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BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today

DigiTrad:
BEST YEARS OF HER LIFE
DEATH OF JOHN KENNEDY
I SAW MY COUNTRY'S FLAG GO DOWN
I'M CALLED LITTLE CAROLINE
LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE
LORD OF THE LAND
THAT WAS THE PRESIDENT AND THAT WAS THE MAN
THAT WAS THE PRESIDENT, THAT WAS THE MAN 2
THE BALLAD OF J. F. K.
THE BOY SALUTES


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Beer 22 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 07 - 12:51 PM
number 6 22 Nov 07 - 01:19 PM
number 6 22 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM
Beer 22 Nov 07 - 01:27 PM
Rapparee 22 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM
SINSULL 22 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 07 - 02:48 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM
Charley Noble 22 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM
Beer 22 Nov 07 - 06:20 PM
Bobert 22 Nov 07 - 06:41 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Nov 07 - 07:25 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 07 - 07:28 PM
Rapparee 22 Nov 07 - 08:22 PM
Little Hawk 22 Nov 07 - 08:46 PM
SINSULL 22 Nov 07 - 09:01 PM
Bobert 22 Nov 07 - 09:14 PM
Sorcha 22 Nov 07 - 09:16 PM
Riginslinger 22 Nov 07 - 09:18 PM
Bill D 22 Nov 07 - 09:29 PM
Beer 22 Nov 07 - 09:42 PM
catspaw49 22 Nov 07 - 10:00 PM
Bobert 22 Nov 07 - 10:10 PM
Charley Noble 22 Nov 07 - 10:19 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 07 - 10:28 PM
The Villan 23 Nov 07 - 04:17 AM
Beer 23 Nov 07 - 07:21 AM
The Villan 23 Nov 07 - 09:14 AM
catspaw49 23 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM
Linda Goodman Zebooker 23 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Wesley S 23 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Nov 07 - 10:51 AM
MaineDog 23 Nov 07 - 11:12 AM
Bobert 23 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM
Deckman 23 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 23 Nov 07 - 07:40 PM
fumblefingers 23 Nov 07 - 08:03 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 07 - 08:33 PM
Riginslinger 23 Nov 07 - 09:31 PM
number 6 23 Nov 07 - 09:48 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM
number 6 23 Nov 07 - 10:23 PM
number 6 24 Nov 07 - 12:31 AM
catspaw49 24 Nov 07 - 05:58 AM
Bobert 24 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM
Riginslinger 24 Nov 07 - 08:29 AM
catspaw49 24 Nov 07 - 10:02 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 24 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM
Riginslinger 24 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM
Bobert 24 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM
Riginslinger 24 Nov 07 - 02:13 PM
Bobert 24 Nov 07 - 04:57 PM
Donuel 24 Nov 07 - 05:28 PM
Little Hawk 24 Nov 07 - 05:30 PM
Beer 24 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM
Little Hawk 24 Nov 07 - 06:49 PM
fumblefingers 24 Nov 07 - 07:37 PM
Riginslinger 24 Nov 07 - 09:09 PM
Little Hawk 24 Nov 07 - 09:09 PM
Riginslinger 25 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM
pdq 25 Nov 07 - 01:28 PM
Rog Peek 25 Nov 07 - 03:45 PM
Little Hawk 25 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM
pdq 25 Nov 07 - 04:06 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM
pdq 25 Nov 07 - 05:51 PM
Bobert 25 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM
Little Hawk 25 Nov 07 - 10:19 PM
Riginslinger 25 Nov 07 - 10:33 PM
Little Hawk 26 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM
Riginslinger 27 Nov 07 - 08:02 AM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 07 - 08:16 AM
Bobert 27 Nov 07 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,number 6 27 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 07 - 06:21 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Nov 07 - 07:17 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM
katlaughing 27 Nov 07 - 07:53 PM
Amos 27 Nov 07 - 08:09 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 07 - 08:12 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 27 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 27 Nov 07 - 09:16 PM
Bill D 27 Nov 07 - 09:21 PM
Riginslinger 27 Nov 07 - 09:24 PM
Little Hawk 27 Nov 07 - 09:36 PM
Riginslinger 27 Nov 07 - 11:01 PM
Bobert 28 Nov 07 - 06:06 PM
Folk Form # 1 29 Nov 07 - 01:43 PM
Little Hawk 29 Nov 07 - 01:59 PM
Riginslinger 29 Nov 07 - 02:26 PM
Amos 29 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM
Little Hawk 29 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM
Folk Form # 1 29 Nov 07 - 04:23 PM
Little Hawk 29 Nov 07 - 04:29 PM
Bobert 29 Nov 07 - 05:21 PM
Riginslinger 29 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM
Little Hawk 29 Nov 07 - 06:12 PM
Riginslinger 29 Nov 07 - 06:33 PM
Little Hawk 29 Nov 07 - 07:19 PM
Riginslinger 29 Nov 07 - 10:20 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 30 Nov 07 - 12:43 AM
Little Hawk 30 Nov 07 - 01:35 AM
Riginslinger 30 Nov 07 - 09:41 PM
Little Hawk 30 Nov 07 - 10:06 PM
Riginslinger 01 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM
Little Hawk 01 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM
Riginslinger 01 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM
Little Hawk 01 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM
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Little Hawk 01 Dec 07 - 09:56 PM

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Subject: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Beer
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM

Can it really be. The teacher walked in class and was crying.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:51 PM

He is sorely missed. I will never forget it.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 01:19 PM

"What if you could've been there on that day in Dallas
What if you could wrestle back the hands of time
Maybe somethin' could've been done in Memphis
We wouldn't be livin' in a dream that's died"


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: number 6
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

... the above is from Steve Earl's song Conspiracy (btw).

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Beer
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 01:27 PM

Wow!, I hadn't heard that before. Must find the song and have a listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM

I was clearing Ft. Riley for home when the news came. I was in the barracks, talking to some other guys who were also leaving. A KP came in and said, "The President's been shot." We said, "Bullshit!" He said, "No, really, turn on the radio."

We did, and heard "...has been taken to a hospital in Dallas...."

The next day I marched in the parade the officially notified us of the death of the Commander In Chief. We marched with arms reversed, at 60 steps per minute, and when you're used to marching at 120 per minute you fall all over yourself and others.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM

One of those unanswerable "What if?"s. Where would be today had Kennedy not been shot? Maybe we are better off. Maybe he would gotten us into a nuclear conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:48 PM

Possibly. No one will ever know.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM

Very little notice of this sad anniversary in the Los Angeles media. I think the county's political malaise has it origins in the dastardly event of Nov. 22, 1963.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM

It certainly doesn't seem that long ago to me. But I remember my folks saying the same about the bombing or Pearl Harbor or the death of FDR, which happened centuries ago!

One wonders if the election of Nixon in 1968 could have been avoided, or that given 8 years of JFK the country would have sanctioned such a swing to the right.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Beer
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:20 PM

John.
I also find the slow response on this thread a bit surprising as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:41 PM

Yes, I agree with John on the Left Coast...

Seems as JFK's assasination marked the beginning of the end of "the dream", not because JFK was such an idealist or made things better becuase that is not known... But what it did was signal that their was a faction in this country who thought they could control the agenda thru political assasination... And they did just that...

Now we don't specifically who these folks are but we certainly have no problem in seein' what political groups benefited from a decade's worth of leftist/liberals who were gunned down by people with no apparent motives???

And the US suffers yet today from these assasinations... And, yes. I will admit that because the conservatives have benefited from these assasinations that it makes them even more repulsive to me... You don't see conservatives getting all choked up over the assasinations of JFK, RFK or MLK...

Oh sure, I'll take a blast from them for saying this... They will get all puffed up with righteous indigation... That's fine..

What if it Ronald Reagun, Bush I and Bush II who were killed by folks with no motives... Even Hinkly had more motive (insanity) then Oswald, Surhan and Ray...

Yeah, think about what a dent that would have made in the political landscape...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 07:25 PM

First of all, Bobert, conservatives did not benefit from JFK's assassination. They may have benefited from the hippie backlash to the Viet-Nam War, which action caused Lynden Johnson not to run for election in 1968. Also, JFK was much closer to today's Republicans than today's Democrats. He was staunchly anti-Communist, and not loathe to confront them; his main tenet was 'Ask not what your country can do for you, etc'. These are not principles of modern Democrats.
MLK was the first killed, followed by JFK later in the same year. Robert was murdered about 5 years later. The Kennedy assassins did, at least in their own minds, have reason to do their cowardly acts, and were certainly not conservatives. Ray may have acted for his own reasons, or been a hired assassin.
Frankly, these 44 years later, I don't hear of many conservatives or liberals choked up over this anniversary. Too bad you had to politicize it so egregiously.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 07:28 PM

Remember the movie "The Manchurian Candidate"? Food for thought there. Perhaps there has been some high level programming of certain susceptible people in regards to carrying out (or serving as the patsy for) certain assassinations. And if there were, how would we ever know about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 08:22 PM

The movie "The Manchurian Candidate" was based upon the NOVEL of the same title. NOVEL. Fiction. A lie told for profit, as one author defined it.

WLS television out of Chicago had a couple of segments on the JFK killing. Apparently it's just the left and right coasts that don't remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 08:46 PM

Yes, I realize that "Manchurian Candidate" was fiction, and I was not suggesting otherwise. But suppose that something a tad similar might have been done, in the sense of psychologically programming people to perform assassinations...or just setting them up in various ways to take the fall or to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like Oswald, for instance.

A lie is something told deliberately to deceive someone. Therefore one should not call a published work of fiction, whose intention is not to deceive, but to entertain or enlighten..."a lie told for profit". Fiction may be written simply for entertainment, or it may have more serious purposes, such as to raise analogies and possibilities which help us better understand our lives. This was the case, for instance, with all of the brilliant fiction written by H.G. Wells. Every story he wrote, though it was fictional, served to raise important philosophical and moral issues about humankind. This is NOT "lying for profit", it is an attempt to enlighten people.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:01 PM

The day of Kennedy's assassination is tattooed on my brain but the horror of September 11th replaced it. I wonder if that plus the exposure of the Kennedy brothers' "loose" living and connection with Marilyn Monroe's suicide (?) has tainted the original saint-like position each had. But then I still see John-John saluting his dead father... sad times.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:14 PM

For the record, I am stickin' with the premise that the consercvatives were the one's who benefited from takin' out these folks... Especially RFK and MLK... These were two very extraordianry men with ideals that would have shaped the US in ways that is hard to imagine but I'd I believe that if these 2 men had not been assainated that the country would be in a lot better shape now...

Better shape now??? Yeah, a more just country, not in Iraqmire, not looking down upon a Supreme Court that thinks that Afirmative Action is unconsitutional, not a country in decline...

Can I prove this??? Of course I can't... Nor can anyone prove the converse...

As for motives??? Tell me agian what the motives of the assasins were??? I've never heard any credible motive for any of them...

John Kennedy: Bay of Pigs???

Robert Kennnedy: ???????????????????????????????????

Martin Luther King: ??????????????????????????????????

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:16 PM

And now John John is gone too.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:18 PM

"'Remember the movie "The Manchurian Candidate"?'"


             I always thought showing the movies "The Manchurian Candidate," and "JFK" back to back would make a great lesson plan for college freshmen, but I got out of the business before I had a chance to put it into play.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:29 PM

We heard rumors...but I went on to my college class that day.....until the professor - of American History!! - came in and said 3 words...."Yes, it's true." And we all ran for the TVs. I got there just in time to see/hear Walter Cronkite deliver the final word.

   I was actually delivering newspapers for extra money, and had 3 editions of that day's paper...one from before the shooting, one with just headlines, and one with basic stories. And everyone on my route who was home was out waiting for me. It was one interesting week for newspaper boys, finding extra copies for many customers.

I don't know who I'm angrier at, Oswald or Jack Ruby.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Beer
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:42 PM

"I don't know who I'm angrier at, Oswald or Jack Ruby."

You just opened a door that was closed. I recall feeling the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 10:00 PM

John on the Sunset Coast said:
"MLK was the first killed, followed by JFK later in the same year. Robert was murdered about 5 years later."

I don't think it changes or in any way diminishes what you were saying but just to correct the history, JFK was killed in '63. Martin and Bobby were both shot and killed in '68.

Jack Kennedy was of the WWII generation who respected what other less wealthy Americans wanted after that war. The Camelot analogy of his presidency was apt as many saw in that vision just what was possible. His death gave us the reality and what was not. King's vision again showed us the possiblities on the other side of the mountain. His death showed the sad reality of where we actually were. Bobby showed us that a man could change and move forward with the unity of right and good whether rich or poor, black or white.

Their deaths sadly destroyed any chance of moving forward united by hope. Then 9-11 came along and we were suddenly bound together but with fear instead.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 10:10 PM

Me???

Ruby...

But given the absolute "pass" that Sirhan and Ray got in explaining their beef then Oswald probably would have gotten the same pass, maybe be in prison right now or dead and still nobobt trying to connect the dots...

Can anyone here tell me what Sirhan and Ray had in the way of beefs that would have justified a life behind bars???

I mean, this would be a joke if it weren't so friggin' sad that it's obvious to any thinking person that there was a definate pattern with the 60's assasinations... Things like this just ***don't happen***...

And, to me, it's not worth arguing over... There are millions like me who think and believe this to the deepest parts of our souls and while I'd invite anyone to try to offer up evidence that these assasinations weren't politically connected, I'll warn that this evidence better be a lot better than than what is out there now... Which is a bunch of bull...

Sorry, call me stubborn... Call me whatever you want... Bring me evidence that the right wing didn't kill off three leaders of the left... Yeah, bring it on...

Still seriously pissed off... May go the grave seriously pissed off...

***THEY*** did it... ***THEY*** know they did... I know ***THEY*** did it... Millions of other know ***THEY*** did it...

I'm going to just leave this thing alone for now...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 10:19 PM

Thanks, Spaw, for sorting it out better than most.

I'll always be haunted by the "what might have beens," whether they would have worked or not.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 10:28 PM

Excellent summation, Pat. Thanks.

I didn't come in here at first because it surprised me it's really been that long. I also remembered writing of that day in an old thread and didn't want to relive the sadness. But, I cannot find the old thread/posting, so here I am, still sad at our nation's loss and the state of affairs today.

I was ten years old that day in school. My mom came to pick me up early as I wasn't feeling well. When I got in the car she had on the radio and was in a state of shock, shushing me as we listened to the awful news. It had just happened.

My whole family were home, we gathered round the tv and stood, out of respect, as we listened to Walter Cronkite telling us "the way it was" wishing there were some way we could take it all back.

I don't care about later revelations about the Kennedys, just like Clinton. I heard him on a talk show last night and was again struck with how much I still wish he was president. Talk about intelligent and articulate and smart! Maybe Clinton is what Kennedy would have become like or was like, but kept it private. I don't know.

I still miss JFK and Bobbie and MLK.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:17 AM

I remember that like it was yesterday.
I also know exactly where I was on that day as well.
Never forgotten over here in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Beer
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:21 AM

I guess I should have explained the purpose of this thread. Although it was bound to go left and right I was hoping that folks here would just share their thoughts as they reflect back. Thanks Kat and Villan for bringing it back.
Question? Was this the first live assassination taped and seen around the world? Somewhere in the reassesses of my mind I think I heard this somewhere.

Oh, the teacher that came in crying and broke the news to us was a man. I had never seen a grown man cry.

Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:14 AM

Well I was helping run a dance for our cricket club at a pub in Birmingham UK called The Crossways .
I had heard the news as I was leaving for the pub.
There were over 100 people there and we were all stunned and just could not believe it.
I was 18 at the time.
Taking politics out of it, I thought he was a very popular person (a bit like Lady Di) at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM

I was in Freshman Civics class oddly enough. The PA system came on and with no intro to what we were hearing, the radio broadcast was played. No one in the class cried at the time. We were suburban, lower middle class, 14 year olds who believed in Camelot and the American Dream and the whole thing was just a shock. How could this happen and why?

Like most others, I spent the next days glued to the TV watching the event unfold. Oswald shot, John-John, Black Jack (the riderless horse), the casket and caisson crossing the bridge.........I remember it very well.

A few years ago when we were visiting Arlington Cemetery, as the bus crossed to go through the gates I looked down at the bridge and the Lincoln Memorial and my mind immediately flashed onto that same scene filled with the funeral procession and the trail of leaders on the way to Arlington. Truthfully, it was a bit of a scary moment...very weird.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

This past Tuesday I sang in an interfaith service in a church neighboring my synagogue. As I walked in and viewed the sanctuary, I recalled with some shock the last time I'd been in there. It was for another interfaith service that my parents and I had attended with my aunt and uncle in the days following Pres. Kennedy's death.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

For what it's worth a local TV station here in north Texas usually runs the original broadcast tapes from that day. It's strange to watch the events unfold before your eyes knowing that they are about to announce the death of a president. Also interesting to see 5 or 6 unknown reporters in the background of these tapes that would soon become household names.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:51 AM

Catspaw, you are right, my chronology is off...please chalk it up to haste and anger.

I remember well the time of each assassination, especially that of JFK, and MLK, both had an exceptionally profound effect on my life; RFK slightly less so. I remember hearing the news of Bobby's death really early the morning after the Calif. Primary. At first I thought they were remembering JFK's death 5 years early. It was inconceivably preposterous that both should have been killed.

Bobert (whether you're still looking her or not) it is hard to prove something that you don't want to believe. If each murderer gave a full confession, you still wouldn't change your mind. So fulminate all you want to, it doesn't make your assertions so.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: MaineDog
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:12 AM

I remember it still. I was hanging out at the college radio station, where I was on the tech staff. I heard the news teletype (!) ring 10 bells -- that only was supposed to happen for a nuclear war. The announcer ran in and ripped off the little piece of yellow paper that contained the news. We faded down the music -- I forgot what it was, and he did his best to read the story. Then we played Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, which we always had ready just in case -- well, this was the time for it. After that I was too stunned to do anything so I went to the electronics lab to putter around with one of my assignments. My professor was also there trying to hide from it all.
It was Not Fun.
ND


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:57 PM

It doesn't make my assertions false either, John...

Ummmm, I was in US Government class when I heard about JFK... It was like 5th period... Mr. Cormier was our teacher and was an Ivy Leaguer Democrat with the cordoroy jackets an' all... The class was in an addition that was not part of the rst of the school and someone came to the door, called him out in the hall and when he returned he made the announcement... I can't rmember much beyond that as everyone was just in shock...

In '68 I had started the year actively working for Eugene McCarthy who was running early (by those days standards) as a antiwar candidate... Then Bobby Kennedy got into the reace and I quit the McCarthy campaign, walked into the newly creted Kennedy camapiagn office and asked what they needed me to do... The rest is history... I thought so much of that man... He was a true visionary... So compassionate... I met him and his family at his McLean home and 3 years after his assasination I almost landed a job working at Hickory Hill as a groundskeeper/tutor/baby-sitter...

MLK, however, was the hardest loss... I had a temporary part time job as a draftsman at an engineering firm when I heard the news... I just simply could not believe it... It was the hardest of the 3 for me because Dr. King just had it all... He had the vision... He had the orgainizational skills... He had the charisma... He just had it... I never met Dr. King though I came close on several occasions but I read his speeeches... I have a book entitled " A Testiment of Hope" which is about worn out... It has all of Dr. King's major speeches and essays... Lots of people just pick out the "I Have a Dream" speech in Washington, D.C. because it's what they know... I'd suggest this book to anyone who really wants to see the entire paiting that Dr. King painted...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

That day is forever burned into my brain. I was entering a career of rehabilition services for handicapped persons. I was working with Goodwill Industries in San Jose, California. I was on the loading dock, sorting through incoming furniture, when "Tom" came out to the loading dock, in tears. JFK was a hero, especially to handicapped persons. Tom ran the radio repair shop, and heard the news first. I spent the rest of the day consoling workers, driving them home, making sure that everyone was surrounded with friends.

There have been other horrible "benchmarks," but none as devistating as that horrible day in November. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:40 PM

Bobert, I believe that Inuits cultivated oranges in the frozen north of Canada 5000 years ago. I don't have any proof of that, but just because there are no traces of ancient orange trees doesn't make me wrong. It just means no ancient oranges have been found there yet. I like your logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: fumblefingers
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:03 PM

Bobert, Who wuz it? Which right winggie offed the triple initials three?


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:33 PM

Hey, folks... All one has to do is see who benifited... No, the individuals have covered their tracks, perhaps with an assisit from federal agencies...

Who wants to be the first here to tell me why Sauhan was willing to spend a life in jail, perhaps even be killed there by someone who was pissed off over what he did, in order to kill Bobby Kennedy???

I mean. lets get real here... Folks can have beefs but not to the level where they just go out and ruin their own lives oveer them


Ray is the same... Where's his beef??? Sure there were lotys of rednecks in Memphis in'68... Still are... Why this man jumps out and says, in essence, that he is ready to forfit his life to kill Fr. King is beyond me... Had he been a grand wizzard of the KKK then, yeah, maybe... He was just an ordinary Southern redneck... Ordinary Southern rednecks don't do this kinda stuff or every liberal in America would be dead...

Like who here wants to stand up and say what these folks beefs were???

Or Oswald's??? Or Ruby???

I ain't accusing LBJ or space aliens for these assasinations but I don't think it is out of order for folks who just see them as some coincidence to explain why???

This stuff has never happened in our country before... It did stop a political movement... I just can't accept the "coincidence" argument without someone showing me that these assasins have real greiviences against the people they gunned down...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:31 PM

Bobert - You're right. That's the question: Cui Bono?

       I think it's a lot like planing a board. The more times over the more obvious the imperfections become. Given enough time, I think historians will finally get to the bottom of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: number 6
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:48 PM

The further time drifts off from November 22nd,1963, and the characters involved all die one by one ... so will the truth fade away, and it will be locked away forever.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM

Well, thanks, Rigs...

There, folks, here's at least one other person on the planet who ain't bought into the "coincidence" argument... I mean, that argument is about as weak as the reason the Bush administration invaded Iraq over...

Anyone who can't see that is either blind to reality or completely brasinwashed by people who have made it their livelyhoods to put down folks who see conspiracies, i.e. the protectors of the rich...

Rich people don't morn the killings of liberals... They toast to them... I don't know the ****actaul**** rich people who were behind these assasinations but they found their assasins, paid them well and then told them if they talked they would be dead, and these poor shmucks went out and did the deeds... That's the way it went down...

Ain't no coincidence here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: number 6
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:23 PM

"Rich people don't morn the killings of liberals"

That has to be one of the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard.

Jeeeezuz Bobert. They're are many, many rich (meaning economically wealthy) people who are liberals and who support liberal, social justice causes. Being rich doesn't make a person a target for everything evil in this world. Darn right dangerous I'd say.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: number 6
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:31 AM

case in point ... Bobby Kennedy mourned the the death of Martin Luther King.

"What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black."

Part of the text from Bobby Kennedy's speech on the assination of MLK.

I think the world needs to understand those lines more so than ever today whether rich or poor.

Forget about rich, or poor, left or right, Republican or Democrat ... just read that statement ... delivered (compassionately) from a rich guy.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:58 AM

While I think Bobby may have been the most important figure of the three, the killing of JFK has got to be ranked at the very top of events of change in the history of this country. A true line of demarcation exists after that day. It was not a case of what he had been as a president but more a question of who and what the United States was as a nation. We were never again what we were then and we lost belief that we could be.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM

Of course you are correct, #6... I sometimes use "rich people" to mean "Boss Hog" which to me means "The Right Wing Corporatists/Industrialist"...

No, not all rich people toast the killings of liberals... Just the Boss Hog corporatists and their shills...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:29 AM

"The further time drifts off from November 22nd,1963, and the characters involved all die one by one ... so will the truth fade away, and it will be locked away forever..."

            Bill - That's certainly part of it, but a lot of these people have been lying for so long, they have come to believe what they're saying. I don't think there is anything to be gained from them by way of information. Sometimes when they die, however, old letters and communications that have been locked away become public, which sheds more light on the situation.
                   I just don't think they can hide from historians forever. It seems to me that just the movie "JFK" provoked a lot of people to ask questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 10:02 AM

People were questioning the JFK case many years before the movie and in significant numbers. I think Stone's movie may have added a few voices but many of them were just into ANY conspiracy.

The movie may well haved turned some off to the whole thing as well. Stone did history no favor by trying to include every possible alternate scenario and trying to tie them all up in a package deal.

He DID leave out the Pygmy Cannibals with blow darts and ties to the Aryan Nation, but that was about all that was missing..........

geeziz.................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM

Good fiction can provoke discussion. Stone set up multiple scenarios, so there is something for every conspiracy nut to discuss. Two adages come to mind: 1) Sometimes a cigar is really just something to smoke. 2) If you throw enough sh=t on the ceiling something something might stick. The rest, of course will spatter on the thrower.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM

I think time will tell!


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM

Ahhhhh, not to be tryin' to be disrespectfull to anyone, but can someone expalin Oswald's motives???


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 02:13 PM

They'll tell you that he was a maniac so he didn't need a motive. Just like George W. Bush invading Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 04:57 PM

Oh???

So, no motive... There's one down...

Surhan, yer up next...

And, Ray, yer in the batter's box so get warmed up...


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:28 PM

MLK was killed on April 4th 1968, AFTER JFK not before.
Cities were burning throughout the country but the TV was mum.
Johnson did call the national guard for some of the worst riots and fires but much more of the country burned that week than we were told.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Our 8th grade math teacher Mr. Craft carried his blackboard pointer like a British officer might flourish his riding crop. WHAP! on the desk to get our attention and then a precision guided poke that was meant to levitate us where he wanted us to go. Today people might compare him to Mr. Snape with a pencil thin moustache.
THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN SHOT echoed from the locker lined hallway into our class. Miss Denise Watkins came to our door and confirmed the news from a transitor radio she had confiscated while monitoring a study hall. Shot in the head was the news.
Oh I hope he is going to be alright Susan said as she slumped head in hands onto the 1940 oak school desk deeply etched by 20 years of kids. Mr. Craft grinned the rightious grin of victory and said "Have you ever heard the sound a rifle slug makes when it hits a deer in the head? There is no possible way he is alive."
So after 44 years years my most vivid memory of JFK's death was Mr. Craft and his barely contained glee.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:30 PM

So, Spaw, I see you have seen fit to cast all caution to the winds and speak the unspeakable...namely that you happened to drop a little comment there in regards to the JFK assassination about "the Pygmy Cannibals with blow darts and ties to the Aryan Nation".

Well! I thought you had some sense of normal prudence, some vestigial measure of judgement and rationality, some meagre inclination to actually survive long enough to pass into your dotage...

I thought you were at least as circumspect, for example, as Olive Stone, a man who knows exactly where and when to stop...

But, no. You had to go that one step further. You had to open your big mouth and blab. You had to unlock the key on Pandora's Box and lift the lid. You had to sing like a friggin' Neapolitan lark on Palm Sunday.

Let me put this as succinctly as I can, old pal.

You're fucked! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Beer
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

Donuel.
Heavy, I'm lost for words. Something you surely wouldn't forget.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:49 PM

Donuel, it was quite evident to me also that some people were at least secretly very pleased when John Kennedy was killed. I was living in a part of upstate New York that was quite solidly Republican, very right wing, and most of the people there detested John Kennedy. Only a few, however, were crass enough to make it fairly obvious at the time that they were glad he was dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: fumblefingers
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:37 PM

If the JFK murder was a conspiracy, then it was a good one. People talk and are eventually found out. The same goes for RFK. Nobody has been able to tie Sirhan to anyone else.

The King killing was likely a conspiracy. James Earl Ray was a thief, and didn't amount to much. Someone probably had to finance his escape to Canada, buy his fake passport and pay for his trip to England. He was way out of his depth to be acting alone. I think it was planned for him to be captured in UK. A guy with an accent like his stood out big time.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 09:09 PM

I recall talking to a number of people who were overjoyed about Dr. King's assassination, and I lived in Ore-gone at the time. I showed up for work, not knowing about the incident, and my boss met me with a great big grin, and said, "They got the spook."


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 09:09 PM

"People talk and are eventually found out."

Yeah. But what if they talk to someone and almost no one listens? (meaning, the mainstream media and the *officially recognized* authorities on the matter give it no coverage, no recognition and no credence)

Well, then, it appears to the general public as if no one has talked, doesn't it?

That's the power of media coverage or the lack of it. That's the power of official recognition by authoritative bodies such as the Warren Commission...or not official recognition by such bodies.

That's how a coverup is done, if it is managed at a higher government level...simply by controlling the information that reaches the mainstream. It is not done by ensuring that no one talks (although that would be the ideal objective), it is done by ensuring that virtually no one listens to anyone who DOES talk...and virtually no one reports it...and the very few who do are dismissed as cranks and "conspiracy theorists"...and their careers suffer accordingly. They become outcasts in their chosen profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM

By Jove, LH, I think you've got it!


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: pdq
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:28 PM

You may be correct on that point, Little Hawk. That would help explain why one of the most important stories in half a century was published in...

                        Rolling Stone


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Rog Peek
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:45 PM

"That Was The President" that was the man

Phil Ochs


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM

Yeah, pdq, I read that Rolling Stone article awhile back. Very interesting, to say the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: pdq
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 04:06 PM

We, as private citizens, have very little chance of knowing what really happened, and time will make thing harder to sort out, not easier.

I seem to remember the picture of Lyndon Johnson taking the presidential oath on the plane back to DC. Beside him was Mrs. Kennedy, and the look in her eyes appeared to say "you bastard!".


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM

Fumble fingers,

You have perhaps inadvertantly strengthened my arguments...

No,no one has connected Sirhan to anyone else... That is my point... No one has... But I don't see where anyone actaully ever did... No, RFK dead... Sirhan did it... End of discussion...

Same with the Warren Commision... End of discuss...

Same as MLK... Ray did it... End of discussion...

Shoot, our country spent more tax dollars harassing Bill Clinton over a friggin' blow job than it did in investigating the assasinations of these 3 ***liberal*** leaders of the 60's???

WHY??? This is ****NOT**** an unreasonable question!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: pdq
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:51 PM

Sirhan Sirhan


"God is with those who persevere." - The Koran

"Sirhan Bishara Sirhan was born March 19, 1944, in Jerusalem, Palestine, the fifth son of Bishara and Mary (Muzher). The family practiced Jordanian Christianity, but belonged to the Arab-based society in the divided region. As a child, Sirhan saw the state in which he lived blistered by upheaval – he saw entire villages dissipated in the Jewish-Arab war. He would be 12 years old before his family earned U.S. visas and, as Palestinian refugees, arrive in the New World. Living briefly in New York City, the Sirhans eventually moved west to California.

According to investigative writer Dan E. Moldea in The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy, young Sirhan was abused as a boy by his father, who seemed unable to understand American customs and, therefore, grew resentful of this new life. Deserting his wife and family, he eventually returned to his homeland. Mary Sirhan, faced with the prospect of raising her children by herself, got a job as a teacher's aide in a Pasadena nursery school and, by all accounts, worked hard and learned fast.

Her son Sirhan was quiet and polite, a good student, and had many friends. At John Muir High School, he studied two difficult languages, German and Russian, and, as a side activity, joined the California Cadets, "a type of high school ROTC," as Moldea explains. He enjoyed the Cadets' occasional trips to the National Guard Armory, where students were allowed to shoot .22 caliber rifles at practice targets.

In 1963, Sirhan Sirhan enrolled in City College, but generally ducked, instead hanging out at a local Denny's restaurant with fellow AWOLs. His college education slid; he quit in early 1965 when his sister Aida, whom he adored, was stricken with leukemia.

Sirhan worked frequently, but at low-paying jobs – as a salesman for a health food store or a groomsman at the Santa Anita Racetrack. He loved the latter and wanted very badly to become a jockey. Although his small physical stature was ideal, he lacked the nerve, according to an acquaintance. After a series of horse-riding accidents, which sent him to the hospital, his career dreams ended. Nevertheless, Sirhan continued to hang out at the track, sometimes betting away his entire check on one or two races. The most money he purportedly owned at any one time was a $1,700 settlement check after falling off a horse. Of possessions, his only one was a 1956 DeSoto.

Religiously, his doctrines changed often, the ones holding the longest interest being Baptist, Seventh Day Adventism and several forms of occultism.

"As an alien, Sirhan did not have the right to vote in America," Moldea says. "Although he felt strongly about the Middle East situation and expressed the belief that he was 'disenfranchised from the American establishment,' Sirhan did not belong to a political party. But (it appeared that he) supported the Baath Party, which operated in the Middle East."

As for his motive in killing Robert Kennedy, the SUS sought that amid the lines of scratch on the pages of his notebooks. Scrawlings between their covers brought hard accusation. They read, "RFK must die," "Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated before June 5, 1968," and "My determination to eliminate RFK is becoming more (and) more of an unshakable obsession…(He) must be sacrificed for the cause of the poor exploited people."

Through witness interviews, the SUS discovered that Sirhan had attended two previous Kennedy assemblies. One fellow remembered seeing Sirhan at one, looking "completely out of character…very intense and sinister." And another person placed him at a June 2 speech, two days before the assassination.

The overall finding of the SUS, then, is pretty much defined in Lt. Pena's words: "Sirhan was a self-appointed assassin. He decided that Bobby Kennedy was no good because he was helping the Jews. And he was going to kill him."



{Remember, this was June 1968, about one year after the Arab-Israeli war that few Arabs believed they could lose. They blamed the US.}


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM

Okay, pdq... Who wrote that??? An FBI agent whoes paycheck was signed J. Edgar Hoover???

This is my point...

Yes... "The Story" is there but tell me how much money and now many hours have been spent since 1968 in verifying "The Story"...

Is that too much to ask???

I mean, what... Are we just to accept "The Storys" forever, regardless of the truthfullness of them???

Do I have any evidence that "The Story" is false??? No, I don't... Fo you have any evidence that "The Story" is true??? No, you more than likely, don't...

That is why millions of Americans look abck at the 60's as a time where the left stoood up, got shot down litereallu and figureatively, and then the shooters got to frame "The Story" to their liking...

And then to be sure that "The Storys" were'nt challenged they put together an effective PR campaign to discredit anyone who didn't believe "The Story" as luney "Conspiarcy Theoryist" who see some kind of conspiracy under every rock... The reality is that isn't the case at all... But the PR thing was used as a ***push back*** against anyone who didn't buy into "The Story"...

I'm gald this thtread was started because, yeah, I have been a victim of that PR campaign and didn't go to websites where folks have been asking these questions but, hey, I'm at the age where looking back (and being there) "The Story" no longer adds up...

I think it is time to reopen the assisination cases of the 60's while there are still folks alive who have information that can be used to set the record straught and if there are folks till alive who were involved in these cowardly muders that these folks be outed before they escape to the next life...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:19 PM

"God is with those who persevere." - the Koran

They say that in every religion, don't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:33 PM

"'The overall finding of the SUS, then, is pretty much defined in Lt. Pena's words: "Sirhan was a self-appointed assassin. He decided that Bobby Kennedy was no good because he was helping the Jews. And he was going to kill him.'"

               This seems to be an ongoing theme. Why would Sirhan think RFK was helping the Jews? It doesn't make sense. Of course it's easy to argue that these people were unbalanced; then one doesn't have to explain anything.

               I agree with Little Hawk and Bobert. None of this adds up for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM

I think that it is entirely possible that there are Black Ops departments in the intelligence community (CIA) which look around for borderline individuals, insecure people with unstable personalities whom they can use either as assassins...or as patsys to set up to take the fall for an assassination. These individuals would need to have certain vulnerable qualities, such as: being a loner, being paranoid, carrying deep resentments and feelings of persecution, being alienated from most people, being in need of cash...etc...

Now take such an individual and work with him over a period of several years to gradually increase your control over him. Keep it all completely secret and off the record. Make sure that he knows little or nothing about who is really controlling him and and supplying him with money...or why they are doing it. Encourage his vanity and his delusions. Use various brainwashing techniques on him to steer him in what for you is a useful direction.

Then, when the time comes, point him like a weapon at the target of your choice or place him near the violence when it happens.

And then cut him loose...

If he turns out to have too troublesome a tongue afterward, despite the little he knows...send another one to kill him.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:02 AM

LH - This sounds like something you've given a lot of thought to. It also sounds perfectly plausible. Home grown, internal Manchurian Candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:16 AM

I'm sure that such things have happened, and it's not just a question of the CIA. There are a number of other covert organizations which might have engaged in such activities, with or without connections to the CIA. There's a whole network of paramilitary and intelligence and counter-intelligence type outfits involved in training people for moving weapons, moving drugs, laundering money, spying, setting up paramilitary forces in Third World countries, setting up coups in Third World countries, carrying out assassinations, supplying personnel for death squads and interrogation...it goes on and on.

Look into the history of Guatemala, for instance, or Panama, or Nicaragua, or Chile, or Peru, or Southeast Asia, or Iran...

Now, these people do not just work outside of the USA. They work within the USA as well, and they represent some of the most dangerous and powerful people in the country.

If a president gets seriously in the way of those people, I'm sure they have a number of ways to remove him from office.

The important thing I would think in such organizations is that the underlings, the foot soldiers, know as little as possible...only enough to do their part of the job. That way they don't become much of a security risk if they get caught.

I think that Lee Harvey Oswald was one of those underlings...a little fish that got caught up in a very big scheme, and one not of his own making.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:49 AM

That has been my point all along, LH...

David Hinkley, at least, had a somewhat believable, carzy as he was, story...

The others??? Haven't heard a motive yet that falls into the "somewhat believable" category... Just "The Story"...

When one looks at the overall effect that the killing of the "Big Three" had on the politics and policies of our country there is no doubt in my mind that the folks who ordered up these assasinations effectivel;y stopped a movement that would have led to kinder and gentler nation of caring people... This was their motive... It was money 'cause in order to have a kinder and gentler nation of caring people "culure" has to change and once it has changed then the logical next step in looking at how we deistribute wealth...

This was all about money... Just as the Iraq war is all about money...

The sad thing is that the same people (or their kids) still have the power today to knock off anyone who might get close to changing the "culture" of greed...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

""God is with those who persevere." - the Koran
They say that in every religion, don't they? "

Hmmmm ... I don't really know .... interesting though.

Anyone wanna to take on the task of verifying LH's statement?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM

Bobert--and some others here--never fails to not surprise me. John (not David) Hinkley is plausibly crazy enough to attempt a lone assassination for love of a movie star. Sirhan is not plausibly crazy enough to be the lone assassin of RFK for love of country. Oswald is not plausibly crazy enough to act to impress Communist Russia or Cuba. God, give me a break here!


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

Simply raising possibilities, John. It's possible that any of those people could have acted alone. It's also possible that one or another of them did not act alone. An assassination is far more likely to succeed, I think, when it is planned and carried out by well-trained professionals. Read the Rolling Stone article that the link was provided to awhile back in this thread...the interview with E. Howard Hunt's son...it's very interesting.

Number 6 - Not only in every religion, but in every positive philosophy known to man is embodied that same principle...that perseverance is the key to success. It's just common sense. Accordingly, it is found in all religions.

"God helps those who help themselves" is a common way of putting it. Every religion and every positive philosophy attempt to instill in people attitudes of perseverance, steadfastness, and determination.

Matter of fact, even the most vicious and negative philosophies have attempted to instill that attitude in their followers. Hitler, for instance, was big on the concept of perseverance...even to the point of being totally unrealistic about it when declining military situations for the Germans had passed way beyond any hope of recovery.

And so were Stalin and FDR and Tojo and Churchill and Patton big on perseverance. Hell, they all were... ;-)

Nixon: "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

It's clearly a sentiment that can be used, as most strong sentiments can, for both good and evil purposes....keeping in mind that everyone always seems to think that HIS purposes are among the good ones... ;-) It's a universal conceit.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:21 PM

John,

What LH said... Had Hinkley been a trained assasin he would have gotten the job done... He was only 6 feet from Reagan, for gosh sakes... He not only didn't get the job done but in his amatuerish attempt shot up everything around Reagan as well...

This isn't the kinda product the CIA or other intellegence agencies put out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:17 PM

Like I said...


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM

Agreed, John...

My lexdexia kicked in and I misread yer post...

Sorry...

Yes, seems that you, LH and I are on the same page here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:53 PM

Gee, Beer/Adrien, thread kind of went off track with the usual *suspects* didn't it. Oh well, thanks for starting it, anyway. IT was good to read some of the earlier memories posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:09 PM

I just figured it out. Barack Obama is the reincarnation of JFK!!

Now it all makes sense.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:12 PM

Well, gol danged, kat...

I waited until seemed that everyone got to do there "where-were-you" post before steppin' in with my "usual suspects" posts...

And I did do the obligatory "where-were-you" post so...

... I reckon that even bein' a "usual suspect", which BTW ain't all that bad to be and much better than bein' Lee Harvey hisself, that I deserve at the very least, 1/2 a point!!! Yes, I see where I don't get an actual whole point but a half a point is only fair...

I will say, however, that if it weren't fir the "usual suspects" this thread would be well on it's way to a sight-seein' tour of the Titanic...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

Sorry Bobert, my last post refered to my previous post of 2:40pm; I don't believe we agree here. Did like your story about diagramming sentences, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:16 PM

Wish it were a "story", John... Unfortunately, it is/was the thruth an' it sucked...

But, hey, good to know that we *don't* agree... I like you just fine but if I find myself agreein' with ya' then it hurts my head a' plenty...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:21 PM

ummm..Hinkley was more like 20-25 ft. from Reagan.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:24 PM

"...ummm..Hinkley was more like 20-25 ft. from Reagan."


                        Too bad!


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:36 PM

Not so fast! Who was Reagan's VP at the time? You always have to keep such things in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:01 PM

Oh yeah!


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:06 PM

Well, it wasn't Dick Cheney, that much is for sure...

I remember when Bush was selected by his daddy's Supreme Court people were sayin', "Well, gol danged... At least we have Cheney in there to keep the boy from runnin' a muck..."

Boy, those were the good ol' days... Now, Cheney is Bush's best insurance that he'll be able to get outta the Washington in one piece... No one wants Dick Cheney anywhere near "the button"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 01:43 PM

JFK waged a war against Vietnam. He, along with his brother, tried to assisinate the President of another country: Cuba. Against MLK, JFK is not worth one piece of DNA. MLK fought for an end to racial discrimination, poverty, and the war in Vietnam, not for high office, but because he thought it was morally wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 01:59 PM

The great thing about John Kennedy was simply this: he had the ability to inspire the ordinary public and make people believe in their future and the future of their country. That is a very valuable quality for any politician to have, and it can have incalculable effects upon a country...for better or for worse...depending on how it's used. In Kennedy's case, I think it was having good effects overall upon the USA, regardless of the fact that I agree with your criticisms of some of his foreign policy decisions, RR.

I think he was therefore a far better leader for the USA than either Johnson or Nixon, for example. They did not possess the ability to inspire the ordinary public...and they were, I think, equally dangerous in regards to foreign policy...if not more so.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 02:26 PM

LH - I agree, but I don't think you'd have to go too high on the ladder to get better than Johnson or Nixon. Though in the end, I think history will treat Nixon better than Johnson.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Amos
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

One reason he was better than Johnson, who may have been a better manipulator, and Nixon, perhaps a better underhanded cad, and Reagan, and Bushes 1 and 2, is that he thought, and he reflected on such issues as high principles and optimum solutions. While he was not without serious error, such as the Bay of Pigs, he had and showed some virtues of character that have scarcely been seen in Washington since. He was far more articulate than either Nixon or Johnson (or the Bushes or Carter or Reagan, for that matter) which meant people could understand what he thought, also, instead of feeling he was obsessively hiding things. Even when he may have been hiding things!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

Right on, Amos. You could say those things about Bobby too. They were both intelligent men, good communicators, and people who had the guts to take on a tough situation and meet it head-on.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 04:23 PM

Kennedy had charm, charisma and looks. So what. He tried to assisnate Castro which makes him and his brother little better than gangsters.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 04:29 PM

Most politicians are gangsters, RR. ;-) A lot of Latin American leaders have been assassinated by agents of the USA, and it has happened on just about every presidential watch, but I think Ronald Reagan's term in office may have been the worst of them when it came to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 05:21 PM

I don't put either Kennedy on the same moral plain as Dr. King but between the two, Bobby was one heck of a lot closer than JFK... And Bobby, by the time he decided to run for president had cut loose alot of the bagage and would have, IMO, made one of the best, if not the best, presidents this country ever had... And RFK would have, IMO, found a way to partner up with Dr. King and take this country beyond the racisim that is still rampant in America... I believe this deeply...

And that is, IMO, why RFK was assasinated...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM

"...but I think Ronald Reagan's term in office may have been the worst of them..."


                  Yes, it was. What were his handlers trying to do in Latin America, anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 06:12 PM

They were trying to make the world more profitable for Big Business.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 06:33 PM

Do you think they succeeded?


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:19 PM

In the short term, yes. To a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:20 PM

Well, they sure as hell made a big mess in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 12:43 AM

Little Hawk, did you mean to conflate assassinations of Latin American leaders and Pres. Reagan. I've been trying hard to remember that period,and altho' Reagan was active against Nicaragua and Grenada, Ortega lives to this day, and no Grenadean leader was killed at the US's behest. Have I forgotten someone?


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 01:35 AM

Yeah, there was a person I had in mind and I believe his name was Torrijos. He died in a plane crash. Said to be an accident, but it was no accident. However, I was thinking more of the thousands and thousands of other people, ordinary people (not the leaders of governments) who died at the hands of death squads and paramilitary groups funded by the Reagan administration.

You can read about the unfortunate end of Mr Torrijos in an excellent book called "Confessions of a Corporate Hitman", and it will make quite clear what did happen down there and why. It's always about money.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:41 PM

It seems to have escaped the attention of the media--probably not by accident--that Iran did more than any other foreign country on the face of the planet to get Ronald Reagan elected in the first place.
             When the funds were cut off that would allow him to have his way with governments in Central America, where did he turn for covert funding?

             Iran, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:06 PM

Iran-Contra. The height of irony, isn't it?

Yeah, the Iran hostage crisis what was killed the Carter presidency and set the stage for Reagan, and it didn't happen because of Jimmy Carter. He just happened to have the bad luck to be in the White House when it happened. The seeds of the Iranian revolution had been planted by the CIA way back in the 1950s, but they took some time to germinate.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

Well, it looks to me like they're shaping up the American election again. A few months ago they were infiltrating Iraq with terrorists, and a Republican couldn't have gotten elected if his life depended on it. It seems like the Iranians had second thoughts about having to deal with a Democratic president, though, so they just cut down on the infiltraters, and John McCain is back in the saddle.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:17 AM

Either that or the reporting we get about such "infiltrators" is completely controlled from the top down, manipulated, and therefore undependable in the first place...


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:43 PM

Of course it could be just the media, but then one would have to think the casualty rates are being rigged as well, which certainly isn't impossible. Plus we have the example of the Reagan election in 1980.
                And then, of course, I won't mention anything about David Duke, and his description of the American media.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

The way to rig casualty rates is to establish a very narrow definition for who gets killed in (or as a result of) action. There are ways to do that. Also, you report ONLY those who are killed outright. You don't talk much about the non-fatal casualties...or those who die some time later in a hospital far from the war zone. They, like the Iraqi civilians, become the invisible casualties of war.

Now here's another thing. You know how you officially avoid breaking the Geneva Conventions which are against torturing prisoners of war? You don't classify them as "prisoners" any longer! You make up some other official word for it, like "detainees". Then you can torture them all you want.

This is total BS, of course, since everyone knows that they are really prisoners, but total BS is the name of the game when it comes to national governments violating international law. Lawyers figure out these kind of semantic dodges for the politicians, and they are well paid for their efforts.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 07:40 PM

LH - The way you're describing the scenario, it sound like this: First they had to sacrafice Rumsfeld, and then they started off on a new program, which was really a continuation of the old program, only they just reported the facts differently. All of this helps John McCain hugely, which might be why he and GW got involved in a kissing fest during the last election.
                      Now they've got the "surge" going on, and the reports printed in the press tell the American public that everything is fine. And,everything that went on before was all Rumsfeld's fault, and he's gone now so there's nothing to worry about.


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Subject: RE: BS: J.F.K., 44 Years Today
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:56 PM

Yeah...something like that.


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