could come Saturday but had to be out of my hair early because I was hosting a house concert. Late Friday (we called them because they did not get back to us to confirm as promised ) we were told Saturday was off but Monday was definite (from the salesman) was a maybe from the scheduler. We had made it clear that the windows would be installed on Monday or the order cancelled.

Monday, Skip (?) the production manager called and said that they couldn't get in touch with the installer whose son had fallen and so we were not getting our windows. What the hell?????

I asked if they had only one installer and he made the mistake of raising his voice, speaking like an angry school teacher and saying "We don't even know if this child is alive." Do not raise your voice to me...

Since I had been bumped two weeks earlier when they had "overbooked" I suggested that I was not unreasonable to suggest that someone else get bumped back a week this time. As I tried to speak Ole Skip interrupted and said "That isn't what I said..." at that point I cut him off, announced that he WOULD LET ME FINISH and made it clear that the windows would be installed today or not at all.

He sighed and said he would call the Morses and then call me back. Heh heh he called Kendall.

So they miraculously found the windows which the installer with the injured son supposedly had and whom no one could contact even by cell phone. We have our new windows. The installer mentioned that he heard that the original installer had fallen. I said I heard a different story about his son falling and he stopped discussing it.

The young men who did the actual work were neat and efficient, polite, worked quickly, cleaned up after themselves. I will give Window World that.

But between the run around and the misrepresentation of the product (I was told the Warranty was lifetime and transferable. It is not. I was told that damage from storms fire even a kid's baseball was covered. It is not),where did they get the nerve to ask if they could use me as a referral when advertising in the neighborhood? I should have said "Yes".

Had we not threatened to cancel and seek legal recourse, we would probably still be waiting in December for new windows. The installer told me that he was supposed to be doing a big job today replacing all the windows in a building. Had they told us that small orders were done on hit or miss basis, we would not have agreed to the terms. Plus, to make their lives easier, Jacqui and I coordinated four different dates, cancelled appointments, and arranged to be home so they could do both houses in one day.

Rant over. Anyone else use Window World?

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 06:02 PM

Now I find a list of complaints about them in a GOOGLE search. Apparently they make a habit of no-shows sometimes without even calling to cancel.

http://www.google.com/search?q=window+world+complaints&revid=1127270857&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=3

Run far and fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 06:13 PM

You should have checked, and still should call, the local Better Business Bureau.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 06:23 PM

We did and we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 07:22 PM

No but we had a similar experience with a kitchen firm called Kirkplan. We're still waiting for them, 10 years on, to come back and finish the sealing around the back of one unit after being put off 3 times, the job taking 5 days instead of 3, having to store the parts ourselves for a week (couldn't leave them outside, they'd be nicked), waiting another 2 days before starting because half of it had been delivered to the wrong house, having the fitter 'nip off' for something halfway through the day to go and 'just finish a job I started last week'.... and charge us an astronomical price for it all. To add insult to injury, one unit sticks out a couple of inches over the door frame (guess we were lucky it opens outwards) and the oven is a cantankerous piece of crap that bakes one side only or burns the lot.

They appeared on a consumer TV programme 'Watchdog' shortly after they didn't finish our kitchen. It seems we got off quite lightly, in that we actually got a kitchen fitted!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: GUEST,jacqui.c in Albany
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:01 PM

Kendall has already reported them to the Attorney General in New Hampshire and we will be doing the same for Maine, as well as letting the Better Business Bureau know what has happened.

The windows are fine and the installers were great - no problems there, but the sales and admin side stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:12 PM

It sounds like a perfect outfit to be satirized in one of those old Bill Murray movies where he plays some sleazy, dishonest jerk in a business suit. He would play the part of Window World's Vice President in charge of Sales, Administration, and Public Relations. I can just see it now...

"Put your windows in before September 1st, Mrs Foster? Nooooooo problemo. We'll be there." (turning to feel up buxom secretary while she brings his coffee, and contemplating the expensive vacation tickets he has just bought for that Bahamas trip purchased with customer advances...)

(smiling) "You can count on Window World."

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:16 PM

Even the name of the company sounds sleazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:19 PM

Thought this thread was about Microsoft . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:26 PM

I had a similar problem with the spatulas I ordered from Spatula World. Oh, the spatulas arrived on time and in good shape, but I'm still waiting for the free "Getting the MOST From Your Spatula!" DVD.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:28 PM

Have you tried inserting it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:43 PM

We bought 20 windows from Home Depot for the women's center where I do volunteer maintenance work, and they were very nice. We had a couple that didn't match the measurements we submitted, and they replaced them with no hassle. The windows are dual-pane glass with a hardly-visible tint that really cuts down on the heat of the sun. It wasn't too hard to install them.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 08:45 PM

Good stuff, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 10:39 PM

We bought an almost full kit of windows from Window Wizards, following the reference of the carpenter who does lots of work for us (really old house). The windows were delivered on time, fitted quite nicely, and one problem was replaced with a friendly attitude.
Today the house is quieter, and our heating bill was way down this past winter.
Would gladly recco these guys and would buy from them again without any fears.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 10:39 PM

Of the chain home building hardware, etc., stores here in western Canada, Home Depot is the only one where one can get decent advice from the employees. Yes, there are small outfits that are good, but only the one among the big chains. Since Joe gave them a pat on the back, I thought I would too.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 12:02 AM

Rachael's next door neighbor bought a sun room from Champion Windows.

We popped by to see how they were doing and they were sitting in the sun room in a pool of water and her neighbor was crying her eyes out.

They had built the sun room on the side of a hill without taking into account the fact that water runs down hill.

I drew up plans for a new sun room and told her to call them and tell them to come and fix it within 30 days or she would get somebody else (me) to build her sun room.

They bitched a bit and said that the plans were not drawn by a registered engineer, so she got her engineer to sign the drawings.

Well, they came out ripped out the whole lot and installed her a new sun room to my plans. Sometimes you've just gotta be tough with these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 12:09 AM

Good for you, Bert!!

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 04:22 AM

I was advised years ago by a good friend, builder and folk singer that window and double glazing companies are generaly not the best bet. If you know a good builder they can generaly measure, order and install any made to measure windows better and cheaper than the big chains. Took his advice, got him to do the job and it has always worked fine.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 04:29 AM

I am a bit surprised since whenever I have visited the USA - bad service sticks out like a sore thumb.

I also live in Spain and service there (despite this idea of a "manana culture" is first -class. Except government offices and banks.

Don't use "Solbank"!!

Best regards,



Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: jonm
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:07 AM

I agree with Dave Polshaw. When our extension was being done, we asked the builder to recommend someone for the windows which needed doing on the rest of the house to match the extension. He quoted us himself, and suggested we also get two window firms to quote. His was so reasonable by comparison we had two new doors out of it!

Always use local tradespeople if you can, it keeps them in business, they'll be handy for problems or remedial work and they live by their reputation. The big companies promise the Earth with no intention of fulfilling any of the hype.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:29 AM

Dave Polshaw and jonm are dead right - a local joiner is what you need. I see the chap who made my windows at least once a week and have had no hesitation in recommending him to plenty of people nearby. In turn, he's brought some business my way over the past few years.
He did a superb job recreating Victorian box sashes and they cost me half what one of the impersonal chains would have charged.
Stay local, and keep proper craftsmen working!

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 08:22 AM

My late wife worked for Home Depot, dealing with roofs, siding and windows. She would never recommend them. They're overpriced and poor on service. This was the Maryland office.

Remember, no matter who sells you the stuff, they contract out the actual installation. You might be better off dealing directly with a small contractor to reduce the number of layers and profit-takers.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:44 AM

We put in triple pane windows on part of our house a year or so ago, with an outfit called Thermal Window and Siding here in Indianapolis. The manufacturer of the actual windows, as I recall, was Heritage Window.

The personal relations and service from Thermal Window were excellent, but I can't say much for Heritage Window. A sliding door, as ordered, was a nonstandard width, and the factory sent their standard size--TWICE! I saw a copy of Thermal's order to the factory, and it was explicit as to what was needed, and it was sent to Heritage's custom fabrication facility, as it should have been.

When we finally got the sliding door and the job was finished, we were highly pleased with what we finally had, though not with the unnecessary delays.

But that's not the end of the story.

A workman for a tile installer slipped and tore the screen for that same sliding door, and of course readily agreed to arrange for replacement of the sliding door screen. They placed an order for the replacement with Thermal, who sent it to Heritage, and guess what? Again, someone evidently didn't read the order, and TWICE sent the standard size.

Finally, Thermal Window, through whom the screen replacement order was placed, did what should have been done in the first place: Had someone put fresh screen in the original screen frame. End (I think) of the story.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:30 PM

Actually, I did contact a local firm who sent out an estimator. She measured the windows and said that she would get back to us with a quote. Over two months later we're still waiting for the quote - I can't imagine how long it would have teken them to do the installation! This same company, A-Best, wanted Mary to take time off work for their estimator to visit - they didn't do evenings or weekends!

Sometimes you just can't win!

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 06:35 PM

Keep shopping at Home Depot, gang- a good portion of your dollars will go to support the neo-con Republican political agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 08:05 PM

Today, I got my order for two tires for the old Ford, and they were made in CHINA!
I try to buy American, but it is getting harder and harder to find anything made in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 09:14 PM

All they make now in the USA is BS...

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM

Yeah, but its the BEST BS in the World!

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 07:31 PM

... well, that's what the US advertising industry has convinced the US market...

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 10:54 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, Foolestroupe, but doesn't Mudcat originate in the US? The product of of a great deal of thought and effort by an American citizen named Max?
I really am offended by your comments.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 05:43 AM

"All they make now in the USA is BS..."
"Yeah, but its the BEST BS in the World!"
"well, that's what the US advertising industry has convinced the US market..."
"I really am offended by your comments."

Glad to be of help...

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 07:59 AM

Try to rise above such comments, Sinsull. It shouldn't be too hard. (If you get my drift) Some people love the sound of their own keyboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: ranger1
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 09:41 AM

Now Foolestroupe, didn't I send you a lovely care package for Christmas with a bunch of locally made goodies from the US? Is that any way to take about the lovely gifts your secret santa sent?

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 10:39 AM

Thanks, Kendall. I have risen.
S

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 11:28 AM

Certain individuals who live in the USA (including my relatives) are great people.

The perception of the emergent behaviour of a larger group - such as the the 'country' - by those external to that 'country' may be at odds with the perceived behaviour of various individuals of that 'country' - I do not 'tar them all with the same brush'.

In the same way as some Americans seem to be unable to seperate ideas from the individuals who express them in a 'debate', you would misunderstand me.

Americans make a big fuss about 'freedom of speech' - unless it is someone else... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 11:52 AM

Freedom of speech does not give anyone the right to insult anyone else in public.And, it certainly doesn't give anyone the right to make the kind of broad axe statement you made.

When I was much younger, I made a statement that I have forgotten, but it was a general statement. My wife, at the time, said, "Yes, and all Indians walk single file."
I said "What? What has that to do with anything." She replied, "Well, I saw an Indian once, and he was walking single file."
She couldn't have gotten my attention quicker if she had slapped me.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 12:09 PM

Since you wish to not understand ... fine then...

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 12:39 PM

And since you do not wish to understand, fine then.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 03:38 PM

All they make now in the USA is bullshit. (Foolstroup)

Ok, Robin, explain. Maybe we missed something.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:35 AM

Well, if you insist on taking retorts out of context, I apologise.

If you want to be personally insulted at anything I say, I apologise.

Sit back and let me tell you a tale...

Many decades ago a bright young God fearing lad was upset that Uncle Sam was destroying his way of life. In an attempt to help him be more positive towards the USA, he was generously given a 'scholarship' to live among the people he feared. Once nice evening, he went to a High School Dance - and was disgusted at the immoral behaviour of the women who shamelessly flaunted their naked flesh in public, and danced so close to the the depraved young men that their bodies even touched -1940/50s fashion we are talking...

He went home a changed man, and got involved in political activity (which included protesting about Uncle Sam) in his homeland. Eventually he ended up in Jail, where he was roundly entertained by torturers trained by Uncle Sam's CIA. Sadly, this only forced the poor lad into even more deluded perceptions of the total evilness of the USA.

He met a few like minded God fearing friends, and to cut a long story short.. 911... Iraq...


Vance Packard wrote many decades ago about wonderful US BS ideas like 'planned obselesence' and other clever monay making schemes, since long exported to the rest of the world...

I could go on (and I can hear you say, but he does!)...

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:00 AM

But you have dismissed the USA as only making BS. That is too wide a generalisation - the same way as saying that all Australians wear hats with corks, drink lager and call everybody Bruce or Sheila misrepresents your country.

As a foreigner in the USA I can say that, for the main part, these are a good and generous bunch of people with an unbelievable work ethic. Unfortunately the powers that be have allowed big business to take full advantage of this and I certainly would not want to work here or be without health insurance.

Don't blame the whole notion for the actions of a few.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:27 AM

Robin, I don't see how your "story" has anything to do with your remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:41 AM

US Exports to Australia:
\http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/industry/otea/australia/Australia_USA.pdf

US Commodity Exports Worldwide for ONE week:
http://www.fas.usda.gov/export-sales/complete.htm


Australia purchases MORE PRODUCTS from the US than any other country:
http://www.ustr.gov/Document_Library/Press_Releases/2004/May/United_States_Australia_Sign_Free_Trade_Agreement.html

This does not include BS.
Robin,
I am, and have been from Day 1, disgusted with the bush administration. Criticize him and his lackeys as you wish. Criticize any politician you wish. There are a few exceptions but over all I trust none of them.
"all they make now in the USA is BS" is an offensive lie. I am proud to be a US citizen. I respect others' right to be proud citizens of their own country. I won't accept that this was anything but a malicious statement written in the spirit that "everyone hates America" so it's OK. It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 12:14 PM

Robin, you have been around here for quite a long time, and I've never known you to be nasty or insulting. Given this remark you made a lot of thought, and I want to think it was just an offhand comment that you yourself didn't necessarily believe.

These days, we who never voted for Bush or Cheney have been quite frustrated for what that gang is doing in the name of America. As far as I'm concerned, they should both be impeached, but the democrats lack the balls to do it.However, it is gratifying to see that the republicans are also getting fed up with them, and they are turning against Bush on the war.
Of course, they are mostly interested in covering their own asses with the coming election, and they know that the people have spoken, and the majority are against the war. John McCain is still in favor of the war, and his campaign is foundering badly. It's just a matter of time until he throws in the towel.

In the meantime, it would be nice if our friends could cut us some slack, and not lump us all together.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:41 PM

"But you have dismissed the USA as only making BS."

If DO you insist in taking throwaway comments made in jest out of context, you will always be upset.

"for the main part, these are a good and generous bunch of people"

Who said I disagree? I do have blood relatives there.


"Robin, I don't see how your "story" has anything to do with your remark."

Thanks for the opening Kemdall...

The good people of the USA tried to persuade this young bigoted guy that he was wrong - once might say that their arrogance that they were 'the best in the world' blinded them to the cultural differences so much that their actions that they thought good natured, only inflamed the bigoted guy's delusions. I suspect that no matter what I say now, that will be the case with a few here too... :-)

Of course, the fact that the USA sent over 100,000 troops to 'help' them when only a handful of troops could talk the local language, and that first televised act of a soldier in reaching a statue of Saddam was to drape a US flag over the face was seen by the people they were 'helping' were unfortunate acts of blindness or arrogance (maybe not at first, but they have had time to rethink), but of course that can't be admitted by some who refuse to accept that anything may be imperfect with the USA!

"Australia purchases MORE PRODUCTS from the US than any other country:"

That did use to be true. Recently it was on the news that China had overtaken the USA - both ways as far as I remmber. Of course I could have just dreamt that... And of course, if you count trade only in monetary value, the heavily depressed China currency distorts that.


"United_States_Australia_Sign_Free_Trade_Agreement"

Ah yes the good ol' FTA! - refered to by many Aussies as the "F*ck The Aussies" Agreement - it agrees that OUR LAWS are now subservient to USA!!!! OUR copyright Laws, OUR trade marks, etc are now WORTHLESS! At the same time the Arsehole USA insists that THEY WILL NOT REVOKE TRADE BARRIERS AGAINST Aust, in spite of demanding that we revoke all OUR trade barriers against USA - even to the extent of insisting that we compulsorily import disesased produce into a continent free of them!!!!!! You should NOT HAVE BROUGHT THAT up - THAT"S what is called cultural Imperial ARROGANCE!!!!!!!!!! Now I AM pissed!


"I won't accept that this was anything but a malicious statement written in the spirit that "everyone hates America""

Ah - then I am merely wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. It's just a waste of effort trying to communicate/negotiate with the bigoted, as my little 'let me tell you a tale' above was all about.

Not everyone 'hates America' yet- but I am sure "Uncle Sam" is working hard at it (keep up those FTAs!!!), in spite of many US citizens ALSO not approving...

"I want to think it was just an offhand comment that you yourself didn't necessarily believe."
"In the meantime, it would be nice if our friends could cut us some slack, and not lump us all together."

It would also be nice if those who do support their efforts aren't attacked too... Cynicism and Irony are still not appreciated by Americans, somehow it seems to bae been not a part of the culture, as much as it has been a part of British/Aussie culture (Aussie often make cynical statements against themsleves too!). Maybe the US has not yet been through suffient extended periods of 'hard times' as much as us two cultures have over the centuries. That's what we mean when we say that the US culture seems to breed large numbers of likeable 'good natured teenagers' - in a metaphorical sense.

As I said "The perception of the emergent behaviour of a larger group - such as the the 'country' - by those external to that 'country' may be at odds with the perceived behaviour of various individuals of that 'country' - I do not 'tar them all with the same brush'."

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:48 PM

So was your secret santa present all crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 07:55 PM

Apparently so. He was my SS too.

Out of context? In a discussion about poor service from an out of state window company, you post:

All they make now in the USA is BS...

Irony? Cynicism?
Hardly.

I remain offended. And am now bowing out of a futile discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 08:12 PM

"So was your secret santa present all crap?"

As I said "The perception of the emergent behaviour of a larger group - such as the the 'country' - by those external to that 'country' may be at odds with the perceived behaviour of various individuals of that 'country' - I do not 'tar them all with the same brush'."


"All they make now in the USA is BS...

Irony? Cynicism?
Hardly."

OK - So I definitely touched a nerve. I was taught that intelligent people should learn from such experiences.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 10:52 PM

I'm English and I didn't see anything but a bald statement of fact from you Robin.

Re your story - please don't confuse the majority of decent Americans with the bunch of crooks running the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:04 AM

...and ALL Indians walk single file.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 07:11 AM

by the way, Robin, where were you when the Japanese were about to invade Australia? Did anyone suggest that MacCarthur should go home because he was an arrogant American?
What would have happened if the USA had stayed out of WW 2 altogether?
Wanna talk about arrogance? how about the French? They didn'y run us off when we were there kicking Hitler's ass.

Your remark was out of line and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM

"where were you when the Japanese were about to invade Australia? "

Wasn't born. Parents and my parents and grandparents (living in Bundaberg!) were thoroughly pissed that the f***wit Aussie politicans and military wanted to withdraw to The Brisbane Line and let them land. I drive past the 'old tank road' regularly - where the rear support line was drawn. The 'chocos' - reserve soldiers - turned them back in NG (without any help from the USA!) over incredibly rugged country - while the Aussie regulars were still under R&R after returning from Britan. Many Aussies were in the shitcan for suggesting that Aussie military leaders were incompetent - if it had not been for the arrogant (and he was really! - just as well!) Maccie - things may well have been different - even though the Japanese were starting to struggle with over-extended supply lines, like Hitler did in Russia. Maccie believed that there was only was defence - attack. All the same, the grateful Aussies still came up with "overfed, overpaid, oversexed, and over here" - my mother's sister married one - and WAS FORCED TO GIVE UP HER Aussie citizenship - arrogant, wot, eh? Look up "Battle of Brisbane" ... :-P


"Did anyone suggest that MacCarthur should go home because he was an arrogant American?"

Yes. :-) Fortunately saner Aussie political and military heads prevailed.


"What would have happened if the USA had stayed out of WW 2 altogether?"

Ha! Hitler thoroughly detested the USA. He declared war on the USA rapidly after Pearl Harbour. He was working on long range missiles (which the US obtained the plans for after the war) to bomb New York with HE like the shorter range prototypes (V1 & V2) were used against England. He also had underway research for long range jet aircraft, and a nuclear bomb program - intended to be fitted to the long range missiles. There was even a plan that nobody knew about till after hostilities, to send long range aircraft to refuel and arm from a sub that would bomb the USA (luckily moot once the subs were driven from the Atlantic). The selfless sacrifical daylight raids by the US assisted the British (and the rest of the world) to delay these programs. In the long run, without participating, the USA would have been destroyed anyway (that was part of The Master Plan) - it was advertised in such films as 'Why We Fight' by the USA (I have copies!) - and the clever competent US politicans knew it - only the average ignorant populace were mostly 'protected' from much of that detailed knowledge, lest they call for surrender! Oh and most of the USA original 'help' (before Pearl Harbour) consisted of getting the British to mortage their grandchildren to pay for it... which the USA profited well from...


"Wanna talk about arrogance? how about the French? They didn't run us off when we were there kicking Hitler's ass."

French people went 'underground', many losing their lives sabotaging, and passing info out so the the Yanks could bomb the right places. It was in the US's long term interest (as mentioned above) to defeat Hitler's minions, in France and everywhere.


"Your remark was out of line and you know it."

Well, if you really want to play that hard ball way, ok.

"I didn't see anything but a bald statement of fact from you Robin."

Text only discussions often cause that error.


"please don't confuse the majority of decent Americans with the bunch of crooks running the country."

Well since I HAVE already stated that, it seems that most people aren't bothering to read or digest what I say anyway - so ...

In the Aussie tradition of Ned Kelly, "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" - especially as you all seem to want to keep on sinking the boot after any apology...

Been thinking hard about 'exported US BS'... there's just so much - political, mililtary, social, economic... no small part of the reason why we are in a mess with global warming has been US BS ideas of 'bigger, better, faster, less efficient, more luxury'...

So lets, for a start, (and if you want to keep it up, I'll go on) just pick one of the recent biggies...

Iraq...

Blair and Little Fascist Johnny couldn't join in fast enough, but the USA also used its political and financial muscle in open arrogant defiance of the UN to bully countries like Japan into sending troops outside its borders - something which is still causing political and constitional conniptions in that country. Funny how the US originally set up that Constitution to suit it's own purposes at the original time... :-)

Johhny's ministers recently let it slip that the reason for NOT withdrawing Aussie Troops is "OIL" - logically, since the oil did not magically appear there after the troops went in, it would suggest that had something to do with sending them, in spite of assurances that it did not... New Zealanders are laughing about Iraq, since after Uncle Sam had a tantrum and kicked them out of ANZUS for having a political mind of their own, the US suddenly had a panic attack when it realised that there was also an Aussie movement to play the same game: if it had not been for Little Fascist Johnny, the US would have had no Aussie bases either!


As I said "The perception of the emergent behaviour of a larger group - such as the the 'country' - by those external to that 'country' may be at odds with the perceived behaviour of various individuals of that 'country' - I do not 'tar them all with the same brush'."

But if you want to keep playing hard ball, ok - bring it on...

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:26 PM

You threw the first pitch Mate.

Just for the record, Hitler did not want war with ther USA, but when his ally, Japan attacked us, he had no choice but to support them. Only a mad man could have even dreamed of attacking the USA at that time.

Apology? What apology?

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 08:40 PM

I have the same question? What apology?

Kendall,
You have a policy of not fighting an unarmed man. Our reaction the the US bashing is noted. Responding to the numerous bits of misinformation re: WWII, Hitler, nuclear weapons, etc. will simply add to the smokescreen designed to draw attention away from a groundless and ignorant insult. I am asking you to let this drop off the bottom.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:07 PM

"Just for the record, Hitler did not want war with the USA, but when his ally, Japan attacked us, he had no choice but to support them. Only a mad man could have even dreamed of attacking the USA at that time."

He WAS mad. (The Opinion you expressed is more US BS propaganda.) So too, indeed, the Japanese military leaders were deluded. One of the best Japanese mililtary strategists talked about how stupid it was to 'awaken the sleeping giant' - and that once that happened, Japan would be defeated.

QUOTE
without participating, the USA would have been destroyed anyway (that was part of The Master Plan) - it was advertised in such films as 'Why We Fight' by the USA
UBQUOTE

"Why We Fight" was US Propaganda (actually NOT BS, but amazingly factual and realistic!) rapidly pushed out after Pearl Harbour which traced World History, especially Germany, Italy, & Japan subsequent to WWI and prior to WWII. For the US, WWII started in 1941 - for the Japanese and Chinese, it started in the 1930s - look up "Manchuoko" (spelling?) 'puppet government'... One Aussie PM was called 'Pig Iron Bob' for selling scrap iron to Japan during this time. It was claimed that we Aussies would get it back in the form of bullets and bombs, and we did...


"Apology? What apology?"

QUOTE
From: Foolestroupe
Date: 22 Jul 07 - 01:35 AM

Well, if you insist on taking retorts out of context, I apologise.

If you want to be personally insulted at anything I say, I apologise.

UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:09 PM

Hmmmm :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 07 - 09:20 PM

OOPS!

Hmmm :-)

My previous erreonous post may be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:05 AM

That was an apology? If we want to...

Old Downeast proverb, "Never spoil an apology with an excuse attached."

I've said what I need to say, and my opinion of that initial remark is unchanged.

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:10 PM

I thank you all for focusing my attention on this concept.

As a 'gestalt' type of thinker - I tend to do lots of stack browsing and other wide ranging research. I will often apparently flippantly pop something off the top of my head, and it is not until challenged on why or how I reach that conclusion that I start the unravelling process. I find that sometimes I am bigoted, which gives me a chance to rethink basic assumptions, and sometime I find that the evidence I have come across only supports my conclusion.

I will probably be focused on following that train of thought (about other countries other that just the USA as well) for some time now - since my US 'associates' here find that too sensitive to discuss openly and rationally, I won't bore you with the process.

However, I do find the concept of "you cannot dissociate my ideas from my person, so if you discuss or attack my ideas, you discuss or attack me personally" at serious odds with my cultural, religious and social upbringing, and very disturbing for human progress.

"Responding to the numerous bits of misinformation re: WWII, Hitler, nuclear weapons, etc"

Ignorance is bliss - it is not My Nation where large percentages of people don't even know where other countires in the world are.

As far as our 'chocos' turning back the Japanese, it was the first land reversal. As far as the bigger picture, we were seriously screwed navally, British forces being non-existant, and our forces pissing around on the other side of the globe (we were BS'ed into helping the Mother Country - and Churchill turned around our military overriding our orders!) without the serious effort and scrifices by the US Navy (and it was a damn close thing) the outcome would have been very different if the Jap navy had made it to Port Moresby. Don't think I'm not grateful - I'm just a bit pissed with the constant "USA alone saved the world" Religion. It was a Team blood effort by the whole world.

If my "type of apology" is unsatisifactory to some, that's life - I don't tell sweet lies just to crawl to people to make them feel better. If that loses me some casual 'friends', or other benefits - that's life - after the times of serious viciouos personal attacks and nastiness I have got thru, I prefer it that way nowadays. We all know where we stand that way.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 09:47 PM

No one attacked you, and no one said the USA won the bloody war!

Subject: RE: BS: Window World - scam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 11:10 PM

Ok - you win - I'm outa here.