BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 08 - 11:27 AM

Sectarianism isn't just a vice enjoyed by the great unwashed. Many highly educated people have powers of cerebration that seem to cut off when they see people of another religion.

Not just in the Christian church either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Surprising it may be, ard mhacha, but true all the same. I did not know that football sectarianism was still an issue. At one time the teams around these parts were Catholic (United) and Protestant (City) as well, but that died a death many years ago. How come this attitude still exists in a town that speaks (nearly) the same language, shares the same island and is only 220 miles away? I cannot belive that last Wednesdays debacle was a result of sectarian hatred but I am, as always, willing to learn!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Berchie
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:28 PM

Just as we thought Britain's notorious football hooligans had faded into the background they appeared this week in Manchester, it appears the next generation is once again earning the country a dubious reputation in Europe.Some example for those heading to Russia this week.

For years, Britain struggled with its reputation as the hooligan capital of Europe, home to the continent's most violent football fans. Images of aggressive skin-heads unleashed across Europe's cities during the nineties were hard to erase. Britain had somewhat restored its gentlemanly reputation only to recently find itself at the top of an equally undesirable league table.

Recent studies show that while Britain ranks well in standard of living among its European neighbours, it also excels in teenage anti-social behaviour and drug abuse.

The latest pan-European figures, published last week, show that Britain tops the list for cocaine and cannabis use, with over eight percent of the population admitting to cocaine use, and 34 percent admitting to cannabis use.

The study follows research published last month that found Britain has the worst-behaved teenagers in Europe. The research was carried out by the Institute for Public Policy Research. It found the United Kingdom was at or near the top of every indicator of questionable behaviour, drugs, drink, violence,child abuse,child abduction and sexual promiscuity.

The public think-tank compared the results with research into family life and behaviour across Europe, concluding that the U.K.'s poor record could be explained by a collapse in family and community life. In general, according to the study, teenagers in other European countries sit down much more frequently to family meals,attend church with their parents, go on holiday with their parents and spend considerably more time in general with their family.

In Britain, they spend more time out with their mates wrecking our streets and property and throwing up and pissing in our gardens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 08 - 02:36 PM

'spend considerably more time in general with their family. '

yeh particularly in the cellars....

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Be very careful Berchie in this Site a year ago I was bombarded with English `cats telling me I was talking rubbish about teenage mobs taking over the towns at week-ends, it didn`t matter that I included Irish towns in the same light,society is going downhill at an amazing rate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:24 PM

and don't forget Scottish yobs taking over English towns!

I think you are right about society going downhill, ard mhacha, but I still believe, well maybe hope is more correct, that the majority of teenagers are OK. Remember that it was once the end of society as we know it when cinema seats were torn out to the tune of Bill Haleys 'Rock around the Clock'. It wasn't. I think (again maybe hope?) we will weather this storm as well.

While I have no doubt of the validity of the study, Berchie, I am a little suspicious of some of the findings. Can you tell us who did this study and give us a URL to link to? I am particularly concerened about the phrase attend church with their parents. Do they attend the same churches that have caused the years of hatred in football clubs described by ard mhacha? Maybe hooliganism would be stopped altogether if all teeneagers attended church more often. Just like those nice young men promised entry into heaven if they just...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:24 PM

well maybe Ard, but look at it another way.

More of us are having a better standard of living. More opportuniies for education, more people getting to travel and communicate with the outside world, houses are more comfortable and cars go longer without breaking down.

There have been some advances in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 08 - 06:26 PM

BTW - I didn't spot many teenagers in last Wednesdays fiasco. Maybe they were the parents of the teenagers in the study?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 08 - 07:51 PM

One thing - there won't be too many fans from the UK livening up events in Euro 2008 next month.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Ziggy
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:07 PM

Hey Dave don't be nasty about people going to church. Church attendance is a big thing for families in Continental Europe. Not all church goers are fanatics either, it en't always about C4 & Virgins.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:21 PM

C4?

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Ziggy
Date: 17 May 08 - 08:29 PM

Sorry, C4 is an explosive. It kinda consolidates into a rubbery plasticised mass which may be kneaded and pressed into any shape. It's adhesive and can be stretched into long strands without any breakage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:44 AM

Sorry Ziggy and my apologies to all those good church-goers out there who do not indulge in nefarious activities. It was not my intention to offend you. WLD had already made the point that family life was not the panacea for all evils and referenced the recent events in Austria. I did the same with church-going. I was doubting the as yet unsubstantiated claimes made by Berchies survey. I am not doubting Berchie either - just asking for links to a survey that claims -

"The public think-tank compared the results with research into family life and behaviour across Europe, concluding that the U.K.'s poor record could be explained by a collapse in family and community life. In general, according to the study, teenagers in other European countries sit down much more frequently to family meals,attend church with their parents, go on holiday with their parents and spend considerably more time in general with their family. "

Unfortunately there are well documented flaws with both family life and religion and I do not beleive a return to the days when the stern father and mother church ruled everyones life will cure the worlds ills. It is education and respect for other people that count. A survey that discounts these items, or someone who purposely ignores them in favour of family values and religion gives me cause for suspision.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:21 AM

The following awards were given after the dams raid in 1944:
VC - Victoria Cross
DSO - Distinuished Service Order
CGM - Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
DFC - Distinguished Flying Cross
BAR DFC - Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross
DFM - Distinguished Flying Medal
BAR DFM - Bar to Distinguished Flying Medal
CBE - Commander to the British Empire
KCB - Knight Commander of Bath

Many brave young men who knew that chances of return from this and other raids was small.

Now - these footbaw hooligan scum, what should they be awarded? Order of the Wanker perhaps??

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:01 PM

The distinction between "brave young men" and "mindless hooligans" is likely to be largely a matter of the situation they find themselves in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:02 PM

Wise words, McG.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:58 PM

Maybe another war is the answer then :-S

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:18 PM

BTW - If anyone has any doubt as to my proximity to these violent days please see the 'second shooting' headline. The picture is at the top of King Street. Walk down King Street for 100 yards. Turn left, Walk another hundred and knock on my door!

Must say, my two nearest pubs (by about 50 yards) are the Dog and the Welly, on the opposite corner of King Street - Don't like either. The Waggon and the Red Lion are both far better - and safer!

Ard Mhacha - I am getting to know how it feels to live with that sort of violince. It's not good is it:-(

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:51 AM

Well Dave if you care to go back through the old Threads on this subject you will find that ALL of the English `catters told me I was wrong and that their streets were safe.
The streets of England Ireland Scotland and Wales are taken over at weekends by young drunken scum, that is a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:45 AM

Ard Mhacha, I think that the sensationalist terms that 'streets are taken over by drunken scum' can be misinterpreted as the 'fact' that everywhere in the UK is taken over. I certainly agree that there are places I would not venture anywhere near after 6pm on a Friday or Saturday, some even earlier, but there are an equal, if not greater, number of places that I would feel safe in.

It is a question of the degree and ratio of safe and unsafe places. I do not beleive it is true for one minute that everywhere in the UK (Or world if it comes to that!) is safe to wander around in but nor do I believe that around every street corner there is a rampaging crowd waiting to tear you limb from limb. I am not prepeared to say what the proportion is because I do not know! All I can say is that in my experience there are sections of our city centres that I would steer clear of but there are alo a great number of places I would be happy taking anyone to at any time of day or night.

Sorry if I ever gave the impression that I was disagreeing with the principle that things are bad. I think they are and I believe things are getting worse. My main contention, in the earlier thread you mention, is that things are not as bad as your above stated 'fact'.

To say "The streets of England Ireland Scotland and Wales are taken over at weekends by young drunken scum" to my mind implies that EVERY street in etc. is taken over. The addition of "Some of" at the begining of the statement would indeed turn your statement into an indisputable fact.

You may see from other posts that I intensely dislike sensationalist news and the tactics of the gutter press. All I ask is that when facts are quoted then the actual facts should be established. How many streets? How many nights? Where is unsafe? Where is? If you are indeed saying that 100% of the streets in the UK are unsafe then I will be both both surprised and prepared to continue contesting the point elsewhere. If, on the other hand, you mean that there are some very bad areas of the UK, I am more than happy to agree. Can we compromise and say that an increasing proportion of our streets are becoming unsafe?

Cheers

Dave

PS - You have made me think what the arbitrary figure is before I leave:-) I think if it gets above 50% my bags will be packed!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:12 AM

Ard, the inference that every street in every town in England, Scotland and Wales is taken over at weekends by drunken scum is as ridiculous as the assertion on here that every English football fan is a vile, drunken lout hell-bent on violence.

It's simply not true. Typical Sun-Speak.

What is true is that *some* streets in *some* towns are taken over, just as *some* football fans are vile, drunken louts hell-bent on violence.

And yes, in both cases, it's a small minority, and they're the ones the media like to tell us about. There's no circulation mileage in reporting that the streets of (insert your choice of town here) were quiet and peaceful at 11 pm on Saturday, or that 49,950 of the 50,000 attendees at a football match dispersed quietly to partake of tea and cakes and watch TV in their homes after the match.

You're an intelligent and articulate guy Ard, why demean yourself by becoming The Sun Personified? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:09 AM

I'm an ardent Ard fan also. his website is quite brilliant with some wonderful music on it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:09 AM

Don't overplay it though, Backwoodsman. Rose tinted specs are as bad as Sun headlines and, understandably, it is what Ard Mhacha felt he was faced with earlier. There are undoubtably problems and the problems are still caused by the minority. However that minority is still very large. There are 60 million people in this county. If just 1% of them are hooligans, football or otherwise, then that is still 600,000 thugs wandering about. And I think the figure is considerably higher just based on personal experience. Out of the potential 100 people I know there are considerably more than one whoi are capable of becomig thugs - If not so already. Not friends, I am glad to say, but certainly people of my aquaintance.

There is also the intangible area of intimidation. A crowd of young men wandering down the pavement shouting loudly may not be breaking the law but they will certainly make my wife or my mother or umpteen other people cross over the road. There are degrees of unaccepable behaviour that do not make it to the papers. In fact - the press seem to think of them as acceptable like I said earlier.

Anyway, like I said before I am not going to argue when all it boils down to is degrees of what is wrong. We are agreed that there is something wrong and that something is somewhere between the Sun headline and the rosy tint!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:10 AM

Hey - cross posted ther WLD - give us a URL.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:30 AM

WLD,I am modest enough to admit that my You Tube Site is brilliant,and the reason, I am not singing or playing on it, and it is safer than a walk through the town on a week-end.

Dave, regarding Birchie`s sources, the figures were given on the BBC News within the past two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:58 AM

Wee-e-e-ll, I know where you're coming from Dave, but I really don't have the kind of specs you seem to think I have. I'm very aware of the growth of The Culture of Loutishness, but I don't like the grandiose, broad-brush, sweeping generalisations that we've seen on this thread. I agree that the minority seems to be growing, but there's still a pretty large majority of decent people around, some of whom (me included) like to go to a football match, and who know how to conduct themselves in public in a civilised manner.

All football-thugs are people - true enough. But that doesn't make all football-people thugs, not by a long shot.

And I'd guess that you and I know roughly an equivalent number of people, maybe 100, and a fair number are followers of one football team or another. But I don't know anyone who's a football thug.

I'm not attempting to play the Manchester happenings down at all, it was a dreadful day and I agree something needs to be done, but it's an absolute fact that being a football fan doesn't automatically make someone a thug. Pretty much the same as enjoying folk music doesn't automatically make someone a boring, aran-sweater-wearing, real-ale-swilling, finger-in-ear-sticking old fart! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:05 AM

Thanks Ard Mhacha - But I am not doubting the validity of the figures I am questioning the conclusions that a return to family values and religion will make things better. I believe that to be a very poor and naive conclusion to draw.

I can find plenty of reference to the Nov 2006 survey (It's well over a year - doesn't time fly!) but I cannot find the new one. If you get chance can you post the URL (Along with the one for your site:-) ) I would love to see who has come up with the conclusions mentioned. Can you also clear up my other question about the degree to which the UK's streets are unsafe?

Cheers and thanks again

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:12 AM

Pretty much the same as enjoying folk music doesn't automatically make someone a boring, aran-sweater-wearing, real-ale-swilling, finger-in-ear-sticking old fart! :-)

I don't remember meeting you, Backwoodsman - How do you know me so well? :-)

I think we are agreed - There is a problem. And I think we agree that generalisations don't help. But unless something is done it could get worse. In terms of statistics (don't you just love 'em) If out of your 100 there are no hooligans and if in mine there are 2 we have arrived at our average of 1% :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:57 AM

That was me I was talking about there Dave! LOL!

I agree that we agree. But how in the name of hell will it be put right? My personal solution would be to re-introduce National Service, work the young buggers until there's no strength left in them for their antics, and let them work their aggression out in a structured and controlled environment (and they'd have some self-respect driven into them too), but I can very well understand that the armed forces almost certainly wouldn't want them. I suppose my above view will have the PC-brigade howling at me now!

It's a tough one, and I feel for the people in Manchester who had to deal with the situation they found themselves thrown into through no fault of their own. I had a situation on a train with some very drunk Doncaster Rovers supporters last year, and they scared me and Mrs. Backwoodsman shitless. Manchester must have been like your worst nightmare.

All the best.
J

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:17 PM

Dave I don`t remember mentioning anything about returning to religion and family values,although I see lots of single mothers here and they leave their child with his grandparents to look after, while the mother returns to her binge drinking and house parties.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Maybe I need to rewind:-) I don't think you did mention such a thing Ard Mhacha - But Berchie did. I am led to beleive that there are now two seperate surveys - One in November 2006 which sparked off the original discussion you are refering to and a recent one that says, and I quote Berchie here -

The public think-tank compared the results with research into family life and behaviour across Europe, concluding that the U.K.'s poor record could be explained by a collapse in family and community life. In general, according to the study, teenagers in other European countries sit down much more frequently to family meals,attend church with their parents, go on holiday with their parents and spend considerably more time in general with their family.

I have, as yet, been unsucessful in finding this recent survey. As you state that "the figures were given on the BBC News within the past two weeks" I guess you must have seen it and I wondered if you could help me find it?

I have no argument with anyone at all that says we have an unacceptable level of hooliganism in both football and elsewhere. I do dispute that it is on every street in the UK and I do doubt that a serious survey would conclude the unacceptable levels stem from people not going to church!

I too love the collection of you tube videos that you have btw. I'm a bit confused what your name is now but I'll get my old folky-fogey brain round it eventualy:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:32 PM

Believe me it was on the BBC News.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:40 PM

I'm not doubting it Ard Mhacha - Just asking for help - Honest! I have searched the BBC web site and can only find the 2006 one:-(

BTW - I have PM'd you for a favour on another matter - Dunno if you check your PMs often. I won't be in the rest of the night and there is no rush anyway but if you can have a look sometime I would be grateful.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:02 PM

well on reflection, I think Ard's got the right idea.

String the youg buggers up by the balls! six of the best and a red hot poker up the roozle!

The streets would once more be a place you'd feel safe to take your maiden aunt, and there would be no more untowardness and and very little unecessariness.

The sooner we get the flagellation squads signed up, and policemen aren't scared to give people with a baseball cap a clip round both ears just in case. the sooner we will notice an improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:38 PM

Well I hope my suggestion held the hope of Redemption, wld. Not sure that six of the best and a red hot poker up the roozle does though! :-) :-)

However, I volunteer to be the red-hot poker monitor.........

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:19 PM

Just back from seeing John Kelly - Who was wonderful.

The only question that springs to mind in my beer enhanced awareness is, what shaped balls should these louts be hung by?

Maybe it's time I went to bed...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:13 PM

Redemption... you're quite right. If they repeat offend, and they grow blase about red hot pokers......ten years listening to The Watersons sing Three Score and Ten on a tape loop. Something lugubrious, and seminally miserable. that'd show 'em.

You know what Tony said, tough on folkmusic and the causes of folkmusic..

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,Christian Catter
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:30 PM

Dave, Children that grow up with Christ in their life from an early age tend to know the difference between right and wrong. Parental responsibly and guidance is what is lacking in modern society. We owe it to our children to give them a guided start in life. I agree with the findings of this report (Guardian May 2008)and feel church attendance as a family has a positive effect. Regretfully church attendance and congregations are dwindling in this country.

Clearly Mr. Polshaw your fixation with the findings of the report regarding worship as a family leads me to believe you are an unbeliever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:30 PM

Reviving National Service might have all kinds of consequences, good or bad, but the idea that it would eliminate street violence is not one of them. Off-duty squaddies, as has been demonstrated time and time again, are just as capable of this kind of stuff as their civilian comtenporaries, and a lot more effective at it. As Kipling wrote "single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints".

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:05 AM

Of course Dave's an unbeliever- but at least he's a CATHOLIC unbeliever. He knows that Christians know the difference between right and wrong- when a Christian does something, that makes it right. And McG is right too- revive National Socialism to give the hooligans a purpose in life. A cadet death squad in every school!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:07 AM

single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints".

few of us do.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: akenaton
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:13 AM

Aye McGrath knows his onions all right!

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:22 AM

You know that perfect example you occasionaly find? The one gem you did not believe really existed? Well, whenever anyone asks you for an example of irony try this one -

On a thread about riots involving a notoriously sectarian organisation someone comes out with the quote "Children that grow up with Christ in their life from an early age tend to know the difference between right and wrong". You couldn't make it up could you:-) I guess all those unionist, hardened C of E, Rangers fans know right from wrong but still did it anyway? Thanks Christian Catter, you're a star.

BTW - I have gone through every quote that Berchie gave us. On the Guardian home page, The BBC and Google and I still cannot find it! Maybe I need divine intervention? Can someone help - Please!

As to me not being a believer. You would be surprised what I believe in. That being a Christian autmaticaly makes you a good person is not one of them. I also call to question the assertion that attendances at religious services are dropping. This 2005 survey in Christianity Today seems to indicate that while Christian attendances are down, the attendances at Mosques double the overall figues. Or do you perhaps not count Mosques in your definition of a church?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 May 08 - 08:43 AM

Not quite Dave, the one thing they are less likely to be than Catholic is C of E... cos they're Scottish. They could be Associated Presbyterians, Baptists, Church of Scotland, Free Church of Scotland, Free Church of Scotland (Continuing), Free Presbyterians Wee Frees) or Scottish Episcopalians just to mention a few, but not C of E, who I understand automatically get a (wee?) free transfer to C of S when they cross the border.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Ahhhhh - Yep. Gotcha. I was using C of E incorrectly instead of Protestant. Well spotted. My eyes were still full of tears...:-)

Instead of unionist, hardened C of E, Rangers fans Please substitute "unionist, hardened Protestant, Rangers fans". Thanks Paul.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:42 AM

'Children that grow up with Christ in their life from an early age tend to know the difference between right and wrong'

yeh and so do rioting soccer fans who get a red hot poker up the roozle.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:40 PM

Dave - What makes you think any of these "unionist, hardened Protestant, Rangers fans" are church-going, or would claim to "have Christ in their life"? The fact that they may self-identify as ("hardened") Protestants says little about their actual religious beliefs and practices. I would imagine that for many being "Protestant" (hardened or otherwise) is more a matter of cultural than religious identity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:16 PM

That's very true, meself. Just like many people say they are one religion or another when it is very obvious that religious values play very little part in their lives. I am sure that Toquemada was hailed as the savior of Christianity in his day and that the Taliban in Afghanistan all attend daily prayers. But in both cases neither religious identity or practice make then particularly good people. I am not being anti-religious here, honestly. Just suspisious of someone who can draw the conclusion that regular attendance at church services will help stem the flow of hooliganism. WLDs red hot poker makes more sense:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:34 AM

Oh bugger, it's THAT answer again. Whenever you point out to believers of any sort that other people of the same nominal belief behave like arseholes (angeli non sunt, sed ani), they shoot back "Ah, but theyre not real xyzists!" If you don't want the tag, don't wear the label. Accept that people take out of a belief system at most what they bring into it- usually less, because of the football crowd effect, which applies to ALL groups, not just Rangers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK football riots. A minority of idiots?
From: Stu
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:01 AM

10o

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