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BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
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Subject: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM Here he comes...we'll see what Ralphie boy has to say to us today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:08 AM Pox on him. I hope he throws his hat in the ring as a Republican. :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Bill D Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:23 AM Idiot! He'a doing it.The paradigm example of the "Harold Stassen Syndrome". He, along with the Supreme Court and election officials in Florida, are responsible for the current administration! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM Well, that notion is just MSM hyperbole, as Ralph just demonstrated. Good on him, I say. Somebody needs to keep the issues up front. And we'll see what he can do. He has already stated (prior to Meet the Press), that he will take any individual donations from people affiliated with ANY party. In some states, he will run on the Green ticket, in other states, other viable 3rd party tickets, and in others, as an independent. In other words, he has stated he will run however he needs to, in order to get on the ballot in all 50 states. He has also said he would only run if he could raise enough money & legal volunteers to mount the inevitable Democratic party court challenges to keep his name off the ballot in the fall. The toughest part, though, will be the debates. I just don't know how he can get around the MSM refusals to let him debate in the fall. But we'll see. The Nader campaign has brilliant people involved in the campaign. They are a pretty creative bunch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Sorcha Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:44 AM Pox on him, he ought to KNOW better by now. Damn man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:29 AM Another stroke for monomaniacal egomania! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM OK, tell you what folks. How about you explain how continuing to vote the same way you have always voted, will result in the deep systemic changes (a status quo in place now since the Reagan era) our government needs to make, actually happening? You vote the same, it is guaranteed the results will be the same. A Democrat or a Republican will win by a nose hair, or a Supreme Court intervention, or whatever way it pans out this year. There will be no landslide, because political partisans like you are driven by hatred of the other side, not love of your country. There is no other possible outcome in this game. It is controlled by a ruling oligarchy that uses the two party system like a gladiator game. You have a red team and a blue team. You have the Democratic brand and Republican brand. They fight to a draw, so you will come back in four years and watch the very same media spectacle all over again with different players from the same teams... All the while, the ruling oligarchy gets the teams to "work together" in the spirit of "bi-partisanship" to pass MORE laws to benefit the ruling oligarchy at the expense of the country, it's citizenry, it's natural resources, etc etc etc The ONLY way to force the government to change is through building a huge social change movement that pushes and forces the politicians to change. That is the ONLY way true systemic change has ever come about in the US, or anywhere for that matter. Authentic, systemic social, economic, and political change movements come from outside the electoral system, not from within. This is the last time Nader will run. This is our country's last, best chance to push forward a truly progressive social change agenda that will force change for the better. It will never happen if either Obama or Clinton are elected president, because they are both candidates that represent the status quo. If you are happy with the way things are, then by all means, vote for the Democrat. But if you truly think that electing yet another puppet place holder to the White House will mean our democracy is lost forever to the ruling oligarchy, it is time to change the way you have been voting. The responses to this announcement from posters here has been immediate and reactionary, just as I would have expected. But to those of you who really do think deeply about this, and are truly progressive, you have to be saying to yourself, something really does have to change this time, and voting Obama ain't it. Obama is not an authentic leader of a social change movement. His so-called 'grassroots' campaign isn't an authentic grassroots campaign. It is a very typical duopolist campaign, financed by huge corporate donations. Think about that. Think long and hard. Look at the horizon. Beyond voting in November, where do you see our nation headed with Obama in the White House? We need to force the neo-Gilded Age status quo out of office in record numbers. Progressive activists must press forward with OUR agenda, so when the Democratic party collapses after this election, we are organized, energized, feet on the ground, and ready to move in and take over in the inevitable political vacuum that will follow. That simply can't happen by voting for business as usual, and hoping for a different outcome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Alice Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM I watched it. He says his reason is to bring more issues to the campaign debate, or other sides of the issues. Ron Paul is thinking the same thing. It doesn't work that way, though. The media mostly ignores the small candidates. There must be a better way for Nader. He could be more constructive by not being a spoiler. If Ron Paul takes votes from McCain and Nader takes votes from Obama or Clinton... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:36 AM The world needs more Naders. What people are afraid of is Nader getting votes .... those votes mean that people are getting fed up of with the status quo of Washington ... the same status quo (machinery) that has gotten the U.S. involved in the Iraq war, gotten in to bed with corporate interests, lied, distanced themselves from the voting democracy, etc, etc.. The 3 main candidates running for the presidency exhibit nothing but politikal rhetoric ... if voted in it will be basically status quo in Washington. As Nader says ""Dissent is the mother of ascent," biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,irishenglish Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM The idea that Obama is a puppet to me is just laughable. What will his administration bring-I don't know...yet,but I do know he will restore America's credibility and stature in the world again. Look at it this way, even Kucinich bowed out of this election because he saw a tide coming, so WTF can't Nader just learn from the past and give up. Doesn't he realize that he is fighting a tide? What reason does he have for coming into this so late as well? Be the watchdog he always has been, but President, come on? I don't think Obama is status quo. I think Clinton and McCain are status quo. I think Obama is playing the game of status quo to get elected, but I'm betting on a whole new set of rules if he gets elected, and then my friends, it will be interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM Ron Paul, Mike Huckabe and (now) Ralph Nader are the only people talking issues. We need all of them. Even McCain can't really tell people how liberal he is for fear of alienating the few conservatives left who are planning to vote. And so, most of what he says is gas, just like O'Bamma and The Hillary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Dan Keding Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:56 AM I agree that the world needs more Naders but why is it always grandstanding at the worst possible moment that brings out Ralph's decision to run. We don't hear about him for months or years and then he's off to the races "bringing the issues to the forefront." Why hasn't he run for office in his own state? - think globally, act locally. There seems to be an aspect of ego in this whole affair. The smaller parties and independents have not proved that they can make any significant inroads locally and until they do they only act as a spoiler in presidential campaigns. I agree that we need more than two parties and that we need to have an awareness of social and economic issues that are not addressed by the Republicans or Democrats but I don't want to see another eight years of Republican war mongering because Ralph likes to see his name in print. Obama or Clinton might not be the answer for most of our problems but either one is a better starting off place than McCain. Politicians - and that includes Nader - have big egos that are fueled by public adoration and the courting of their favor by the rich and/or powerful. Yes, even those with big egos can do good, but how many times have we ever seen someone back out of a race not because they were losing in the primaries but because they actually thought that another candidate was the better person for the job or the right person for the times? Nader is no exception. After eight years of government from saddle back, that he is partially responsible for, you'd think he'd have the courage, grace and humility to stay out. Welcome to American politics where even the "good guys" are out to get their own. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Cool Beans Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:57 AM Nader is evil. He gave us George W. Bush: hence, a bunch of arch-Conservatives on the Supreme Court, anti-science thinking in the administration, secrecry, war, idealogical idiocy and so on. Anyone else who thinks there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats is terrifyingly naive. I hope Nader dies a quiet, natural and imminent death. (But how do I really feel?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM Yes, the media marginalized Nader the minute he walked off the set of Meet the Press. Their only interest in putting him on was to get "the scoop". Nader knew that, which is why he kept mentioning his web site. This will likely be the last campaign that can rely on the internet to get the word out by going around MSM. By 2012, the Democrats and Republicans will have closed that gate and padlocked it, so we can't organize online anymore. The biggest threat to the status quo right now is us doing online organizing for a major name recognition indie/3rd party candidate--like Nader, and independent news reporting, like Democracy Now does. If every True Blue Believer would read Jeffrey Scahill's book "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army" they would definitely be re-examining their beliefs about voting Clinton or Obama in the fall. Seriously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: artbrooks Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:01 PM Lets see...Gore lost Florida by 500 votes. Nader got 95,000 votes in Florida. Who needed the Supreme Court and Diebold? He has no chance of being elected, and he knows it - his only potential value is as a spoiler. Wonder if the Republican National Committee is supporting him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM "but why is it always grandstanding" The 3 loudest grandstanders in the U.S. right now are the 3 big candidates ... all 3 who you maybe reminded are currently elected representatives of the people of the U.S. ... remember the hope and enthusiasm when the dems took the majority in the mid-term elections ... well, it's been Christmas Time in Washington as usual. Nothing changed. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM Nader isn't fighting a tide, he is leading a progressive social change movement. Has been for 40 years. There's yer trouble, if you think of Nader in conventional political terms. He isn't a career politician, he is a citizen activist. HUGE difference. Also, Nader isn't 'coming into this so late'. Third party and indie presidential candidates don't even get going until now, because they don't compete in the two party primary system. The don't have the money to run perpetual campaigns, the way the corporate parties do. If Obama wasn't a status quo candidate, he wouldn't be pulling in 50 million US dollars a month, bro. Follow the money. He is the LEADING FUNDRAISER OF CORPORATE DONATIONS. You say the military industrial complex ain't behind Obama, I say you are blind. Ralph's decision to run was predicated by the Democratic party field and the independent, third party field. We now know the Dem nom is either Obama or Clinton, and that no third party/indie candidate has announced a run. He is rushing in to fill the political vacuum left by Kucinich and Edwards dropping out of the race. Kucinich didn't drop out for the reason stated above. Kucinich dropped out because he knew he wouldn't win AND he is in danger of losing his seat in US House of Representatives because of a renegade run by a Democratic party opponent in his district. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:12 PM Anyone who hasn't heard from Ralph Nader since the last presidential race has been listening to MSM sources only. Nader has been as active as ever since 2004. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM Good posts Guests ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:14 PM So Dan, would you support a law passed by the US Congress that said only the Democratic and Republican parties are legal parties in the US, and all other parties are hereby illegal? Because there are plenty of countries like that around the world. Are you ready to make the US one of them, just to protect your precious Democratic party? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:17 PM No, the Democratic party is at fault for Bush/Cheney, Inc. If Al Gore had carried his home state of Tennessee in 2000, he would have been president. It isn't Nader's fault Al Gore couldn't win votes. That is Al Gore & the Democratic party's fault. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: van lingle Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM Great plan you got there GG. Let's whip up a rabid progressive movement and get Ralph a small fraction of the popular vote (if he's capable of that) that might be just enough to bring Gore, excuse me, Obama, up short of the amount of votes he'll need to offset the ruling parties hanky panky at the polls in the general election thereby giving us 4-8 more years of a "War President", a big increase in defense spending, soldiers with spouses and children looking at another 5 or 6 deployments, executive orders written by lobbyists, continuing tax relief for the top percentile and no chance at all for health care reform. Great plan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:23 PM Nader entering the race isn't about getting him into the White House, it is about him getting enough votes to force the politicians to change the way they are doing business. Nader's reason for entering the ring are far, far different than the reasons a Democratic or Republican gets in the ring. Nader is a social change citizen activist, not a party politician. Those who keep calling him a spoiler don't understand that democracies need Naders, or they are dictatorships. Which is what we are actually on the brink of becoming in this election cycle, IMO. I am so relieved Nader is running. SO relieved. Since Edwards and Kucininch pulled out, I have been morose and depressed, and ready to move to another country. At least now, there is a reason to stay and fight one more time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Big Mick Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:24 PM There is a certain element of truth to that GG. But one cannot deny the monomaniacal aspects of Nader's continual tilting at the windmill. And while you are justified in your criticism of the Gore strategy, one also cannot deny the pragmatic effect of that loss, as pointed out by Cool Beans and Charley Noble. One also cannot deny the hard numbers that were demonstrably siphoned off from the Gore votes by Nader. In other threads, I have noted a slant on your posts in which you express some very guarded hopes about knocking off "the war machine" and the disastrous economic policies of the Republicans. I am almost reading into it that you hope for an Obama win. I don't mean to speak for you, but that certainly is the hope of many. While I get the philosophical wish, and the admiration for the Naders and Kucinichs, I want the very best chance at effecting real change. Nader exercising his Harold Stassen-like campaign just doesn't do that for me. It doesn't add to the debate, it seems to muddy it. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Bill D Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM In order for 3rd & 4th parties to be effective in the US, and not just spoilers, we would need to change the way elections are run, AND the way power is shared and allocated in Congress.....anyone want to moderate the debate on how that is to be accomplished? I am sort of in favor of the idea, but everyone who HAS any power would be unwilling to change the system under which they got it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM GG- Here's a dumb question. Who or what is the "MSM"? Somehow I don't think you're referring to "methylsulfonylmethane" but I could be wrong. The last time I voted for Nader was back in 1968, in the aftermath of the Chicago debacle. A presidential run by Ralph Nader can hardly be described as a "grassroots" campaign. I seriously doubt if more than a few thousand people from around the country will pitch in and help. It's more likely that he'll personally finance his own campaign with a few donations from loyal supporters and some wealth Republicans cynically pitching in who do view him as a potential spoiler. I don't view Nader as a spoiler this time around. I doubt if he'll attract enough attention to merit that title. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM That is just the same old character assassination Mick, and you know it. Show me a leader of Nader's stature that hasn't ruffled feathers, rubbed people the wrong way, occassionally taken a dictatorial approach, whatever. It comes with the territory, and you, better than most because you are an organizer, know it. He isn't tilting at windmills. He is trying to force change to a moribund, bloated, plutocracy teetering on the brink of dictatorship. You know how this works Mick. If Clinton or Obama wins, they lull the electorate into a sense of complacency with a Democratic Party status quo. I'd rather see McCain win, honestly. Nothing concentrates the focus more than having an easy to define nemesis. The nation needs deep, systemic change. The plutocracy has all the money, all the guns, and is building prisons at an alarming rate. You tell me how it will go when they shut off our access to the internet, lock out all political parties but the two in their pockets, censor the news through corporate media channels sanctioned by the government, and start throwing people like me and you into dissenter's prison? This is the road we are on, and we will arrive there by 2012, 2016 at the latest. And no, I don't think I'm being the least bit alarmist. And I think Obama and Clinton are just as likely to put us in that place as McCain is. The time for supporting Democratic presidential candidates is over for this year. We have an alternative that can force change, not instill false hope for it as a means of keeping everyone home on the couch in front of the corporate TV, instead of in the streets working for meaningful change in their neighborhoods, cities, states, and gasp! the nation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:40 PM The other aspect of Gigi's somewhat smarmy superiority in this thread is the covert nullification of Obama's promise of change. Her implicit argument is that he is funded by corporations in a way similar to all other and prior candidates, and therefore he will not implement change -- at least not the ones she wants. I find this position meretricious, and not sup[ported by specifics on issues. I'd like to see a white paper on fundamental changes program, written by Nader, and Gigi, and ilk, placed in the hands of the Obama strategy group before he gets sworn in in November. That would give them a shot at getting their sense of importances heard and possibly even acted on, by someone (unlike themselves) who is practical enough to make things happen in an insanely politicized environment. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Alice Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:43 PM I liked Nader in the 60's. He has become a narcissist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: George Papavgeris Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:46 PM I am too far from it all to make proper sense, but - didn't our own Sh*mbl*s run his campaigns in a similar style to Nader's? Not trying to stir anything other than wanting to understand how Nader hopes to bring about a result that will be closer to his own aspirations, through his involvement? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:53 PM Nader was an effective crusader--almost 50 years ago. He was responsible for the fact that corporations bear some responsibility for their products. I fail to see that he's done anything useful since then. The Corvair is long out of production. Nader should join it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM Charley, you are playing games. You know full well what MSM stands for, because you 'asked' me the same question in another thread recently. Nader didn't run for president in 1968. He allowed his name to be used as a write-in 'none of the above' candidacy in 1992. He was drafted by the Greens in 1996, and he was on the ballot in places where the Greens petitioned to get him on. 2000 was the first time Ralph Nader actively ran as a presidential candidate trying to get on the ballot in all 50 states. In 2004, the Democratic National Party actively sought court orders to keep him off the ballot in many states. The MSM refused to let him participate in debates, even though he met most of the tests that had put forth when they allowed Ross Perot to participate in debates in 1992's Bush v Clinton race. The deck is completely stacked against Nader gaining any ground by getting his message out to voters--especially by plutocrat surrogates of the MSM, who will likely also refuse to run his ads (as they did in 2004 to him and to the anti-war movements ads) as well as keep him off the debates, and by the Democratic National Party's court challenges to him on the state ballots to keep voters from even having the chance to vote for him. But I'm going to work for him anyway, because I believe Nader's candidacy is our last best hope for saving the country from dictatorship. The laws are all in place now for any president to declare martial law, and start filling up prisons with dissenters. Voting for Obama or Clinton won't stop that from happening. It might not even delay it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:07 PM dick greenhouse .... just do some surfing on the net ... you'll discover what Nader has done since the 'Corvair'. Take a look at the non-profit organizations he has started. I think Nader represents the finest when it comes to someone looking out and taking leadership in the interests of the common citizen. More so than what any of the 3 big candidates have accomplished. He is someone the U.S. should be proud of. Not someone to ridiculed as the crazy uncle up in the attic. That's the label Washington want you to believe in. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Sorcha Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:14 PM Well, GiGi, I HAVE voted for Nader...in the past. So, how much good did it REALLY DO? None. Nada. Not one iota. He CAN'T win and he knows it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM GG - "Kucinich didn't drop out for the reason stated above. Kucinich dropped out because he knew he wouldn't win AND he is in danger of losing his seat in US House of Representatives because of a renegade run by a Democratic party opponent in his district." Dead right. Kucinich is fighting for political survival in his own Cleveland Congressional riding right now, because the coporatocracy is doing everything they can to end his political career (short of assassinating him). Your post of 24 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM, GG, is very interesting to read. It's a good thumbnail sketch of how the $ySStem works. "It is controlled by a ruling oligarchy that uses the two party system like a gladiator game. You have a red team and a blue team. You have the Democratic brand and Republican brand. They fight to a draw, so you will come back in four years and watch the very same media spectacle all over again with different players from the same teams..." That's it. Now, I have always preferred the Democrats when it comes to those 2 teams...and I would usually vote for them rather than the Republicans, if that was the only choice put in front of me, but I'm under no illusions as to who the Democrats work for. They work for the great corporatocracy, same as the Republicans. They have a sort of "kinder, gentler" superficial outer style than the Republicans do, which is why I like them better. They do not so overtly worship militarism and severity. The Republicans' outer style makes my gorge rise. Sadly, though, I do not regard the Democrats as being any real agent for change in the way the $ySStem works. Once in office they play the same old game...and that game leads to war, deception, and betrayal. Is there any possible way out? I doubt it. The MSM and the $ySStem are too powerful, I think, for any way out to be found. Someone asked what "MSM" means. It means the MainStream Media (TV primarily, radio and press secondarily). The only real chink in their armour is the Internet...which they presently cannot control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:20 PM Of course he can't win Sorcha ... and your vote did count, and everyone who voted for him did make a statement ... problem is, is anyone listening. Has anyone of the 3 candidates taken heed of what Nader stands for? That's what Nader is trying to make a point of ... democracy has failed in the U.S. ..... the interests of the people are not at hand ... it's the interests of 'corporate America' that have the power and the interest. Protection of the status quo, and Nader is a threat to that. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM Anyone who thinks that Nader hasn't been successful at bringing about substantial, meaningful changes since the 60s doesn't know squat about Nader, or about the major social change and social justice movements of our time. They are just whining, because they are afraid of him. If you want a list of what Nader's positions are, where he stands on the issues, what his accomplishments are, those things aren't hard to verify independently online in a matter of hours. Which is far more effort than most Mudcatters opposing Nader here are willing to put in, I know. Because based upon what people are saying about the conventional candidates, they aren't even willing to get information about those candidates from anywhere except the Mudcat forum and MSM sources. Sad that so many are so unwilling to think outside the box for the good of the nation, and are only willing to stick with their partisan driven, status quo way of thinking from 2004 and 2000. After two substantial losses, and no change from the Democrats after re-taking control of Congress, one would think people would wake up and smell the corporate coffee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:33 PM Like I said, anyone who claims to have 'voted for Nader' in the past, but it didn't do any good, hasn't a clue as to what Nader's campaigns are about. So IMO, there isn't any reason to listen to anyone making claims like that, because they don't mean anything. Anyone who votes for Nader knows the chances of his winning are slim. Possible, of course. But slim. A vote for Nader shouldn't be a vote against the other guys. It should be a vote for him as a candidate who would make a good president, to register a protest vote to the status quo politicians that we can't be bought, telling them we will continue to organize, and eventually throw them out of office like the bums they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM But I'm going to work for him anyway, because I believe Nader's candidacy is our last best hope for saving the country from dictatorship. I don't get it, to be quite honest. If he has no chance of getting on the November ballot, and less than that of winning the general election, the return on your effort will be the degree to which you can get his views out as statements, for the education of others who do get elected -- is that right? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Charley Noble Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:38 PM Littlehawk- "MSM" means Main Stream Media. It's true I've never run across the term before I Goggled it this morning. Odd, I thought I'd been paying attention. Must be spending too much time watching CNN. If Gigi explained that term to me in one of her previous threads, I failed to notice her response. But then she starts so many threads and my tiny brain can only deal with sifting through a few of them. Now I have to relearn a major portion of U. S. history: "Anyone who thinks that Nader hasn't been successful at bringing about substantial, meaningful changes since the 60s doesn't know squat about Nader, or about the major social change and social justice movements of our time." Where will it ever end? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Alice Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM "After two substantial losses, " Gore lost because Nader pulled away just enough votes for Bush to be declared the winner. Wake up and smell the green tea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM I would sooner vote for root canal without painkiller before I would cast a vote for Nader, but I am very glad that he has entered the race. I bought the same crap about Nader losing the race for Gore and Kerry. That is pure bullshit. Gore lost Florida by 500 votes? That means that there were more people who did not buy his message. The problems has never been too many choices, it is simply politicians who cannot sell their message to enough voters. I hate to agree with anonymous guests, but this lady is right - a vote for Nader is NOT a vote against the other guys. It is a vote for a message. Nader is not the brightest bulb in the pack. His message is too diluted and he lacks the attention span to deal with the complexity of issues. One trick pony presidents do not cut it. I applaud him for throwing his hat in the ring, but I feel that anyone who votes for him are just a few bricks short of the load. Anyone who can stir things up and get the politicians to address real issues and real corporate felonies is doing a service. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:45 PM Nader doesn't have to win the presidency. He is running to win something far more important--hearts and minds. He needs to win over young people to get in the game FOR LIFE, not just during their idealist youth, like the "back in the 60s" cynics around this place. he needs to win back those "back in the 60s" cynics, to work once again for the good of our public welare, our nation, our world, our future generations that they are always so busy pontificating about and claiming they care so much for--from their couches. That's the good fight. Not corporate politics as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM How much attention do you think the MSM will give to his views on the issues, Ron? Not much, I'd wager. Well, we'll see... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: kendall Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM Guest Guest, the democrats have a slim majority in the Senate. Hardly enough to call it "Control". What we need is a person LIKE Nader, that is, in political philosophy, who can get elected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:51 PM Damn Republican dirty trick again! McCain must be desperate getting Nader in to split the Democrat vote. Oh, the shame of it all! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM From today's Huffington Post: Stop Blaming Ralph Posted February 24, 2008 | 12:15 PM (EST) Allison Kilkenny The Democrats like to cast blame for why they continually lose elections. Karl Rove's dream of a permanent Republican majority, while eventually thwarted because of Bush fatigue, was only possible because the Democrats failed to form a compelling ideology for a globalized economy. Definition through negation works in some preliminary stump speeches, but eventually voters want answers. It's not enough to be Not-Republicans. How, exactly, are Democrats different than Republicans? Spouting tired rhetoric about the New Deal and social welfare worked for a country teetering on the brink of Socialism during FDR's reign, but what now? How are the Fat Cats in the Democratic party different than the Fat Cats in the Republican wing? And Universal health care hardly seems like revolutionary thinking when the very insurance companies who have been exploiting sick Americans are invited to the negotiation table. Well, to be fair, they paid for their seats at the table, since they have donated millions to the presidential candidates. The fact that it is 2008 and we're still debating if all people should be given health care, fair trials, shelter (even if they accepted outrageous mortgage loans from predatory banks,) and if we should or shouldn't parade around the globe like some kind of colonizing juggernaut should alert readers to the state of the union. Democrats are in trouble. They're so in trouble that the Democratic party - the liberal voice of reason - would be unrecognizable to the lefties of yesterday. Why are issues of nuclear disarmament, alternative sources of fuel, a department of peace, immediate Iraqi troop withdrawal, and media diversification constantly forced into the margins of debate? Instead, politicians wade through a swamp of semantics, where they bicker over 30 or 60 or 90 day moratoriums on home foreclosures, negotiating with the banks instead of defending the American citizens. They talk about building permanent military bases in Iraq and a gradual withdrawal of troops, as if our continued presence in that land will bring anything expect death and destruction for more Iraqis and U.S. troops - as if a multilateral peace-keeping mission could be worse than the corruption and ineptitude that has already leveled the country. Yet, many are quick to crucify Ralph Nader when he speaks for real change. Many Americans blame him for Al Gore's defeat in 2000. Though, curiously, no Republican ever accuses Pat Buchanan of stealing votes from Bush in Florida, though Pat did take many votes from the then Governor. Pat even took some of Bush's votes in Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon, and Wisconsin, but because Bush squeaked ahead in the polls, individuals fail to reflect upon that. Bush won (historically, not technically,) and so the Republicans don't obsessively analyze Florida's hanging chads like Democrats do. Democrats see themselves as a repressed minority, and so they wander around the political landscape like poor Midwesterns after a tornado tears through their trailer park. They just keep looking around, going, "What HAPPENED?!" We live in a Democracy, which operates under the theory that ANYONE can run for president. Unfortunately, that usually means anyone who is rich, but if a candidate can raise enough cash, then he or she can join the party. Otherwise, if we don't have competition in politics, if we attach exceptions to the rule of democracy, then we might as well live under a monarchy, plutocracy, or totalitarian system of government. Thankfully, this is America, and we like diversity in politics rather than an endless cycle of Anglo-Saxon descendants of wealthy plantation owners. Anyone can run for president, even the most unpredictable beast of the animal kingdom -- an Environmentalist. It's easy to blame Ralph because, well, he possesses the stubbornness of the last sane man in a world of screaming lunatics. He has spent his life working to protect the repressed and exploited, even though they never thank him. In fact, they frequently mock him like dumb bullies do to the smart kid in the class, who always raises his hand when he knows the answer instead of remaining mute so people will like him. It's harder to blame Al Gore for Al Gore's defeat. It's difficult to examine the party as a whole and realize the Democrat's have yet to offer the American people a compelling argument for the next decade, and maybe that's why Al couldn't sway more independents to his side and lower the hammer in Florida. The election wouldn't have come down to a few hundred votes if Al had blown through the rest of the states with a compelling mission statement, if he had wowed voters with exciting ideologies to carry us into a world with a globalized marketplace. Or perhaps a shiny new business model for how the United States can compete with a country supporting itself on slave labor, like China. Better yet, what of a humanitarian coalition of the willing, where all countries are asked to pay fair wages, not just out of altruistic duty for our fellow human beings, but so that Americans can play on a level market field so that their jobs aren't shipped overseas? Al didn't deal with specifics. He simply bet that voters could see that he was smarter and more experienced than Bush. Well, we know how that worked out. None of this is Ralph's fault. He's always had specific plans, and his vision never falters. People hate Ralph because, much like that asshole teacher in eighth grade who wouldn't let you skate by, he challenges us. He pushes the country left when the pendulum forever presses right. In a world of free trade and winner-take-all attitudes, Ralph fights for the environment, workers, and victims everywhere. And yes, he will get votes, but he steals nothing from politicians who don't willingly surrender their campaigns to mediocrity, or voters who cast ballots true to their consciences. A truly compelling Democratic nominee will win blue votes, and some reds and independents. However, if the Democratic nominee offers Americans more of the same centrist-right rhetoric brought to us during the Clinton years, if they cater to Big Business and Wall Street, then we may see a repeat of the 2000 election. And it won't be Ralph's fault. It will be our own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:54 PM We need Nader to run as a separate candidate AND Huckabee AND Ron Paul to ALL do likewise...whilst McCain and HillaryorObama run as the main Machine candidates! ;-) Now, that would make for an amusing and interesting election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:10 PM What we need is not a business as usual campaign, and I for one am praying Nader can pull this one off. We are in Last Chance Texaco territory, people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:13 PM Nader is egotistical, someone said? Well, here is what Friedrich Nietzsche has to say: "Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: EBarnacle Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:13 PM When you come right down to it, Nader's fame is based upon his condemning something which, while certainly not perfect, was being developed and improved. [The turbo Corsa was a heckuva good car. I even raced them--on ice.] To the best of my knowledge, he has never had a driver's license and has never driven any of the vehicles he had an effect on. Much of his reputation is based on taking stands on things he has had a marginal knowledge of. Somehow, he never caught up with the Pinto, a much deadlier vehicle than the 'vair. He and his friends have gone out of their way to kill the development of nuclear technology in this country. Instead they rant about running out of organic fuels. Had we followed the logical route of development, we would be approaching fusion as a viable energy source--clean, too. Nader the thinking man--NOT! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM EBarnacle, Nader has done A LOT more than just the Corvair. BTW, do you have an airbag in the car you drive, by any chance? And why would Time Magazine, of all MSM rags, have named him one of the '100 Most Influential Americans of the 20th Century' if all he ever did was get Corvairs off the road? You have Ralph Nader and his deeply committed team of activists to thank for safer cars, healthier foods, better air quality, cleaner water, and safer work environments. He didn't get any of that accomplished sitting on his ass in Congress. He did it by pushing Congress, by shaming Congress, by haranguing Congress, by organizing grassroots political opposition to Congress. Yes, and he has gone out of his way to kill the nuclear industry in this country. So have I, and millions of other Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:27 PM "How much attention do you think the MSM will give to his views on the issues, Ron?" Who is expecting the main stream media to give him any coverage? The media will only cover issues that are sexy and taking down corporations does not have that appeal. The media is the media. You aren't going to change it with 1000 Nader's. People are more interested in Angelina's bulging tummy than watching Meet the Press. A bunch of OTH's sitting around Mudcat are not even a slight representation of the the voters in the U.S., and certainly Canucks and Brits have little impact. You need more than Nader to make a change, but he certainly is a start in the right direction. The more voices that come forward and make some noise, the sooner the public gets their head out of their ass and stars to react. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:31 PM Actually, we will change it, and with far fewer than 1000 Naders. You only need one Nader & his team, in fact, to bring about substantial changes in US regulatory law, as he has demonstrated time and again. So what's your beef there Ron? You don't want to see the American public take back the airwaves from the corrupt FCC and protect their rights to free and unemcumbered access to and political uses of the Internet? You opposed to throwing the Wall Street scum off the Securities and Exchange Commission? What's your deal, then? Elect a Dem placeholder to the White House and keep our fingers crossed? Yeah, now THERE is a proven, winning strategy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Lonesome EJ Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:37 PM Nader is after nothing but notoriety and matching funds. Those who are naive enough to think he plays any sort of serious role in the process would deserve sympathy if it wasn't for the fact that this dolt and his legions are as responsible as the right wing extremists for Bush's 8 years and the accompanying disasters that have befallen this country. He needs to find another hobby and income source. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Donuel Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:53 PM The military industrial complex and the CIA mind set are respondxible for bush CHENEY, along with a handfull of banking families whose wealth is measured in the trillions of dollars. Ralph did split the vote way back when however the bush packed Supream Court decided the election. Beyond this Ralph is only guilty of speaking to Corporate Power in terms we all can understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:54 PM Just for the record, here are the Democrat presidential candidates for the last 40 years: Hubert Humphrey George McGovern Jimmy Carter Walter Mondale Michael Dukakis "Worthless Willie" Clinton Albert Gore Jr John Kerry Does that list really make anyone's chest swell with pride? I doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM Sorry to dispoint Guest, but I agree with you - I would LOVE the citizens of this country to wake up and stop the FCC from tearing away at our freedoms. I would love to see the bloodsuckers on Wall Street get their just due. I would love to see change in this country. What you fail to realize, is that many of us do not see Ralph Nader as the saviour. His ego, lack of experience, and lack of interest on other issues would be a huge burden for this country - and I truely feel we would be worse under a Nader administration than we are under Bush, and Bush is the worst occupant that ever occupied the White House. We need people like Nader to bring up issues, but more importantly we need people to pay attention. They won't pay attention to Nader, or some anonymous troll on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM I love that list PDQ. Look at the alternatives - Richard Nixon Gerald Ford Ronald Reagan George Bush Robert Dole George Bush Not exactly Mt. Rushmore material. More like clown school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:04 PM Sorry, Ron, but they all flunked out of clown school. Dukakis, Humphrey and Mondale (and maybe a few others) all passed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:09 PM They couldn't even hack clown school? I guess most conservatives were never good in school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM OK Ron. So, how will voting for the Dem nominee change the course the US is on again? Exactly? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Lonesome EJ Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM Ron O, I believe that Reagan won't get a spot on Rushmore, but his supporters are shooting for a large monument in Washington on the Mall between the Lincoln Memorial and the reflecting pool. In true conservative fashion, this monstrosity will not be paid for out of private funds. Of course WE TAXPAYERS will pay for it, just like we paid for the S&L scandal, the Wall Street debacle, and the Home Loan boondoggle. All coincidentally coming while Republicans were in office. Government over-spending is good, it seems, as long as they are in office when it happens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:33 PM Please folks, let's not revert to 'them 'publicans done bad' as usual. The question here is: Why did Democrat failures cause Nader to feel the need to run again? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM "OK Ron. So, how will voting for the Dem nominee change the course the US is on again? Exactly? " Am I a fortune teller? Do you think you know what the future holds? Nader would certainly change the course, but that does not mean it would be a better one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: kendall Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:45 PM He's running because of democrat failures? Seems to me that republicans have been in control for the last 15 years. The democrats have a slim margin in the senate, one or two votes? He stands the same chance as a snowball in Hell. He knows it, or does he think his chance is better than Teddy Roosevelt? No third party candidate has ever won the office, and it is because the voters don't vote for them. I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM I just don't see why Nader entering the Presidential race really forwards his cause. Whatever good he has done successfully, has been done from the private sector. Whatever confusion he has added to the national dialogue has been injected by his political campaigns. Why the hell is he going to spend his money and time on a campaign that will not win, and only lessens the chances of putting someone decent in Bush's place? This makes little or no sense; if all he is after is exposure to his programmatic aims, he can flout his vision the way he has successfully done so in the past. His spoiling of the Gore campaign certainly did not lead to an endorsement of his platform. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 03:58 PM It forwards the nation's causes. He hasn't worked in the private sector, he has worked in the public sector. He doesn't confuse the national dialogue, he clarifies it--if you can't understand what he is talking about, then you aren't listening to him. He is extremely articulate, doesn't use much fancy language. This isn't difficult, boys. Nader doesn't spend his own money on the presidential campaigns. It took his 2000 campaign quite some time to retire it's debts. But it did do it. Nader counts on fundraising to wage his campaigns, and his shoestring campaign budget is the stuff of legends. There is no decent Democratic candidate that will be 'put in Bush's place' this year. Zero chance of that. Finally, I'm glad the world didn't have to rely on this lot to end slavery or give women the vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:18 PM Get used to saying it, folks: President McCain. And his Forever War. Thanks, Ralph! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:26 PM Sad and pathetic you can't overcome that vindictive streak of yours, Don. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Dan Keding Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:44 PM GG - if you could calm down a bit and stop stating everything in absolutes life would be easier for you and for everyone else reading your posts. You obviously didn't read mine or if you did you only remembered what you wanted to remember. I stated very firmly that I believed we needed more than two parties in this country and yet you accused me of otherwise. How do you know who I have supported in the past or who I have voted for in the past? Do you know for sure that I have never voted for a Green Party or other third party candidate in any election? If you think so then you are wrong. Do you think I vote lockstep with the Democrats on every election and on every issue? You're wrong. I do think that if we are to have viable national third party candidates then it must come from the people not from the media. It should come from a grass roots movement that delivers power back to the people through local and state elections. Even the Green Party and the Libertarians have been unsuccessful locally in most states. Maybe we are all wrong. Maybe nothing will ever change. But if people still continue to have enough faith to VOTE then we should not diminish that faith. If you want to work for Nader because he will bring change then I think you should do just that and for you that is right and I applaud your decision. But if I choose to vote for someone else who I think can bring about change then who are you to attack me or anyone else on this forum just because we don't agree with you. There are a lot of good people who will be voting for Obama or Clinton who marched and worked to get the vote for African Americans and try to put an end to discrimination and who marched and worked to end the Viet Nam war. There are people who you are insulting who have been in the trenches and are proud of what they've done and don't need to be preached at for their political views. Enough said. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Alice Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:48 PM Thank you, Dan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:50 PM Nader is not to blame - that is too easy. If the candidate has the right ideas, he or she will get the votes. If they do not, they won't. Plain and simple. It isn't Nader's fault that Gore and Kerry could not convince enough people. That excuse is tired and doesn't work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM Nice speach, but the Viet Nam War is over, women can vote and Blacks are more free in the United States than they are in most of Africa. How about talking issues. Social Security will be bankrup in a decade or less, Mexico has over 32 million of it's citizens living in the United States and our national debt is over 9 trillion dollars. What we get from The Big Three candidates is fluff that appeals to watchers of Oprah Winfrey. Yes, something must change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM Sad and pathetic you can't overcome that vindictive streak of yours, Don. Um...are you the pot here? Or the kettle? Your assertive condescension is as vindictive as anything seen on this forum, repeatedly; and it is not like it hasn't been mentioned, or that you haven't seen its effects for yourself. As for Nader, well and good. Give him everything you've got, and I hope ti helps the nation. I disagree profoundly with your estimate of Barack obama, but I think only time will tell if the center of his potential will hold under the pressures of the post. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:10 PM Dan, do you believe Ralph Nader should not run, so that the Democrats have (according to you) a better chance of winning in November? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:15 PM Well, well, well... This ol' Obama-hillybilly is glad to see mah main man, Nader, in the race... (Are you nut's, Bobertz???) Maybe, but that isn't the issue here... Ralph is taking over where the media cut Kucinich down... Ralph will make Obama a better candidate... He will make the Dems squirm... That a good thing... The Dems lost in 2000 becuase they didn't have the balls to hire thugs and lawyers to disrupt the recount in Florida... Not becuase of Ralph Nader... Hey, if they want to be seen a tough enough to deal with the rpoblems that the country has then they had better be ready to rumble with McCain... This is where Nader helps... Not hinders... If Obama is to truely get behind changing the way things are done in Washington then he needs Ralph to be out there exposing how the corporations are running the show... Like I've said, I will vote and perhaps work for Obama but I still consider my values and opinions closer to Nader, a guy I been voting for every 4 years going way back, than to Obama's... So, welcome back, Ralph... Sorry I'm gonna go ther other way this time but glad as Hell yer in the mix... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: artbrooks Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:19 PM The Democrats do not have a majority in the Senate. There are currently 49 Democrats, 49 Republicans and 2 Independents (Lieberman and Sanders). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Feb 08 - 05:51 PM I spent a number of years working for an organization where Nader was on the board of directors. He did his damndest to destroy the entire operation in order to convert a product-testing outfit into a collection of legal advocacy centers. The man is a nut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Dan Keding Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM I think that if Nader wants to run then he should BUT I also think that Nader should have been more active - not just as someone who is pointing out the ills in a very troubled society - but also as someone who has been organizing and starting grass roots political action on a very local level, helping independents and third party candidates win, and stressing the importance of youth in our political theater. I have not seen that from him and it makes me suspect his national motives. I have never said he wasn't a good and honorable man, even good people have egos and are sometimes caught up in their own myths. No one can deny the good he has done in the past and will probably do in the future but that doesn't mean he is the right person at this time in history. I agree with the poster who says that he adds a certain honesty to the campaign that may or may not but hopefully will embolden the Democrats to address some issues they may have otherwise ignored - we'll see. To be honest the political exchange on this thread has reinforced the reason why I don't usually address forums like this. Too much sarcasm and not enough respect. PDQ, I know about the issues of the day and I have worked on a local level do something about many of them, I was addressing the condescending attitude that was being used toward people whose history in politics and change GG and obviously yourself probably didn't know anything about. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM Sounds like a personal issue to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:13 PM "I was addressing the condescending attitude that was being used toward people whose history in politics and change GG and obviously yourself probably didn't know anything about." Amazing. You say you hate a condescending attitude and the cop one. Classic hypocrisy. And don't pat yourself on the back too much about community activism, because the people who really make this country run are the people who grow the crops, drive the trucks, build the cars, put out fires and develope new medicines. Etc.etc.etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM There's nothing easier than spotting one's own character flaws in another, is there? ;-) Again, standard human behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM Dan, again, Nader has done all those things you claim he has never done, and recently. He works practically round the clock. He has founded a good number of non-profit advocacy organizations, organized right alongside the Greens on a grassroots level. Whether you think it polite of me to say so or not, it seems quite obvious you don't know much of anything about Ralph Nader, because what you are describing has no relationship to his very public record of civil society advocacy and stellar accomplishments--like I said, even Time Magazine put him on the list of their 100 Most Influential Americans of the 20th Century. That doesn't sound, to me, like someone who hasn't been active. Quite the opposite. Which leads me to question your motives for claiming Nader hasn't done what the Nader record clearly shows he has done. Why do you feel compelled to lie about Nader like that? Now then, if you wish to vote for the Democrats, that's fine. But why this disingenuous attack against Nader? Why are you so afraid of Ralph Nader you would come into this thread--something you claim you rarely do--just to diss him & lie about him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Dan Keding Date: 24 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM GG, If I seemed to belittle what Nader has done in the past I am sorry for that. If you read my last post I'm sure you'll see that I did not say anything disrespectful. I will say this one more time though, I have not seen any grass roots accomplishments in getting third party candidates elected locally on a scale that would challenge the Democrats or Republicans or that would make them address issues they have ignored. If Nader wants to run a presidential campaign that's fine with me, I don't care. But I do think that given his past record I just wonder why there hasn't been a ground swell on the local level of support for third party candidates? Why are Green Party candidates seldom elected and why do we not have a viable third party in this country? If Nader has been working tirelessly on this front for all these years why are the results so dismal? Is it a lie that we do not have a viable third party? Is it a lie that even on a local level the two parties seem to have a strangle hold on American politics? Is it a lie that third party candidates are not winning on a level to even begin to challenge the status quo? I have no answers to these questions. They may be beyond anyone's current knowledge. I'm not afraid of Nader nor am I demeaning his character or his accomplishments. Perhaps it will take more than a Ralph Nader to shake up this country and introduce true, dynamic change into our political system. But don't accuse me of lying when all I see are questions. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM Quite the contrary of what you claim, I found what you said to be disrespectful, and intentionally so. Also, passive aggressive, as your last post is too. Do you think we can't tell you are oozing with hostility toward Nader? And that post after post, you state outright lies, and then turn around and claim on the one hand, the results of the man's life work are--to quote you--'dismal' and then in the same breath claim 'nor am I demeaning his character or accomplishments'. You are as stunning an example of Rovian character to have posted here in quite some time. And Dan--you are a liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 07:49 PM That is a bit strong, GG. Most hypocrits do dot consider themselves to be liars. Just misunderstood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:09 PM But just because they don't perceive themselves as liars doesn't mean they aren't liars. Here, for the record over at biographybase.com, is a list of some of Nader's accomplishments: Ralph Nader Biography Ralph Nader (born February 27, 1934) is an activist who targets large American corporations on environmental and consumer rights issues. He was the U.S. presidential candidate of the Green Party in 1996 and 2000. In both runs Winona LaDuke was his vice-presidential running mate. He is an independent candidate in the 2004 U.S. presidential election. Early career Ralph Nader was born in Winsted, Connecticut to Lebanese immigrant parents, Nathra and Rose Nader. He graduated from Princeton in 1955 and Harvard Law School in 1958. In 1963, then 29, Nader hitchhiked to Washington, DC and got a job working for then Assistant Secretary of Labor Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He did freelance writing for The Nation and the Christian Science Monitor and advised a Senate subcommittee on automobile safety. Clash with the automobile industry In 1965 he released Unsafe at Any Speed, a study claiming many American automobiles, especially those of General Motors, to be structurally flawed. GM tried to discredit Nader, hiring private detectives to investigate his past and attempt to trap him in a compromising situation, but the effort failed. Upon learning of this harassment, Nader then successfully sued the company for invasion of privacy, forced it to publicly apologize, and used the winnings to expand his consumer rights efforts. Activist movement Hundreds of young activists, inspired by Nader's work, came to DC to help him with other projects. They came to be known as "Nader's Raiders" and, led by Nader, they investigated corruption throughout government, publishing dozens of books with their results: Nader's Raiders (Federal Trade Commission) Vanishing Air (National Air Pollution Control Administration) The Chemical Feast (Food and Drug Administration) The Interstate Commerce Omission (Interstate Commerce Commission) Old Age (nursing homes) The Water Lords (water pollution) Who Runs Congress? (congress) Whistle Blowing (punishment of whistle blowers) The Big Boys (corporate executives) Collision Course (Federal Aviation Administration) No Contest (corporate lawyers) In 1971, Nader founded the NGO Public Citizen as an umbrella organization for these projects. Today, Public Citizen has over 150,000 members and numerous researchers investigating Congress, health, environmental, economic, and other issues. Their work is credited with helping to pass the Safe Drinking Water Act and Freedom of Information Act and prompting the creation of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and Consumer Product Safety Administration. Their various divisions include: Buyers Up Citizen Action Group Congress Watch Critical Mass Energy Project Global Trade Watch Health Research Group Litigation Group Tax Reform Research Group The Visitor's Center Non-profit organizations In 1980 Nader resigned as director of Public Citizen to work on other projects, especially campaigning against the believed dangers of large multinational corporations. He went on to start a variety of non-profit organizations: Capitol Hill News Service Corporate Accountability Research Project Disability Rights Center Equal Justice Foundation Georgia Legal Watch National Citizens' Coalition for Nursing Home Reform National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest PROD (truck safety) Retired Professionals Action Group The Shafeek Nader Trust for the Community Interest Congress Accountability Project Citizen Advocacy Center Pension Rights Center Foundation for Taxpayers and Consumer Rights Center for Auto Safety 1955: Princeton Project 55 1969: Center for the Study of Responsive Law 1970s: Public Interest Research Groups 1970: Connecticut Citizen Action Group 1971: Center for Science in the Public Interest 1971: Aviation Consumer Action Project 1972: Clean Water Action Project 1972: Center for Women's Policy Studies 1980: Multinational Monitor (magazine covering multinational corporations) 1982: Trial Lawyers for Public Justice 1982: Essential Information (encourage citizen activism and do investigative journalism) 1983: Telecommunications Research and Action Center 1993: Appleseed Foundation (local change) 1994: Resource Consumption Alliance (conserve trees) 1995: Center for Insurance Research 1995: Consumer Project on Technology 1997?: Government Purchasing Project (encourage the government to purchase safe and healthy products) 1998: Center for Justice and Democracy 1998: Organization for Competitive Markets 1998: American Antitrust Institute (ensure fair competition) 1999?: Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest 1999?: Commercial Alert (protect family, community, and democracy from corporations) 2000: Congressional Accountability Project (fight corruption in Congress) 2001?: League of Fans (sports industry watchdog) 2001: Citizen Works (promote NGO cooperation, build grassroots support, and start new groups) 2001: Democracy Rising (hold rallies to educate and empower citizens) Now, if that is a dismal record of failure, I'll take back what I said about Dan being a liar, and a disingenuous one at that. But it looks to me, as I peruse the above list, that either Dan doesn't know what he is talking about and is so ignorant that anything he says should be immediately dismissed as mere ranting. Or he is lying. Since he seems otherwise intelligent, I feel confident in my conclusion he is the latter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: number 6 Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM Thanks for that post GG. As previously mentioned Nader has done quite a lot for the American people and should be highly recognized for that. But, Nader is a threat to the Washington machine .... and that machine is working very hard to market anything that will discredit Nader ... unfortunately I think they are doing a pretty good job at that. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: pdq Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM "the Washington machine...is working very hard to market anything that will discredit Nader" Quite true, but there is not just one machine, there are any number you choose recognise. The slime will come from entrenched Democrats. The Republicans can sit back and watch, periodically pointing out where the slime originates. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:37 PM I'd really rather the Republicans would donate to his campaign like they did last time. This time, right out the gate, Nader said no political action money, no bundles from corporations, individual donations only from ANY political party members--Democrat, Repub, Libertarian, Green, any of 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:37 PM ". . . vindictive streak." GiGi, you have about the most vindictive streak of anyone whose posts I've read (more out of morbid curiosity than any hope of anything of an enlightening nature). You manage to lash out spitefully at just about everybody who doesn't agree with you, either plain name-calling or denigrating their knowledge and intelligence. As if you are somehow the fount of all knowledge. Judging from the number of posts you make on quite a large number of threads (many of which, you started yourself), you apparently have nothing else in your life to do. In the meantime, I'm interested in the welfare of the country, so I'm working with a couple of different groups to try to put a bit of spine into the Democrats. I've posted a links to an excellent article by Thom Hartmann a number of times here on Mudcat in the hopes that people will read it and heed it. Here it is again: CLICKY In your usual manner, I'm sure you'll have something pretty vindictive to say about it, GiGi. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 08:51 PM I disagree with the premise he puts forth, Don. It really is that simple. If people choose to read into my words that I think I'm smarter than them because they disagree with my brilliant opinions, I don't have any control over that. But don't try and intimidate me. 'Cause homey don't play dat tune. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:25 PM Nevertheless, GiGi, history, both recent and in times further past, has shown Hartmann's premise to be right. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:37 PM Oops. My bad. Don, we didn't end slavery by voting on it, now did we? Voting Rights Act never would have passed without mass protests. Women's Suffrage wouldn't have ever passed without mass protests. Expecting the government to fix it's own wrongdoings? It'll never happen without serious outside pressure from somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,irishenglish Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:44 PM If the Democrats were smart, they would have Kucinich give a speech for the ultra liberal Democrats (ie, his typical supporters) chiding Nader stirring things up and unifying liberals behind Obama or Clinton. Kucinich wouldn't bash Nader for sure, but a few well chosen words could end it before it gets started. I also think a lot of this conversation might be moot, as this is not 2000, and I think a lot of Nader's supporters ligk GG above, will not be taking a chance this time around. I think his support will be far, far less in than last time, not to mention that he is getting up there agewise, and I don't think this country wants that right now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:47 PM Why do you think Democrats need to end Ralph Nader's candidacy? Are you afraid Clinton or Obama can't get elected on their own merit? Or do you think the Democrats and Republicans should be able to shut out all independent and 3rd party candidates from the process? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:49 PM Besides, if you try and shut everyone else out, they will just come in through the bathroom windows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:49 PM 100! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:50 PM I'm quite pleased with myself now. That makes me two for the night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:01 PM Gigi: It is gratifying to see my nickname has stuck! :D Thanks very much for that recap of Nader's milestones. I am duly impressed and weaned from ignorance thereby. He has done much more than I knew of, and I have to respect what he has accomplished, and even more what he tries to accomplish. You do get a little vicious from time to time, but when you speak straight, you're well worth listeiing to. Play on, homey. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:04 PM [Haughty sniff] Next I suppose you will claim not to have known that he was the first of the presidential candidates to have ever appeared on SNL, too. 1977. George Winston was the musical guest, it was still most of the original crew, and that awful Andy Kaufman also appeared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: GUEST,Guest Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:07 PM As host. I don't think I mentioned that. He hosted SNL in 1977, when the show was still worth a damn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Amos Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:58 PM Gee--you're cute when you get all haughty, didja know that? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: katlaughing Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:09 AM there is no apostrophe in possessive "its" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:28 AM unless it's a contraction for it is |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:19 AM Well, well, well... Seems as if I am now cookied (no apostrophe) and still verty much happy to have Ralph back in the game... He said it purdy well to Tim Russert yesterday when he said that even with him in the game that if the Dems can't win this one then they oughtta just fold up their tent... That's about right... Yeah, the Dems won in 2000 but folded their tent when it came time to fight for Florida... They had better have a plane full of lawyers sittin' on the tarmac at Dulles on election night just as the Bush folks did in 2000 when the Bush camp outspent the Gore folks $5 to $1 in lawyers in Florida... The Dems also better have several planes filled with folks who are ready to land in a contested state and raise Hell... I'm sure that Nader would tell them this himself... BTW, just a sidebar... In 2000 I still was driving my '66 Corvair, you know the car that Ralph said was "unsafe at any speed" and it may have been the only Corvair in the country with a "Nader" bumper sticker on the back... LOL, but true... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: irishenglish Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM So if Nader said that with him in the game and the Democrats can't win then they probably deserve to lose? Let me ask you this-When he sits back at home after the 2008 election, which side will he have less regret for winning-Democrats, or Republicans? Yes I know full well that he sees little difference between the two nowadays, which is why he is running. But which party will come closer to at least discussing the things on his agenda? Which party will attempt to get us out of this debacle in Iraq in a logical approach, which party will attempt to address this supposedly rosy economy that we have, which is not so rosy? Which party will attempt to get the U.S. back in good standing with the world again? I will say this so I will not be accused of ignoring it: Yes, the Democrats need a good kick in the pants, (so do the Republicans for that matter) in an effort to have some party unity. But as an American citizen, will Nader feel a more appropriate direction is happening with Obama/Clinton, or McCain? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM Actually, if you really look at the complexities of getting US outta Iraq, John McCain would have the easiest time in terms of the "pure politics"... Meanwhile, we need Nader to keep the message out front of the voters... He can be a very effective shill for progressive cuases without weighing down the Dems... The Dems will win this with or without Nader if they don't blow it and Nader is not a deal killer for them... If anything, he makes it easier for moderates and swing voters to vote Dem... This ain't 2000 and this ain't Bore... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: irishenglish Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:04 PM I agree that the Dems will win if they don't blow it, and I think the reaction to Nader running this time has, for the most part, been unexcited and underwhelming. In terms of Iraq, I don't think McCain has any kind of real exit strategy in mind. And I still say if the Dems are worried about progressive Democrats, then they need a delicate chiding of Nader, rather than an acceptance of his participation, which is what Obama said the other day-immense respect, but also a mild rebuke for muddying the "MUDCAT" waters! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM No, McWar, doesn't have an exit stategy... But from a purely political view point he is the candidate that would get the least *heat* for pulling out of Iraq... As for the Dems chiding Nader??? Nah, they need to barrel down on McWar and the upconming Swift-boating that the Repubs certainly have planned... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: Don Firth Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM Before we met, my wife, Barbara, had a Corvair. She loved it! Dangerous? Well, due to the engine in the rear, the Corvair was a little butt-heavy, but it's just a matter of knowing how to drive. Also, she said she was often able to tootle around easily on snow when other people were making do-nuts, bumping into things, and sliding into the ditch. As my daddy (who, when he was younger, worked as a chauffeur) used to say, "The most unreliable part of an automobile is the nut that holds the steering wheel." Nader did give many corporations a much deserved wedgie, but the idea that the Corvair was "Unsafe at Any Speed" was spurious. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now From: EBarnacle Date: 25 Feb 08 - 10:19 PM GiGi, You defined yourself at your pride in making two "100's" in one day. For most of us, it's about discussion, not keeping score or making nasty points, aka trolling. |
