BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

CarolC - PM
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Now let me see what CarolC has come up with now, by way of denial, in order that she can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her "Palestinian" brothers and sisters unburdened, in her own mind at least, by the transgressions of her ancestors:

1.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the genocide of the indigenous people of North and South America," – What all of them CarolC? All the indigenous people of North and South America were killed and wiped out by Europeans and people of European origin (euphemism for Americans)? Really? Because that is what genocide is, the murder of a whole group of people, especially a whole nation, race or religious group. The "Holocaust" of the Nazi era was attempted genocide, what happened in Rwanda was attempted genocide, what happened in Cambodia was attempted genocide, what the Government in Sudan and their Janjaweed allies are practicing/attempting in Darfur at the moment is genocide.

2.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of Africans, as well as for enslaving many generations of their offspring" - Well maybe according to Arthur Hailey in his best seller, "Roots", CarolC, but that was the stuff of fiction, not reality. The Slave Trade was extremely well documented by those Europeans and people of European origin (Americans – "A Yankee ship came down the river blow boys blow; Her masts and yards they shone like silver; Blow me bully-boys blow) who took part in it. They kidnapped millions of Africans did they CarolC? Any idea how they managed that? When? Where? In the 350 years of the trade there were only ever two instances where "Europeans and people of European origin" went into the hinterland of the West Coast of Africa to collect slaves, the rest of the time they picked them up from Barracoons on the coast. The greatest slavers in Africa CarolC were the Africans themselves aided and abetted by your pals, the Arabs, "Europeans and people of European origin" came a very poor third.

3.        "Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for apartheid South Africa". Europeans most certainly were not, as apartheid only came to South Africa after 1948 when the Afrikaner National Party won the elections there. So this must be down to those classified by CarolC as "people of European origin", in this case the Afrikaners, formerly the Boers, formerly Dutch Settlers of the Cape Region who had arrived there in the 1650's, and who pre-dated the arrival in the area of the Zulu's by nearly 200 years.

4.        "On top of that, Europeans are entirely responsible for the Holocaust." – Really CarolC? Don't you find that just a little bit too much of a generalization? Europeans in general were responsible for the Holocaust. No, CarolC, one single political party, in one European country was responsible for the Holocaust and in general it was the vast majority of Europeans who rose up to combat it – Now what is the betting that somebody is going to comment that we couldn't have done it without the help of the Americans, which is true, and for which we are all extremely grateful. But note in this context they will be described as Americans who came to our aid, not "people of European origin".

5.         "Europeans and people of European origin", CarolC have admittedly done many bad things as have others, they have certainly made mistakes down through the centuries as have others, but what cannot be denied is that balanced against all of that, they have also brought much good to the lands they traveled to and traded with and to mankind in general.

"Ethnic Cleansing" of Palestinians? When their population has grown at a near equal rate to that of the Israelis since the 1960's. Pretty inefficient and ineffective ethnic cleansing don't you think CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:54 AM

It's gonna end up being Israel's fault--climate change that is. Just you wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:25 AM

Feel free, but it is being proposed as a SOLUTION to GW. I have yet to see any effort being given to the adjustment of populations/species to GW, JUST to reduction of greenhouse gases.

So, we get rid of all the transportation and food production, and THEN try to move people ( and animals) to new zones, and change the food production after we have reduced it by limiting carbon footptints?

Perhaps we should move people FIRST, THEN try to reduce to carbon footprint by limiting transportation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:20 AM

Still drifting - "To claim that nothing EXCEPT reduction of greenhouse gases is required to STOP global warming". Does anyone ever say that? If they do they are stupid and ill; informed, but I don't think I've ever come across anyone who did say that.

If what we are doing is making things worse it makes sense to stop doing it, even if there are other factors outside our control which are also making things worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:05 AM

To claim that nothing EXCEPT reduction of greenhouse gases is required to STOP global warming is just as bed- Given the past ( history) and known flaws in (ever-changing) models, the emphasis should be in the preparation to survive the warming ( or cooling) NOT in trying to keep it steady-state. WE CANNOT CONTROL SOLAR FLUX!

No proponant of limiting greenhouse gases has pushed for ANY changes to adjust populations to global warming - ONLY the attempt to stop it.

Why are we not moving populations out of flood areas?

Why are we not using the warming to develop new areas of food production, as the old ones get warrmer?

Why are we not changing the crops in specific areas to allow for the effects of global warming?


We should be moving our sand-castles, NOT telling the tide to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

More drift (opr rather responding to drift).

There are NO other causes for climate change- That's a distortion of anything that Al Gore or others have said.

It's a bit like saying that anyone who warns against the dangers of dropping matches in forests believes that the only cause of forest fires is people dropping matches, and drawing the conclusion that there is therefore no reason to take any notice of such warnings, and that dropping matches in forests doesn't involve any risk of starting a forest fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

Or all those auto-de-fes in Spain... Oh, that was later.


Maybe the Cretan Cruiseliners had something to do with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

It must have been the coal fired plants the Mayans were operating in Central America that nobody knew about at the time!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 08 - 06:59 AM

" They were victims of climate change, it seems to me. "

But...

but...

St. Al told us that it was industrial Western society that causes climate change- how could that possibly have anything to do with the Vikings???


There are NO other causes for climate change- Thus saith the Word.


YOU are apostate and to be shunned!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:29 PM

"Screwed everything up when the got to Greenland---- burnt and pillaged---they were told you pillage before you burn---damned stupid vikings."


                   Looking at it logically, one would think they would rape the women, then pillage, and then burn. But I think it was the mini-ice age that really did them in. They were victims of climate change, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM

My tax money is not financing the activities of the other "miscreants" in the Middle East. My tax money is financing the activities of the government of Israel. This not only gives me a right to speak out against what it is doing (with my money), but it gives me a responsibility to speak out about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:44 PM

Right you are---on how your tax money is spent. Fat lot of good it does you or I. In a perfect world it would work as you describe but, sadly, by your own comments you know it is not a perfect world.

Europeans seem to be your "whipping boy". Europeans and the Holocaust--which killed other Euoropeans. Europeans for all the evils of the world---oh, yes you did mention that there some other miscreants. But why define them.   Are any Middle Eastern people on your list, any Far Eastern ones?   

One of the musical groups I play on my show---Modern Man does a great routine about various ethnic groups--Irish, Jewish, etc; and start with saying---my folks were the Scandinavians---they were a motorcycle gang that used boats. Screwed everything up when the got to Greenland---- burnt and pillaged---they were told you pillage before you burn---damned stupid vikings. Well, they got there and said---..we gonna be real happy here---dark 6 month and colder than shit.

Truly--- a little humor is needed for these commentaries that, frankly, go nowehere except to inflate the ego of the poster. Yes---you can include if you like but, honestly, I am just tired of the pontification of the pompous posters of pap---how is that for alliteration?   Should I submit it to Jon Stewart or just keep doing this for free on my own program?


BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

Europeans and people of European origin are responsible for the genocide of the indigenous people of North and South America, for the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of Africans, as well as for enslaving many generations of their offspring, they are responsible for apartheid South Africa, for numerous and horrendous acts against the indigenous peoples in all of the other countries that were colonized in Africa as well as many other parts of the world.

On top of that, Europeans are entirely responsible for the Holocaust.

And the European colonialist model is still being used in Israel and occupied Palestine in the ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

This is not to say that Europeans are the only people who have done bad things to other human beings, but they certainly are at the top of the heap when it comes to the amount of aggression they have committed against their fellow human beings, and the amount of enslavement (both de facto as well as de jure) they have imposed on other peoples.


And I am entitled to have an opinion about how my tax money is spent, and nobody has a right to tell me I'm not.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM

Our historian, once again presents an interesting perspective. Europeans are now the root of all evil.

Surely, European hands are not clean---think Inquisition, think Crusades, think Empire building. However, we can find fault with all peoples---think Atilla and his hordes, think Japan and the rape of Nan-king (and, have I somehow forgotten Pearl Harbor?), and our dear religious friends of the Middle East who learned to fly planes but completed their ETA in Nirvana by killing over 3,000 innocent "European" and world citizens at the World Trade Center.

The fact is that fault goes to all peoples for following their own golden rule---instead of do unto others as they would do to you---it is --do unto others before they get to do you.   Sad.

Would that man's inhumanity to man was not the coin of the realm because of power hungry people in all nations and the blind following of the sheep-like multitudes with them---and that includes our Dubya.

It still won't get you medical insurance as a direct link to all the above.

As for the fellows who arrived in Nirvana on schedule---I have it on good authority the virgins had been fooling around whilst waiting their arrival and, boy, were they dissapointed. Planning, I hear, to learn to fly a cloud and try for a different Nirvana---one with like minded guys.

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:50 PM

"I'll take our system with all its warts" wrote John on the Sunset Coast.

This is drift - but isn't the health care system in Australia, where I believe the Sunset Coast is situated, relatively similar to the kind of health care system in most European countries, rather than to the system in the States?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

I need to correct my last post. I said 50 billion people but I meant 50 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:45 PM

My whole reason for mentioning the money being sent to Israel and the lack of health care for almost 50 billion people in the US was to voice my opinion about this state of affairs. I don't think its right for my hard earned tax money to be sent to Israel when I don't even have any access to health care.

This is not a conflation of the two. It is saying that I think that money should be spent here at home. It's my tax money, and I should have some say in how it is spent. We're not supposed to have taxation without representation here in this country, but the government of Israel has more say in how my hard earned tax money is spent than I do. This is taxation without representation, and it's not right. I feel the same way about the money being spent on the Iraq war, but the subject of this thread is Israel and not Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 06:32 PM

Colonialists are people who colonize other peoples land. So to those whose land is being colonized by others, the ones doing the colonizing are colonialists.


If I was allowed to respond directly to posters, I would thank someone for accurately summarizing my positions. Unfortunately, I cannot, but I hope that this person knows that I appreciate her efforts.


Moving on...

There were certainly Jews in the area that is now Israel and occupied Palestine prior to the arrival of the European Jews there. Which is why I am careful to frame the situation as indegenous people versus EUROPEAN colonialists. Even the indigenous Jews have experienced horrendous treatment from the European Jews who have taken over their area of origin.

As I've been saying for a very long time (and being entirely ignored when I say it), it's not about Jews versus non-Jews. It's about European colonialists versus indigenous people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:39 PM

(Israel being the European colonialists who are dispossessing the indigenous people, and the Palestinians being the ones who are being dispossessed).

This is from Carol C.--the historian. Let me see, if I understand---no Jews there in biblical times, no Jews there in 18th, 19th or 20th century (until after WW2). I will have to clear any bookshelf I come across with History books on them and replace them with some items that, perhaps, our local historian can recommend because they show the non-habitation by Jews in the area.

Shame about that wrong turn in the desert---some got oil some got rocks--but did make the desert finally bloom.

As to misunderstanding--as another writer states---of the same "historian" not really directly linking medical care (isnurance) with U S spending on foreign interests---read her words. She made those statements---not I.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:39 PM

Hi John on the Sunset Coast,

1 - she has had a long battle, but her recovery has been a good one. Thank you.

2 - I think the point she made is a valid one for the reasons I've said. It isn't a deliberate conflation to say that the government's first priority should be the welfare of its citizens, not financing foreign wars.

3 - that may be - I was only judging by what I've read in this thread.

4 - thanks for the clarification. I was disappointed to find, reading his biography, that David's politics have moved so far right of centre (but I suspect he'd be similarly disappointed that mine have moved so far left). He was a sweet, funny boy and a good friend. And his mother did make a great goat's cheese sandwich (which seemed very cosmopolitan to me at the age of 16!)

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:54 PM

T.

You forgot to mention the corresponding figures for the Arab nations... (speaking of genocide)


Ignor Saudi Arabia and Jordan, though: Jews have never been allowed to settle there.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:13 PM

Ruth Archer, as you actually mentioned me in your post I thought I might respond to you directly and in reverse order of your comments.

1- I am sorry you and your mother had medical problems; I'm glad you got great care, and just a scare. I hope your mother has had a good recovery, too; you didn't say. BTW, I was not referring to UK.

2- If CarolC did not mean that foreign aid keeps the US from having a good medical care system, then she shouldn't have conflated the two in the first place.

3- I don't approve of folks "deliberately misinterpreting her views" or anybody else's views, however, she has been the queen of that tactic over the years, even unto this thread. I have many times called her on the use of twisting comments and/or deliberate misinterpretation of my comments, even unto this thread. I invite you to do the research.

4- David Brog does not head Christian Zionists (which is like saying he heads Democrats or some other maxi-group). He heads a specific CZ organization, Christians United for Israel, which group claims to not share the more apocalyptic interpretation of Jew/Christian relations as other such groups. He claims he is a normative Jew. Until I learn differently, I will (warily) give him and them the benefit of the doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Stringsinger - 10 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Writes:-
"And the Israeli government broke treaties with Palestine by a process of genocide."

Really Frank?
Well just to make sure that we are talking about the same place Frank, have a look at Palestine in 1920
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

That is what it looked like until the British, with the approval of The League Of Nations sub-divided it into the area known as Transjordan and the smaller area that became known as Palestine. Transjordan now known as Jordan was the Palestinian Arab Homeland in which Jews were not allowed to settle or own property. After the sub-division the smaller area known as Palestine was where the Palestinian Jewish Homeland was to be established. Please note Frank that everyone living in that smaller sector of the original Mandated Territory has the right to refer to themselves as "Palestinians", Jews as well as Arabs, Christians and others. The original intention was for Palestine to be a single sovereign state shared by both Jew and Arab but:

1920 – Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews – Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank?

1921 – Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews - Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank?

1929 - Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews – Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank?

1936 – The Great Arab Revolt and guess what Frank? Yep you're right, would you somehow credit it!!! - Unprovoked attacks by Arabs on Jews – Or do you want to tell me that that never happened Frank? The revolt lasted until 1939 Frank, but this time there was a difference, the Jews organized and fought to defend themselves, they also aided the British in suppressing the revolt.

1937 – British Peel Commission recognize that the Arabs and the Jews living in Palestine will never "share" the land of Palestine and a two state solution is proposed, it is rejected out of hand by the Arabs, and rejected by the Jews but acknowledged as a starting point for future negotiations

1945 – Jewish resistance to British control over immigration and occupation

1947 – UN Propose a two state solution, have a look at what they proposed Frank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.png

Now tell me if I am mistaken Frank but isn't what the "Palestinians", you refer to, are fighting for and demanding now just somewhat less than what they were offered in November 1947?

Can you explain why they didn't take it then? Because once more they rejected it out of hand, the Jews of Palestine on the other hand accepted it and as the British Mandate drew to a close the Jews of Palestine declared the existence of the Sovereign State of Israel based upon the borders drawn up by the UN.

Let's take a look at populations Frank because you have accused the Israeli Government of "genocide" (I take it that you do know what the official definition of that term is – I have to ask as it is plain as a pikestaff that the UN do not):

1914 – Ottoman Empire – 60,000 Jews - 731,000 Arabs
1922 – British Mandate – 83,790 Jews – 668,258 Arabs
1931 – British Mandate – 174,606 Jews – 858,708 Arabs
1941 – British Mandate – 474,102 Jews – 1,111,398 Arabs
1950 – Israel + Arab Occupied Palestinian Territory – 1,203,000 Jews* – 1,172,100
* Increase in Jewish population largely caused by eviction of Jews from Arab countries through the middle-east and North Africa.
1960 - Israel + Arab Occupied Palestinian Territory – 1,911,300 Jews – 1,340,100 Arabs
1970 – Israel including Israeli occupied Territory – 2,582,000 Jews – 1,045,000 Arabs
1980 - Israel including Israeli occupied Territory – 3,282,700 Jews – 2,100,000 Arabs
1995 - Israel + Gaza + West Bank + Golan – 4,495,100 Jews – 3,506,900 Arabs
2005 - Israel + Gaza + Golan – 5,275,700 Jews – 5,139,100 Arabs

Correct me if I am missing something here Frank but in the case of "genocide" doesn't the population of the persecuted race go down? And Frank, if you want a really clear example of how your "genocide" works take a look at the statistics for Jerusalem:

In 1910 there were 45,000 Jews and 12,000 Arabs living in Jerusalem.
In 2005 there were 582,700 Jews and 240,900 Arabs living in Jerusalem.

Do the maths and you will see that the Arab population of the city has increased by a factor of 20 times, the Jewish population has increased by a factor of 13. So when did this "genocide" occur Frank?

Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

Hamas excludes the possibility of long term reconciliation with Israel. "Since the Prophet Muhammad made a temporary hudna, or truce, with the Jews about 1,400 years ago, Hamas allows the idea. But no one in Hamas says he would make a peace treaty with Israel or permanently give up any part of Palestine.". Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University explains that "They (Hamas) talk of hudna, not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine."

Now all this "right-wing propaganda", Frank comes directly from Hamas's Charter, certainly not from, "the halls of the Pentagon and White House".

"The truth is that in spite of the rhetoric, neither Israel nor Palestine wants war." - Awfully encouraging that Frank, but for some reason, mainly the fact that the "Palestinian Arabs" have never lived up to, or kept to, their end of any agreement, I could see why your assertion could be viewed with some skepticism by the Israelis.

"What they want is parity, plain and simple. Teribus is talking rubbish." – Really Frank? All they want is parity? That was offered them in 1937, 1939, 1947, 1949, 1993, 1996 – rejected by the "Palestinian Arabs" every single time that is not rubbish Frank that is purely a matter of record. Why all of a sudden is what was unacceptable in 1947 become acceptable now?

"Hamas is a reactionary force, like so many, which has its back up against a wall. It is not an effective worker for peace at the present although Jimmy Carter has said that it would consider peaceful negotiations." – Oh yes Frank I remember that. Happened a bout a month ago, or so. There you had old "Peanut" Carter chattering away to the leadership of Hamas in Damascus and on arriving back in Israel declaring that Hamas would consider peace negotiations and were fully prepared to recognize Israel's right to exist. Unfortunately, I also remember that within four hours of that little message being delivered the self same leader of Hamas from Damascus stated quite categorically that Hamas would never recognize Israel's right to exist – Once more Frank all that is a matter of documented and well reported record. Don't shoot me I am only the messenger.

"The idea that one side is not culpable is ludicrous." – Quite agree with that Frank, all you have to do now is convince the likes of CarolC, Emma B, Guest Albert, autolycus and a whole host of one-post mushroom Guests of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:14 AM

Eh? No CarolC as far as the Native American Indians were concerned they were the pale-faced enemy, I doubt it very much if they were interested in distinctions of origin, considering that they were being driven from their land and had much more pressing things to think about. But I guess if calling them "European Colonialists" eases your pangs of guilt regarding the sins of your forebears so be it, content yourself with that delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:12 AM

I started following this thread because I noted in an early post, with surprise and not a little horror, that my friend from high school, David Brog, evolved into a right-wing political activist who now heads up the Christian Zionists. He was apparently developing his political philosophy while we were skipping French and sharing goat's cheese sandwiches. Who knew?

While CarolC's views may seem entrenched and one-sided, I think that's partly because she has to keep repeating herself to people who deliberately misinterpret her views.

It is not anti-Jew or anti-Semitic to dispute Zionism.I haven't seen any posts here where she appears to be attacking Israeli people. She questions (rightly, in my opinion) the Israeli state, its treatment of the Palestinian people and the bankrolling of the Israeli state by the US government.

I don't think she meant to imply a direct correllation between the lack of health care in America and the funding of Israel by the US government. But the point she makes illustrates something pretty fundamental about the priorities of the American administration. To continue to fund the Israeli state and the war in Iraq when people in America are denied access to basic health care is not just a scandal - it's criminal, IMHO.



John on the sunset coast said:
"Learned about half hour ago that a friend (middle 40s) of my wife's who lives in one of those European Universal Health Care paradises has been diagnosed with cancer requiring a total hysterectomy. It took several weeks to get the necessary tests, over three weeks to get the results, and it will be five to six weeks, minimum, before she can get the actual surgery.

I'll take our system with all its warts."

My mother, who lives in New Jersey, and I, who live in the UK, both went through something similar to this, at the same time, last summer. Mine turned out to be a scare - she had to have an operation on her cancer. But I can tell you, the UK system was second to none. the speed at which I was seen, the comprehensiveness of the care and support, knocked spots off the level and speed of care that my mum received. I was into the doctor, had a "fast-track" referral to the hospital, and had every test I needed - and the results - on the same day. My mum had to go to numerous places for her tests, and it took weeks for the tests and results to come through.

Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:23 AM

They were colonialists as far as the Native Americans were concerned, and they were of European origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 01:16 AM

CarolC, I love your terminology, but just to historically correct anything that happened to the North American Indians after 1776 in the US was done by Americans, who may, or who not have been "European Settlers" they were definitely not "European Colonialists" as Europe after completion of the Louisiana Land Purchase held no part of the USA.

The British generally held to their treaties with the indigenous population (The major source of contention between the Colonists and the Crown - it certainly had nothing to do with taxation, or oppression - they were the excuses given at the time), so did the Spaniards and the French. The only people with a vested interest in a land grab in the USofA were the settlers (Americans) themselves, not the Governments who sent them or allowed them to depart.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 12:12 AM

Native Americans committed acts of violence against the European colonialists, but that doesn't make them "at fault". The ones who were at fault in that situation were the European colonialists who were dispossessing the indigenous people of everything they ever had. It is no different with the Israeli leadership and Zionist leadership, and the Palestinians (Israel being the European colonialists who are dispossessing the indigenous people, and the Palestinians being the ones who are being dispossessed). When people commit acts of violence as a form of resistance against being dispossessed, that doesn't make them at fault. It's perfectly legitimate to resist being dispossessed. The ones at fault are the ones who are dispossessing the indigenous people of everything they ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 07:29 PM

Both sides are at fault in most conflicts. But that does not mean equally at fault - for example on cases of domestic violence. "She was asking for it" is not generally seen as excusing a man who brutalises his wife.

Similarly, for example, the comparative scale of killings of civilians, and of children in particular, on two sides in a conflict are a significant element in apportioning relative condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

"The idea that one side is not culpable is ludicrous."

Absolutely. AT LAST someone who is willing to say that BOTH sides are at fault. THANK YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

It takes decades of planning and action to bring something like that to fruition, which is certainly what has happened. We can see the results ourselves even though the plan is still being implemented and is not yet complete.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Teribus writes:-

"The Native American Indians negotiated peace treaties with the "White Man" in good faith, they had every intention of keeping them. It was the US Government in Washington and the greed of the settler's that broke those treaties."

And the Israeli government broke treaties with Palestine by a process of genocide.

"Now with regards to the Palestine/Israeli conflict you have one side who seeks the desctruction of the other and has made no secret of it and who views any peace treaty/cease-fire as being only a temporary measure in which to rearm and regroup."

This is right-wing propaganda that is emanating from the halls of the Pentagon and White House. The truth is that in spite of the rhetoric, neither Israel or Palestine want war.
This is the machination of Teribus. It is not in Palestine's interest to wipe out Israel and they know it. What they want is parity, plain and simple. Teribus is talking rubbish.

" And another side committed to finding a peaceful resolution and to peaceful co-existence. The first group CarolC are the Palestinians, the second the Israelis."

This is so much propaganda that it will not pass the smell test. There are factions in Israel that see the injustice done to Palestinians but there are hawks such as Ohmert who show very little interest in peaceful negotiations, just a wish to dominate. AIPAC in the US support this insanity because they are afraid. Fear is what dominates foreign policy in the Mid-East today, not peaceful resolutions which are not in evidence at all.

Carol C is exactly right. There is a lop-sided view in favor of Israel's autonomy at the expense of a Palestinian state, which many in Israel do not want to see established.
Hamas is a reactionary force, like so many, which has its back up against a wall. It is not
an effective worker for peace at the present although Jimmy Carter has said that it would consider peaceful negotiations. Carter has set the groundwork for talks as he did in his presidency between Arab and Israel. This stupid war-mongering is the effect of Washington/AIPAC brainwashing and bully-pulpit hegemony which will not solve any
of the problems of the Mid-East. The idea that one side is not culpable is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:28 AM

Thinking it so does NOT make it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 11:19 AM

The side that seeks the other's destruction is the one that has, since before they even began dispossessing those on the other side, been very clear that removing all of those other people is the goal.

The European colonialists in what is now Israel and occupied Palestine have been very clear from the very beginning that their goal and purpose is to remove all of the indigenous people from the area they wanted for their state, and they have also been very clear that the boundaries of the area they want for their state shall be defined only by them.

And this makes my comparison entirely accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM

"Now with regards to the Palestine/Israeli conflict you have one side who seeks the desctruction of the other and has made no secret of it..."


                        Which side is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 01:24 AM

CarolC, your post of 10 Jun 08 - 12:07 AM is complete and utter rubbish, you are comparing apples to oranges. The Native American Indians negotiated peace treaties with the "White Man" in good faith, they had every intention of keeping them. It was the US Government in Washington and the greed of the settler's that broke those treaties.

Now with regards to the Palestine/Israeli conflict you have one side who seeks the desctruction of the other and has made no secret of it and who views any peace treaty/cease-fire as being only a temporary measure in which to rearm and regroup. And another side committed to finding a peaceful resolution and to peaceful co-existence. The first group CarolC are the Palestinians, the second the Israelis.

Nothing at all like your attempted comparison CarolC, unless of course you wish to reverse the roles.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 12:07 AM

When the Native Americans were being wiped out and driven from their lands by the European settlers, there was nothing they could have done or not done to prevent it from happening. There was a policy to do so, and a plan for carrying it out, and these were backed by superior military might. It is no different for the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:52 PM

There are too many glittering generalities about this issue. Obviously there is some problem about some Arabs who live in Israel. There is a denial by some Israelis who believe that Palestinians are Arabs and not Palestinians. There is a problem also with Jews who live in Arab countries as well.

This everybody-gets-along-so-well idea is reminiscent of the patronizing attitude of
white landholders in Antebellum and recent US South toward Black people.

Of course there is a problem otherwise there would not be the conflict.

Harvard studies are cheap, these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:17 PM

Direct link or not, we have no business giving billions of dollars to a country that doesn't need it, while people in this country aren't getting their needs met.

BTW, I am the only one who is not allowed to directly refer to other posters. There is no rule that others can't mention me by screen name, or to make personal attacks on me either, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:17 PM

You know the poster who shall be unnamed truly should run for public office (Pres?) since the sins of omission and the hyperbole along with the obfuscation of the core of her arguments is always being blamed on misinterpration by others. The poster would also have us believe that there is a direct link between health care and foreign aid. Would that were the case.

Health care is a political football all on its own---sadly. Think back to the cliches of years past---socialized medicine, welfare, and more. How come no mention of the the pork that Senators spend much time promulgating---bridges to nowhere for example.   Well, it is not Kosher since it is Pork; so, perhaps, our poster does not feel that important.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

See my 07 Jun 08 - 10:15 PM post and the post that preceded it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

So that means ALL other countries that don't need it and not just Israel, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:18 PM

I imagine if people put enough creativity into twisting my words, they can squeeze pretty much any kind of meaning out of them.

However, what I said before, and I will say again, is this...

We have no business sending billions of dollars to another country that doesn't need it while the needs of the people in this country are not being met.

This is money that US taxpayers earn with their (our) hard work. It is money that should be used for this country and for the benefit of the people in this country, and not given away as welfare payments to people who do not live in or pay taxes in this country, especially since they don't need it.

I don't think anyone whose hard earned tax money is not being given away to another country that doesn't need it, while people in their own country aren't getting their needs met, is in a position to tell those of us who are how we should feel about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:12 PM

Right. So rather than remark on a defense budget that is way out of control that post remarked on Israel. I get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 04:10 PM

There is nothing factually incorrect in the part of my post that has been quoted. If we had that money, we could do that.

There is also nothing in the part quoted that implies that Israel is responsible for the fact that we are giving it this money instead of keeping it and using it for the benefit of the people in this country. So there is nothing in the post that implies that Israel is responsible for the lack of health care for many people in the US.

The US government is responsible for the fact that we are giving this money to Israel. And the US government is responsible for the fact that almost 50 million (and growing) people in the US have no access to any kind of health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:56 PM

"The US has been giving money to Israel for many years. The total of direct US aid the US has given to Israel is around 108 billion dollars. And that doesn't count all of the hidden ways we give money to Israel, such as guaranteed loans, which Israel has never once paid back. That's a lot of money and we need it. Israel doesn't. If we had that money now, we would be able to provide health care to people in the US. The war in Iraq could be considered a kind of financial aid to Israel as well, since many Israeli and Zionist leaders see the war in Iraq as being strategically important to Israel."

I seem to have misunderstood. The above poster didn't even imply that Israel had anything to do with lack of free/affordable health care in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 10:15 PM

I would too.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM

Yes, I agree, Carol, but I'd happily quit giving money to Egypt as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:58 PM

People keep putting words in my mouth. I see no reason to try to defend someone else's straw man argument.

What I have said before, and I will say again, is this... we have no business sending billions of dollars to another country that doesn't need it while the needs of the people in this country are not being met.

Subject: RE: BS: Israeli Jews/Israeli Arabs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:53 PM

I had not wanted to re-enter this discussion but since it has gone off on a truly strange tangent by our resident authority on all things Middle East because the "authority"cannot afford medical insurance--or care--because of Israel I had to join in.

We need the money we are giving to Israel. Israel does not need it. Again, I question whether anyone in any other industrialized country would be willing to have many billions of dollars of their tax money being given to a country that doesn't need it, while they are not able to get health care to millions of their own citizens.

Let me see if I have this right---if Israel did not get U S aid we would have proper health care. If the war in Iraq continues, the aid to other Mid - East countries, and the all the aid around the world it would not enter the equation. Let me also understand this. Does this un-named poster (due to no personal responses)believe that Medical Insurance this poster cannot afford would miraculously appear if the U S stopped sending dollars around the world---but, mostly, to Israel? Try the word "politics" as to medical care, Social Security, and all other social programs.

It has always amazed me how far this nation has come given the self interst diplayed by so many people---from the politicos to the ---as the novel of years back once said---"The Great Unwashed". But we have. Mircacle of miracles.

As to medical care. I have to agree with this poster--who cannot be named. It is a sad thing that this nation does not have proper medical care for all its citizens. Which brings us to the comments in the previous paragraph of how it is we have come as far as we have. What we have to disagree on is the direct link between aid to Israel and Medical Insurance.

One particular line stands out----"...a country that does not need it"..

Let me translate that code for our readership---Rich Jews (ala Mr.A Hitler)!. Oil rich Arab nations that rcve aid and have dealings with our multinationals do not seem to bother our objective correspondent. Aid to Egypt----and guess who built the pyramids for no pay---does not seem to upset our aforementioned correspondent.

I think the bottom line is that there is no direct link between her medical problems and foreign aid---anywhere.

I hope the hysterectomy works out---sincerely. Perhaps a benefit concert. Though---proper insurance would be only right and would not really be connected to those Israelis who advanced medicine but but are not in need of U S Aid to maintain the nation because it is supported by ---you know those rich old---you know who.

I wonder, as a final thought, if there were no American Revolution and England kept he colonies how history would have turned out. As they said after the revolution---Who'd A Thunk it? Ok--no one ever said that---except me!.

Bill Hahn