English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 31 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Correct DS, but scratch a demonically inspired, folically super-abundant, pharmaceutically supported, ex-Rover windscreen wrangler but latterly Strat flailing soprano son of Halesowen and you'll probably find a second generation Irish or Welsh spoon clacker.
You could make a good case for regionalism having more validity than national sound in the English canon.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:44 PM

WAV, while yesterday I agreed with you in principle about this, I suddenly realized something, which was actually pretty obvious. Your point of when an English musician plays a Swedish tune for example, they are taking away from one of their own English tunes, as you yourself mentioned regarding My Bonnie, which you now say you have abandoned. Well, I've been to your myspace page, and I see one of your top friends is Kathryn Tickell (actually, she's one of mine too, I've met her, and I hold her talent in very high regard) and have just about everything she's done. So I'm guessing you think highly of her as well. Now, I can open up anyone of the notes to her albums and find her doing Northumbrian tunes of course, but a quick perusal will find Irish, Greek, Scottish, French, Italian, tunes in their as well. First part of my question is this-she is the player of one of the most recognized native instruments of the English folk tradition-if you did not read the liner notes beforehand, would you recognize those tunes as not being of English origin? In other words, do you fault her for playing Swedish tunes on an English instrument, even though without the benefit of notes, would be unrecognizable to most ears? Second question is, related to this specifically, Kathryn is or was (and Sue or DS, I'm sure you know if she still is or not)a lecturer on the Folk & Traditional Music Degree Corse at Newcastle University. So this is someone whom I think you respect WAV. WOuld you tell Kathryn Tickell personally, number one-you should ONLY be playing English material (and I guess Kathryn's many excelent self-penned tunes would count as not of the tradition, therefore, not playable), and number two, that your lecturing in this degree course is detrimental to English traditional music, because it includes some Irish music? Howard's point above was completely true-as a player, why limit yourself. I could give you a hard time for listing the cords of a Scottish song on an English music thread. I could, but I won't, because I really don't care. I like to know where a song or tune comes from, but that's it. Meanwhile, I'm off to play Kathryn's album Strange But True-but I guess it's not going to be pure enough for your liking.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:07 PM

No two adults will ever agree on everything, or it would be incredibly rare, IE. Overall, I like KT's work. Her self-penned tunes are English. I've only spoken briefly to KT, and it was only about one of her gigs/tickets left...but I tend to be frank in person in the right situation, at least. (Also, I don't agree with every single lyric in my E. trad. repertoire.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:14 PM

Kathryn is or was a lecturer on the Folk & Traditional Music Degree Corse at Newcastle University

irishenglish, and the answer is

Ms Kathryn Tickell : Lecturer

Her self-penned tunes are English. So this makes her alright then. What about the traditional material, not all of that is English is it?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:19 PM

And of course, Ms Tickell has worked with non-folk musicians on many occasions ;-)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:38 PM

I've answered that, just above "no two adults..." Can you name me someone, DS, with whom you agree on everything?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 31 May 08 - 05:42 PM

You've answered nothing WAV, just weaseled your way around answering, yet again. Your No two adults is typical. So don't push the responsibility off onto me or anyone else.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Graveyard
Date: 31 May 08 - 06:34 PM

Why do you keep on feeding this guy. As we all know, anyone can be a 'friend' on myspace, you don't even have to know them. So to say KT is a friend is somewhat suspect, depending upon your definition of 'friend'

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 31 May 08 - 07:52 PM

OH dear god..... :0


A slight divergence re my own interest in this.... I do so wish that one of the south-western universities could run something like the Newcastle course, for those of us down here who can't move away....

Sue

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:37 AM

Graveyard - yes, a myspace Friend is, of course, really a web-link, and if we, overall, like someone's work, we put them on our Top Friends/top links.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:33 AM

In the spirit of Egalitarianism, I've now randomised my myspace friends; this way you see a new bunch each time to log in, so it's nice to be reminded of people you might have forgot about...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:36 AM

Christ - is it really June already?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:21 AM

I've noticed this randomised Top Friends tool, Sedayne...but who's this heavily made-up type on your header photo?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:50 AM

Drunken Sailor (in your repertoire of Trad English songs).
"A favorite of the old British Indiamen, has been adapted from a traditional Irish dance & march tune." See Deoflinger: Shantymen & Shantyboys, p48

Hugill, "Shanties From The Seven Seas" Drunken Sailor (p108-109)
"The air is from a Traditional Irish dance, as well as a march tune"


"Tommy's Gone To Hilo" also in your repertoire
From Roll & Go: Songs of the American Sailormen by Joanna C Colcord
"The melody in interesting because it seems to show some trace of Oriental influence, the first chorus being reminiscent of Chinese music." (p26)

Hugill, "Shanties From The Seven Seas" Tommy's Gone To Hilo (p192-193)
"The tune has an Oriental touch to it"


I guess you'll be dropping these from your rep & from your site?

Granted, I won't argue with your other selections but I thought that I'd throw those 2 in your lap just to say that I believe that your beliefs are faulty

To say that these particular shanties belong to one culture or another or is pure English is a magnification of your believed theory, which I'm not sure of what that really is.

The maritime musical culture of the "golden age sail" was such a mix that to pin point much of the music to one nation, nationally, ethic group or race is a risk that shouldn't be taken on so easily. As in many of the tunes discussed above, none are landlocked by borders of any type & once crossed become part of a larger culture. That's not to say that many of the songs can't be nailed down to one point of origin but on the other hand you can also say that even if one can be nailed down to a certain point of origin you can't lock it in the culture of it's origins once it's mingled & travel out side of it's small confined borders, it then becomes part of a multi-culture & if fact may even disappear altogether from it's place of birth so that to try & reclaim it would be an exercise in futility, which I believe is the path you are on. If I were to play & sing "Sailor's Hornpipe" or "Soldier's Joy" for example, I believe I could play & sing them as an English tune, an Irish tune, an American tune, even as an Old Timey or as a Maritime tune or song both belonging in its on subculture, but you can play them as you wish but don't tell the others that they've no right to play it if they're true purists.

As far as KT's music, why if she writes it does it become property of the English culture?
Aren't you putting the cart before the horse? She writes in a style & idiom that reflects an English style & background, she English by birth & bred as such, she's studied & lectured on the subject? I think before you claim that her music is English you'd do well to let those that "live" & "keep alive" the English culture, if there is such a pure thing,
decide that first.

Anyway, I'm finding myself an education in this thread.

Barry

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

Sorry, "Deoflinger: Shantymen & Shantyboys, p48" that should be Doerflinger, my apologies to William Main.

Barry

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

who's this heavily made-up type on your header photo?

Who? Why that's me being publicly molested by Shameless Shabacko, aka Jake Rodrigues, of The Pierrotters, who we chanced upon last weekend whilst mooching about The North Pier at Blackpool - a wonderful coincidence as we've been wanting to see them since the Five Guys Named Acko documentary on BBC2 some years ago. Traditional sea-side entertainment at its very finest. I wonder, is there a module on the Folk Degree course about the Pierrot tradition? There should be!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM

To Barry - I've googled those two you mention, above, from my repertoire , and one site does mention an Irish tune, as you say, but another says English shanty..? Also, the first line I've been singing to "Tommy's Gone to Hilo" is "My Tommy's gone from Liverpool"..? I don't have a copy of either the Oxford or the Penguin book of English folk songs, nor can my library find one, for me to check, so perhaps someone else can, please.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

You won't find it in the Penguin, don't know about the Oxford. Hugill gives "Tommy's gone to Hilo town" as a first line and another variant as "Tommy's gone on a whaling ship". But there's no "right" version, every shantyman would have had his own version, and they were semi-improvised.

As we know, anyone can put stuff on the internet without knowing anything about the subject. I'd sooner rely on Doerflinger and Hugill than on something found by googling.

And Barry Finn is right, shanties came from a multi-national culture, just because they're in the English language doesn't make them "English" in the sense WAV wishes for.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

I wasn't wishing, Howard, but thanks.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:26 PM

I can't make sense of the sense WAV wishes for. It seems to be that even if a song has been accepted into the English repertoire and has been part of that repertoire for centuries, it would not be English enough?

---
btw. from Fiddler's companion.

FLOWERS OF EDINBURGH [1] (Blata Duin-Eudain). AKA - "Flooers o' Edinburgh." AKA and see "Cois Lasadh/Leasa" (Beside a Rath), "Flowers of Donnybrook," "My Love's Bonny When She Smiles On Me," "My Love was Once a Bonny Lad," "Rossaviel," "To the Battle Men of Erin," "Old Virginia." Scottish (originally), Shetland, Canadian, American; Scots Measure, Country Dance Tune or Reel: English, Reel, Country or Morris Dance Tune (4/4, cut or 2/2 time); Irish, Reel or Hornpipe. Originally from Scotland, Lowlands region. USA; New England, southwestern Pa., Missouri, New York, Arizona. Canada; Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton. G Major (most versions): Morris version in D Major

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:30 PM

I think it self-evident that there ought to be an English Folk music degree. It would be pretty stupid if someone doing a German language degree studied French, wouldn't it?

Many songs and tunes are found in more than one tradition - some more evidently than others showing traces of differnet ancestry. But the same can be said of words. The Loom of Language (as I understand it is called) shows many words coming from different sources in different languages and shows many words in many languages coming from common sources. That does not make all languages the same, and a "modern languages" degree is different from an English (or Spanish) degree.

Some songs common in particular traditions are about the historical hatred of one race or culture or whatever you want to call it for another. Many Irish songs and tunes are rooted in hatred for the English. Many Southern Irish songs, for the Northern Irish, many English songs for the French, and so on.

If we do not consciously try to preserve the English traditions of song and tune and dance, they will be lost, while the traditions of the Irish and Scottish will live on, and maybe the Welsh as well.

By the way, I've been away for the weekend, so what other thread?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Sorry, WAV, I must have misunderstood you. I thought your position is that English people should perform material from English culture. Despite your Australian upbringing, you identify yourself as English (and I don't have a problem with that) to the extent of excluding songs and tunes from other cultures from your repertoire. As you have included these shanties in your repertoire I assumed that you believe them to belong to English culture.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

If you look back, Howard, just above, I've called for an enquiry on these two shanties, given that Barry questioned their origins. On myspace, by the way, someone else (doing the above Newcastle degree, as it happens) also questioned the origins of The Water is Wide, from the same repertoire.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM

WAV, one simple question. DO you enjoy singing those two shanties, as well as The Water is Wide?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:44 PM

from the same repertoire

Is Jerusalem a hymn, strictly speaking? I'm sure Blake didn't intend it as such. Worth a bit of research maybe??

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:46 PM

Blake would've been appalled, it's protest verse!!!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 03:52 PM

Shanty singing as we know it evolved around the 1830s (based simply on earliest references) as a mid-Atlantic phenomenon, and among multi-racial crews. English tends to be the dominant language used because at the time the dominant merchant fleets were American and British. There is strong evidence to suggest that shanty singing evolved from American river songs and slave songs. Many of the shanties have American themes.

I find it incredible that there are still dinosaurs around who believe that you should ONLY sing the songs of your own culture. I thought these ideas died out long ago. It has fascist/racist undertones to me.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:13 PM

That's true Sedayne, some/many in the C. of E. don't like "Jerusalem" being called a hymn; and, yes, Volgadon, Blake definitely did not write it as a hymn...it does mention "the Holy Lamb of God", mind.
And, yes again, Volgadon, I do enjoy singing The Water is Wide, and those 2 shanties.
To Steve: I tend to agree with most of your first paragraph, but not the second.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

"There is strong evidence to suggest that shanty singing evolved from American river songs and slave songs. Many of the shanties have American themes."

The book 'Slave Songs of the Georgia Sea Islands', by Lydia Parrish, identifies various sea shanties being sung by the ex-slave communities she researched and collected from (circa 1912, but many of the older singers she collected from remembered the songs from 50 years before). A number of those songs are ones we'd recognise in England, such as Sandy Anna and Shilo Brown. There was so much cultural interchange over these songs that none of them can be absolutely identified as "belonging" to a particular culture.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 04:55 PM

WAV: so you enjoy singing these shanties, but will you stop once its established that they are not "English" as you define it?

We're going to have a lot of fun forcing you to learn an entire new repertoire. Let's start with Barbara Allen: my copy of Bronson gives versions from England, but also from Scotland, and various parts of the US and Canada. So how can we be sure that this is English?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM

"my copy of Bronson"

Oooh, get you, flashing your Bronson! Who's the daddy?!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Yes - I thought someone would mention "Barbara Allen"...but here you mention an important word, Howard, "versions"...guess which one I've opted for?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

tell us, WAV - where has your "English version" of Barbara Allen come from, and how does it differ from all the other "versions"?

They're all the same song. So what makes it sufficiently English to be included in your repertoire?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:08 PM

Howard Jones

Let's start with Barbara Allen: my copy of Bronson gives versions from England, but also from Scotland, and various parts of the US and Canada.

You mean it doesn't mention the version from my ancestor (possibly) Ellen Creer from the Isle of Man?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:15 PM

Sorry Snail, it doesn't. I'd overlooked an Irish version though.

Ruth Archer: it's the paperback version of Bronson, Princeton University Press 1976. Quite expensive at the time as I recall but one of my better purchases.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

Bronson's never cheap - the last set I saw was £800, but I think it had also belonged to Maud Karpeles.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM

here, Ruth.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM

Neither shanties are in the Oxford Book of Sea Songs, the Viking Book of Ballads From the English Speaking World nor the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs.
A common theme with "Tommy's Gone To Hilo" (as with a few other shanties) would be for the shantyman to sing as many 3 syllable ports as he could muster up to draw the shanty along & show off his skills as a song leader. Rio Grand, Montreal, Newfoundland would fit the bill as well as Liverpool. The song is associated mostly with the nitrate trades.

Barry

Also see Sharp for TGtH

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM

So how do you know that the version you've learned, taken from the internet, is English? Apart from being in some big on-line database, what is its provenance?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM

out of interest, WAV, do you get a lot of your music from sources like that? It has to be the most soulless thing I've ever seen - about as removed from any folk process as it's possible to be.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:42 PM

Ruth Archer: when I say "expensive" I think it was about £25 - quite a lot back in the 70s but not quite in the bracket you mentioned

WAV: the version of "Barbara Allen" that you perform may be English (although "an English" rather than "the English" version), but that doesn't mean it's English in origin, which seems to be the crucial issue for you. The website you refer to admits that "The English and Scottish both claim the original ballad"

WAV, I don't believe any of us arguing with you on here disagree with your idea that English culture should be promoted. Where we differ is the idea that traditional songs and tunes can be identified as purely English. Of course some do exist, but much of the material which made up the repertoire of traditional singers and musicians is shared widely throughout the British Isles and beyond, and some of the themes they contain can be found throughout the wider Indo-European traditions of ballads and stories. It is your notion of exclusivity that we reject.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

WAV, if you enjoy singing something, then you rob yourself by cutting it out over something so pointless and arbitrary as 'English' origins. People have always sung songs which they've liked and changed them, if, say, they thought that they wanted to sing it in English and not in Scots. Music is music, it knows no boundaries.

I had another thought about that Newcastle folk music degree. So, say not one of the graduates performs traditional songs, but they do influence POP MUSIC, which I thought you wanted to be more English.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

I also reject the idea that any parameters can be put around this culture for the future, to protect it from "pollution" or "dilution". Culture very naturally involves interchange, as well as evolution, and like it or not, this is a multicultural country and English culture will continue to absorb other influences. The idea that we can preserve some notion of "Englishness" for now and forever as a static, unchanging thing is pure fantasy. Not that it would be a particularly desirable outcome anyway - even for those of us who love English culture and are keen on its preservation.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

That above site, Ruth, does also mention Child #84 - this is another book source I don't have; and, yes, as such, I've built most of my repertoire from the web/mainly DigiTrad, as well as visits to Newcastle Library, before it's temporary closure/reconstruction...it, is, however, my birhtday in just a couple of months :-)
Howard, I just, e.g., mentioned my awareness of "versions", so it's a tad unfair to say "your notion of exclusivity."

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:28 PM

Child was American, WAV. His big work was called "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads", but it included the American variants as well. And it only contained lyrics. It was the above-mentioned Bronson who pulled together all the different collected tune versions for the Child ballads.

So the fact that your website cites Child does not meant that the song is English. And you don't have a provenance for the tune you've learned, so you have no idea which collected version it's based on.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:58 PM

I just had a little look: Child makes about half a dozen references in the introduction to Barbara Allan to the song being Scottish.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:06 PM

"yes, as such, I've built most of my repertoire from the web/mainly DigiTrad, as well as visits to Newcastle Library"

These are not scholarly nor reliable sources to rely on, the same goes for alot of what's on the internet unless there's backup. You'd do well to find more resources for the songs to choose, if you're going to be so picky about what you sing & play.

Have you come to terms about the 2 shanties I've noted?

Barry

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:30 PM

don't really see the purpose of a degree in traditional music or creative writing (i've done half of one of them) if you spent 3 years playing in sessions in a variety of good pubs in different regions every night -then you'd learn far more than in any classroom. in scotland (plockton?) there is a specialist traditional music secondary school that is turning out hundreds of new musicians from the west of scotland. they are everywhere at the celtic connections festival -glasgow, scotland- there is at least one festival on each island and always plenty of young folk getting into the music, and little sense of anyone slagging off the tradition. finish school at 18 then you're on your own with your instrument and plenty of encouragment to take it further. english tend to laugh at their own musical heritage and the tired, stereotyped image of the sandals/jumper/finger in the ear is still the most likely representation you get. no need for any division between regions/people. recommend a listen to bindhi bagee by the top folk musician in recent years -the late great joe strummer- for something heartfelt, inclusive and joyful.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM

There is every sense in concentrating mainly on one's own tradition.

We accept and admire the African-American striving to determine and adopt "roots" to bolster identity and self worth. Why is it that so many reject the idea that the English could have roots or seek to revisit and preserve them? Why is the objection directed virtually only at the English?

Across America on St Patrick's day millions of American-Irish seek to recapture the spirit of their Irishness, and sing songs that are (truly or in their imagination) Irish. On Burns night Scotsmen throughout the globe celebrate their Scottishness and recite Scotish poetry.

Very frequently one can be reasonably confident of the origins or influences of a song or tune from aspects of its style. Even on this thread commentators accept that collectors could be persuaded of the origins of a song from its musical cadence. Why rubbish those who think they can hear if a song is English?


What is your beef with the English singing (mainly) English songs? Some years ago I realised that I was not a black sharecropper so it made little sense for me to sing the blues. I have never wanted to encourage Irish rebels to kill the English in general or military ones in particular.

Perhaps if it was politically acceptable for there to be systematic study of English folk music we would be able to be more certain of some of the vexed questions of where some folk songs actually did come from.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:38 AM

Indeed, PS, if some of the naysayers aaccepted that ther was actually such a thing a sfolk music we'd be some way on the way! Oh, and 100