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BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia
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Subject: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 07 - 03:19 PM From the Washington Post: Turkey's War on the Truth By Richard Cohen Tuesday, October 16, 2007; Page A19 It goes without saying that the House resolution condemning Turkey for the "genocide" of Armenians from 1915 to 1923 will serve no earthly purpose and that it will, to say the least, complicate if not severely strain U.S.-Turkey relations. It goes without saying, also, that the Turks are extremely sensitive on the topic and, since they are helpful in the war in Iraq and are a friend to Israel, that their feelings ought to be taken into account. All of this is true, but I would feel a lot better about condemning this resolution if the argument wasn't so much about how we need Turkey and not at all about the truthfulness of the matter. Of even that, I have some doubt. The congressional resolution repeatedly employs the word "genocide," a term used by many scholars. But Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-Jewish emigre who coined the term in 1943, clearly had in mind what the Nazis were doing to the Jews. If that is the standard -- and it need not be -- then what happened in the collapsing Ottoman Empire was something short of genocide. It was plenty bad -- maybe as many as 1.5 million Armenians perished, many of them outright murdered -- but not all Armenians everywhere in what was then Turkey were as calamitously affected. The substantial Armenian communities in Constantinople, Smyrna and Aleppo were largely spared. No German city could make that statement about its Jews. Still, by any name, what was begun in 1915 is unforgivable and, one hopes, unforgettable. Yet it was done by a government that no longer exists -- the so-called Sublime Porte of the Ottomans, with its sultan, concubines, eunuchs and the rest. Even in 1915, it was an anachronism, no longer able to administer its vast territory -- much of the Middle East and the Balkans. The empire was crumbling. The so-called Sick Man of Europe was breathing its last. Its troops were starving, and, both in Europe and the Middle East, indigenous peoples were declaring their independence and rising in rebellion. Among them were the Armenians, an ancient people who had been among the first to adopt Christianity. By the end of the 19th century, they were engaged in guerrilla activity. By World War I, they were aiding Turkey's enemy, Russia. Within Turkey, Armenians were feared as a fifth column. So contemporary Turkey is entitled to insist that things are not so simple. If you use the word genocide, it suggests the Holocaust -- and that is not what happened in the Ottoman Empire. But Turkey has gone beyond mere quibbling with a word. It has taken issue with the facts and in ways that cannot be condoned. Its most famous writer, the Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk, was arrested in 2005 for acknowledging the mass killing of Armenians. The charges were subsequently dropped, and although Turkish law has been modified in some ways, it nevertheless remains dangerous business for a Turk to talk openly and candidly about what happened in 1915. It just so happens that I am an admirer of Turkey. Its modern leaders, beginning with the truly remarkable Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, have done a Herculean job of bringing the country from medievalism to modernity without, it should be noted, the usual bloodbath. (The Russians, for instance, did not manage that feat.) Furthermore, I can appreciate Turkey's palpable desire to embrace both modernity and Islam and to show that such a combination is not oxymoronic. (Ironically, having a dose of genocide in your past -- the United States and the Indians, Germany and the Jews, etc. -- is hardly "not Western.") And I think, furthermore, that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi should have spiked the House resolution in deference to Turkey's immense strategic importance to the United States. She's the speaker now, for crying out loud, not just another House member. But for too long the Turks have been accustomed to muscling the truth, insisting either through threats or punishment that they and they alone will write the history of what happened in 1915. They are continuing along this path now, with much of official Ankara threatening this or that -- crossing into Iraqi Kurdistan, for instance -- if the House resolution is not killed. But it may yet occur to someone in the government that Turkey's tantrums have turned an obscure -- nonbinding! -- congressional resolution into yet another round of tutorials on the Armenian tragedy of 1915. Call it genocide or call it something else, but there is only one thing to call Turkey's insistence that it and its power will determine the truth: unacceptable. ------------------------------- As for MY opinion, I feel that Turkey was guilty of attempted genocide, and should be held to account. Since the Great Powers ( France and England) let the Turks modify the Treaty of Lucerne ( re the San Remos conference) to remove the creation of the independent states of Armenia and Kurdistan, perhaps those powers should also have some of the blame for allowing A. Hitler, in the next war, being able to say "Who remembers the Armenians? " and then continuing genocide against Jews and Gypsys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Ebbie Date: 16 Oct 07 - 03:28 PM I agree with you, bb. The annihilation did occur- it is painful reading. For the Turks to object so adamantly is kind of like if the USA wree to threaten to withdraw support from any nation that insists that slavery once thrived in this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Amos Date: 16 Oct 07 - 03:52 PM Turkey was guilty of attempted genocide, and should be held to account I fail to see why this resolution concerning the events of 1915 to 1923 should be of paramount importance. It is totally honorable and correct that the Armenian annihilation be recorded truthfully, as a historical event. But since when is our Congress' foremost role being the paper of record for History? Why this event, instead of the slaughter of the Tibetans by the Chinese, murdering monks in their tens of thousands in 1959? Or the slaughter of Buddhists throughout eastern India and Europe by the Muslim hordes in th eoriginal Jihad? Or the slaughter of tens of thousands of Sioux, Shawnee, Mohican, Nez Perce, Pawnee, Shoshone, Seminole, Blackfoot and Sioux by the United States citizenry and Army just a few decades earlier? What is it about this time and place that makes this issue salient? I don't get it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM All rather like the USA's genocide against the North American native indians is it not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Greg B Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:05 PM An Turkish acquaintance of mine, schooled in Turkey, firmly middle-class, about forty years old now is firmly convinced of two things which he learned in school: 1. That the Armenians were the aggressors at beginning of the last century. 2. The Australians at Gallipoli were the 'bad guys.' Yep, it's going to be interesting getting Turkey into the EU... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: fretless Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:10 PM If I had any faith at all in the competency of Congress, I would see in the resolution regarding the Armenian genocide an attempt by the Democratic-controlled Congress to influence the conduct of the current Iraq war, in which on the one hand we rely on Turkey for supply routes and on the other hand on Turkish restraint in not having Kurdistan develop into a major northern front. But that's much too subtle a play for the U.S. Congress, regardless of which party is manipulating the process. More likely what we're seeing is the action of a few congressonal dolts with some Armenian constituents from whom the for-sale congressmen are hoping to collect some donations or votes or both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:23 PM "the Armenian Massacres — was the forcible deportation and massacre[1] of hundreds of thousands to over 1.5 million Armenians during the government of the Young Turks from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire.[2] It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,[3][4] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.[5] The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide after the Nazi Holocaust.[6] To date twenty-two countries have officially recognized it as genocide. The government of the Republic of Turkey rejects the characterization of the events as genocide.[7]" Sultan Abdul Hamid II suspended the constitution early in his reign, assuming dictatorial powers. As the Ottoman Empire declined, Armenian political resistance stiffened, resulting in several massacres of Armenians throughout Abdul Hamid's reign.[13][14] By the last years of the 19th century, after a series of massacres in 1894 and 1895, the New York Times noted an apparent "policy of extermination directed against the Christians of Asia Minor".[15] In 1908, the Ottoman Empire came under the control of the Young Turks, a secular movement aiming to restore constitutional and parliamentary rule.[16] The movement was welcomed by religious minorities throughout the Empire. In 1909, as the authority of the nascent Young Turk government splintered, Abdul Hamid II briefly regained his sultanate with a populist appeal to Islamism. 30,000 Armenians perished in the subsequent Adana Massacre.[14] When two U.S.-born missionaries were killed in the 1909 massacres, Ottoman authorities attributed the killings to "Armenians" who killed them as they "were helping to put out a fire in the house of a Turkish widow."[17] This report was later contradicted by an American priest who witnessed the killings, who suggested that the missionaries were killed by "Moslems".[18] Young Turk leadership For more details on this topic, see Young Turk Revolution, Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire The Young Turk leadership recovered from the Sultan's 1909 countercoup. By this time, however, the Young Turk revolutionaries were already hardened in their distrust and resentment of Ottoman Christians. According to Erik Jan Zürcher of the University of Leiden, Living in the urban centers of the southern Balkans made this generation acutely aware of the increasing gap between the Christian bourgeoisie on the one hand and the Muslim middle class on the other. This gap was evident in education, with superior schools being established both by the non-Muslim communities themselves and by European missionary organizations… The gap was also increasingly evident in the economy… The sons of the Muslim middle class… increasingly found their place in the state bureaucracy (which grew thirtyfold in the Nineteenth Century) and the officer corps of the armed forces. As such, they were in a paradoxical situation: they represented the authority and prestige of the state, but at the same time they lived in relative poverty, wages often being in arrears for months if not years… Young Turk memoirs show us very clearly how aware they were of the growing gap between Muslims and non-Muslims. Born in the traditional Muslim quarters they gazed in awe at the villas the Greek and Armenian industrialists built along newly laid-out avenues with tramways and streetlights. The contrast defined their loyalties… The Young Turks developed a fierce Ottoman-Muslim nationalism, which defined the "other" very much in religious terms… [T]he Muslim – Non-Muslim divide would completely dominate politics and lead to the tragedies of the expulsion of Muslims from the Balkans and Greek-Orthodox from Anatolia, as well as to the wholesale slaughter of the Ottoman Armenians.[16] Implementation of the Genocide Ethnic Armenian town in ruins. Planning In November 1914, the Ottoman Empire entered World War I on the side of the Central Powers. Ýsmail Enver, Minister of War, launched an unsuccessful military campaign against Russian forces in the Caucasus in hopes of capturing the city of Baku. His forces were routed at the Battle of Sarikamis, and many more of his men froze to death in the retreat. Returning to Istanbul, Enver largely blamed the Armenians living in the region for actively siding with the Russians.[19] By 1914, Ottoman authorities had already begun a propaganda drive to present Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire as a threat to the country's security. An Ottoman naval officer in the War Office described the planning: In order to justify this enormous crime the requisite propaganda material was thoroughly prepared in Istanbul. [It included such statements as] "the Armenians are in league with the enemy. They will launch an uprising in Istanbul, kill off the Ittihadist leaders and will succeed in opening the straits [of the Dardanelles]."[20] On the night of 24 April 1915, the Ottoman government rounded up and imprisoned an estimated 250 Armenian intellectuals.[21] Armenian intellectuals were arrested and later executed en masse by Ottoman authorities on the night of April 24, 1915. Legislation, May 29 Further information: Tehcir Law In May 1915, Mehmed Talat Pasha requested that the cabinet and grand vizier legalize the deportations of the Armenians of Anatolia. On 29 May 1915, the CUP Central Committee passed the Temporary Law of Deportation (Tehcir Law), giving the Ottoman government and military authorization to deport anyone it "sensed" as a threat to national security.[22] Several months later, the Temporary Law of Expropriation and Confiscation was passed, stating that all property, including land, livestock, and homes belonging to Armenians, was to be confiscated by the authorities. Ottoman parliamentary representative Ahmed Riza protested the legislation: It is unlawful to designate the Armenian assets as "abandoned goods" for the Armenians, the proprietors, did not abandon their properties voluntarily; they were forcibly, compulsorily removed from their domiciles and exiled. Now the government through its efforts is selling their goods… If we are a constitutional regime functioning in accordance with constitutional law we can't do this. This is atrocious. Grab my arm, eject me from my village, then sell my goods and properties, such a thing can never be permissible. Neither the conscience of the Ottomans nor the law can allow it.[23] The confiscation of Armenian property and the slaughter of Armenians that ensued upon the law's enactment outraged much of the western world. While the Ottoman Empire's wartime allies offered little protest, a wealth of German and Austrian historical documents has since come to attest to the witnesses' horror at the killings and mass starvation of Armenians.[24][25][26] In the United States, The New York Times reported almost daily on the mass murder of the Armenian people, describing the process as "systematic", "authorized" and "organized by the government." Theodore Roosevelt would later characterize this as "the greatest crime of the war."[27] Labor battalions With the passage of Tehcir Law, Enver ordered that all Armenians in the Ottoman forces be disarmed, demobilized and assigned to labor battalions (Turkish: amele taburlari). Many of the Armenian recruits were executed by Ottoman squads known as chetes.[28] Some of the Armenian recruits were utilized as laborers (hamals), though they too would ultimately be executed.[29] The Special Organization (Teþkilat-ý Mahsusa) Main articles: Teskilati Mahsusa and Special Organization (Ottoman Empire) While there was an official 'special organization' founded in December 1911 by the Ottoman government, a second organization that participated in what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki.[30] This organization adopted its name in 1913 and functioned like a special forces outfit.[31] Later in 1914, the Ottoman government influenced the direction the special organization was to take by releasing criminals from central prisons to be the central elements of this newly formed special organization.[32] According to the Mazhar commissions attached to the tribunal as soon as November 1914, 124 criminals were released from Pimian prison. Many other releases followed; in Ankara a few months later, 49 criminals were released from its central prison.[citation needed] Little by little from the end of 1914 to the beginning of 1915, hundreds, then thousands of prisoners were freed to form the members of this organization. Later, they were charged to escort the convoys of Armenian deportees.[33] Vehib, commander of the Ottoman Third Army, called those members of the special organization, the "butchers of the human species." [34] Process and camps of deportation See also: Armenian casualties of deportations The remaining bones of the Armenians of Erzinjan.The Armenians were marched out to the Syrian town of Deir ez-Zor and the surrounding desert. A good deal of evidence suggests that the Ottoman government did not provide any facilities or supplies to sustain the Armenians during their deportation, nor when they arrived.[35] By August 1915, The New York Times reported that "the roads and the Euphrates are strewn with corpses of exiles, and those who survive are doomed to certain death. It is a plan to exterminate the whole Armenian people."[36] Ottoman troops escorting the Armenians not only allowed others to rob, kill, and rape the Armenians, but often participated in these activities themselves.[35] Deprived of their belongings and marched into the desert, hundreds of thousands of Armenians perished. " Naturally, the death rate from starvation and sickness is very high and is increased by the brutal treatment of the authorities, whose bearing toward the exiles as they are being driven back and forth over the desert is not unlike that of slave drivers. With few exceptions no shelter of any kind is provided and the people coming from a cold climate are left under the scorching desert sun without food and water. Temporary relief can only be obtained by the few able to pay officials.[35] " Major concentration campsIt is believed that 25 major concentration camps existed, under the command of Þükrü Kaya, one of the right hands of Talat Pasha.[37] The majority of the camps were situated near modern Iraqi and Syrian frontiers, and some were only temporary transit camps.[37] Others, such as Radjo, Katma, and Azaz, are said to have been used only temporarily, for mass graves; these sites were vacated by Fall 1915.[37] Some authors also maintain that the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, Del-El, and Ra's al-'Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days.[37] Though nearly all the camps, including the primary sites, were open air, the remainder of the mass killing in minor camps was not limited to direct killings, but also to mass burning,[38] poisoning[39] and drowning.[40] Foreign corroboration and reaction Hundreds of eyewitnesses, including the neutral United States and the Ottoman Empire's own allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary, recorded and documented numerous acts of state-sponsored massacres. Many foreign officials offered to intervene on behalf of the Armenians, including Pope Benedict XV, only to be turned away by Ottoman government officials who claimed they were "retaliating against a pro-Russian fifth column."[41] On May 24, 1915, the Triple Entente warned the Ottoman Empire that "In view of these new crimes of Turkey against humanity and civilization, the Allied Governments announce publicly to the Sublime Porte that they will hold personally responsible for these crimes all members of the Ottoman Government, as well as those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres."[42] The American Committee for Relief in the Near East (ACRNE, or "Near East Relief") was a charitable organization established to relieve the suffering of the peoples of the Near East.[43] The organization was championed by Henry Morgenthau, Sr., American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire. Morgenthau's eyewitness accounts of the mass slaughter of Armenians galvanized much support for ACRNE.[44] more here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: kendall Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:24 PM Not one person who was responsible for that genocide is now alive. So, who are they blaming? Turkey is a piece of real estate. I know there is such a thing as an "action in rem" but this is silly. I have a friend who speaks of the Japanese as "those people who gave us WW 2." He would never buy a Japanese car.That kind of logic drives me batty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:58 PM ONE time I agree with the Democrats, and think that the Bush Administration is incorrect, and AMOS tells me I am wrong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Don Firth Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:28 PM The current government of Turkey is not to blame for the Armenian genocide. In fact, Turkey is a whole different country from what it was then. And how many Turks who may have been involved in it are still alive? It would hardly make sense to try to start something like the Nuremberg war crimes trials, now would it? Yes. The Armenian genocide happened. It is a black spot on Turkey's history and always will be. So is the Holocaust a black spot in Germany's history. Slavery is a blot on the history of the United States and the history of a whole bunch of other countries. The Inquisition in many European countries, particularly Spain and Italy. The wiping out of the entire Aztec and Mayan civilizations by European invaders. Not to mention the other native peoples in the Americas. The atrocities the Roman Empire visited on the rest of Europe and the Mid-East. How many civilizations did Alexander the Great crush? If a person is leading a perfectly normal, productive life, gets along well with his or her neighbors, has many friends, and is generally regarded as a good citizen, would you condemn and vilify them because their grandfather was found to have been guilty of war crimes in a conflict that occurred nearly a century ago? These things happened. They're horrible. They are a blot on the history of the human species and they should be remembered to remind us of the lengths we are capable of going if we let our reptilian brains take over and rule our behavior. Or if the reptilian brains of our national leaders take over and we allow them to push us into following them in their murderous insanity. Or if we fail to stop them. The educational system of all countries should teach their students all of their history, the good, the bad, and the ugly, so they can be proud of their accomplishments, but at the same time, be humbled by the knowledge of where their country went wrong, so they can prevent it from happening again. What is the point of this House Resolution now? "Never forget!" Yes, never forget. But how long are we going to keep shoving it in the faces of the descendants of those who committed the atrocities when they—the descendents—had nothing to do with it themselves, and who, indeed, condemn those actions themselves? What is the point!?? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:28 PM Not one person who was responsible for that genocide is now alive. That's very likely also true of the Jewish and Gypsy Holocaust, and soon will be anyway. But if there was a government in Germany today that was dedicated to denying that the Holocaust had taken place, and a legal system that jailed people for insisting that it did, I think it would be relevant to challenge that in every available forum, including national parliaments. One thing that might help Turkey come to term with this would be for the genocide of Native Americans to receive some analogous formal recognition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Don Firth Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:37 PM I see a world in which everyone stands around all pointing at each other, shouting, "You're a monster!" "You're a monster!" "You're a monster!" Great! Let's all kill each other and prove the point. The only way this will ever lead to anything good is if we all say, "You're a monster! I'm a monster! We're all monsters! Now—what are we going to do about it? Let's talk it over and see if we can stop being monsters. Okay?" Okay? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:47 PM But what gets in the way of that is when people refuse to face up to the truth about the evil things their countries have got up to in the past. Or the present. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Amos Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:47 PM Bruce: I didn't tell you you were wrong. I just don't understand why the issue seems relevant to the present context. Who's pushing this declaration, and why now? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:56 PM A former partner of mine, a reasonably well known entertainment lawyer (Jewish by religion, Turkish by regional origin) once spent nearly a week trying to negotiate a deal for a client of his with an Armenian film producer. He returned to the office, saying "At last I understand why we tried to exterminate them"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:06 PM And perhaps that Armenian film producer, after negotiating with your partner, had said something on the same lines about the Jews and the Nazis that would have been equally acceptable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: GUEST,mg Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:17 PM I am very sympathetic to the Amenian situation and think I know one elderly surviver (many years ago..he was Armenian..did not say much..founded a seafood organization..) I don't know why Nancy Pelosi must proclaim this slaughter though. There should be academic forums etc...people to people..but Congress shouldn't proclaim this..not now, probably not ever.. but private citizens and scholars should. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM And if the German government were denying the Holocaust today, would you still say the same in relation to that, mg? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:23 PM Clearly the Turks did attempt genocide upon the Armenians in 1915. Okay. And their unwillingness to admit to it is quite shameful. As Amos and Don have asked, however, why is the US Congress choosing this time in history to make itself the conscience of Turkey over something that happened in 1915? Who is pushing for the House resolution and why? What is their motivation and purpose? Answer that and you might find out some interesting stuff. Most of all, I agree with Don's post: I see a world in which everyone stands around all pointing at each other, shouting, "You're a monster!" "You're a monster!" "You're a monster!" Great! Let's all kill each other and prove the point. The only way this will ever lead to anything good is if we all say, "You're a monster! I'm a monster! We're all monsters! Now—what are we going to do about it? Let's talk it over and see if we can stop being monsters. Okay?" Okay? Exactly. No one's hands are squeaky clean (as a nation) and we might as well all admit it and give up this obsession of condeming other people over stuff that was perpetrated by their daddy, their granddaddy or their great grandaddy's uncle. Sheesh! You'd think people could finally let go of the bitter past and move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: GUEST,mg Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:37 PM I don't know. What have we said aboutthe Cambodian slaughter? mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:45 PM It's been recognised as genocide. And of course there is no Cambodian government attempting to deny it took place, and throwing people in prison if they dare to say it did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:56 PM Magrath, why do you call my Jewish former partner a Nazi? Apart from recently, which nations have the Jews tried to exterminate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:57 PM Well, McGrath, actually the government that perpetrated it (the Khymer Rouge) is still denying responsibility or wrongdoing, they just aren't in charge anymore in Kampuchea...they're in exile. But I digress from what I think is the main point here. Let me expand slightly on what Don said... Let's all just STOP saying "You're a monster!" "You're a monster!" "You're a monster!" to various other people over stuff that happened in the past. Let's stop saying it to whites, Turks, men, Germans, Japanese, Russians, Americans, and all others who have once massacred (or at least oppressed) various other people for their own gain. Let's instead say, "Mistakes were clearly made by various people. We recognize those mistakes now. Hopefully we will not be so foolish as to make other such mistakes ourselves in the future in our righteous zeal over the sins of the past." That would be a good start towards a more peaceful world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:03 PM You misinterpret what I wrote, Richard - my point was, would "At last I understand why the Nazis tried to exterminate them" have been an acceptable thing for someone to say after being in a difficult negotiation with a Jew? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: M.Ted Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:59 AM I know why the issue has come before Congress. The American-Armenian community has been campaigning for the acknowledgement of the Armenian Genocide for most of the last century. They have finally gotten their message through to Congress. Most of you know little to nothing of The Armenian Genocide for the simple reason that the Turkish government has had standing, extensive, and very expensive campaign to keep the issue out of our public dialog. Our govt needed Turkey's cooperation during the cold war,and continues to need it today, so we have not disagreed with Turkey's position on the issue. I have, at times in the past, worked extensively with the Armenian-American community, and have met and talked with survivors of the genocides. There is a pall that hangs over their communities that is perhaps even darker than the one that hangs over Jewish communities, because their loss has had to be born alone. Til now, there has been an all pervasive denial of their loss. Even worse, any attempt at public dialog, even a simple letter to a newspaper, was met with immediate reaction from the Turkish Government. They simply want recognition. Why is this still a hot political issue today? Armenian was engaged in a war for independence from the Ottoman Empire, territories were drawn up in WWI related treaties, and there are issues related to those treaties that are still in dispute today. For Turkey, acknowledging the Genocide could jeopardize borders and territorial claims, and weaken their battle with Kurdish seperatists. The problems created by the collapse of the Ottoman Empire continue to plague us, from Palestine to Iran--and will, for a long time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 07 - 01:04 AM While I agree that endless blame is a cacophony of futility and gets nowhere, I am a little reluctant to forget what I have learned people are capable of--both good, and bad. Ignorig either side of the nature of the beast is asking for trouble. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:22 AM Well bb, I tend to agree with you on this one. Although most of the world agrees that the Turks committed genocide against the Armenians, I don't think the Turks would agree. It kinda puts the stamp of credibility on the issue and holds the Turks responsible. The timing is, of course, questionable. Why now? Maybe it bolsters the case for an independent Kurdistan. Maybe it tells the Turks that the U.S. will defend the Kurds in the same way the U.S. defends Israel. Maybe its because Armenia is often referred to as the cradle of Christendom and its just another extension of the modern day "crusade". Maybe they're picking sides so that the U.S. will have a bigger base of operation in the Middle East. Maybe they want control of the flow of natural gas and other untapped energy resources. Maybe this war will never end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Grab Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:41 AM The problem with Armenia is that, as BB's original article says, "the Ottoman Empire" is not the same as "Turkey". We might as well hold present-day Russia responsible for what the Tsars did, or present-day France for the actions of the French aristocracy. Apart from recently, which nations have the Jews tried to exterminate? It's only "recently" that the Jews have had their own nation and means of extermination. Unless you count the Exodus from Egypt, of course, in which case it was 20 years of continuous massacres according to the Bible. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM I've just finished reading a stunning novel about the impact that the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and its aftermath, had on ordinary Turkish people (Muslims, Christians, Armenians etc.). It's called 'Birds Without Wings' by Louis de Bernieres (author of 'Captain Corelli's Mandolin'). The novel covers many of the atrocious events from around that time - including the Armenian massacres, the Balkan Wars, The First World War and the Greco-Turkish War of the 1920s. Episodically, throughout the book, the perspective shifts from the every day lives, sufferings and tragedies of a small community near modern day Fethiye to the career of Mustafa Kemal ('Ataturk' - the founder of modern Turkey) - a prime-mover in many of these events. I recommend this novel for its 'Tolstoyan' sweep and its perspective on historical events which are, perhaps, not as well known as they ought to be - but are certainly, as this thread indicates, becoming topical again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:17 AM Hmmm. Well, I can see good points to both sides of this argument. More or less what Amos said, I guess... If the Turks get upset enough over this that it causes them to be less cooperative with Mr Bush's future war plans in the Middle East, I will not be disappointed. Grab, you stated a very good point that seems to normally completely escape people when you said.... "It's only "recently" that the Jews have had their own nation and means of extermination (of others)." Bloody right! They have had the actual means of conducting extermination of others on an organized national basis only since 1948 (discounting the ancient Biblical time of the Exodus, as you pointed out). Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Americans, and Belgians...etc...have had those means on the other hand for a long, long time. It's a little misleading to say, "Oh, we never DID anything like that to anyone," when one simply was not in the position to DO it, is it? The Jews, as a people, were not in such a position from the time Rome scattered them out of Judea...until 1948. History has shown again and again that ALL nations of people are quite capable of committing atrocities on other people when and if they are in the position to do so and when and if they have the temporary motivation to do so, for some reason. As I've said before, no one has completely clean hands when it comes to this sort of thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 07 - 12:08 PM And I STILL don't know why this issue was identified, and elevated to prominence in the media, at this time. It's like suddenly making a huge noise about the State of Massachusetts not apologizing for the Salem witch trials, just at a time when the incumbent governor is seeking re-election or some such. Why this issue? Why now? Who's pushing this one? Whose baby is that? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: M.Ted Date: 17 Oct 07 - 01:34 PM As to Grab's point--The Russia of today is still subject to laws, treaties, and other decisions made by the Czar--and of course, and in France, the Napoleonic Code has not been undone, despite the coming and goings of Empires, Monarchies, and Republics--succeeding governments, no matter how divergent, assume the assets and liabilities of their predecessors. In that sense, Turkey is a continuation of the Ottoman Empire. But also,Turkish Constitutional government was established in 1876--so one could say that this isn't even an inherited problem--if you liked arguing, anyway;-) More important is the fact that the treaties that divided the Ottoman Empire after WW1 set aside a lot of territory for Armenia, which was subsequently occupied by Attaturk's army, and, in violation of those treaties, has become part of Turkey. Please don't anyone try to say that those treaties and their related aren't important any more-- The Palestinians and Kurds are still fighting to get what they were given in those treaties-- Given |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM Amos, The DEMOCRATS are pushing the issue- Bush objects, for the same reason YOU do. "The Republic of Turkey and the Armenian Genocide Main article: Denial of the Armenian Genocide The Republic of Turkey's formal stance is that the deaths of Armenians during the "relocation" or "deportation" cannot aptly be deemed "genocide." This point has been contended with a plethora of diverging justifications: that the killings were not deliberate or were not governmentally orchestrated, that the killings were justified because Armenians posed a Russian-sympathizing threat as a cultural group, that Armenians merely starved, or any of various characterizations recalling marauding "Armenian gangs."[101][102][103] Some suggestions seek to invalidate the genocide on semantic or anachronistic grounds (the word "genocide" was not coined until 1943). Turkish World War I casualty figures are often cited to mitigate the effect of the number of Armenian dead.[104] The website of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey currently features a section entitled Archive Documents about the Atrocities and Genocide Inflicted upon Turks by Armenians, suggesting that the Turks of Anatolia experienced a genocide at the hands of the Armenians. The website of the Turkish General Staff also offers many of its own publications intended to bolster denial of the Armenian Genocide. One such example defines the Armenians as "an incapable, parasite and greedy nation that can live only at another nation's expense."[105] Turkish governmental sources have asserted that the historically-demonstrated "tolerance of Turkish people"[106] itself renders the Armenian Genocide an impossibility. One military document leverages 11th century history to disprove the Armenian Genocide: "It was the Seljuk Turks who saved the Armenians that came under the Turkish domination in 1071 from the Byzantine persecution and granted them the right to live as a man should."[106] A Der Spiegel article addressed this modern Turkish conception of history thus: "Would you admit to the crimes of your grandfathers, if these crimes didn't really happen?" asked ambassador Öymen. But the problem lies precisely in this question, says Hrant Dink, publisher and editor-in-chief of the Istanbul-based Armenian weekly Agos. Turkey's bureaucratic elite have never really shed themselves of the Ottoman tradition — in the perpetrators, they see their fathers, whose honor they seek to defend. This tradition instils a sense of identity in Turkish nationalists — both from the left and the right, and it is passed on from generation to generation through the school system. This tradition also requires an antipole against which it could define itself. Since the times of the Ottoman Empire, religious minorities have been pushed into this role.[107] Public prosecutors have utilized Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code prohibiting "insulting Turkishness" to silence some Turkish intellectuals who spoke of atrocities endured by Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman Empire.[108] Turkish state officials say that no one is currently incarcerated for expressing their ideas, and that the law may soon be amended.[109] The modern Turkish government continues to protest the formal recognition of the genocide by other countries. Open University of Israel scholar Yair Auron, in his The Banality of Denial, has addressed the various means employed by the Turkish government to obscure the reality of the Armenian Genocide: Despite the vast amount of evidence that points to the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide, denial of this genocide by successive regimes in Turkey has continued from 1915 to present… Out of political expediency, other governments, including that of the United States and Israel, have aided and abetted Turkey in its rewriting of history. In the 1960s, efforts were made to influence journalists, teachers, and public officials by telling "the other side of the story." Foreign scholars were encouraged to revise the record of the Genocide, presenting an account largely blaming the Armenians or, in another version, wartime conditions… The Turkish government has also attempted to exclude any mention of the Genocide in textbooks and to prevent its inclusion in Holocaust and human rights curricula. The Turkish government has attempted to disrupt academic conferences and public discussions of the genocide, notably a conference in Tel Aviv in 1982, with demands backed up with threats to the safety of Jews in Turkey… Since the 1980s, the Turkish government has supported the establishment of "institutes" affiliated with respected universities, whose apparent purpose is to further research on Turkish history and culture, but which also tend to act in ways that further denial. The volume and extent of these activities have been described by one scholar as "an industry of denial" and by another as "an industry of denialism."[110]" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Oct 07 - 03:31 PM The San Remo[1] Conference was an international meeting of the post-World War I Allied Supreme Council, held in Sanremo, Italy, from 19 to 26 April 1920. It was attended by the four Principal Allied Powers of World War I who were represented by the Prime Ministers of Britain (David Lloyd George), France (Alexandre Millerand) and Italy (Francesco Nitti) and by the Ambassador of Japan (K. Matsui). It determined the allocation of Class "A" League of Nations mandates for administration of the former Ottoman-ruled lands of the Middle East. The decisions of the conference mainly confirmed those of the First Conference of London (February 1920), and broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917. Britain received the mandate for Palestine and Iraq, while France gained control of Syria including present-day Lebanon. The San Remo Resolution adopted on 25 April 1920 incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917[2] and Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations. It was the basic document upon which the Mandate for Palestine was constructed. The Resolution was a binding agreement between these Powers. The precise boundaries of all territories were left unspecified, to "be determined by the Principal Allied Powers"[3] and were not completely finalized until four years later. The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Sèvres was the peace treaty that the Allies of World War I, not including the United States, and the Ottoman Empire signed on 10 August 1920 after World War I. Representatives from the governments of the parties involved signed the treaty in Sèvres, France.[1], which ceded territory to Greece, a wider Armenia and also provided for a possibly independent Kurdistan. Ýstanbul and other parts of Turkey were occupied by several Allied powers. The treaty had four signatories on behalf of the Ottoman government. The treaty was not sent to Ottoman Parliament for ratification, as that body was adjourned on February 12, 1920 and abolished on March 18, 1920. It was endorsed by Sultan Mehmed VI but vigourously rejected by the Turkish national movement under Mustafa Kemal Pasha, who successfully fought the Turkish War of Independence and forced the former wartime Allies to return to the negotiating table. The parties signed and ratified the superseding Treaty of Lausanne in 1923. The Democratic Republic of Armenia (Wilsonian Armenia) and the Kingdom of Hejaz were to be granted independence. A Kurdistan region was scheduled to have a referendum to decide its fate, which, according to Section III Articles 62–64, was to include the Mosul Province. The United Kingdom was to acquire Iraq and Palestine, which were later assigned again under League of Nations Mandates. France acquired Lebanon and an enlarged Syria, which were later assigned again under League of Nations Mandate. Greece: The armistice of Mudros, followed by the occupation of Izmir, established Greek rule in those areas on May 21, 1919. This was followed by the declaration of a protectorate on July 30, 1922. The treaty assigned the key port of Ýzmir (Smyrna) to Greece, along with most of Eastern Thrace and a part of Western Anatolia. The Treaty of Sèvres was vigorously rejected by the Turkish national movement. Led by Mustafa Kemal Pasha, they split with the monarchy based in Constantinople, it set up a rival government based in Ankara. In course of the Turkish War of Independence, they successfully resisted Greek, Armenian and French forces and secured a territory similar to that of present-day Turkey. The Turkish national movement developed its own international relations by the Treaty of Moscow with the Soviet Union on 16 March 1921, the Accord of Ankara with France putting an end to the Franco-Turkish War, and the Treaty of Alexandropol and the Treaty of Kars fixing the eastern borders. These events forced the former Allies of World War I to return back to the negotiating table with the Turks and in 1923 negotiate the Treaty of Lausanne, which replaced the Treaty of Sèvres and recovered large territory in Anatolia and Thrace for the Turks. Negotiations performed during Conference of Lausanne which Ýsmet Ýnönü was the lead negotiator for Turkey and Eleftherios Venizelos was his Greek counterpart. Negotiations took many months. On October 20, 1922 the peace conference was reopened, and after strenuous debates, it was once again interrupted by Turkish protest on February 4, 1923. After reopening on April 23, and more protest by Kemal's government, the treaty was signed on July 24 after eight months of arduous negotiation by allies such as US Admiral Mark L. Bristol, who served as United States High Commissioner and championed Turkish efforts. The Treaty of Lausanne (July 24, 1923) was a peace treaty signed in Lausanne that settled the Anatolian part of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire by annulment of the Treaty of Sèvres signed by the Ottoman Empire as the consequences of the Turkish Independence War between Allies of World War I and Grand National Assembly of Turkey (Turkish national movement). After the expulsion of the Greek forces by the Turkish army under the command of Mustafa Kemal (later Kemal Atatürk), the newly-founded Turkish government rejected the recently signed Treaty of Sèvres. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Ebbie Date: 17 Oct 07 - 03:49 PM Years ago I read a number of things that Michael Arlen Jr wrote about the Armenian genocide. I was appalled- what a weak word - at what he recounted, things that are well documented. The actions by the then Turkish government are still clear in Armenians' minds and in their history. It is only now that they appear to be successfully getting the recognition of the facts before the world. I think it is entirely relevant. To coin a phrase: If not NOW, WHEN? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 07 - 03:52 PM Well, it's clearly opportune now, isn't it? But for whom? That is the real question. I don't think these things happen just by accident. Uh-uh. They are usually carefully orchestrated and timed, as Amos has suggested, and intended to accomplish something for someone in the current political scene, and that's why they happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Barry Finn Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:13 PM Those people who suffered genocide have the right to demand to the world that they suffered it & have it recognized by the world that it happened to them, it doesn't matter when it happened. Mass murder, wide scale slaughter, horrid atrocities are not genocide. No nation wants to utter the word "genocide". Genocide, once declared takes on a whole world of actions & responsibilities. Shout anything you like & the world doesn't need to or have to listen, shout genocide & all have to stand & hear & many are commited to act. Tell a Jew that genocide didn't happen, there are even laws pretaining to this, it's the same when you tell an Armenian that it was very bad, it was slaughter, murder, IT WASN'T, it was GENOCIDE & they have earned the right to shout it from the tops of mountains so that all can look at them & acknowledge that they suffered it. It doesn't matter what Turkey is today or who they are as a people or who's side of what war they are backing. They need to recognize that it occured, they need to give that valadation to the people whose families & ancesters suffered it at their hands, it it a large part of the Armenian history now, it's part of their culture & it's become a part of their DNA, it is now an unwanted piece of what they are. We all saw what happened in Dufar & Rewanda when all where to slow to say the word genocide, 100 yrs later it won't make a difference to others but they still need to be able to let the world know that they suffered it even if the world won't admit that it happened on their watch & they watched while it happened, the world 100 yrs from now will need to know it happened if they'll want to know who they are & their history as well as the history of those that commited it & of the history of those that watched it happen & did nothing to stop it, & of course the history of those that did fight to stop it. It's time that we as a nation stood on the side of the victums that have been asking for this recognition since it's happening, espically when we were guilty of the same crime, it is our duty as a past partner in genocide that we honor it's victums where ever they are, that is required of us because of the role we played in our past as it should be with any nation that's has a past tainted by a history of commiting genocide, in part's it a payment we owe to the world for commiting such an act. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:49 PM Well, BB, you surface for a minute and make a bland generality blaming it on Democrats, but that doesn't answer the question "who" or the question "why?" and "why now?". Without some insight into that face of it, it is a useless wave of the arms to blame it on a party. I expect it is a small number of people, and i don't care what party they subscribe to as much as understanding what they are up to here. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:59 PM 1. I was not blaming it on a party, just noting that in this case I was agreeing with theDemocrats, and YOU were agreeing with the Bush Administration. 2. I don't care WHO is bringing it up, but the editorial I posted was talking about Pelosi bringing it to a vote over the objections of the Bush Administration. 3. YOU have consistantly made 'bland generalities' blaming much on the Bush Administration. IN THIS CASE, I consider that the Dems ( regardless of their obvious political motives (as usual) ) are correct in bringing it up. I consider that the Bush Administration ( in this case) is WRONG in objecting to pointing it out, and SHOULD hold our allies to a higher standard ( as YOU have held the US to a hugher standard than other nations.). It WAS genocide, and the backpedaling on the part of the Great Powers after WW I contributed to the Holacaust, and the genocides afterwards in Rwanda, Cambodia, Darfur, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:30 PM Washington Post: Hoyer: Dems 'revisiting positions' on 'genocide' resolution Story Highlights NEW: Majority Leader says a number of Dems are "revisiting their own positions" Turkey is upset about World War I "genocide" resolution in Congress House resolution calls killing of Armenians "genocide" Incirlik Air Base is key point for U.S. military supply of Iraq mission WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Some Democrats appear to be wavering on a highly contentious House resolution labeling Turkey's treatment of Armenians in World War I as genocide. Turkey, a longtime U.S. ally and NATO partner, was incensed by the resolution calling the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks genocide and threatened to block access to Incirlik Air Base after the resolution passed a House committee vote. The base, in southern Turkey near Syria, is a major resupply center for U.S. operations in Iraq and elsewhere in the Mideast and Asia. The Pentagon is preparing to set up new supply routes for troops in Iraq if Turkey cuts off U.S. access to the strategically important Incirlik, military officials said Tuesday. Ankara acknowledges the killings of Armenians during World War I but vehemently objects to the "genocide" label. The House Foreign Affairs Committee last week adopted the nonbinding resolution. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she would bring the measure to a vote of the full House sometime next month. But the Bush administration urged Congress to drop the issue, and some leading Democrats urged Pelosi not to bring it to the floor. Majority Leader Steny Hoyer signaled Tuesday that the vote might be put off. "I said I thought we would bring this up prior to us leaving here," said Hoyer of Maryland. "I have not changed on that, although I would be less than candid to say that there are a number of people who are revisiting their own positions. We will have to determine where everybody is." Democratic Rep. Ike Skelton, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, announced his opposition to the resolution last week. And Democratic Reps. Alcee Hastings of Florida and John Tanner of Tennessee, both members of the U.S. House delegation to NATO, urged Pelosi to reconsider in a letter released Tuesday. "More than half of the cargo flown into Iraq and Afghanistan comes through Incirlik Air Base, and this base would be a key component of any plans for redeployment of our troops in the future," they wrote. Lt. Gen. Carter Ham, the director of operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Pentagon planners are looking at "a broad range of options" to keep food, fuel and ammunition flowing to U.S. troops in Iraq if Turkey blocks Incirlik. "We're confident that we'll find ways to do that," Ham told reporters at the Pentagon. "There's likely to be some increased cost and some other implications for that, and obviously we'd prefer to maintain the access that we have." Defense Secretary Robert Gates echoed lawmakers' concerns last week. "About 70 percent of all air cargo going into Iraq goes through Turkey. ... About a third of the fuel that they consume goes through Turkey or comes from Turkey," Gates said. He also said that 95 percent of the Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protective vehicles, or MRAPs, being deployed in Iraq are flown through Turkey. The vehicles are built to withstand roadside bombs. See Incirlik's key location » The U.S. military issued a "warning order" a few days ago to ensure that alternative air crews, planes, fuel and routes are lined up if Turkey stops or restricts U.S. access to Incirlik, a source said. Jordan and Kuwait are among the alternatives the United States is considering. Some fear pursuit of the resolution would also embolden the Turks to attack Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq which could further complicate Iraqi stability, U.S. officials said. Incirlik offers 10,000- and 9,000-foot runways and 57 hardened aircraft shelters, according Globalsecurity.org, a source of background information about military issues. Globalsecurity said Incirlik has become a hub for cargo shipments to Iraq, taking over for Rhein-Main Air Base in Germany because it is closer to Iraq, reducing the strain on troops and aircraft. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:08 PM Hmmmm.... so, what, you think this was timed by some Democrats to undermine the war effort by disafffecting the Turkish government? Sounds like an Iranian plot. :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:12 PM Perhaps the Democrats were hoping to embarrass Mr Bush. If so, they have succeeded. It would be great if the Turks could be persuaded to admit to having committed genocide against the Armenians. It would also be great if the USA could be persuaded to admit to having committed genocide against the Vietnamese and the Native Americans (among others), but I guess that is a matter outside of this particular discussion. It would be great if the USA could be persuaded to admit to having committed unprovoked aggression and crimes against humanity in the Middle East too. My point being, the Turks may well feel that the USA has more to apologize for right now than they do. And they may be quite right about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: M.Ted Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:29 PM Here is and article that explains the history of this and similar resolutions--New Republic Article on Armenian Genocide and Turkish Lobbying Perhaps it will help Amos and Little Hawk-- For clarification--the Bill started out more than eight years ago as House Bill 398 which became House Resolution 596 and is now House Resolution 106 -- The full text is at the link above, but the heart of the resolution is this, hardly inflamatory, declaration: The House of Representatives-- 1.calls upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide and the consequences of the failure to enforce the judgments of the Turkish courts against the responsible officials; 2.calls upon the President in the President's annual message commemorating the Armenian Genocide issued on or about April 24 to characterize the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1,500,000 Armenians as genocide and to recall the proud history of United States intervention in opposition to the Armenian Genocide; and 3.calls upon the President in the President's annual message commemorating the Armenian Genocide to state that the modern day Republic of Turkey did not conduct the Armenian Genocide, which was perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire. And, Bearded Bruce--thank you for opening this thread, and thank you for keeping it going-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:40 PM "It's like suddenly making a huge noise about the State of Massachusetts not apologizing for the Salem witch trials." If they were putting people in jail in Massachusetts for mentioning the Salem witch trials, and journalists writing about them were liable to get murdered, that would give the whole thing contemporary relevance. Or, as has been mentioned, if one of the nations which ran the slave trade was today denying that it ever existed, and coming down hard on anyone who had the effrontery to say different. Litle Hawk wrote, up the thread a bit, "We recognize those mistakes now." Indeed, roll on the day when that will be true. But we haven't got there yet. And unfortunately that is especially so in the case of the Turkish Government and the Armenian genocide - but let no one believe for a minute that Turkey is alone in denying crimes, both historic and present, or of course in having been guilty of such crimes, including genocide. Of course the present and continuing crimes, where the people responsible are still in power, are the ones that should be top of the agenda. (Last night I was watching Ghosts of Abu Ghraib" on TV.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Ebbie Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:23 AM "...It would also be great if the USA could be persuaded to admit to having committed genocide against the Vietnamese..." Little Hawk LH, that's a bit beyond the pale, a charge not justified in any sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:16 PM Genocide isn't actually the right word in the case of Vietnam. From The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide: "...genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such..." Then it lists a number of acts, such as a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part In the case of Vietnam the activities carried out by US military would fit the definition - but the intent "to destroy in whole or part a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" wasn't motivating the killing. Not that that would have made much difference to the people being killed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:36 PM Well, yes, that was kind of my point...I think the Vietnamese in the countryside where the Agent Orange was being dropped and bored helicopter gunners were machine-gunning peasants and livestock from their passing choppers might have seen it as a genocidal war. But it's all a matter of opinion, right? Certainly the USA forces were not officially sent on a mission to kill all the Vietnamese. Still, they did a pretty good job at killing a very significant number of them, many of whom were noncombatants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:50 PM Death Tolls for the Major Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:33 PM McGrath, Good post, even if it does ignore WW I and II. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:54 PM They are on the other page of the same site, together with the Russian Civil Warvand Stalin's little efforts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:55 PM Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:24 PM I've been looking round that site - a pretty massive project. Here is the front page to "Historical Atlas of the Twentieth Century" - put together by a librarian called Matthew White - who comes up on his profile page with the excellent advice "never trust any information without double checking." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:24 PM from the Washington Post: Pelosi's Armenian Gambit By Charles Krauthammer Friday, October 19, 2007; Page A21 There are three relevant questions concerning the Armenian genocide. (a) Did it happen? (b) Should the U.S. House of Representatives be expressing itself on this now? (c) Was House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's determination to bring this to a vote, knowing that it risked provoking Turkey into withdrawing crucial assistance to American soldiers in Iraq, a conscious (columnist Thomas Sowell) or unconscious (blogger Mickey Kaus) attempt to sabotage the U.S. war effort? The answers are: (a) Yes, unequivocally. (b) No, unequivocally. (c) God only knows. That between 1 million and 1.5 million Armenians were brutally and systematically massacred starting in 1915 in a deliberate genocidal campaign is a matter of simple historical record. If you really want to deepen and broaden awareness of that historical record, you should support the establishment of the Armenian Genocide Museum and Memorial in Washington. But to pass a declarative resolution in the House of Representatives in the middle of a war in which we are inordinately dependent on Turkey would be the height of irresponsibility. The atrocities happened 90 years ago. Not a single living Turk under the age of 102 is in any way culpable. Even Mesrob Mutafyan, patriarch of the Armenian community in Turkey, has stated that his community is opposed to the resolution, correctly calling it the result of domestic American politics. Turkey is already massing troops near its border with Iraq, threatening a campaign against Kurdish rebels that could destabilize the one stable front in Iraq. The same House of Representatives that has been complaining loudly about the lack of armored vehicles for our troops is blithely jeopardizing relations with the country through which 95 percent of the new heavily armored vehicles are now transiting on the way to saving American lives in Iraq. And for what? To feel morally clean? How does this work? Pelosi says: "Genocide still exists, and we saw it in Rwanda; we see it now in Darfur." Precisely. And what exactly is she doing about Darfur? Nothing. Pronouncing yourself on a genocide committed 90 years ago by an empire that no longer exists is Pelosi's demonstration of seriousness about existing, ongoing genocide? Indeed, the Democratic Party she's leading in the House has been trying for months to force a precipitous withdrawal from Iraq that could very well lead to genocidal civil war. This prospect has apparently not deterred her in the least. "Friends don't let friends commit crimes against humanity," explained Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, which approved the Armenian genocide resolution. This must rank among the most stupid statements ever uttered by a member of Congress, admittedly a very high bar. Does Smith know anything about the history of the Armenian genocide? Of the role played by Henry Morgenthau? As U.S. ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Morgenthau tried desperately to intervene on behalf of the Armenians. It was his consular officials deep within Turkey who (together with missionaries) brought out news of the genocide. And it was Morgenthau who helped tell the world about it in his writings. Near East Relief, the U.S. charity strongly backed by President Woodrow Wilson and the Congress, raised and distributed an astonishing $117 million in food, clothing and other vital assistance that, wrote historian Howard Sachar, "quite literally kept an entire nation alive." So much for the United States letting friends commit crimes against humanity. And at the time, the Ottomans were not friends. They were an enemy power in World War I, allied with Germany. Now the Turks are indeed friends, giving us indispensable logistical help in our war against today's premier perpetrators of crimes against humanity -- al-Qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan. Friends don't gratuitously antagonize friends who are helping to fight the world's foremost war criminals. So why has Pelosi been so committed to bringing this resolution to the floor? (At least until a revolt within her party and the prospect of defeat caused her to waver.) Because she is deeply unserious about foreign policy. This little stunt gets added to the ledger: first, her visit to Syria, which did nothing but give legitimacy to Bashar al-Assad, who continues to engage in the systematic murder of pro-Western Lebanese members of parliament; then, her letter to Costa Rica's ambassador, just nine days before a national referendum, aiding and abetting opponents of a very important free-trade agreement with the United States. Is the Armenian resolution her way of unconsciously sabotaging the U.S. war effort, after she had failed to stop it by more direct means? I leave that question to psychiatry. Instead, I fall back on Krauthammer's razor (with apologies to Occam): In explaining any puzzling Washington phenomenon, always choose stupidity over conspiracy, incompetence over cunning. Anything else gives them too much credit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:32 PM Heh! That is a pretty amusing article, BB. I tend to agree with a great deal of what Mr Krauthammer (*shudder*!! what a name!) says...although, oddly enough, he is a strong supporter of the USA's War in Iraq whereas I'm totally against it and have been from day 1. He makes some very good points regarding the attempted House Resolution on the Armenian Genocide. Incompetence? Political gamesmanship? A bit of both? I'd be inclined to pick the 3rd possibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:42 PM Congress could stop the War in Iraq by direct means if they wanted to...simply by refusing to authorize any more funding of the war. Kucinich has pointed that out over and over again. I don't believe for a moment that the main machinery of the Democratic Party including Nancy Pelosi has any intention of stopping that war, and I think that's where Krauthammer is mistaken in some of his assumptions....but I do think they'd be quite happy to cause George Bush some problems and embarrassments before the next election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM What's a little genocide between friends, after all? Everybody killed in them would have been dead by now, in any case... No use crying over split blood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Barry Finn Date: 20 Oct 07 - 01:47 AM If the Jews got no commendation from the world by having all nations declare that Germany commited genocide against them & they were still waiting for Germany to admit to Genocide & the US to back them on it but the only thing blocking it was that Germany is now an ally, I'd think that Jews would rightfully be outraged. "If you can't do the right thing when it's a bad time you're doing a bad thing at the wrong time." (me) "It doesn't count to stand up for something if you can't be counted to get off your ass to do it" (me, again) It doesn't matter that Turkey is an ally. An ally doesn't bully a buddy with threats. A friend doesn't put a friend in an awkward possition to gets it's way with a demand. Let Turkey go, leave them behind, if this is how they behave I would think that they'd not be a welcoming sight to the EU either. "Political Blackmail" is as criminal as Blackmail, no matter who's commiting it. You wouldn't think that we could fuck up the Mid East any worst than we already have but we can. Give Turkey a free hand & not slap it? That's like let a freind drive drunk because he's driving your car & not his own. Not using much logic here. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Barry Finn Date: 20 Oct 07 - 01:51 AM Sorry, that should read "That's like letting a fiend/friend drive drunk because he's driving your car & not his own" (me, again) Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM Its time to set the history books right and Turkey should at least admit that the Ottoman Empire committed acts of genocide against the Armenian people. It is not only Turkey who should be blamed, however. No allied power came to the defense of the Armenians. Google armenia 'images' and have a read. "After the successful obliteration of the people of historic Armenia during the Armenian Genocide, the Turks demolished any remnants of Armenian cultural heritage including priceless masterpieces of ancient architecture, old libraries and archives. The Turks even leveled entire cities such as the once thriving Kharpert, Van and the ancient capital at Ani, to remove all traces of the three thousand year old civilization." (Genocide article) (genocide photo) Genocide is not just about numbers. Its about the erradication of a culture and Hitler did indeed use the Armenian example as a blueprint for his attempt to destroy Poland and the Jewish culture.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: pdq Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM ...from the site shown above: "But there was a big problem. The traditional historic homeland of Armenia lay right in the path of their plans to expand eastward. And on that land was a large population of Christian Armenians totaling some two million persons, making up about 10 percent of Turkey's overall population. Along with the Young Turk's newfound 'Turanism' there was a dramatic rise in Islamic fundamentalist agitation throughout Turkey. Christian Armenians were once again branded as infidels (non-believers in Islam). Young Islamic extremists, sometimes leading to violence, staged anti-Armenian demonstrations. During one such outbreak in 1909, two hundred villages were plundered and over 30,000 persons massacred in the Cilicia district on the Mediterranean coast. Throughout Turkey, sporadic local attacks against Armenians continued unchecked over the next several years. There were also big cultural differences between Armenians and Turks. The Armenians had always been one of the best-educated communities within the old Turkish Empire. Armenians were the professionals in society, the businessmen, lawyers, doctors and skilled craftsmen. And they were more open to new scientific, political and social ideas from the West (Europe and America). Children of wealthy Armenians went to Paris, Geneva or even to America to complete their education." Yes, the problem comes from Islam and it's need to convert or kill anyone who will not cooperate. Islam keeps most of it's followers as close to a 6th Century life style as possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Ebbie Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:20 PM Kind of like the Amish, huh. (joke, OK?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:39 PM Odd. I know quite a few Muslims here in Ontario, Canada, and not one of them has shown the least desire to live a "6th Century lifestyle"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 07 - 07:13 PM Now pdq can explain how the Moslems were responsible for the Holocaust of Jews and Gypsies... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: pdq Date: 20 Oct 07 - 07:18 PM McRath of Hollow: somtimes you are a complete fuckin' moron |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:23 PM Well, that could probably be said of all of us...sometimes. Except mayyyybe... Pierre Trudeau? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Greg B Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:40 PM Of course we have to give the Ottoman empire one thing. If it weren't for them, none of us would ever be able to put our feet up. To hell with the theory of relativity, these guys invented comfortable seating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: M.Ted Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:09 AM The Cilician Massacres of 1909 were politically motivated, not religiously motivated. To such degree as it can be known, the killings were done both by the Young Turks (who were secular reformers, and had actually overthrown the Sultan with the assistance of the Armenians), and by partisans who were under the command of the deposed Sultan. PDQ--you are proof of the failure of modern education--you never learned your history, and know next to nothing about religion. You aren't even very good at looking things up--you just cutting and paste from the first website that comes up-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:31 AM Politicians use religion to divide and conquer people. The main destructive impulse is generally the political objectives involved, and the religious divisions in a community become inflamed because of big political-financial games. To blame it ON religion is facile. Religion is not the origin of the problem. Politics and economics are the origin of the problem. When you have people scheming as to how they can take over markets, land, and resources, that's when you have a fight...and if religion can be used as an excuse for that fight, it is used, but the fight does not generally stem from the religion itself. It just makes a darned good excuse, once the fight gets going. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Bonzo3legs Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:15 AM I can't read all this nonsense, I'm off to have some fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:31 AM Sometimes no doubt. Not then. The point I was making is that genocide isn't a practice restricted to Moslems, and that the worst examples in history can be associated with nations that have been Christian for thousand years and more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:11 PM "...it's need to convert or kill anyone who will not cooperate." This is not the exclusive domain of Islam. Hitler was not a Muslim. The Inquisitors were not Muslim. Mussolini was not a Muslim. Stalin was not a Muslim. Pinochet was not a Muslim. Do you need other examples? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Truth: Turkey and Armenia From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:14 AM Yeah...Pol Pot and George Bush are not Muslims either. Nor was Mao Tse-Tung. Idi Amin, on the other hand, was Muslim, but I hardly think that his religion was the main factor involved in him slaughtering people. Nope, I think Idi would have done the same if he'd been a Christian, an atheist, or a Hare Krishna...that was just Idi, that's all. He was bigger than his religious indentity, you might say. You can belong to any religion or to no religion at all and still have a totally paranoid and destructive attitude. That has been proven again and again throughout history. |
