BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now

Subject: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

Here he comes...we'll see what Ralphie boy has to say to us today.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:08 AM

Pox on him. I hope he throws his hat in the ring as a Republican. :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:23 AM

Idiot! He'a doing it.The paradigm example of the "Harold Stassen Syndrome".

He, along with the Supreme Court and election officials in Florida, are responsible for the current administration!

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM

Well, that notion is just MSM hyperbole, as Ralph just demonstrated.

Good on him, I say. Somebody needs to keep the issues up front. And we'll see what he can do.

He has already stated (prior to Meet the Press), that he will take any individual donations from people affiliated with ANY party. In some states, he will run on the Green ticket, in other states, other viable 3rd party tickets, and in others, as an independent. In other words, he has stated he will run however he needs to, in order to get on the ballot in all 50 states.

He has also said he would only run if he could raise enough money & legal volunteers to mount the inevitable Democratic party court challenges to keep his name off the ballot in the fall.

The toughest part, though, will be the debates. I just don't know how he can get around the MSM refusals to let him debate in the fall.

But we'll see. The Nader campaign has brilliant people involved in the campaign. They are a pretty creative bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 10:44 AM

Pox on him, he ought to KNOW better by now. Damn man.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:29 AM

Another stroke for monomaniacal egomania!

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM

OK, tell you what folks. How about you explain how continuing to vote the same way you have always voted, will result in the deep systemic changes (a status quo in place now since the Reagan era) our government needs to make, actually happening?

You vote the same, it is guaranteed the results will be the same. A Democrat or a Republican will win by a nose hair, or a Supreme Court intervention, or whatever way it pans out this year. There will be no landslide, because political partisans like you are driven by hatred of the other side, not love of your country.

There is no other possible outcome in this game. It is controlled by a ruling oligarchy that uses the two party system like a gladiator game. You have a red team and a blue team. You have the Democratic brand and Republican brand. They fight to a draw, so you will come back in four years and watch the very same media spectacle all over again with different players from the same teams...

All the while, the ruling oligarchy gets the teams to "work together" in the spirit of "bi-partisanship" to pass MORE laws to benefit the ruling oligarchy at the expense of the country, it's citizenry, it's natural resources, etc etc etc

The ONLY way to force the government to change is through building a huge social change movement that pushes and forces the politicians to change. That is the ONLY way true systemic change has ever come about in the US, or anywhere for that matter. Authentic, systemic social, economic, and political change movements come from outside the electoral system, not from within.

This is the last time Nader will run. This is our country's last, best chance to push forward a truly progressive social change agenda that will force change for the better.

It will never happen if either Obama or Clinton are elected president, because they are both candidates that represent the status quo.

If you are happy with the way things are, then by all means, vote for the Democrat.

But if you truly think that electing yet another puppet place holder to the White House will mean our democracy is lost forever to the ruling oligarchy, it is time to change the way you have been voting.

The responses to this announcement from posters here has been immediate and reactionary, just as I would have expected. But to those of you who really do think deeply about this, and are truly progressive, you have to be saying to yourself, something really does have to change this time, and voting Obama ain't it. Obama is not an authentic leader of a social change movement. His so-called 'grassroots' campaign isn't an authentic grassroots campaign. It is a very typical duopolist campaign, financed by huge corporate donations.

Think about that. Think long and hard. Look at the horizon. Beyond voting in November, where do you see our nation headed with Obama in the White House?

We need to force the neo-Gilded Age status quo out of office in record numbers. Progressive activists must press forward with OUR agenda, so when the Democratic party collapses after this election, we are organized, energized, feet on the ground, and ready to move in and take over in the inevitable political vacuum that will follow.

That simply can't happen by voting for business as usual, and hoping for a different outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Alice
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM

I watched it. He says his reason is to bring more issues to the campaign debate, or other sides of the issues. Ron Paul is thinking the same thing. It doesn't work that way, though. The media mostly ignores the small candidates. There must be a better way for Nader. He could be more constructive by not being a spoiler.
If Ron Paul takes votes from McCain and Nader takes votes from Obama or Clinton...

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: number 6
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:36 AM

The world needs more Naders.

What people are afraid of is Nader getting votes .... those votes mean that people are getting fed up of with the status quo of Washington ... the same status quo (machinery) that has gotten the U.S. involved in the Iraq war, gotten in to bed with corporate interests, lied, distanced themselves from the voting democracy, etc, etc.. The 3 main candidates running for the presidency exhibit nothing but politikal rhetoric ... if voted in it will be basically status quo in Washington.

As Nader says ""Dissent is the mother of ascent,"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM

The idea that Obama is a puppet to me is just laughable. What will his administration bring-I don't know...yet,but I do know he will restore America's credibility and stature in the world again. Look at it this way, even Kucinich bowed out of this election because he saw a tide coming, so WTF can't Nader just learn from the past and give up. Doesn't he realize that he is fighting a tide? What reason does he have for coming into this so late as well? Be the watchdog he always has been, but President, come on? I don't think Obama is status quo. I think Clinton and McCain are status quo. I think Obama is playing the game of status quo to get elected, but I'm betting on a whole new set of rules if he gets elected, and then my friends, it will be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM

Ron Paul, Mike Huckabe and (now) Ralph Nader are the only people talking issues. We need all of them.

Even McCain can't really tell people how liberal he is for fear of alienating the few conservatives left who are planning to vote. And so, most of what he says is gas, just like O'Bamma and The Hillary.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Dan Keding
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:56 AM

I agree that the world needs more Naders but why is it always grandstanding at the worst possible moment that brings out Ralph's decision to run. We don't hear about him for months or years and then he's off to the races "bringing the issues to the forefront."

Why hasn't he run for office in his own state? - think globally, act locally. There seems to be an aspect of ego in this whole affair. The smaller parties and independents have not proved that they can make any significant inroads locally and until they do they only act as a spoiler in presidential campaigns.

I agree that we need more than two parties and that we need to have an awareness of social and economic issues that are not addressed by the Republicans or Democrats but I don't want to see another eight years of Republican war mongering because Ralph likes to see his name in print. Obama or Clinton might not be the answer for most of our problems but either one is a better starting off place than McCain.

Politicians - and that includes Nader - have big egos that are fueled by public adoration and the courting of their favor by the rich and/or powerful. Yes, even those with big egos can do good, but how many times have we ever seen someone back out of a race not because they were losing in the primaries but because they actually thought that another candidate was the better person for the job or the right person for the times? Nader is no exception. After eight years of government from saddle back, that he is partially responsible for, you'd think he'd have the courage, grace and humility to stay out.

Welcome to American politics where even the "good guys" are out to get their own.


Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Cool Beans
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:57 AM

Nader is evil. He gave us George W. Bush: hence, a bunch of arch-Conservatives on the Supreme Court, anti-science thinking in the administration, secrecry, war, idealogical idiocy and so on. Anyone else who thinks there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats is terrifyingly naive. I hope Nader dies a quiet, natural and imminent death. (But how do I really feel?)

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

Yes, the media marginalized Nader the minute he walked off the set of Meet the Press. Their only interest in putting him on was to get "the scoop". Nader knew that, which is why he kept mentioning his web site.

This will likely be the last campaign that can rely on the internet to get the word out by going around MSM. By 2012, the Democrats and Republicans will have closed that gate and padlocked it, so we can't organize online anymore.

The biggest threat to the status quo right now is us doing online organizing for a major name recognition indie/3rd party candidate--like Nader, and independent news reporting, like Democracy Now does.

If every True Blue Believer would read Jeffrey Scahill's book "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army" they would definitely be re-examining their beliefs about voting Clinton or Obama in the fall. Seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:01 PM

Lets see...Gore lost Florida by 500 votes. Nader got 95,000 votes in Florida. Who needed the Supreme Court and Diebold? He has no chance of being elected, and he knows it - his only potential value is as a spoiler. Wonder if the Republican National Committee is supporting him?

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: number 6
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM

"but why is it always grandstanding"

The 3 loudest grandstanders in the U.S. right now are the 3 big candidates ... all 3 who you maybe reminded are currently elected representatives of the people of the U.S. ... remember the hope and enthusiasm when the dems took the majority in the mid-term elections ... well, it's been Christmas Time in Washington as usual. Nothing changed.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

Nader isn't fighting a tide, he is leading a progressive social change movement.

Has been for 40 years.

There's yer trouble, if you think of Nader in conventional political terms. He isn't a career politician, he is a citizen activist. HUGE difference.

Also, Nader isn't 'coming into this so late'. Third party and indie presidential candidates don't even get going until now, because they don't compete in the two party primary system. The don't have the money to run perpetual campaigns, the way the corporate parties do.

If Obama wasn't a status quo candidate, he wouldn't be pulling in 50 million US dollars a month, bro. Follow the money. He is the LEADING FUNDRAISER OF CORPORATE DONATIONS.

You say the military industrial complex ain't behind Obama, I say you are blind.

Ralph's decision to run was predicated by the Democratic party field and the independent, third party field. We now know the Dem nom is either Obama or Clinton, and that no third party/indie candidate has announced a run. He is rushing in to fill the political vacuum left by Kucinich and Edwards dropping out of the race.

Kucinich didn't drop out for the reason stated above. Kucinich dropped out because he knew he wouldn't win AND he is in danger of losing his seat in US House of Representatives because of a renegade run by a Democratic party opponent in his district.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:12 PM

Anyone who hasn't heard from Ralph Nader since the last presidential race has been listening to MSM sources only. Nader has been as active as ever since 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: number 6
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM

Good posts Guests !

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:14 PM

So Dan, would you support a law passed by the US Congress that said only the Democratic and Republican parties are legal parties in the US, and all other parties are hereby illegal? Because there are plenty of countries like that around the world. Are you ready to make the US one of them, just to protect your precious Democratic party?

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:17 PM

No, the Democratic party is at fault for Bush/Cheney, Inc.

If Al Gore had carried his home state of Tennessee in 2000, he would have been president.

It isn't Nader's fault Al Gore couldn't win votes. That is Al Gore & the Democratic party's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: van lingle
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

Great plan you got there GG. Let's whip up a rabid progressive movement and get Ralph a small fraction of the popular vote (if he's capable of that) that might be just enough to bring Gore, excuse me, Obama, up short of the amount of votes he'll need to offset the ruling parties hanky panky at the polls in the general election thereby giving us 4-8 more years of a "War President", a big increase in defense spending, soldiers with spouses and children looking at another 5 or 6 deployments, executive orders written by lobbyists, continuing tax relief for the top percentile and no chance at all for health care reform. Great plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:23 PM

Nader entering the race isn't about getting him into the White House, it is about him getting enough votes to force the politicians to change the way they are doing business.

Nader's reason for entering the ring are far, far different than the reasons a Democratic or Republican gets in the ring.

Nader is a social change citizen activist, not a party politician. Those who keep calling him a spoiler don't understand that democracies need Naders, or they are dictatorships.

Which is what we are actually on the brink of becoming in this election cycle, IMO.

I am so relieved Nader is running. SO relieved. Since Edwards and Kucininch pulled out, I have been morose and depressed, and ready to move to another country. At least now, there is a reason to stay and fight one more time.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:24 PM

There is a certain element of truth to that GG. But one cannot deny the monomaniacal aspects of Nader's continual tilting at the windmill. And while you are justified in your criticism of the Gore strategy, one also cannot deny the pragmatic effect of that loss, as pointed out by Cool Beans and Charley Noble. One also cannot deny the hard numbers that were demonstrably siphoned off from the Gore votes by Nader. In other threads, I have noted a slant on your posts in which you express some very guarded hopes about knocking off "the war machine" and the disastrous economic policies of the Republicans. I am almost reading into it that you hope for an Obama win. I don't mean to speak for you, but that certainly is the hope of many. While I get the philosophical wish, and the admiration for the Naders and Kucinichs, I want the very best chance at effecting real change. Nader exercising his Harold Stassen-like campaign just doesn't do that for me. It doesn't add to the debate, it seems to muddy it.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM

In order for 3rd & 4th parties to be effective in the US, and not just spoilers, we would need to change the way elections are run, AND the way power is shared and allocated in Congress.....anyone want to moderate the debate on how that is to be accomplished?

I am sort of in favor of the idea, but everyone who HAS any power would be unwilling to change the system under which they got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM

GG-

Here's a dumb question. Who or what is the "MSM"? Somehow I don't think you're referring to "methylsulfonylmethane" but I could be wrong.

The last time I voted for Nader was back in 1968, in the aftermath of the Chicago debacle.

A presidential run by Ralph Nader can hardly be described as a "grassroots" campaign. I seriously doubt if more than a few thousand people from around the country will pitch in and help. It's more likely that he'll personally finance his own campaign with a few donations from loyal supporters and some wealth Republicans cynically pitching in who do view him as a potential spoiler. I don't view Nader as a spoiler this time around. I doubt if he'll attract enough attention to merit that title.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM

That is just the same old character assassination Mick, and you know it.

Show me a leader of Nader's stature that hasn't ruffled feathers, rubbed people the wrong way, occassionally taken a dictatorial approach, whatever. It comes with the territory, and you, better than most because you are an organizer, know it.

He isn't tilting at windmills. He is trying to force change to a moribund, bloated, plutocracy teetering on the brink of dictatorship.

You know how this works Mick. If Clinton or Obama wins, they lull the electorate into a sense of complacency with a Democratic Party status quo. I'd rather see McCain win, honestly. Nothing concentrates the focus more than having an easy to define nemesis. The nation needs deep, systemic change. The plutocracy has all the money, all the guns, and is building prisons at an alarming rate.

You tell me how it will go when they shut off our access to the internet, lock out all political parties but the two in their pockets, censor the news through corporate media channels sanctioned by the government, and start throwing people like me and you into dissenter's prison?

This is the road we are on, and we will arrive there by 2012, 2016 at the latest.

And no, I don't think I'm being the least bit alarmist. And I think Obama and Clinton are just as likely to put us in that place as McCain is.

The time for supporting Democratic presidential candidates is over for this year. We have an alternative that can force change, not instill false hope for it as a means of keeping everyone home on the couch in front of the corporate TV, instead of in the streets working for meaningful change in their neighborhoods, cities, states, and gasp! the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:40 PM

The other aspect of Gigi's somewhat smarmy superiority in this thread is the covert nullification of Obama's promise of change.

Her implicit argument is that he is funded by corporations in a way similar to all other and prior candidates, and therefore he will not implement change -- at least not the ones she wants.

I find this position meretricious, and not sup[ported by specifics on issues.

I'd like to see a white paper on fundamental changes program, written by Nader, and Gigi, and ilk, placed in the hands of the Obama strategy group before he gets sworn in in November. That would give them a shot at getting their sense of importances heard and possibly even acted on, by someone (unlike themselves) who is practical enough to make things happen in an insanely politicized environment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Alice
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:43 PM

I liked Nader in the 60's.
He has become a narcissist.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:46 PM

I am too far from it all to make proper sense, but - didn't our own Sh*mbl*s run his campaigns in a similar style to Nader's? Not trying to stir anything other than wanting to understand how Nader hopes to bring about a result that will be closer to his own aspirations, through his involvement?

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 12:53 PM

Nader was an effective crusader--almost 50 years ago. He was responsible for the fact that corporations bear some responsibility for their products. I fail to see that he's done anything useful since then. The Corvair is long out of production. Nader should join it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM

Charley, you are playing games. You know full well what MSM stands for, because you 'asked' me the same question in another thread recently.

Nader didn't run for president in 1968. He allowed his name to be used as a write-in 'none of the above' candidacy in 1992. He was drafted by the Greens in 1996, and he was on the ballot in places where the Greens petitioned to get him on.

2000 was the first time Ralph Nader actively ran as a presidential candidate trying to get on the ballot in all 50 states.

In 2004, the Democratic National Party actively sought court orders to keep him off the ballot in many states. The MSM refused to let him participate in debates, even though he met most of the tests that had put forth when they allowed Ross Perot to participate in debates in 1992's Bush v Clinton race.

The deck is completely stacked against Nader gaining any ground by getting his message out to voters--especially by plutocrat surrogates of the MSM, who will likely also refuse to run his ads (as they did in 2004 to him and to the anti-war movements ads) as well as keep him off the debates, and by the Democratic National Party's court challenges to him on the state ballots to keep voters from even having the chance to vote for him.

But I'm going to work for him anyway, because I believe Nader's candidacy is our last best hope for saving the country from dictatorship.

The laws are all in place now for any president to declare martial law, and start filling up prisons with dissenters. Voting for Obama or Clinton won't stop that from happening. It might not even delay it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: number 6
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:07 PM

dick greenhouse .... just do some surfing on the net ... you'll discover what Nader has done since the 'Corvair'. Take a look at the non-profit organizations he has started. I think Nader represents the finest when it comes to someone looking out and taking leadership in the interests of the common citizen. More so than what any of the 3 big candidates have accomplished. He is someone the U.S. should be proud of. Not someone to ridiculed as the crazy uncle up in the attic. That's the label Washington want you to believe in.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:14 PM

Well, GiGi, I HAVE voted for Nader...in the past. So, how much good did it REALLY DO? None. Nada. Not one iota. He CAN'T win and he knows it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM

GG - "Kucinich didn't drop out for the reason stated above. Kucinich dropped out because he knew he wouldn't win AND he is in danger of losing his seat in US House of Representatives because of a renegade run by a Democratic party opponent in his district."

Dead right. Kucinich is fighting for political survival in his own Cleveland Congressional riding right now, because the coporatocracy is doing everything they can to end his political career (short of assassinating him).

Your post of 24 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM, GG, is very interesting to read. It's a good thumbnail sketch of how the $ySStem works. "It is controlled by a ruling oligarchy that uses the two party system like a gladiator game. You have a red team and a blue team. You have the Democratic brand and Republican brand. They fight to a draw, so you will come back in four years and watch the very same media spectacle all over again with different players from the same teams..."

That's it.

Now, I have always preferred the Democrats when it comes to those 2 teams...and I would usually vote for them rather than the Republicans, if that was the only choice put in front of me, but I'm under no illusions as to who the Democrats work for. They work for the great corporatocracy, same as the Republicans. They have a sort of "kinder, gentler" superficial outer style than the Republicans do, which is why I like them better. They do not so overtly worship militarism and severity. The Republicans' outer style makes my gorge rise. Sadly, though, I do not regard the Democrats as being any real agent for change in the way the $ySStem works. Once in office they play the same old game...and that game leads to war, deception, and betrayal.

Is there any possible way out? I doubt it. The MSM and the $ySStem are too powerful, I think, for any way out to be found.

Someone asked what "MSM" means. It means the MainStream Media (TV primarily, radio and press secondarily). The only real chink in their armour is the Internet...which they presently cannot control.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: number 6
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:20 PM

Of course he can't win Sorcha ... and your vote did count, and everyone who voted for him did make a statement ... problem is, is anyone listening. Has anyone of the 3 candidates taken heed of what Nader stands for?

That's what Nader is trying to make a point of ... democracy has failed in the U.S. ..... the interests of the people are not at hand ... it's the interests of 'corporate America' that have the power and the interest. Protection of the status quo, and Nader is a threat to that.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM

Anyone who thinks that Nader hasn't been successful at bringing about substantial, meaningful changes since the 60s doesn't know squat about Nader, or about the major social change and social justice movements of our time.

They are just whining, because they are afraid of him.

If you want a list of what Nader's positions are, where he stands on the issues, what his accomplishments are, those things aren't hard to verify independently online in a matter of hours. Which is far more effort than most Mudcatters opposing Nader here are willing to put in, I know. Because based upon what people are saying about the conventional candidates, they aren't even willing to get information about those candidates from anywhere except the Mudcat forum and MSM sources.

Sad that so many are so unwilling to think outside the box for the good of the nation, and are only willing to stick with their partisan driven, status quo way of thinking from 2004 and 2000.

After two substantial losses, and no change from the Democrats after re-taking control of Congress, one would think people would wake up and smell the corporate coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:33 PM

Like I said, anyone who claims to have 'voted for Nader' in the past, but it didn't do any good, hasn't a clue as to what Nader's campaigns are about. So IMO, there isn't any reason to listen to anyone making claims like that, because they don't mean anything.

Anyone who votes for Nader knows the chances of his winning are slim. Possible, of course. But slim. A vote for Nader shouldn't be a vote against the other guys.

It should be a vote for him as a candidate who would make a good president, to register a protest vote to the status quo politicians that we can't be bought, telling them we will continue to organize, and eventually throw them out of office like the bums they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM

But I'm going to work for him anyway, because I believe Nader's candidacy is our last best hope for saving the country from dictatorship.


I don't get it, to be quite honest. If he has no chance of getting on the November ballot, and less than that of winning the general election, the return on your effort will be the degree to which you can get his views out as statements, for the education of others who do get elected -- is that right?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:38 PM

Littlehawk-

"MSM" means Main Stream Media. It's true I've never run across the term before I Goggled it this morning. Odd, I thought I'd been paying attention. Must be spending too much time watching CNN.

If Gigi explained that term to me in one of her previous threads, I failed to notice her response. But then she starts so many threads and my tiny brain can only deal with sifting through a few of them.

Now I have to relearn a major portion of U. S. history:

"Anyone who thinks that Nader hasn't been successful at bringing about substantial, meaningful changes since the 60s doesn't know squat about Nader, or about the major social change and social justice movements of our time."

Where will it ever end?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Alice
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

"After two substantial losses, "
Gore lost because Nader pulled away just enough votes for Bush to be declared the winner.
Wake up and smell the green tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM

I would sooner vote for root canal without painkiller before I would cast a vote for Nader, but I am very glad that he has entered the race.

I bought the same crap about Nader losing the race for Gore and Kerry. That is pure bullshit.   Gore lost Florida by 500 votes? That means that there were more people who did not buy his message. The problems has never been too many choices, it is simply politicians who cannot sell their message to enough voters.   I hate to agree with anonymous guests, but this lady is right - a vote for Nader is NOT a vote against the other guys. It is a vote for a message.

Nader is not the brightest bulb in the pack. His message is too diluted and he lacks the attention span to deal with the complexity of issues. One trick pony presidents do not cut it.   I applaud him for throwing his hat in the ring, but I feel that anyone who votes for him are just a few bricks short of the load.   Anyone who can stir things up and get the politicians to address real issues and real corporate felonies is doing a service.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:45 PM

Nader doesn't have to win the presidency.

He is running to win something far more important--hearts and minds.

He needs to win over young people to get in the game FOR LIFE, not just during their idealist youth, like the "back in the 60s" cynics around this place.

he needs to win back those "back in the 60s" cynics, to work once again for the good of our public welare, our nation, our world, our future generations that they are always so busy pontificating about and claiming they care so much for--from their couches.

That's the good fight.

Not corporate politics as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

How much attention do you think the MSM will give to his views on the issues, Ron? Not much, I'd wager. Well, we'll see...

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

Guest Guest, the democrats have a slim majority in the Senate. Hardly enough to call it "Control".
What we need is a person LIKE Nader, that is, in political philosophy, who can get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:51 PM

Damn Republican dirty trick again! McCain must be desperate getting Nader in to split the Democrat vote. Oh, the shame of it all!

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM

From today's Huffington Post:

Stop Blaming Ralph

Posted February 24, 2008 | 12:15 PM (EST)

Allison Kilkenny

The Democrats like to cast blame for why they continually lose elections. Karl Rove's dream of a permanent Republican majority, while eventually thwarted because of Bush fatigue, was only possible because the Democrats failed to form a compelling ideology for a globalized economy.

Definition through negation works in some preliminary stump speeches, but eventually voters want answers. It's not enough to be Not-Republicans. How, exactly, are Democrats different than Republicans? Spouting tired rhetoric about the New Deal and social welfare worked for a country teetering on the brink of Socialism during FDR's reign, but what now? How are the Fat Cats in the Democratic party different than the Fat Cats in the Republican wing?

And Universal health care hardly seems like revolutionary thinking when the very insurance companies who have been exploiting sick Americans are invited to the negotiation table. Well, to be fair, they paid for their seats at the table, since they have donated millions to the presidential candidates.

The fact that it is 2008 and we're still debating if all people should be given health care, fair trials, shelter (even if they accepted outrageous mortgage loans from predatory banks,) and if we should or shouldn't parade around the globe like some kind of colonizing juggernaut should alert readers to the state of the union.

Democrats are in trouble. They're so in trouble that the Democratic party - the liberal voice of reason - would be unrecognizable to the lefties of yesterday. Why are issues of nuclear disarmament, alternative sources of fuel, a department of peace, immediate Iraqi troop withdrawal, and media diversification constantly forced into the margins of debate?

Instead, politicians wade through a swamp of semantics, where they bicker over 30 or 60 or 90 day moratoriums on home foreclosures, negotiating with the banks instead of defending the American citizens. They talk about building permanent military bases in Iraq and a gradual withdrawal of troops, as if our continued presence in that land will bring anything expect death and destruction for more Iraqis and U.S. troops - as if a multilateral peace-keeping mission could be worse than the corruption and ineptitude that has already leveled the country.

Yet, many are quick to crucify Ralph Nader when he speaks for real change. Many Americans blame him for Al Gore's defeat in 2000. Though, curiously, no Republican ever accuses Pat Buchanan of stealing votes from Bush in Florida, though Pat did take many votes from the then Governor. Pat even took some of Bush's votes in Iowa, New Mexico, Oregon, and Wisconsin, but because Bush squeaked ahead in the polls, individuals fail to reflect upon that.

Bush won (historically, not technically,) and so the Republicans don't obsessively analyze Florida's hanging chads like Democrats do. Democrats see themselves as a repressed minority, and so they wander around the political landscape like poor Midwesterns after a tornado tears through their trailer park. They just keep looking around, going, "What HAPPENED?!"

We live in a Democracy, which operates under the theory that ANYONE can run for president. Unfortunately, that usually means anyone who is rich, but if a candidate can raise enough cash, then he or she can join the party. Otherwise, if we don't have competition in politics, if we attach exceptions to the rule of democracy, then we might as well live under a monarchy, plutocracy, or totalitarian system of government.

Thankfully, this is America, and we like diversity in politics rather than an endless cycle of Anglo-Saxon descendants of wealthy plantation owners. Anyone can run for president, even the most unpredictable beast of the animal kingdom -- an Environmentalist.

It's easy to blame Ralph because, well, he possesses the stubbornness of the last sane man in a world of screaming lunatics. He has spent his life working to protect the repressed and exploited, even though they never thank him. In fact, they frequently mock him like dumb bullies do to the smart kid in the class, who always raises his hand when he knows the answer instead of remaining mute so people will like him.

It's harder to blame Al Gore for Al Gore's defeat. It's difficult to examine the party as a whole and realize the Democrat's have yet to offer the American people a compelling argument for the next decade, and maybe that's why Al couldn't sway more independents to his side and lower the hammer in Florida.

The election wouldn't have come down to a few hundred votes if Al had blown through the rest of the states with a compelling mission statement, if he had wowed voters with exciting ideologies to carry us into a world with a globalized marketplace. Or perhaps a shiny new business model for how the United States can compete with a country supporting itself on slave labor, like China. Better yet, what of a humanitarian coalition of the willing, where all countries are asked to pay fair wages, not just out of altruistic duty for our fellow human beings, but so that Americans can play on a level market field so that their jobs aren't shipped overseas?

Al didn't deal with specifics. He simply bet that voters could see that he was smarter and more experienced than Bush. Well, we know how that worked out.

None of this is Ralph's fault. He's always had specific plans, and his vision never falters. People hate Ralph because, much like that asshole teacher in eighth grade who wouldn't let you skate by, he challenges us. He pushes the country left when the pendulum forever presses right. In a world of free trade and winner-take-all attitudes, Ralph fights for the environment, workers, and victims everywhere.

And yes, he will get votes, but he steals nothing from politicians who don't willingly surrender their campaigns to mediocrity, or voters who cast ballots true to their consciences. A truly compelling Democratic nominee will win blue votes, and some reds and independents. However, if the Democratic nominee offers Americans more of the same centrist-right rhetoric brought to us during the Clinton years, if they cater to Big Business and Wall Street, then we may see a repeat of the 2000 election.

And it won't be Ralph's fault. It will be our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 01:54 PM

We need Nader to run as a separate candidate AND Huckabee AND Ron Paul to ALL do likewise...whilst McCain and HillaryorObama run as the main Machine candidates! ;-) Now, that would make for an amusing and interesting election.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:10 PM

What we need is not a business as usual campaign, and I for one am praying Nader can pull this one off.

We are in Last Chance Texaco territory, people.

Subject: RE: BS: Nader is coming on Meet the Press now
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:13 PM

Nader is egotistical, someone said?

Well, here is what Friedrich Nietzsche has to say:

                      "Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul."