Help-I might have written a protest song

Subject: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: closet-folkie
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:51 AM

I've never been a fan of the genre. The politics of war is such a huge subject to tackle, and to me, anyway, most attempts come off as lame and embarrassing. So what was I thinking? I'm not sure really, other than the fact that like many others, I'm so sickened by the daily reports of the continuing carnage being waged in the name of Allah-knows-what-- all for God-knows-what.
Anyway,Road To Ruin is the song in question and it's here if anyone would like to listen. I'm always open to feedback/ridicule/pity/scorn etc. Peace,
Steve R.
PS. Funnily enough, WUSB's Charlie Backfish recently played this on his "Sunday Street" programme. He really shouldn't encourage me!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:06 PM

Wow! Beautiful! Thanks so much for the link and info. Well done.

Have you sent your CD to www.hober.com to be played on hober radio? I would recommend it.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:17 PM

Well done!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:26 PM

I can't access it just now, but when I can I will. Looking forward to it.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:32 PM

That's a fine song. However, as to the title of your thread, I think you would know if you were protesting. How could you honestly be ambiguous about such a thing? Are you registering a protest?

I think you are; but you are the author. Own what you have done; call it a protest song if it is one, and let the critics be damned.

A

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM

well...it left me with two reactions....it DID hit hard, with some powerful images, but I was not sure exactly what it hit at. It needed a verse identifying the target more clearly.....I think *I* got most of it, but not sure if everyone would. The title is "Road to Ruin", and the lyrics only hint at what that is.
Phrases like "Shoot the lights out of the way
                Watch the black and white turn grey"
make ME do a lot of work in interpretation that I usually expect the author to clarify. Perhaps you merely wanted to paint a word-picture of the times and allow each listener to internalize it, but I, personally, would rather have a bit more explicit imagery.

Hope this helps, and is not taken as a serious criticism of a meaningful and needed song.


Also, in following the words as it was playing, the order was different from what was sung...I'm not sure that is crucial, but you might like to decide which way you want it.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 02:49 PM

Since the lyrics are available on the www, would someone post them here?

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 03:57 PM

I agree with Amos -- you know if you're protesting... or, rather, you know that you're protesting. The protest song "genre" covers plenty of musical-style territory, including the style in which you've written your song.

I have a couple of nitpicks about the lyrics:

"Holy rhymes and pledges grave" is contrived; you've got the adjective before the noun in the beginning of the phrase and the noun before the adjective by the end of the phrase. I'm sure you can write a more colloquial-sounding phrase that ends in "grave" and that also fits the style of the rest of the lyrics.

I don't care for close rhymes and false rhymes, though I realize that most songwriters today employ them everywhere so I grit my teeth and try to tolerate them (and even include them in my songwriting on occasion). Most listeners anticipate the end of a rhyming phrase and tend to fill in the blank with a true rhyme before the actual word is sung. One of your verses contains a very unfortunate close-rhyme that is likely to make the listener complete the line himself with a truer rhyme (mentally or, God forbid, audibly) using a word that will make him laugh -- and I'm sure you don't want that! Here's what I'm imagining him singing:
"We've got karma by the yard
[Guess] who left his calling card
Stay the course and you'll go fart."

See what I mean? I strongly advise you to change that verse!

Sharon

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:32 PM

There are lots of different people in this song: "you" and "me" and "we" and "they"... it's rather unfocused. As Bill D says, you need to identify your target more clearly. Is it "them"? Okay, then; who are "they"? Is the "you" whom you are addressing part of the "we" or part of the "they"?

Bill D also makes a good point about not making your listener work too hard at figuring out what your imagery means. You've got a mish-mosh of images that may or may not be related: a body in the sea, shooting lights out, colors that change, following signposts on a road, burning picture books, lucky gods, rhymes and pledges, killing and sparing, waving flags, karma, calling cards, the ubiquitous "stay the course" phrase, the cliched "road to ruin" phrase, old people, young people, songs being sung, burning [again!] bridges, burning [again!] flags [again!], ashes [burning again!], body [again!] bags, and you looking "in" [inside?] from the "outside" telling someone inside to blame some ambiguous population.... I'm lost. I don't know where to imagine that I am in this song -- in the ocean or on a road or in a cloud of smoke!

You will need to bring the imagery into focus in order to make this song make sense. You seem to be speaking to the listener directly so you will need to decide what your message is. If, on the other hand, you are speaking to someone other than the listener (the government? soldiers? terrorists?) then you need to direct your statements toward that someone. Otherwise you have just another stereotypical bit of generalized whining about how terrible war is, which everyone knows already. Make your message stand out -- make it your own -- make it specific -- and make it clear!!!

Sorry, but this is the hard part about songwriting: taking it apart and putting it back together so that it works better -- like a robot. Too many people treat a new song like a baby instead, a living thing that needs to be coddled and dressed in frilly clothes (or, in this case, dressed in the studio with multiple vocal tracks and synthetic violins and crowd-noise effects). In other words, they see it as something that's been born fully formed from the womb of their mind. In point of fact, though, what pops out of one's mind is usually quite raw and unrefined.

Your tune and your guitar-playing and the production of your song are quite pleasant, so you can at least salvage them and lay in some new vocal tracks once you've done some rewriting... unless you change the structure of the song or add a verse or something, in which case the studio work will have to change with it.

Whaddaya mean, that's too much work? Whaddaya mean, the song is finished? Just because it's been recorded and played on the radio? Then what did you ask us for help for? If you're not willing to change this song, at least take our advice under consideration when you write your next protest song (or any song, for that matter).

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:41 PM

"Help-I might have written a protest song"

Nope! Nothing to worry about.
What you have written is a finely crafted and extremely well presented caption of the world, as you see it.
Nicely done but an observation rather than a protest.
Love your sound.
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 05:44 PM

the words.

"Move your body to and fro

Languid in the undertow

Going where the currents go

On the road to ruin



Shoot the lights out of the way

Watch the black and white turn grey

Signposts showing us the way

On the road to ruin



Blame the young

Blame the old

Blame it on the lies we told

Burning pictures

In burning books

Some Gods they have all the luck



Looking from the outside in

Turns me inside out





Holy rhymes and pledges grave

That one kills and this one saves

You'll have lots of flags to wave

On the road to ruin



We've got karma by the yard

Look who left his calling card

Stay the course and you'll go far

On the road to ruin



Blame the old

Blame the young

Blame it on the songs we sung

Burning bridges

Burning flags

Ashes or a body bag



Looking from the outside in

Turns me inside out

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:21 PM

I liked the imagery and didn't have any trouble not over-analysing...just letting the images flow and bring to mind certain events I am aware of in the world.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 06:45 PM

Kat, I don't think it's "over"-analyzing to ask what a song means and try to figure out the answer.

The answer in this case, I suppose, is in Steve's introductory remarks on the page he linked to. There he mentions seeing those images of world events flow by on TV screens in a restaurant while unrelated piped-in music played, and he noted the contrast. Now, if he had worked that into his song, it would have been powerful imagery that would have tied all the other (seemingly disconnected) images together.

But when the introduction is three times as long as the song, something is the matter with the song. A song should stand on its own without liner notes or pre-emptive stage patter.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:07 PM

Okay, I'm exaggerating -- Steve's introductory remarks were only a bit less than twice as long as his song, word-count-wise! But my point is the same.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:21 PM

But when one epitaph is ten times longer than your own prologue then there is something definitely right about the song.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:31 PM

I don't even know what that means, Jim. Whose epitaph? Who died?

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: john f weldon
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 07:36 PM

Nice song, but too nice...
...we need outrage...
...I don't like writing protest songs either, but most protests, even in the sixties, were of the "we're making a mistake, but if we were nicer, everything would be okay..."

That's like a love song that says...
"You're kinda pretty, I like you a little bit..."

A protest song should be loathing and disgust!

Not to denigrate the song, it's still a good song, but listen to "Follow Me to Carthage" by the Mammals. Same route, differet paths. Halfway between these two songs is the great one!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 08:25 PM

The song died. Or would have, had you continued.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Joybell
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 09:34 PM

Steve, I think the only mistake you've made is to put a lable on your work and to ask for help.
Glad you shared it though.
Your song stands as a creative piece of art. Whether or not it works as a performace piece is a different question. Let them who have ears to hear.... I reckon.
I agree wholeheartedly with Kat and Jim.
Cheers and thank you Steve, Joy

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 10:31 PM

"Help-I might have written a protest song"

Well, don't tell my mother. She thinks I'm playing piano in a whore house.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Cluin
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 10:42 PM

You take your work home with you. Peace?

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 10:43 PM

It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Cluin
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:00 PM

Atta boy!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Cluin
Date: 17 Jul 07 - 11:02 PM

(What a strange expression.)

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:28 AM

Sharon, no need to take it personally. I don't happen to listen to songs in the same way, apparently, so I don't really feel a need to figure out exactly what it is about or is supposed to say. I usually let my feelings listen for me and I go by that. I also listen to the tune more than I do the words, so that's part of the difference, I suppose.:-)

In the case of this song, I took it as an overall comment on various things going on in our world, things I happen to feel strongly about and I think Steve put that across. My opinion only, though.

I like this song, very much - the voice, arrangement, and musicianship.

kat

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 01:37 AM

Kat, please don't misunderstand my post of 6:45 p.m. I wasn't taking your comment personally. I was making a general statement, in response to your comment, that in my opinion there's a difference between over-analyzing a song and seeking to discern what the writer is trying to convey. I had agreed with, and expounded on, Bill D's comments that the "target" of Steve's lyrics was ambiguous and that the listener had to work too hard to interpret his imagery.

I am of the same mind as Bill with respect to his comment that "I, personally, would rather have a bit more explicit imagery." It's cool that you and some others here are okay with more implicit imagery in a song and that you enjoy letting the whole song evoke feelings in you. As you say, we don't listen in the same way.

I like everything about the song except the lyrics! Love the tune, like the arrangement, love Steve's voice. But for me, that's not enough because I'm listening for more than that. This song could be so much better if the lyrics were refined (with less repetition of words like "burned" and more synonyms that help paint the pictures) and tied together with a common thread (perhaps the image of Steve watching the various pictures on TV, which is what inspired him in the first place), and then it would have even more power and a more universal appeal: it would still have that evocative imagery that inspires you, and it would have the explicit message that inspires folks like Bill and me. I want so badly for that to happen because Steve is already a good part of the way there.

This could be a GREAT song but, as of now, it's "well done" and "meaningful" and "fine" and so forth. The images Steve saw affected him deeply enough for him to write, and I want them to affect me as deeply. Moreover, I want his sorrow at the apathy he saw around him to affect me as deeply. I think he has the capacity and the talent to do that. I can't adequately convey here how strongly I am saying this... I'm ready to drive down the coast and shake him by the shoulders and say, "Do it, man!!! Make me feel what you felt in that moment of inspiration!" THAT is what his song is evoking in me!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:27 AM

Steve R, You're not the only one. This is definately a Protest Song written and performed by Wendy Arrowsmith (my other half).

This song personalises the generic you are describing (I think): To Be A Soldier

Follow Link below to hear.

Again any feedback gratefully received.


http://www.myspace.com/wendyarrowsmith

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:43 AM

Steve,

What I forgot to say is that I like your song, it makes me feel.....and surely that is the whole point?

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:07 AM

It certainly does personalise it, Banjiman and in a very meaningful way. Very beautiful and sad...made me cry. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: closet-folkie
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

I'd be remiss if I didn't thank everyone for their wonderfully varied opinions on the track in question. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to listen and comment.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not from the "explicitly expressed lyrics" school. I should also confess upfront that my background is probably closer to pop than folk. My favourite songwriters (Neil Finn, Ron Sexsmith, Andy Partridge to name a few) tend to be more shadowy/vague in their approach; I just find it more interesting and it keeps me coming back for more listens.
I always liked the sound of words as much as anything. Sometimes a phrase just sounds good to me and when married in a certain way with the melody and/or the sound of the voice, it'll just feel right to me. For example, there are songs that Neil Finn has written that might confound me if written on paper and analysed; indeed, many of his lyrics remain a mystery to me, but they may have a beautiful lilt to them, and when sung against a certain instrumental backdrop, or are phrased in just the right way, they can stop me cold. It's something that can defy analysis; a happy accident perhaps? I'm not comparing myself to Mr Finn of course; just trying to explain my own particular taste.
Another favourite of mine is Neil Young, but I have to tell you that when I heard his "Impeach The President" thing, which is about as direct and uncluttered as lyrics get, I could barely even get to the end; I found it excruciating. Different strokes, as they say.
Having said this, I totally understand where SharonA and Bill D are coming from and found their comments stimulating and thought-provoking. It made me want to pick up the guitar and write something better, whatever the style. To have someone take the time to offer heartfelt, constructive criticism like that is really rewarding. To get a spirited reaction like ...
" I think he has the capacity and the talent to do that. I can't adequately convey here how strongly I am saying this... I'm ready to drive down the coast and shake him by the shoulders and say, "Do it, man!!! Make me feel what you felt in that moment of inspiration!" THAT is what his song is evoking in me!"

...I mean, how could I not be jazzed by a response like that? I don't ever remember writing a song that made anyone want to shake me by the shoulders, so this is a first for me! Brilliant.
As far as re-recording the song goes...well, it's a bit late for that really. The CDs have been pressed, delivered to retail outlets, reviewed etc. Some poor misguided souls have even bought the bugger, so although it is tempting to somehow be able to insert the word "fart" into the song, it's just not really practical at this stage.
In closing, I should add that on reflection, I agree with Amos's comment on the way the thread was introduced. It was a little cheesy and cute, as well as unnecessary. The song should be able to stand(or fall) on its own merits. The critics be damned indeed!
Thanks again folks. All the best then,
Steve R.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 12:32 PM

Steve R: So, I was thinking about that song and the audience murmur at the start of it and thought "You know, if I wanted that to be a protest song, I'd make sure that same sound was there at the end." The message being, of course, "No-body's listening".
So I went back for another listen and sho' 'nuff... it's there.
That my friend, is the stroke of the artist.
This picture in this particular frame tells a more complete story than I had first noticed.
Well done.
Jim

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:01 PM

Ok, Steve...glad the ideas helped you think about things. It is not necessary to write to please everyone...but you already knew that.

There's enough stuff that NEEDS exposing and protesting that 20 songs in 20 styles would be still too little.

Since I do NOT write, I appreciate those who do...keep at it.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:11 PM

The song should be able to stand(or fall) on its own merits"...
And it does stand, very much so - in spades!
Great song, Steve.
Apologise for nothing, as a songwriter, as long as you are true to yourself.
You should only apologise if you are trying to write "to order", to please others but without conviction.
When you feel conviction at 200% - then it's a great time to write a song; let it pour out. You can tidy it up later.
Again - Great song, Steve.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 02:24 PM

Katlaughing, sorry if "To Be A Soldier" made you cry but glad you found it beautiful.

Wendy is still keen to get more feedback. I will post the link to it here again.


http://www.myspace.com/wendyarrowsmith

Can somone guide me, would it be more appropriate to post this request for feedback in a new thread?

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 03:08 PM

Yes please Banjiman, it makes for "cleaner" discussions.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Kajikit
Date: 18 Jul 07 - 04:17 PM

Beautiful melody, beautiful playing, beautiful voice... but the actual lyrics just kind of wafted over me, and that was when I was looking at them written down! I agree with the posters who said it's a bit vague and unfocused... but since when has that ever been a bar to success?!

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: closet-folkie
Date: 19 Jul 07 - 01:53 PM

Thanks very much George. Your kind comments are really appreciated.
Much respect,
Steve R.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 20 Jul 07 - 01:33 PM

Well done my friend,nice to see the dumbing down has not affected all of the folk world.OOOPs maybe should say the song writing world.

Subject: RE: Help-I might have written a protest song
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 07 - 12:49 PM

No one needs to apologize for writing a protest song.

The fact that people do is because there have been some very poor, banal protest songs written in the past...("One Tin Soldier", "Billy, Don't Be a Hero", "Eve of Destruction", etc.)

But there have also been some very, very good ones.

So it does not need any apology for being a protest song.