English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

indeedio, glueman. Which is the only reason I ever started responding to WAV, as I think it's important to object to folk being hitched to the wagon of racism and little Englander insularity.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

WAV-it's this quote, which you have used many times, and which I still don't understand, that gets you in trouble, "the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law".

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

To CB - I'm C. of E. but, yes, some of my forebears may have practised the Jewish religion; also, my surname is very common in Christianity as the Franks were the first crusaders. We can accept that that a lot of immigration and conquest has gone on but, still, question whether it should go on; and it would be nice to be able to do so without getting the R and B words, again and again - and that's why I have to keep repeating that line, Ruth; you, and others here, don't like people questioning immigration, so you resort to certain tactics to try and stop them. But, as more-and-more adults accept the difference between racism and questioning immigration, it becomes more-and-more difficult for you to do so. (This time/thread we got to around 200 before you resorted to these tactics - I hope it's the last time.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM

WAV,a crusader eh?so is your idea to be a modern day crusader,defeating the muslims with the pen instead of the sword.
all the muslims leave the country,because they cant stand your poetry,very subtle.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

The point is if you belong to a white or British or English or Manchester supremicist organisation is your own business but has Absolutely Nothing to do with folk music and some of us are sick of people using it for nefarious purposes.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM

you, and others here, don't like people questioning immigration, so you resort to certain tactics to try and stop them

OK, off we go. Do you think that non-English immigrants should leave England, WAV?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

WAV says, yet again.
"racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done." - so you say

"you, and others here, don't like people questioning immigration, so you resort to certain tactics to try and stop them" - paranoia strikes deep

We've heard all this before WAV and it's no more true now than it was when you first said it

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:17 PM

Be prepared from a quote from his website, or poetry to answer that Phil. A direct answer might be nice for a change.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM

WAV repeats himself yet again
" as more-and-more adults accept the difference between racism and questioning immigration, it becomes more-and-more difficult for you to do so."

You have no proof at all for this statement, infact I think it's an out-right lie.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Lots of Poles coming over, rural shops regenerated, traditional agriculture revitalised, churches full again, the values of hard work. Bad idea?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

no resorting. No tactics. You are a racist.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

Look at what CB asked me, my frank accurate answer, and then his following "comment", and you see another e.g. of the tactics those who don't like immigration being question resort to.
To Phil: I think immigration should be controlled by the UN, who should help genuine assylum seekers to their nearest safe country - I'm not saying everyone should do as I've done and repatriate.
To Glueman - what do you think, then, about this, pre-distraction post: "just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music."..?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM

OK, WAV. Step into this handy time machine. It's now 2018 and nothing has been done to control (i.e. limit) immigration as you would have wanted. Do you think the non-English immigrants who have arrived here since 2008 should leave England?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:35 PM

WAV once says,I think immigration should be controlled by the UN, who should help genuine assylum seekers to their nearest safe country

Another of WAV's lies

Plain and simple, WAV, you are a racist.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:38 PM

But do answer this question, without dodging or quoting your website. Do you think that non-English immigrants should be repatriated or expelled from England?

Franks, the first Crusaders? EH??

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

I wish this thread was closed.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM

"the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law". WAV, again break that down, tell us what this means. Because from where I stand, that says someone from Gambia, or India, or Trinidad (multiple number of cultures) living in Great Britain (one state law) is somehow wrong. To put it another way, it says, oh I'm all for multiculturism, just not in my back yard, which is another way of saying England for the English only. You are so bent up on your quote of the UN helping genuine asylum seekers (and by the way, since you spelled asylum wrong on your website, and use the same quote again and again, you spell asylum with a double s everytime-a little irritating) that you fail to recognize people who emigrate legally. If I believe what you wrote to be true, someone legally applying for citizenship without any political issues whatsoever should be denied entrance as well? You're the one who wrote this, so you should have the answers. How do you define the nearest safe country. Someone from Mali should be repatriated to Niger? Someone from Haiti should be repatriated to what, the Dominican Republic? Pithy manifestos on a website that you keep quoting from are open to interpretation from all of us, especially when you keep using them again and again, with little or no elaboration.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM

These are gutter tactics - when asked, I said the facts I, and possibly some of you, knew about my surname and suddenly I'm a Crusader; as well as saying some of my forebears may have been Jewish. I just answered that question Volgadon, but you have to ask it again. And to Def Sheperd, you are trying to equate questioning immigration with racism, which most adults now know is NOT the case. Thus, what you just said IS false and defamatory (please note this moderator). And, you have avoided this on-thread issue: "just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music."..what do you think about this?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:55 PM

just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music."..what do you think about this?

Unimportant

you are trying to equate questioning immigration with racism

I know far better than to simply use one issue, reading all you contributions is what leads me to the conclusion that you are racist, and I stand by it

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Skaskinfolkie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:58 PM

..anyone see "This is England" on Film 4 last night.
Brilliant entertaining movie and terrific music soundtrack.

Bit of a shame though,
there was'nt near enough folk music in the country pub scene..

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

Repeated false and defamatory language from Def Sheperd - some of whose details you must have, moderator. And, also, something very much on-thread is "unimportant" according to this person.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

irishenglish - haven't you been paying attention? This is exactly what he thinks. Multiculturalism is about everyone staying in their own countires, and no foreigners being admitted to England. And though he won't admit readily that, in a perfect world, he'd like to see all foreigners curently in England re-patriated, he has said that he regrets all immigration for at least the past 40 years.

But he's not a racist...oh no.

I also like it on other threads when he refers to how "we" settle arguments with words, but "they" settle them with bombs. But he's not making generalisations which could be deemed racist. Course not. Presumably this is because he hasn't said specifically who "they" are. But I'm pretty sure Muslims have been alluded to.

It's a sneaky, mean, cowardly form of racism - but it's racism nonetheless.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

oh - and did I mention xenophobia?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

If students don't want to perform English work it may not be because there's a machinery of oppression. Our islands margins have always maintained tradition more than the industrialised centres, why is that weird?
Someone liking the sound of music and working backwards to its traditions will always have a more rounded view than a force-fed social experiment backed by lottery millions no matter how well intentioned. There are only so many ways I can say there isn't an English music but rather the music of England. It's not that most young people don't know what traditional is, or sounds like but that they reject or ignore it. That doesn't arise from Big Brother sucking their brains out but from living in a different world to the one where folk was the only thing around.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:08 PM

WAV tries to twist my words. "And, also, something very much on-thread is "unimportant" according to this person.
This what I consider unimportant. It might be important if someone without a racist agenda were commenting

but, overall, no-where near enough, English music about this?

It might be important if someone without a racist agenda were commenting

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:13 PM

If you answered already, I apologise, but show me where.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

There's been a trend in modern England, Glueman, that grew strong under New Labour, whereby, rather than just appreciate other cultures, it became cool to practise them, as well, instead of traditional English culture. This trend has not been so strong in Scotland, e.g., hence this statement of fact: I just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

"There's been a trend in modern England, Glueman, that grew strong under New Labour, whereby, rather than just appreciate other cultures, it became cool to practise them, as well, instead of traditional English culture."

evidence please. Credible sources.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM

I'll sing and play Welsh, Scots, Irish and English tunes and songs till the cows come home, it doesn't make me any less English, and I'm not about to cater to a minority of one because he doesn't like it, it just isn't going to happen.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM

Ruth, WAV still won't offer credible sources (if he has them, which I doubt) for his now infamous immigration and racism quote, so don't hold your breath waiting :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:28 PM

That trend has been going on for all of recorded history on the Sceptered Isle, Wav. The ancient Britons emulating the culture of the continent and the Romans, different waves of migrations/invasions emulating the locals and each other, then the continental fashions brought over by the Normans, then the Italian styles in dress, food, music and literature (Chaucer is definitely influenced by Boccacio, for instance), various German fashions, then French, and what can you say about Handel, a German who wrote music in an Italian style? Then in the 17 & 1800s the Orient was very much in vogue, architecture, food, literature, music, dress, then, under the Victorians especially, Everything Highlandish became the in thing.....

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM

Ruth - for your answer, please goto the rest of my post just above your last one.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Skaskinfolkie
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:32 PM

trouble is,
that kind of 'minority' mindset
has a tendency to accuse and [one way or another] threaten
the rest of us ordinary English folk
for being 'traitors to our race'
whenever we publicly disagree
with their extremist agenda.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

Your words are the proof, hardly a creditable source. No, this just won't do, at least provide us with an independent and creditable source to check, for your outrageous and completely bogus claim

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:36 PM

Skaskin, the BNP use exactly the same tactic, calling those who disagree with them traitors, or that other great tactic, they try to silence their opponents. This getting very familiar

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

I've got Michael Palin's New Europe on at the moment, and one Latvian lady, at a traditional gathering, just mentioned all these trad. verses they have for the occasion - but also that people these days are starting to ignore them in favour of just getting drunk. This is but one reason why this issue is important - when people lose their own culture, society suffers (see poem #209, if you want it in shaped verses).

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Wrong on so many levels WAV. Scotland were 'voting in' Labour long after England became a Tory perma-state. I used to dance to Dave and Ansel Collins on a battery record player in the street with people off The Windrush. Not instead, instead was nowhere to be found. We were not throwing hearty accordian players into the canal in favour of Desmond Dekkerand the Aces, they were notable by their absense. As they were from my very rural parents Edwardian upbringing who favoured show tunes and music hall ditties. From what little I know of my grandparents and great-grandparents and beyond, they lied about their age to join the army and get into whatever far flung place relieved them of grinding poverty the soonest.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:48 PM

People getting drunk and forgetting their culture? One TV programme is your source?
The music, in this case, is strong enough to withstand any societal changes, with the exception, perhaps, of censorship. One sort of music and one sort of music only to be played exclusively. Nazi Germany tried that, I believe

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM

WAV, I've seen that program not too long ago. Going on my personal experiences living in Russia, even the drunk bums lying in the gutter have an astounding knowledge of poetry, can recite long verses perfectly, absolutely love and respect them. The problem there is not that people are forgetting their culture, but that they've become too fond of alcohol as a way to solve their problems.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM

I hate imperialism, DS - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

More denial and indifference from WAV. More questions asked but never answered. More referals to his poetry for answers. More of his judgement placed upon a subject he is only recently aware of. More of me saying WAV, answer the questions asked of you, the originator of this thread. Are you going to start another thread based upon one of your bulletpoints from your "website." Do me a favor, and tell me which one is next so I can ask you the questions you will ignore now. Wait, let me guess. Extra colours? Strings? Awards? Ends? Wonts?

By the way, Richard, you're not off the hook for your disgusting comment if you are reading this.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:02 PM

All I said was Nazi Germany tried this (one sort of music only) and I suppose if you state your dislike of imperialism often enough someone might believe you, I won't.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:14 PM

IE - I think I'm very frank on these threads considering what gets done with my frank answers: DS just above, CB, Banjiman, etc. As I say, we got to around 200 this time, before these gutter tactics from a small group of members who cannot stand immigration or loss of culture being questioned in any shape or form. There's what we want, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

You're the only one saying there is a loss of culture, just because not everyone wants to sing "English" folk songs all the time does NOT denote a loss of culture, except in your mind

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:18 PM

...and those "using gutter tactics" are, of course, those who disagree with your stances on "English" folk music and immigration

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:20 PM

All of those you accuse, WAV, love English culture. They simply don't love it to the exclusion of all else.

Your stance on immigration (admitting you regret the immigration of the past 40 years and insisting that no more should take place) make you xenophobic at best, racist at worst. Especially when combined with some of your other views, as mentioned above.

No one need use any "gutter tactics" - we simply question and challenge your beliefs. You're the one who never gives straight answers to straight questions.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

To try to restore the original thread: I happen to know Ali Anderson, Vic Gammon, Sandra Kerr and others resposible for the Newcastle degree course well enough to know that you would be hard put to find a body of people more immersed in English traditional music. They represent diverse geographical areas of England and have been immersed in their culture for many many years. Their policy by and large is that their students are encouraged to develop the skills and traditions from their own native areas, be they Irish, Scottish, Chinese or whatever. I happen also to know some of the graduates of their courses who are deeply immersed in English folk song. Try Dave Hillery who recently graduated using the Yorkshire songs he had collected in the 60s, comparing repertoires with other English counties. Now please can we give this a rest!!!!
This person is not worthy of your attention!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:22 PM

What about my culture, beautiful, nuanced and informed being pinched by grumpy white male pedants with a Merrie Olde England fixation?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:26 PM

Exactly, glueman, exactly

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:32 PM

To Steve: I think it may have been Dave Hillery I heard last year - a very good unaccompanied E. trad singer; and earlier, I mentioned members of The Devil's Interval who did the degree - but I stand by what I've witnessed and said, there is no-where near enough of suchlike..."I just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music." (above). It's true.