The speed of the Fiddle

Subject: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 10:43 AM

Are some instruments at least potentially or inherently faster than others?

Clearly the ability, experience and depth of practice are crucial but after watching Kathryn, small pipes and fiddle, and Mike Tickell, fiddle, and probably hundreds of others in sessions etc. it struck me that it might be easy to play some instruments faster than others.

Any truth here?

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: GUEST,muso
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 10:58 AM

Definately - I find that guys on the piano-accordion play fast (often too fast : ie at the expense of the tune) - in fact, anything with buttons I reckon is easier to play faster

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: GUEST,muso
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:02 AM

sorry - meant to add that I don't think the fiddle is easy to play fast (and sound clean at the same time). Anyone who can do so is GOOD eg Sean Keane

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:10 AM

Definitely. When I was playing hammered dulcimer regularly, I would have to intentionally slow tunes down to keep from playing them too fast. And sometimes it's not the instrument, but the technique that's the main factor. I play guitar in both flatpicking and fingerpicking styles, but I can fingerpick much faster. There are some tunes that I intentionally only play with a flatpick as a means of "putting the brakes on". It's too easy to get carried away with the fingerpicks.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:16 AM

I play autoharp. Everyone I know says I only play half-fast.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:21 AM

LOL, Bill!

Skill is a big factor, but I also think it depends on the fiddle. I know I can play my dad's faster and more cleanly than I can my old fiddle. Of course, it also has to do with the bridge and esp. the bow.

I don't like it when folks use speed to excess, esp. to show off, esp. when they blur or miss the notes because they aren't as skilled as they should be.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Grab
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 01:44 PM

Seems to me that the "button boys" might have an advantage in coordination - in that they don't need as much.

Flatpicked or fingerpicked guitar/mandolin/banjo and whistles, they all need coordination between the two hands for a single note. Violins need coordination on changing bow direction (which is also a matter of phrasing), but you can do several notes very quickly in a single bow and only your left hand is active in changing notes. Similarly, top electric guitarists can play ultra-fast by using sweep picking to hold a single shape with the left hand and produce an arpeggio in one "sweep" across the strings, or by using two-hand tapping to minimise/eliminate picking. Button/piano accordians and melodeons, and pianos for that matter, need no coordination between hands beyond what's required to play several notes together.

Also there's the question of pure inertia involved. Playing a concertina fast will always be a challenge, because there are some notes you can only get in one direction, and changing direction quickly on that is going to be hard because of the mass involved. Guitarists might use lighter strings to minimise the finger pressure needed, if that reduces a tendency to stiffen up on the left hand. Some players with stronger fingers might even use *heavier* strings because the extra upward force helps them leave the frets faster when you lift your fingers off.

But ultimately I think skill's got to have more of an impact. A good player on a "harder" instrument will always beat hell out of an average player on an "easy" instrument.

Graham.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:05 PM

Some instruments are inherently more agile than others. Fiddles/violins have all the shapes closer together than, say, an acoustic guitar just because of the way they are constructed and tuned, and because of the differences in bowing vs picking. But of course a skilled player can outrun a half-fast player instrument for instrument. There are physical differences (air column length in wind instruments for example, and the mass of the sound-producing elements in others) that limit the speed you can practically change notes.
To give a more apples-to-pomegranates comparison, taking the skill factor out, compare the same guitar player on a dreadnought acoustic and a slinky electric, and they'll (usually) be faster on the more agile electric. Assuming the player is comfortable on both instruments to begin with.
For me, playing different keyboards with different actions gives a dramatic difference in the speed I can achieve. (Which is never much anyhow, but it makes the point.)
Anyway I think there is a reason the old composers gave the fast parts to the violins and flutes, and not to the tubas. :-)
-Glenn

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Nick
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 07:37 PM

I recently bought a mandolin and can play much quicker on it than I can on an acoustic guitar. Tuning and spacing (ie proximity of notes without stretching) seem to lend themselves to speed.

The electric guitars in the house are easier to play fast than the acoustics.

I'm not sure where my bass sits in all this - I can play reasonably quickly on it but feel it is inherently slower.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 08:14 PM

There are three important words that are really the clue to the answer to this question.


Practice, practice, practice...

Tests on brain scans that show the amount of myelin sheath laid down on the nerves in the brain have shown that about 3,000 hours practice gets one to about the standard of being accepted for entry to 'an advanced school of music' - 10,000 hours gets you to about the standard of a classical music soloist.... :-)

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 10:40 PM

Practice is not a factor in this case. Some instruments are indeed inherently faster than others, and the reasons are varied. In the case of the extremes of the bugle family the column of air to be set in motion for each note is massively longer in a bass tuba than in a soprano cornet. But even between instruments of comparable pitch there can be differences that render some be faster than others. It takes less physical movement and energy to progress from one note to another on a euphonium than on a slide trombone (the only possible excuse for development of the valve trombone). Likewise, on balance, on a cello. There are of course several other ways in which the differences between instruments affect the inherent playing characterstics.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 03:42 AM

In attempting construct a "fair test", ie to control as many other variables as possible, can anybody who has played say 2 instruments to about the same level and practices and plays them as often comment on differences that they have found?

Thanks

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:26 AM

Les in Chorlton

In attempting construct a "fair test", ie to control as many other variables as possible, can anybody who has played say 2 instruments to about the same level and practices and plays them as often comment on differences that they have found?

Not sure that I can quite fill the bill. I play fiddle and English concertina but not necessarily to the same level. I'm faster on concertina then fiddle which I think is partly due to greater experience but also the fact that the mechanics of playing are less complex and involve smaller movements. In southern English music (Sussex unofficial motto "We wun't be druv") speed is less important but the differences may apply to accuracy and expression.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 08:12 AM

I play many instruments of vary different types - unfortunately none of them to the standard I would like, and none of them as often as I would like.

I think you are trying to largely compare 'apples & oranges'...

I do go along with the different playability of different instruments, especially for the 'relatively inexperienced'.

However I will say that I once saw a guy play a large repertoire of tunes that one would normally expect to be played on a piano accordion, but he played them flawlessly on a button accordion - and if you closed your eyes you most likely could not tell the difference, except for the subtly different tone difference between the two instruments.

I mean, no inhibitions caused by having to reverse bellows or cross rows for the tunes - he just WAS that good... better than many piano accordion players, and definitely MUCH better than MOST 'button accordionists' I have seen. I'm not talking 'speed(velocity)' - but he could play pretty quick too...

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 08:27 AM

So, I have little excuse for the rather slow speeds at which I confront tunes upon the Mandola, Nelson since you ask. It's just practice is it?

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 09:28 AM

Practice, and in my case a small amount of Micro Motor Disorder....
:-P

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 10:06 AM

I've been enjoying discovering that there is a limit on human speed that is common to all sports, all music, all activities. I'm not talking about the limit on how fast one may travel across land, space, or water (for example), but about the speed at which human legs and arms can move to cause that propulsion. I'd guess the limits are partly limb mechanics liomits and partly brain/muscle-impulse limits, plus of course aerobic limits.

Beyond that limit, in music, there's only MIDI.

~S~

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Grab
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:11 AM

Beyond that limit, in music, there's only MIDI.

Or Yngwie Malmsteen, Eddie Van Halen, Herman Li, Eric Roche, Andres Segovia, etc... :-) There's also a guy on Youtube with some picking practise exercises who is simply mindblowingly technically adept - I can't hammer-on as fast as this guy can pick scales!

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 03:21 PM

Is it really desirable to play that fast?

Recently I saw a young lad on a button accordion and his fingers were flying - truly amazing technically, but in my view it wasn't music any more. Just a blur.

It would have been interesting to hear him play slowly. That is usually a much better test of musicianship.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

Since fast isn't really on option for me I'm all for slow to a bit quick. Most sessions seem far too quick but I am I just failing to practice enough?

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 03:50 PM

The speed an instrument CAN be played at depends in many cases on the distances fingers etc need to move to produce the series of notes. Valves on a trumpet move a shorter distance than those on a tuba, so the trumpet has a speed advantage built in. That doesn't mean that some tuba players cannot play faster than some trumpeteers, but that is despite the instrument, not because of it. Same goes for larger and smaller instruments within a family of instruments.
Comparing things such as fiddle and tin whistle is a more difficult proposition. Often a tune is written for or created on a specific instrument. The intervals, fingering and jumps between particular groups of notes are specifically suited to that instrument, often to make fingering simpler.Some tunes are simple on one instrument but incredibly difficult to play on some other instrument.

Some players are incredibly fast, but if you actually listen to what they play, they produce the speed by either missing out half the notes or play something which isn't actually the tune.

As fot the speed of a fiddle...
A banjo has a longer neck an heavier body, so you can build up more momentum with the swing. It therefore goes faster when you let go.
A bodhran flies further, but not necessarily as quick.
As for melodeons, what matters is accuracy of the throw rather than the speed.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:08 PM

More physics lessons needed, Geoff. Not arguing with your preferences though....

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:48 AM

Did you miss me she said, I did, but it was a long way to through, I replied.

"Often a tune is written for or created on a specific instrument. The intervals, fingering and jumps between particular groups of notes are specifically suited to that instrument, often to make fingering simpler.Some tunes are simple on one instrument but incredibly difficult to play on some other instrument."

Excellent point Geoff, I have noticed some tunes probably fiddle tunes feel comfortable on the Mandola and hence easier to play in general and probably quicker.

I guess their should be something in what people said above about the number of fingers needed to make a note. whistles and pipes are often quick and perhaps keyboards?

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:00 AM

Geoff has perfect pitch. You should here him on the kazoo.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Nick
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:14 AM

In Total Guitar magazine some years ago it was suggested that the fastest playing was in the solo of Steve Vai's 'The Riddle' where he plays at a speed of 20.8 notes a second which is quite nippy.

My son went on an Extreme Guitar course in Bath recently and they pretty much concurred with the Practice, practice, practice thing. To develop speed play the exercises at a metronome setting making sure you are note perfect; develop physical memory of the piece; increase speed; and so on and on... Without precision speed being pointless. A friend of my son leaps into top speed mode first without doing the first bit and struggles.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:26 AM

Thanks Nick, good advice.

With respect, otherwise, to the Kazoo, I guess it is better in close combat than as a throwing weapon

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Grab
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:41 AM

Is it really desirable to play that fast?

Depends. "Orange Blossom Special" is actually not that interesting a tune if you slow it down.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:46 AM

picks are snags. A bow, by nature, stays above the strings and can doesn't inherently impede speed.

Yes, speed is important. Good, clean sound it even better. The best players can do both at the same time. When I listen to David Grier, the man is playing so cleanly -- with so much clarity between notes -- that I often think he's not playing that fast....until I pick up my guitar or mandolin and try to play along.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Nick
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:02 AM

There is a track from 'Celtic Fiddle festival' CD with Kevin Burke playing (I think) Cutting Bracken / Brisk Bob / Laird Of Drumblair and the speed he bows individual notes right at the end of the set of tunes is an astounding speed - every note clear and separate. Amazing bit of playing.

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:51 AM

Is speed really desirable?
It depends. De gustibus and all that.
For my part I find, say, Mark Knopfler's expressive but not blazing fast guitar arias much more interesting listening than Eddie van Halen's mindless velocity worship.
Maybe some will accuse me of sour grapes 'cuz I can't play so fast, but I do believe there's something in it.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:48 AM

Fastest fiddler....Ti Jean (Johnny) Carignan from French Canada. Don't think he made Guiness Book of World Recordsthough

Subject: RE: The speed of the Fiddle
From: john f weldon
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 11:06 AM

I once clocked some banjo players, both clawhammer and bluegrass. The fastest was about 349 beats/minute which is almost 700 individual notes. That's almost 12 notes per second, which, in animator-speak, is 2 frames per note.
At that speed, most of the notes are not exactly meanful, more just rhythm.

(I note that prestissimo is usually defined as anything more than 200 bpm)