Eliza Carthy in the Guardian

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:13 AM

QUOTE "And I happen to think that Billy Bragg is truly a folk performer in the best sense of the term. He sings great songs about CONTEMPORARY issues that affect real people. If there had ever been a golden age that's what folk singers would have been doing."

Says who? UNQUOTE

Oh, for goodness sake, there wasn't a golden age so just allow me my reverie. As for relevance, there's room for a bit o' that and there's room for a bit of irrelevance. As long as we shut up about Willie Taylor every now and again. It is perception you know. He even puts me off, and I'm a folkie. For want of a much, much better word.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

Nice to see those Ghastly Geffs staying out of this thread, what?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:17 AM

Who?

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM

Bit of a non-row this thread really, not sure that people have fully listened to what Steve Shaw is trying to say, or that Steve Shaw fully listened to what Eliza Carthy had to say.
   Anyway,I would like to raise a couple of related points. Ruth Archer makes a great deal of the posh people who make up the classical world, and the common people who make up the folk world. In fact, that split seems to be the whole thrust of her argument. I think that is largely wishful thinking, making up facts to fit a theory. Now, I know people in Bellowhead, and I know classical musicians, not to mention lots of other genres. I do not honestly think there is that much difference between the average cultural and social backgrounds of those in Bellowhead, and those in the Halle orchestra or whatever(or at least in the backgrounds of the classical players of comparable age to Bellowhead). Folk music obviously originally came from, on average, a lower social class than did classical. But the current practitioners of folk-related music(or at least those selected to be at the proms)are converging, as regards class, with the classical world.
    Obviously I am speaking generally, there are some working class classical people, as there are working class young folkies.But times have changed.
    My other, and very similar point, is that it is great there is a folk day at the proms, but it is only a start. There has always been some folk related stuff available in the "respectable" music world. Composers and performers have often chosen to perform, and experiment with, folk related material: they do this in music, as they do in the visual arts world, or in literature. The folk revival of the 50's and 60's did this and has developed into the "folk scene" of today. But the real breakthough will occur when "actual" folk music is shown and made available in these settings, on an equal footing with the processed and reworked and developed versions. Then we shall really see some eyes being opened!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: the button
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:30 AM

Good points from Greg, I reckon.

Maybe folk & classical share a common problem, in that there's a perception from a lot of people that they're "not for the likes of me." As much as I love (some) classical music, this was very much the feeling I had the first time I went to the Royal Festival Hall, even though (at £6 for the cheapest seats) it was one of the cheapest nights out in London.

The "not for the likes of me" factors might be different in folk (FWIW, I think it's largely a question of image), but they're there all the same.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:30 AM

"The idea that Folk Music has to be 'relevant' is a politically correct, Twentieth Century fabrication."

Ummmm, wasn't it 'relevent' at some point back 'in the day'? Where did all the songs come from if it wasn't? What about the ballads of people being pressed into the Navy for example? Did that not happen?

As I saw it, the 'folk' songs that we sing now came from the real experiences of the people who 'wrote' them, which is just what Billy has been doing.

But more than that, I don't see that just becuase a song was written about the Napoleonic wars it isn't relevant today; we still have wars; lovers still head off into the blue (albeit with better telecommunications); people still have one-night stands (although not in hay-ricks with Grenadiers). Although, I suppose, at least we don't get pilloried for haveing sex out of wedlock these days; but then I also find it hard to notice a lovely May morning, living in the smoke as I do, so there's good and bad in the modern world.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:36 AM

Well, Greg, I read the article and took umbrage at the final paragraph, which I thought was ill-considered. It's a simple as that. Yep, hands in the air, I started it. I like the fact that luminaries from the world of folk music get articles in newspapers and I like the fact that the Proms is reaching out a bit. The general tone of the article was just fine - until that dig at the end, which was predicated on a very limited knowledge of the Proms, as Eliza later admits. Maybe I should have said that to balance my first post but there was plenty of balance coming from elsewhere at the time. Right? But we're also reading stuff on this thread that seems to pit classical against folk, and that is not right. Tell me where I wasn't listening.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:41 AM

Steve Shaw,

"But we're also reading stuff on this thread that seems to pit classical against folk, and that is not right."

I guess in terms of accessing funding, that is entirely right. With a limited pot it is competitive.

Strange that on a mostly "folk" forum that the majority of posters come down on the side of folk! Not.

Paul

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:45 AM

Back in about 1970 to my delight one Prom concert was presented by "Soft Machine" with "Badger" as a support act, and there was all sorts of comments made then about how standards were falling etc.

The experiment was not repeated as I recall.

Anyone think that this will become a regular part of the Proms?
If it's an attempt to get more people into classical music by putting on one event from another style of music I think it is doomed, back in the 70s I only listened to the "Soft Machine Prom".

Or with the present declining status of classical music will other inclusions be made. After all, classical music could be a passing fad; Unlike folk, it only seems to cover a period of about 200-300 years:)

Robin Madge

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:45 AM

Strange indeed, not, but you can't beat a bit of balanced thinking. We're not writing letters to Take That's fanzine, you know.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:47 AM

"Unlike folk, it only seems to cover a period of about 200-300 years:)"

Haha, good joke! I'll have a belly-laugh just after my Hildegarde von Bingen CD has finished...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:54 AM

...the 'folk' songs that we sing now came from the real experiences of the people who 'wrote' them, which is just what Billy has been doing.

There is nothing in Traditional Folksong to compare with prescriptive right-on proslytisation as purveyed by Billy Bragg, VOTP. We find narratives, experiences, regrets & reminiscences - but messages? Maybe not, at least none so overtly declaimed, and certainly none so political, Lord preserve us, unless in their interpretation, but never in their intention.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:58 AM

"Ruth Archer makes a great deal of the posh people who make up the classical world, and the common people who make up the folk world. In fact, that split seems to be the whole thrust of her argument."

No, Greg, I was pointing out the historical situation which has led us to where we are now. If you don't believe me, look at Keynes or Reith and their respective views on the founding of the Arts Council and the BBC. My version may have been pretty potted and simplified, but as I used to teach this stuff I feel pretty confident that it's accurate.

The middle classes are largely the patrons of the arts in general (including folk), so one could argue (and my students used to have to write an essay on this very topic) that the National Lottery is a tax on the poor to subsidise the entertainment of the middle classes. Again, I'm not going all class war - I absolutely believe in public subsidy of the arts. But that's another debate.

I'm also not really trying to pit classical against folk - at least not as artforms. I haven't said that I think folk is better than classical music - all I've said is that it deserves equal visibility and status. Not very contentous, really, unless you're a classical bod who sees such statements as a threat to your annual funding bean feast.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:02 AM

Not all traditional songs, Sedayne, but some, surely. Some of the Jone O'Grinfilt variants are taking digs at the government of the day, individual politicians and even Royalty... Surely, that's political.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:04 AM

"There is nothing in Traditional Folksong to compare with prescriptive right-on proslytisation as purveyed by Billy Bragg, VOTP. We find narratives, experiences, regrets & reminiscences - but messages? Maybe not, at least none so overtly declaimed, and certainly none so political, Lord preserve us, unless in their interpretation, but never in their intention. "



No wonder butter's a shilling a pound,
See those rich farmers' daughters how they ride up and down
If you ask them the reason they'll say, "Bonny lass
There's been a French war, and the cows have no grass."

Chorus:
Singing, honesty's all out of fashion
These are the rigs of the time,
Time, my boys
These are the rigs of the time.
Now here's to our landlord, I must bring him in,
Charges tuppence a pint and yet thinks it no sin.
When he do bring it in, the measure is short
And the top of the pint is all covered in froth.

And here's to the butcher, I must bring him in,
Charges four pence a pound and yet thinks it no sin.
Slaps his thumb on the scales and makes it go down
He declares it's full weight yet it lacks half a pound.

And here's to the baker, I must bring him in,
Charges a ha'penny a loaf and yet thinks it no sin.
When he do bring it in, it's no bigger than your fist
And the top of the loaf has popped off with the yeast.

Now here's to the tailor who skims with our clothes,
And here's to the cobbler who pinches our toes,
Our belly's all empty, our bodies are bare,
No wonder we've reason to curse and to swear.

Now the very best thing that I could find
Is to toss them all up in a high gale of wind.
When the wind it do blow, the balloon it would burst,
And the biggest old rascal come tumbling down first.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:06 AM

I thought that Hildegarde von Bingen was "early music" rather than "classical" according to current clsifications, and I wouldn't think of that as the same sort of music. I would think that most people don't think of anything earlier than perhaps Purcell as "classical".

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: mattkeen
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:32 AM

A lot of traditional songs surely were, to some extent, in code. They simply couldn't be as politically overt as Billy Bragg

For instance - don't you think that a lot of the songs admiring Napoleon were phrased as they were because it would have been dangerous to say "Lets have a revolution like them French geezers - that'll show the bastards".

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:44 AM

Nice one, Ruth! But Rigs of the Time doesn't strike me as being political in the slightest, just a realistic overview of the sort of shit that invariably goes down in an open market economy. We could put an anti-capitalist gloss on it, but it's the quality of basic human decency that's being lamented here, rather than free-trade per-se, and one still gets the impression it's just one person's experience.

I thought of a few other exceptions to what I said earlier on too, but I stumbled on trying to fix any secure provenance on any of them, saving the odd Corn Law or Chartist anthem which are politically overt but not necessarily folk songs, even though they might be (convincingly) sang as such.

Decidedly off thread, as ever, but if any one's got any more...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:49 AM

I would have thought Purcell was decidedly Baroque; it's not until the middle of the 18th century that classical music kicks in, which, oddly enough, is where I generally stop listening...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

Political songs?

What about The Cropper Lads

That would appear to be inviting luddite behaviour amongst the masses

Just a thought

Sarah

Who actually quite likes some classical stuff and sings in a choral society before going on to an Irish session in a pub.
Diversity is the spice of life

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

Well, having pulled down Roy Palmer's excellent collection "A Touch on the Times" from my bookshelf, there are dozens.

Striking Times (1850s), with the chorus "And it's high time that working men should have it their own way, And for a fair day's labour receive a fair day's pay," could be right out of the Billy Bragg songbook.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

"There is nothing in Traditional Folksong to compare with prescriptive right-on proslytisation as purveyed by Billy Bragg, VOTP. We find narratives, experiences, regrets & reminiscences - but messages? Maybe not, at least none so overtly declaimed, and certainly none so political, Lord preserve us, unless in their interpretation, but never in their intention."

I think you may be missing something about contemporary folk song. It ain't just Billy Bragg who breaks your rule. Why, Christy Moore, Leon Rosselson, Dick Gaughan and Roy Bailey do it all the time, to name but a few. I mean, is it folk? ;-)

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:26 AM

"I thought that Hildegarde von Bingen was 'early music' rather than 'classical' according to current clsifications, and I wouldn't think of that as the same sort of music. I would think that most people don't think of anything earlier than perhaps Purcell as 'classical'."


Aargh!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM

Hey Eliza.
Can we use the quote?
"Some patronising, low brow Housewives' Choice that everyone knows in their heart of hearts is a bit desparate"
Couldn't have put it better myself!
Baroque and Roll
Onwards with a grin.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:26 PM

So what Hildegard CD were you listening to, Steve? My favourite remains Sequentia's original 1982 recording of Ordo Virtutem, which I have in the vinyl boxset.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM

Canticles of Ecstasy, recorded by Sequentia in 1993. The next oldest music to that I love is the Cantigas from 13th century Spain. I have a wonderful CD by Ensemble Alcatraz with Kitka (women's vocal ensemble) which contains Cantigas de Santa Maria and the seven wonderful Cantigas de Amigo of Martin Codax. It's a 2000 recording on the Dorian label. Classical meets folk, after a fashion. ;-) It's fabulous stuff.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM

Re Bellowhead - Paul Sartin was a classical musician and choral scholar until he heard Ian Giles in a pub in Oxford..... and Eliza's dad was a chorister too!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM

I just pictured Sir Martin in a frock with frilly collar....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: mattkeen
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

Chris Wood was a chorister too, and Tim van Eyken studied and sang at Wells Cathedral as a boy.


John Dipper plays like he could play anything at all with grace and brilliance.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:08 PM

Kitty - unless I'm mistaken, doesn't Paul Sartin still perform in the realms of classical music as well ?? I had the feeling that he was part of a male singing quartet, not to mention being involved with music for series like the Vicar of Dibley

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

for completists:

Paul Sartin

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM

I think it's great that there are classically trained singers and musicians who can perform and improvise folk song and music and sound really good without the dots....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:27 PM

It would be very interesting to her from such singers and musicians (who can play classical etc from dots and folk without them) about the way they approach each type of playing/singing, and the extent to which each style informs the other.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:47 PM

This thread is hilarious.

I thought we'd agreed that 'f**k' isn't definable?

Clearly not....

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:55 PM

who's we, oh great troll, Guest Ed? You in your mind may have decided, but the debate, clearly is, a never ending one and most likely will always be so.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

oh and the word FOLK is not a rude one, so you can print it in full *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:00 PM

Not sure wjy you choose to call me a troll whilst I make exactly the same point as you. But there we go...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:29 AM

If someone employed me to do it, Steve, I daresay I could. Irish music didn't get to where it is without national government intervention.

If the government recognised traditional culture as part of the heritage industry, and promoted it accordingly (perhaps starting with the brilliant folk festivals we have), it would raise the profile of the music and dance both within Britain and beyond.

If money was spent on teaching children GOOD QUALITY traditional music and dance in schools, it would begin to form part of a national identity.

Two quick ideas, as I'm just off out. But honestly, it's not rocket science.
RUTH,are you sure?
when did Comhaltas first receive government money.the first few fleadhs,were they supported with government money.the 1950s in Ireland,was a time of mass emigration and poverty,my guess is that the first nine fleadhs 1951 to 196o,didnt receive government funding.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:25 PM

Well,as a singers I've been doing both since being knee high to a grasshopper. I've been a sightreading choral singer since schooldays, and have been singing folksong in tandem (although not, I hasten to add, at the same time !) I wouldn't dream of using most of my choral techniques for folk singing though ... overly dotted i's and crossed t's sound daft, and extremely uncomfortable, for traditional unaccompanied English songs. Similarly I wouldn't dream of using some of the vocal mannerisms that I sometimes I adopt when singing folksong for the choral singing. I'd be strung up for that ! When singing with the dots, it's mostly a matter of following the instructions you're given - either by the score, or by the conductor, and singing (in my case) to someone else's direction.

I've found that choral or classically trained singers of my acquaintance have deep difficulty in shaking off their training in terms of use of consonants and vowels - these can sound so over the top in traditional song. They are also exceedingly nervous of coming off the page - ask them to improvise something, and they'll get intensely jittery. Ask them to memorise something, and they'll panic (I've seen that happen on a music summer school that I've been attending for a number of years, where the (very well known) conductor insists on two songs being learned by heart for performance at the end of the week.) When told that you can sing over 80 songs from memory they invariably ask how on earth you can manage to do that ! I've often wondered what they would have made of Henry Burstow with his 400 songs, or James Parsons and his phenomenal number (not to mention others).

I know that I switch from one mode to the other without thinking about it too much - and that's probably because I've been singing both types of music (and loving both) since I was small. I suspect it's more difficult to make the transition if you've become ingrained in one type of music for a long time before tackling the other.

As to one style informing the other - of course there's a crossover. For me that would have to be the tuition I've received in vocal techniques, breathing techniques, posture etc while singing with choirs - all very valuable stuff - and the principle guidance on the need for communication with the people that you're singing to. Those principles apply whatever type of music you're involved with, as does the need to transmit the story or the message of whatever you are singing - whether it be Mozart Requiem, or "The Unquiet Grave". As my long term choral conductor always says, you should be aiming to get it over to your stone deaf granny in the back row !! And in both forms the singer is trying to put over to the audience their own enjoyment of and feeling for the music .

Having the ability to read the dots does, of course, mean its possible to shortcut some of the learning process. However, whereas with classical music, on the whole, one stays with what is written on the page, the music of a song in a book is just the leaping off point for a folksong. Once the basic tune has been learned, then its a matter of learning words, and moulding the tune to fit the words and the feel of the content.

Coo - that all sounds a bit pompous dunnit ??

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:26 PM

Whoops - that was a response to George... took so long to type that three or four snuck in under the wire in between .. [grins]

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:41 PM

Surreysinger - as you know, I fell (ascended?) into folk music from choral singing. I was practising a Les Sullivan song last weekend and realised that I found a guilty pleasure in singing through the consonants because it sounded right for the song....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:04 PM

LOL ... yup, Kitty, I was actually thinking back to that conversation of ours at the National more years ago than I care to remember (after listening to Martin C talking about his years as a young choral singer, IIRC) as I wrote some of that. I think that that was the first time we met wasn't it ?? I definitely think that it should never be said that you "fell" into folk music though ... how could it be considered to be a descent ??

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 05:09 PM

Because I fell among friends....? And yes, Irene, I was thinking of that "Meet Martin Carthy" session at the National, too!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:29 PM

Quoth Surreysinger: "I wouldn't dream of using most of my choral techniques for folk singing though ... overly dotted i's and crossed t's sound daft, and extremely uncomfortable, for traditional unaccompanied English songs. Similarly I wouldn't dream of using some of the vocal mannerisms that I sometimes I adopt when singing folksong for the choral singing. I'd be strung up for that ! When singing with the dots, it's mostly a matter of following the instructions you're given - either by the score, or by the conductor, and singing (in my case) to someone else's direction.

I've found that choral or classically trained singers of my acquaintance have deep difficulty in shaking off their training in terms of use of consonants and vowels - these can sound so over the top in traditional song."

Phew. Here's half or more of the problem. Folk-singing with its unwritten rules! Can't do this cos I'd be strung up for that, deep difficulty shaking off the training...

There...are...no...rules! Of all the genres of music, surely folk-singing in all its diversity can shrug all this nonsense off. I told you two-thirds of a thread ago that inward-lookingness was the problem...

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM

'I told you two-thirds of a thread ago that inward-lookingness was the problem...'

This is, of course, your personal opinion, and not the gospel truth. and you know what? I 've never had a problem with a few rules to guide me. You, however seem to be once more, or still, slagging the music you profess to love.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 07:26 PM

Oh, Charlotte, 'tis not the music I'm slagging. We are discussing attitudes to it here, not the thing itself.   I wouldn't bother arguing about it if I didn't love it. I hate jazz and want it to go away and for that reason you'll never catch me bothering to slag it off. Can't be arsed, as it were. And OK, I challenge you. List for me the rules of folk-singing that guide you (and, presumably, should guide the rest of us - unless, of course, the rules are personal to you, in which case the rest of us can make up our own minds about rules...). I await with trepidation. And as for gospel truth - as an atheist I rejoice in that wonderful phrase as the ultimate oxymoron that it truly is.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 02:46 AM

Hmmm. See what you're saying Steve, but can you imagine the Week Before Easter in the style of a opera diva? That would be just plain old silly.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:02 AM

"I thought we'd agreed that 'f**k' isn't definable?"

No, if you'd read any of the interminable threads that have gone before there are (at least) two irreconcilable schools of thought:

(i) Those people who know that 'Folk' was defined perfectly adequately back in 1954.

(ii) Those who, for some unaccountable reason, are desperate to have their favourite types of music defined as 'Folk'.

Now, before you come back at me, and bore the pants off everyone else, please go back and read all of those interminable threads - and when you've done that - GO AWAY!!

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:00 AM

The fact that folkies can sit around "contributing" to long, interminable threads which agonise over the meaning of "folk" is a big symptom of the problem.   Next time I've been a naughty boy I must remind myself to read those threads for punishment. Beats the confessional box, the hair shirt and self-flagellation any day.

Subject: RE: Eliza Carthy in the Guardian
From: Marje
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 05:11 AM

So Steve, it's Ok for you to pass on and share your thoughts about folk music in threads like this,but when others do it, it's inward-looking and a waste of time?

Marje