BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:56 AM

A good deal of the problem is the refusal to see the Jews of Israel as Palestinians, too.

To get into the Indian/Colonist analogy, it's as if the Indians after over a thousand years reclaimed a portion of their original lands, displacing the descendants of Colonists.

The blind refusal to see the Israelis as Jewish Palestinians of an earlier vintage leads to the perception of them as occupiers when in fact they displaced the descendants of squatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:58 PM

I definitely cannot agree that more good has been done since the establishment of the State of Israel than before that day. I think much good can be done, if Israel will abandon its expansionist policies, but the establishment of the State of Israel has been the cause of an immense amount of suffering for millions of people.

The riots were no different than the violence committed by Native Americans against settlers in North America, and Blacks against Whites in South Africa. It was the reaction of people to the fact that they were being displaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:29 PM

does anyone speak for all people they allegedly represent?

Come on----I think we can agree that while there is fault all over the world there has been more good done in the Middle East since the statehood of Israel became a fact than before that day. Should thngs be better---sure. Yet--past history shows that there is more freedom for all the people there than before the creation of that state.

As to Palestinians. I won't enter into that again since we all know what happened prior to the creation of the state of Israel and the riots and killings years before that.

I think another poster put it best---access to the holy sites---Western Wall and DOme of The Rock---let us understand that symbolism is important in that area and let us also note who allowed access (Israelis ---not Jews) and who did not prior to the state of Israel.

And the carousel goes on for a few more rounds leading, as always, no where. Save, of course, for the reaffirmation of the justness of the opinions (not facts) of our local historian.

BH

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

He spoke for some of them, but certainly not all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:52 PM

Did Yasser Arafat speak for Palestinians?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:43 PM

I wouldn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:35 PM

People have to tire of shooting themselves in the foot, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:29 PM

Hamas doesn't equal "the Palestinians". Nor are all Palestinians Muslims. The majority are not members of Hamas, and there are also secular and Christian Palestinians. However, what is perceived as the "problem" with the Palestinians is their resistance to being ethnically cleansed and subjected to apartheid. All categories of Palestinians (Christian, Muslim, and secular) are participating in this struggle, and it is not a religious struggle.

It is not a religious issue for "the Palestinians". It may be a religious issue for some Palestinians, but that is not what was said.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM

"The Avalon Project at Yale Law School
Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement"

The sentence I wrote [the Palestinian problem is a religious problem] was from that, Carol. Your scholarship is once again wonderful. Nice try at innuendo. As usual, you screwed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM

I am not familiar with whatever version of events is being promoted by the government of Palestine and the Palestinian leadership. If there even is such a thing, I suspect that it is not the same for Fatah as it is for Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:06 PM

The only way "the Palestinian problem" (how is it that people who would be horrified by the use of a term like "the Jewish problem" are able to use a term like "the Palestinian problem" without a second thought) has anything to do with religion is the extent to which those among the European Jews in Israel and occupied Palestine who are ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and subjecting them to apartheid in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are doing it for religious reasons.


I do think that these discussions make a difference. Not only in the Mudcat, but in the larger context as well. As I have said before, I see an enormous difference in public perception of this issue since I first started paying close attention to it in 2002. Nevertheless, I don't initiate them. I only post to them when they are initiated by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

That was good, Rig.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 07:39 PM

Hot air = Global warming: it all fits together for me:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

So, since this discussion has gone around more times than a carousel on a busy day at Coney Island does anyone honestly believe it will change anything in any form whatsoever---or change the minds of anyone on this venue.

By the way---my earlier quote from Modern Man re: their (comic) song about ethnic groups and included the VIkings was a stab at humor---humour for our friends on the other side of that lovely pond--who knew that within 5 or 6 comments it actually turned into a discussion of global warming. Wow---another carousel ---this one went of its bearings and sailed out of the park.


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

How will 729 people worldwide accomplish that task?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:39 PM

That's right, so if rational thinking people simply banded together to stamp out the scourge of religion, that would be the end of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:24 PM

Anyway, the Palestinian problem is a religious problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 04:21 PM

"The version being promoted by the government of Palestine and the Palestinian leadership is a horrendous libel."


Works equally well that way, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

I would not describe what either Hamas or Israel are doing as genocide. But if someone wants to characterize what Hamas is doing as genocide, then by the standards they are using, Israel is also guilty of genocide.


History is written by the victor. That doesn't make it true. When the actual events have been falsified in the account of history written by the victor, it is necessary to correct that falsification.

The Israeli and Zionist leaderships have written a falsified version of events. The fact that it was falsified has been proven by declassified Israeli government documents as well as the personal accounts and autobiographies of Israeli and Zionist leaders, and accounts given by people serving the UN and members of the government of the US. It is time for this falsified version of events to be corrected. The version being promoted by the government of Israel and the Zionist leadership is a horrendous libel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:55 PM

Well from various sources, including an interview with a former member of the IDF who explained how he'd been out on patrol and had heard odd noises coming from a building in the middle of the night. On investiagting he and his colleague discovered that a Jewish man had knocked a hole with a sledgehammer into the shop of his Palestinian arab neighbour, thereby extending his (the Jew's) living room. He then proceeded to throw the Pal' arabs possessions and stock out on the road and change the locks on the shop door. Mission accomplished, he went off to bed. No sanctions were taken against him. Whatever may be written in law is of little use if not enforced or given unofficial / official approval.

This sort of thing is ongoing in the West bank of course, and it happened in places like Jaffa and Deir Yasin back in the early days of the Israeli state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:43 PM

"since the Jewish immigrants coming from Europe and Russia were given the right to throw Palestinians out of their homes, shops and farms and take up residence in their place. "


Not according to the law. There are PUBLIC lands that were bought by the Jewish Agency, and those are rented ( NOT sold) to Jews.


Where does your statement come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:38 PM

Ok, I see what you are saying. But I (maybe wrongly) wonder what exactly is meant by 'destroying the State of Israel'? At first glance it seems to mean an act of genocide, as in killing the Jewish population who inhabit it. On the other hand, it could mean something else: that the Jewish population living there and the State of Israel can be seen as two seperate entities (hear me out!):

It has been pointed out already that Jews were living in the area down through the ages, which is one of the basis some people use to say there is a continuous historical claim for Jews to regard Palestine as a homeland. Now that being so, it appears that Jews lived alongside Palestinain arabs and otehr ethnic groups in relative peace, if not actual harmony, apart from occasional outbursts of ethnic conflict. I recently finished reading an excellent book on the Templars (by Piers Paul Read - one the best and least sensational account of the fighting Order). There were outbursts of ethnic conflict in the region down through the ages, even prior to the Crusades. He mentions how on at least one occasion Jews massacred Christians, then of course the Crusaders sacked Jerusalem and massacred Jews. But in more recent centuries there seems to have been less conflict. One reason for that may have been the firm fist of the Ottoman empire (much like Tito holding things together in Yugoslavia) until the Otttomans went into decline.

Therefore it does not seem, historically, that the actual presence of Jews in the region was considered to be a problem by the Palestinian arabs who were sharing the territory with them. The conflict seems to have arisen mainly when zionists were starting to accomplish their objective of creating a geographical territory in the region which was intended to be dominated by Jews (in the sense that it was to be a Jewish homeland, and therefore with an assumed majority Jewish population making laws in a majority Jewish parliament for the benefit of a majority Jewish population).

Since immigration into what was to become Israel was already well underway by the time the state of Israel came into being in the 1940s, the sudden influx of immigrants was obviously going to raise tensions. Israel is not unique in this regard, we have witnessed similar tensions in almsot any European country that has seen periods of large-scale immigration (eg, Britain in the 60s and 70s). The Palestinian arabs had a lot culturally in common with the Jews living in the region in terms of lifestyle etc., but the European and Russian Jews arriving were a different proposition: they brought very different cultural expectations etc., and many brought the memory of the holocaust which not unnaturally left them with a 'siege mentality'. Moreover among their number were many religious zealots who believed in their God-given right to dominate whichever other ethnic groups already lived there (as is echoed in the pages of the Old Testament / Torah).

There was another big difference compared to the European experience of immigration: immigrants from former UK colonies in teh 60s and 70s were expected to get on their bike' find a job and buy or rent themselves somewhere to live (once they got past the 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish' signs). There was no quetsion of them arriving and turning English natives out of their homes or throwing them off their land to live as their 'superiors' with an immigrant government approval. On the other hand, this is what happened as Israel, as we know. Conflict was inevitable since the Jewish immigrants coming from Europe and Russia were given the right to throw Palestinians out of their homes, shops and farms and take up residence in their place.

Thus while we can say that Jews and Palestinian arabs had managed to live alongside each other RELATIVELY peacefully until the 20th century, the creation of the state of Israel was altogether a different experience. It brought with it a huge influx of culturall very different Jews from those that had traditionally inhabited the region; the dispossesion of Palestinians, their expulsion; and the relegation of those that remained into a kind of second class citizen within their own homeland. I don't think you need to be a genius to work out what the problem is there.

Now it may be that behind the hyperbole, when Hamas talk about the 'state of Israel being wiped off the map' what is meant is undoing this political entity / state and perhaps replacing it with something more equitable. If I may refer to another precedent: the Civil Rights marchers of 1960s Northern Ireland were not seeking independence so much as just to be treated at least as equal citizens of the UK, of which the North was supposed to be a part. Instead they were met by the batons, bricks and baseball bats of a Protestant / unionist majority who believed in their own God-given supremacy to lord it over the other half of the population and refused to give even the steam off their piss to the civil rights crowd, and Catholics in general. The result of course was 35 years of what was effectively civil war and some 3,500 dead. Nowadays the Northern State as a geographical entity still exists (though one wonders for how much longer) but the nature of that state has started to move towards the more equitable inclusive society it should have been. Israel seems a bit of a 'Northern Ireland for slow learners'

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

BUT rememeber that

1. the Moslims did NOT accept the UN partition that the Jews did

2. The Jews invited the Moslims to stay- the Moslims ordered the Jews to leave.

3. The Palestinains are now asking for about what they would have had in 1948 if they had accepted the Partition.

4. The ARAB MOSLIM Homeland of Transjordan is to the Mandate Palestinian Moslims as Israel is to the Mandate Palestinian Jews- any "right of return is to THAT homeland, NOT to the Jewish Homeland of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

It still hasn't struck you that you rewrite history. Look up the word 'monomaniac'. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

If Israel is committing genocide by the criteria I posted, then by those criteria, so is Hamas.


So, either Hamas is commiting genocide, or Israel is NOT.

Both sides have committed "ethnic cleansing" at various times. So did the Hindus and Moslims in Pakistan/India. Blame the British- they are the ones who set the situation up.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

If Hamas is committing genocide by the criteria I posted, then by those criteria, so is the government of Israel.


Ridicule isn't necessary if one has a legitimate argument. It is only necessary when one hasn't got a legitimate argument. It is a substitute for a legitimate argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm


Also...


Approximately 2,500 years ago, a group of Jews left Judea and settled in Yemen. The tribe was led by the house of Buba and we are told that this move was to facilitate trade. In Yemen they settled in a place and built a city called Senna 1. They were then known as the BaSenna (the people from Senna)

When conditions became unfavorable, and not being a historian, I can not give you exact details of what went wrong; but lets just say they could no longer call Yemen home.
The House of Hamisi took over the leadership and led the people across into Africa.
Once in Africa, the tribe split into 2 sections: One group settled in Ethiopia and the other group went further south along the East Coast. They settled in what today is known as Tanzania/ Kenya and built Senna 2. Here they prospered and increased in numbers.
I'm afraid the travel bug bit once again and they were on the move. A small group went and settled in Malawi and Kenya. Their descendants are still residing in these countries up to today and are generally known as Ba Mwenye (lords of the land)
The remaining group, under the leadership of the house of Bakali, moved on and settled in Mozambique. Here they built Senna 3. Even today, the BaSenna are found in Mozambique.

After many years, part of the tribe, now under the leadership of Seremane (which is the house I belong to); moved further south to settle in Chiramba in what is known today as Zimbabwe. They were known as the Ba-Lemba. Our people still live there up to today. Some of the tribe moved south again and eventually settled in South Africa ( Venda, Louis Trichadt, Pietersburg and Tzaneen). This story has been told to all Lemba children from the time they are able to comprehend. It is told so that we know where we come from, who we are and how we live. It is told and shall continue to be told/written so that future generations are not lost never to be found again.
Do I believe this: Oh Yeah! My father told me and, now there is scientific proof for the non believers: The lemba males posses the Priestly Cohanim gene on their Y chromosome (from work done by Jenkins and Spurgle -Wits University)

Old maps of the Holy Land have now revealed that there was a place called Lemba way back BCE

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

Israeli and Zionist leaders have actively suppressed the history of the Palestinian people, many of them even denying their existence altogether. That is a form of cultural genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:07 PM

I forgot one tribe who were also in South Africa before the Europeans arived - the Lemba, who are Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:04 PM

By HER standard, Israel is not engaged in genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Read CarolC's comment- that is what I am replying to. This is her definition:

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Hamas is intent on destroying a political entity, not a people. Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world. That's not genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

BBruce: "So, Israel is NOT engaged in genocide, since it does not attack Palestinians in other parts of the world"

Come on, now, you know better than that. Hitler expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from Germany and occupied territories BEFORE the Nazi regime starting murdering thousands of them. You could hardly use that as an argument that he wasn't engaging in genocide, just because he let some go and had no beef with them once they weren't living in the Third Reich.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 03:00 PM

"an armageddon to come to 'cleanse' the world of all its undesireable elements, which never seems to include themselves of course"


Too true. it is never the ones hearing the sermon who are in danger, just the "unwashed masses"

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I hope I'm not disturbing anything too much here by going off-thread a bit, but the mention of the evangelicals etc., who are hoping for an armageddon makes me smile (in wry despair, not amusement) - seems to me these groups hope for an armageddon to come to 'cleanse' the world of all its undesireable elements, which never seems to include themselves of course. It reminds me of something I read once (I think in CS Lewis) about how the average High Church of England service-goer enjoys hearing a good hellfire-and-brimstone sermon as he bleieves it'll do his neighbour a world of good to hear it!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

'Cultural genocide'

From 1948 to 1967 please tell me what access Jews had to the Wailing Wall ( holiest site of Judaism)?


From 1967 to present please tell me what access Moslims ( Palestinians in particular) have had to the Dome of the Rock?


Who was trying to commit cultural genocide?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

'Cultural genocide' is more like what Canada is apologizing for to the First Peoples of Canada...trying to erase all traces of their culture whilst turning them into anglicized/francasized Canadians.

CarolC, even you cannot believe that Israel is involved in 'cultural genocide,' even if you believe Israel is involved in an actual genocide. Israel is not trying to make Palestinians into Jewish Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

"Correction: I meant to say ridicule and smear tactics."

But, you merit ridicule for the rewriting of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

All of the Jews who ended up immigrating to Israel from Arab nations were ethnically cleansed from their areas of origin. All of the Jews whose homes have been taken from them by the Arab League in 1948 ( on the West Bank) to make room for Moslim-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been ethnically cleansed.

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, (Stated purpose of Hamas, per it's charter) in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group; ( suicide bombs, rockets, morters)
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(ditto)
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (Mass area bombardment by rockets )

Hamas is attempting genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

Correction: I meant to say ridicule and smear tactics.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:10 PM

When people who are trying to defend the indefensible want to silence opposition, they almost always resort to the use of ridicule. It's all they've got to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

. . . or the petunias.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:06 PM

I have not said that Israel is engaged in genocide. I have said that is has engaged in cultural genocide, but that is a different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

Ethnic cleansing is when people of a particular ethnic group are either killed or forced to leave their homes and areas of origin because of belonging to that ethnic group. All of the Palestinians who ended up in refugee camps were ethnically cleansed from their areas of origin. All of the Palestinians whose homes have been bulldozed to make room for Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have been ethnically cleansed. All of the Arab Israelis who have been forced out of their homes and whose land has been confiscated have been ethnically cleansed.

All of the Jewish-only settlements are being built on land that was ethnically cleansed of its indigenous population. These settlement are still expanding, which means that the ethnic cleansing is still ongoing. Eventually, when the settlements have expanded to include all of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the ethnic cleansing in that area will be complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

"Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world."

So, Israel is NOT engaged in genocide, since it does not attack Palestinians in other parts of the world.

Thank you for the clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

On the other hand, if the term "genocide" can be used in that way to describe what Hamas has in mind for Israel, then it can also be used to describe what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

According to the UN what is happening in Darfur is not "Genocide" CarolC - that's official, because if it was official the UN would have to act forcefully to punish and prevent wouldn't they?

Now if what is happening in darfur is not "Genocide", then what is happening in Gaza or the West Bank is definitely not "Genocide".

"Whether the ethnic cleansing is effective or not, it is still ethnic cleansing." - CarolC

Population Statistics:
1950 – 1,203,000 Jews – 1,172,100 Arabs
2005 - 5,275,700 Jews – 5,139,100 Arabs

"Ethnic cleansing" according to those figures CarolC is non-existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:56 PM

I need some of that for the roses . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

No, Hamas is intent on destroying a political entity, not a people. Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, but they have no beef with Jews who live in other parts of the world. That's not genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


So, Hamas ( the present Palestinian government of Gaza) is engaged in Genocide, by this definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

Genocide is not the murder of a "whole group" of people. At least not according to the people who name mass killings "genocide". Rwanda, for instance, or Darfur, or the Holocaust.

This is from the United Nations' Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide...

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Whether or not some of the people in Africa assisted the slave traders in doing their work, that does not mitigate the crimes that were committed by the slave traders themselves. When the slave traders took possession of human beings, regardless of whether or not they took them from their homes or from other Africans, they were still kidnapping them. They didn't have to take them from the other Africans. They could have set them free. They did not. They took them and placed them in bondage and sold them into slavery.


While the Zulu may have arrived in South Africa after the Europeans, the San and the Khoekhoe predate the Europeans by thousands of years, and non-Zulu Bantu speaking people predate the Europeans by many hundreds of years. Thulamela was occupied by these people in the 13th Century, and Mapungubwe in the 12th century.


There were no people responsible for the Holocaust who were not Europeans.


I notice that every time I make a point to correct someone's distortion of my words, people take that point and distort it as well.    The purpose in saying what I did about Europeans is to point out that the conflict is not between Jews and non-Jews, but between European colonialists and indigenous people. I'm really not interested in having a debate on who is the biggest bad guy.


Whether the ethnic cleansing is effective or not, it is still ethnic cleansing.