English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:15 AM

And, for what it's worth, Stallion, I too offered my support for The Young'uns - but they, sadly, do stand out among young English folkies in their respect for, and desire to perform, their own good English culture. (There are many more young folkies in Scotland, it seems to me, who have the same good attitude - appreciating others but leaning toward their own good culture in practise/performance.)
"WAV wants to limit immigration so as to preserve English culture. In what sense is that not racist?" Phil...that is the questioning of immigration - NOT racism; and even some in New Labour, after a decade of promotion, have recently began to raise questions regarding immigration, diversity, assimilation, etc; do you ever get the news?
I really DO like the world being multicultural, and I question immigration.
"I simply won't have English Trad Arr. used as a vehicle for someone's nationalistic agenda" DS...in Scotland, Scottish folk HAS been linked to Scottish nationalism.
"and why does no one ever mention Welsh?) traditional music then?" Sue...I'm aware of Ty Siamas (on my myspace Top Friens) but not any Welsh folk degree - but, yes, there should be one; I get some Welsh folk music on Saturday night's Celtic Heartbeat, via satellite, and have really enjoyed LISTENING TO it.
"Jerusalem" is NOT trad. - the words are KNOWN to be by Blake, and the tune is KNOWN to be by Parry (whether it is an anthem or a hymn is, rather, debatable).
And, lastly, why should the EFDSS be kept out of an argument for an English folk degree? (And please try to respond/argue/debate/"fight" sensibly, without the gutter tactics from now on.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:27 AM

WAV, you talk about gutter tactic, but you twist people's words, to make it seem like they are agreeing with you and you won't answer straight questions.
Do you like England being multicultural?
One more question. Do you like morris dancing?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

If you go to youtube, there is a nice video of the Young'uns playing 'Pay me my money down'.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

...and another of them doing 'Country Road' by James Taylor.

I'm sure they are just singing the songs they like without letting anything else get in the way. Thats what most of us are doing.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:39 AM

I am glad that the Newcastle degree puts the traditional music of the British Isles into a wider context, while allowing students to specialise in areas of their choice. I believe this will turn out students with a better knowledge of their own traditions and a greater acceptance of others. To quote Kipling, "What do they know of England, who only England know?"

The Irish, Scots and Welsh have their own social and political reasons for concentrating on their own music. However I often find that many of them are closed to other forms of traditional music, which I find regrettable. For me, one of the joys of playing in "English music" sessions is that they will often include tunes from other traditions as well. I prefer this more open-minded attitude and I don't believe I am undermining my own culture in doing so. I also believe it is consistent with traditional practice, since the "old boys" would gladly pick up good songs and tunes from wherever they could.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:09 AM

I think what I've found with sessions is that they are very individual and can vary quite a bit on what might be acceptable. As far as I've heard (I'm afraid I've not got there - I can't travel 20 miles often in a week and "prioritise" according to my musical preferences), you would be more likely to get "told off" for as maybe as a one off inserting something not English in the English session than you would for inserting something not Irish in the Irish session which takes place in the same pub (and I have played a couple of Welsh tunes in that one). Another Irish session I go to is stricter...

Of course, re the tunes, (as I think you noted before?) there is some crossover anyway - some are just played differently.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:10 AM

"FOLK MUSIC: music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic, or regional culture." (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia). And you are ASSUMING, Howard, that the Scots who, like me, lean toward practising/performing their own good culture do not appreciate listening to that of other nations. (See poems 212 and 213, on this, if you like.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

But you are assuming that they don't enjoy playing music that they like, REGARDLESS of where it originated.
Anyway, are you going to answer my two questions, at least answe the morris one.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:15 AM

WAV says: '"Jerusalem" is NOT trad. - the words are KNOWN to be by Blake, and the tune is KNOWN to be by Parry'

This is a spurious argument: just because a song has known origins does not meant it can't be classed as folk music and ultimately thought of as 'traditional'. Sometimes songs or tunes widely thought to be trad. do in fact turn out to have composers when someone bothers to research them more closely.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

What's Philip's Essential Encyclopedia? Never mind - here's the International Folk Music Council's [in]famous 1954 definition of folk music:

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives ... The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community ... The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

In other words, the IFMC defined folk music without saying anything about what it 'expresses' or assuming that the community it derives from corresponds to any identifiable 'national, ethnic or regional culture'. I think they were right.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

"WAV wants to limit immigration so as to preserve English culture. In what sense is that not racist?" Phil...that is the questioning of immigration - NOT racism

My point is that you're questioning immigration on the basis of race. You don't want to keep people out because you're afraid they'll put your local plumber out of a job or put a strain on class size in your local school: you want to keep them out because you're afraid they'll damage English culture. Which means that you only want to keep certain people out - and you define the people you want to keep out on the basis of their not being ancestrally and culturally English. You believe in mono-ethnic, mono-cultural nations - you've actually said so.

Look, if I said I deeply respected gay people but I'd rather not have anything to do with them in my daily life, most people would think I was prejudiced against gays. If I said I deeply respected Jews but I'd much rather they all left this country and emigrated to Israel, most people would suspect me of anti-semitism. And when you say you're not racist but you think different races and cultures shouldn't mix, I think most people here have a similar reaction.

Still no answer to the 'time machine' question: how can you say you want to stop non-English people coming here, then say you've got nothing against the non-English people who are here already?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

And also for information (and I've just posted this on the FOlk vs Folk thread too ... so apologies to anyone who read that first):

Maud Karpeles wrote an article in Ethnomusicology magazine (Vol 1 No9 1957) called "The International Folk Music Council: its aims and activities", in her capacity as Hon. Sec. of the Council. It opens:

The International Folk Music Council , which was founded in London in 1947, is a worldwide organization with a membership drawn from over fifty countries and an Executive Board which is served by members from fourteen countries. Its President is Dr R Vaughan Williams. It is affiliated to Unesco through the International Music Council, of which it is a member.
The Council's aims are (i) to assist in the preservation of folk music (and dance) of all countries; (ii) to further its study; and (iii) to encourage its present day practice.

Following the formulation of the 1954 definition Maud Karpeles also, if memory serves me right wrote, a piece adding various riders to the original … but I'd have to check details at home (am at work at present with no access to academic journals)

The IFMC morphed at a later date - someone with more information than me mentioned this recently on a thread, with reasons why - into the International Council for Traditional Music.

The ICTM stated aims are quite different, it seems:
"The aims of the ICTM are to further the study, practice, documentation, preservation and dissemination of traditional music, including folk, popular, classical and urban music, and dance of all countries."

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM

And I, Phil, think they were right to state "Folk music...can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer" BUT, Sue, it would be wrong to say this of traditional music: when the composer(s) is/are known they should always be credited, and their piece should NOT be called traditional.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM

Granted, WAV ... provided you DO know that a given piece is traditional. The point was you may need to do additional research to find that out, as lots of songs and tunes regarded as 'traditional' aren't.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM

WAV, are you going to answer?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM

And I, Phil,

Got to disagree with you there. I, Phil - you, Walkaboutsverse. But hummus?




(Not gutter tactics, just lunchtime silliness.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:04 AM

Agreed Sue, I thought for a while that "Miner's Lifeguard," e.g., was traditional - until I noticed on DigiTrad "Charles Davies Tillman, words anon."...so whenever someone at a folk club sings this good folk song, they should credit him, or be told of him by the others.
To Volgadon - I did, but either it didn't get through or the Mod. deleted it, perhaps, understandably, for repetitiveness, so please see above.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Oh, the English Folk Degree,
That's the one for me,
Singing ancient ballads
With a milkmaid on my knee.
I've taken all the blood tests
And I'm perfect racially,
I've got the right credentials
For the English Folk Degree.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Where above did you answer my questions? I'll repost them.
Do you like England being multicultural?
One more question. Do you like morris dancing?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Come to think of it, has anybody ever had a post deleted for repetitiveness? WAV must be the first, anyway, he's used that tactic before, pretending he's already said it, hoping you'll grow tired of wading through all the posts.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM

Your versification is okay, I think, Ref. - but we are dealing with culture here NOT race; and, as I put on my myspace header, Volgadon, I believe in "a multicultural WORLD" but question the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law. And, yes, I've enjoyed the sights and sounds of Morris...and you?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:31 AM

WAV, you STILL haven't answered my question. Yes or no first, then you can elaborate. Do you like ENGLAND being multicultural?

I like a lot of morris, not everything, but the point I wanted to make is this. Morris is a classic example of Englishmen playing and dancing something from a different culture!!!!!!! Spanish court dance with Islamic influences.

What does poem #212 have to do with Scots listening to music of other nations?

213   MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi and there is tennis,

    Line is fine but so is Morris,

There is curry and there is the roast,

    And, when England is playing host,

It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

What on earth has tai-chi to do with tennis? It's like saying there is PG Wodehouse and there is that myspace blogger.
Line and moriss, two vastly different dances. Line is probably a lot easier, at least for me. Morris, just like line dancing, was an important too.
There is nothing uniquely English about a roast, that's a very old technique found all over the world. Britain has played a far more important role in developing curry than it has in the roast.
So, what exactly is culture that is English?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,referee
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:32 AM

Do you like morris dancing?
Will you answer Volgadon?
And maybe while you're at it,
Will you tell us what you're on?
You're argument has run it's course,
There's nothing left to say.
Agree to disagree and live
To fight another day.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM

Volgadon - could you please respect the (C) on my poems and NOT post them willy nilly...it's meant to read like this (the italics are lost in the browser).

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:21 AM

14.45 by the old quartz digital, so time for a break & to catch up on the morning's events on Mudcat, and to dare dip a toe into the turbulent waters of this particular thread where everything seems to be quiet enough (for now) despite WAVs ongoing reluctance to actually answer any of the questions being asked of him.

It's a curious thing, WAV, but, having stopped writing poetry, and travelling, presumably, have you also stopped thinking? I don't mean this derogatorily, rather you seem to have done your writing, hung up your knapsack, learnt your 17 folk songs and your 17 hymns, reached your conclusions and now it's just a matter of somehow promoting this life's work. No matter what anyone says here, you continue to quote from your conclusions, repeating the same stuff over and over without ever actually entering into any sort of discussion at all. These are your stock answers, your canon, your absolute rule, against which you dare not transgress, no matter how wrong it can be proven that these rules are. You persist in this wilful ignorance (how else can I describe it?) despite anything you are told - your bit on fiddles for example, or English Instruments - a little tweaking here and there, as with the poetry, but otherwise, nothing changes. You might have written it in stone.

I'm just observing here, not criticising, out of a genuine curiosity, trying to get the measure of the frustration you seem to engender whenever you open a thread, as well as trying to understand why you approach things the way you do, in the hope that maybe others might come to understand this too, and perhaps avoid the sort hysterical hullabaloo than usually transpires when you opens a thread.

As for your racism, you have a stock answer for that too, derived from a far milder interpretation of racism (as mere ethnic stereotyping) than anyone here would understand it, and so you respond accordingly, thinking, no doubt that all is well. But England is very sick rose indeed, WAV; racism is the invisible worm that flies in the night in the howling storm, its dark secret love does our life destroy. This sickness is endemic, it infects and effects us all, it effects society by infecting individuals, it effects individuals by infecting society; it bites at the core of humanity, reason, and love, and tolerance, and thus the invisible worm flies on, and on, and on, and the only cure, alas, is outing it wheresoever we find it, in the oft vain hope that enlightenment will, at last, prevail. Seldom, however, is it ever so simple...

I often wonder why you have chosen to settle in Newcastle-upon-Tyne rather than Manchester, the place of your birth; why in your love of a multi-cultural world you wilfully avoid the multi-cultural regionalism which divides England just as much as the nominal borders with Scotland and Wales. If I consider this in relationship to the above, and on the evidence of your attitude thus far on these threads, then the answer might seem clear enough. If we go to the website of The Commision for Racial Equality we find that in Newcastle the diversity index score is 0.18, with 93.1% of the population being white, whereas in Manchester (England's third most ethnically diverse city) it is 0.44, with only 80.9% of the population being white. The North-East is England's least ethically diverse region in England, and whilst Newcastle is the most ethically diverse city in the region only three ethnic minority sub-groups - Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Chinese - are statistically better represented here than the national average. It's a good site, WAV - I advise you strongly to add it to your favourites.

Meanwhile, I'm off for a sarnie - Laughing Cow and some of that boiled calf's head left over off last night's authentic Victorian repast.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:41 AM

If I am repeatedly asked the same questions, and if I do always tend to be frank/open in my answers, then, Sedayne, those answers are going to be similar. May I ask a question of you - do you accept that there is a difference between questioning immigration/the multicultural state and being racist. I.e: someone who does question immigration may OR MAY NOT be racist. God knows how many times, in prose and verse, I've tried to explain this.
In Manchester, all the manufacturing companies I knew of, within range of public transport, already knew I was looking for work, so I spent a weekend looking around the NE, and liked Newcastle in particular...I've done a couple of temporary contracts but it has not worked out so well - however, I still like it here, okay? You can even hear me sing about this on myspace, if you wish - Tees to Tyne: first impressions.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM

If I am repeatedly asked the same questions, and if I do always tend to be frank/open in my answers, then, Sedayne, those answers are going to be similar.

I think I've spotted a flaw in this argument. (No answer yet to the "time machine" question.)

someone who does question immigration may OR MAY NOT be racist

I agree. However, someone who questions immigration on racial grounds is racist; the same goes for anyone who advocates a mono-racial society. "we are dealing with culture here NOT race" - so what questions are you going to ask at the airport, to decide who gets let in? Can they sing "Greensleeves"? That's most of the English population out...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM

Ah but WAV, several of us have asked you many different questions, to which you avoid the answer, instead giving us your verbatim prose or statements from your "website", sometimes with the same words spelled incorrectly, because you cut and paste from your website again and again. Now's my chance to do the same. WAV,you are "Starting to sound like a broken record....er." Another one I asked you yesterday, and which Sedayne alluded to as well. OK, you have your beliefs, you start a thread here on mudcat. People disagree with you, you quote from your prose. People disagree more with you, you quote from your prose. People start accusing you of serious things, you quote from your prose. No explanations, no elaboration, no agreement, no disagreement, you just quote from your prose. Why on earth if people were accusing you of something as serious as racism, would you choose to repeat, again, and again your prose as an answer. Wouldn't you want to take the time and give a thoughtfully worded answer, maybe even an apology, for words that you feel are antagonistic towards you? Instead....more prose. In fact, I'm waiting for that as your answer to me, that's if I get an answer from you.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:23 AM

As it's hard for you to answer questions in a straightforward fashion, I am going to make some statements, WAV. You just tell us whether you agree or disagree with them:

Although it is impractical, in a perfect world you would really like it if all immigrants currently living in England were to return to their country of origin.

You dislike immigration to England because it pollutes/dilutes English culture.

You like other cultures, so long as they stay in their own countries.

You want English people to practise English culture, and would not like people who come from other places pracising that culture - they should stick to their own traditions.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM

WAV, don't be silly. Did I claim it wasn't yours? I don't see how I disrespected your copyright. It's your own website to blame, as I C&Ped straight from it.

Absolutely no comment about morris dancing being an import?

WAV, are all the songs you sing from the Manchester area?

Do you like ENGLAND being multicultural?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM

In the real world people hold all kinds of beliefs others find unattractive or even criminal. In factories I've heard toe curling opinions that would get you a knock on the door if you expressed them in public. None of that bears on this issue WAV - you can believe what you like.
What cheeses me right off is the tradition being a carrier signal for those kinds of views, being guilty by association, which it certainly is. If you want a debate on the difference between immigration and asylum, or whether the cultural balance of the country has been changed for the worse have them openly. Your lack of clear answers or the belief you've written the last word on the subject to be cut and pasted to the confused confirms everyone's suspicions that you're on a mission - and not just one to collect folk songs.

I hate witch hunts too but I dislike zealotry in a nice hat. Englishness, like folk, is a loaded term these days. I just want to be sure we're talking about the same thing.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

Here's a bit of potry to counter the xenophobic drivel (and doggerel):

My mother was half English and I'm half English too
I'm a great big bundle of culture tied up in the red white and blue
I'm a fine example of your Essex man
And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan
Cos my neighbours are half English and I'm half English too

My breakfast was half English and so am I you know
I had a plate of Marmite soldiers washed down with a cappuccino
And I have a veggie curry about once a week
The next day I fry it up as bubble and squeak
Cos my appetites half English and I'm half English too

Dance with me to this very English melody
From morris dancing to Morrissey,
all that stuff came from across the sea

Britannia, she's half English, she speaks Latin at home
St George was born in the Lebanon, how he got here I don't know
And those three lions on your shirt,
They never sprang from England's dirt
Them lions are half English and I'm half English too

Le-li Umma le-li-ya, le-li Umma le-li-ya,
Le-li Umma le-li-ya, bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya

Oh my country, what a beautiful country you are

- Billy Bragg

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

OOOH Volgadon, I think you hit the space bar between his lines of prose, tsk, tsk! Oh, and you didn't use capital letters for a few words. Oh the horror!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

My comment about Scots and Irish tending to be more narrowly focussed on their own music was simply based on my observations of playing in many sessions throughout the UK over many years. On the whole, I have found that musicians in Scottish and Irish sessions have tended to be less accepting of tunes from other cultures than have musicians in "English" sessions.

Of course, every session is different and not all are like that. I certainly wouldn't claim that all Scots and Irish musicians are like that. But I think they do tend to be narrowly focussed on their own traditions and this is sometimes to the exclusion of other influences. WAV will think this a good thing. I disagree.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

Ruth, thanks for the Bragg song.
Now for something truly British:

You know, it's a curious thing, I don't know if you've ever thought of this, but England hasn't really got a national song, you know, just for England; there's plenty for Great Britain. That's quite different. You have to be very careful how you use these terms, too. The rule is: if we've done anything good, it's "another triumph for Great Britain" and if we haven't, it's "England loses again". Have you noticed that?
All the others, they've got songs about their countries, you know, the Scots, like "Scotland for aye" (or for "me" as it should more properly be). And the Welsh and the Irish have got songs saying how marvelous they are and making rude remarks about the English in their own languages. In the case of the Welsh I think this is the pot calling the saucepan "bach".
What English national song have we got? "Jerusalem" . . . "There'll always be an England". Well, that's not saying much, is it? I mean, there'll always be a North Pole, if some dangerous clown doesn't go and melt it.
I think that the reason for this is that in the old days - you know, the good old days when I was a boy - people didn't, we didn't bother in England about nationalism. I mean, nationalism was on its way out. We'd got pretty well everything we wanted and we didn't go around saying how marvelous we were - everybody knew that - any more than we bothered to put our names on our stamps. I mean, there's only two kinds of stamps: English stamps in sets at the beginning of the album, and foreign stamps all mixed at the other end. Any gibbon could tell you that.
But nowadays nationalism is on the up and up and everybody has a national song but us. The Americans have national songs, like "My country 'tis of thee", which they sing to the tune of "God save the Queen", I may say, and which together with their long range forecasting of our weather I find hard to forgive. Yes, and the Germans - and whatever you say about the Germans (and who doesn't) - what a marvelous song that was: "German, German overalls". Now there's a song.
Well, the moment has come, and none too soon; we have a song here which, I think, fills this long-felt want and I hope that all true-born English men and women in our audience will join in the last chorus. And if you don't have the good fortune to be English true-born, or a man, or a woman, I hope you'll join in as an ordinary mark of simple decent respect. This song starts with, I think, a very typical English understatement.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker, as likely as not.

Och aye, awa' wi' yon Edinburgh Festival

The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

Ah hit me old mother over the head with a shillelagh

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price

Ah, iechyd da

The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!

The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.

And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.

It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!

For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael)
Donald (Michael) and Me!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:24 PM

WAV, a piece can be both composed and traditional. Provided it has been adopted into the oral tradition and adapted by it, it becomes traditional. The fact that we may know the identity of the original composer doesn't alter that. However where a piece is adopted without being changed, then it is not traditional.

All music was composed by someone, it is pure chance whether or not we know their identity. Some pieces have been passed on through the oral tradition for hundreds of years. If some diligent researcher now turns up the original composer, does that make them any less traditional? I don't think so.

Subject: Lyr Add: FINLAND (Monty Python)
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM

Volgadon, sorry, but based on that, I just couldn't resist this bit of Monty Python,


Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I want to be
Pony trekking or camping
Or just watching TV
Finland, Finland, Finland
It's the country for me

You're so near to Russia
So far from Japan
Quite a long way from Cairo
Lots of miles from Vietnam

Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I want to be
Eating breakfast or dinner
Or snack lunch in the hall
Finland, Finland, Finland
Finland has it all

You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored
A poor second to Belgium
When going abroad

Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I quite want to be
Your mountains so lofty
Your treetops so tall
Finland, Finland, Finland
Finland has it all

Finland, Finland, Finland
The country where I quite want to be
Your mountains so lofty
Your treetops so tall
Finland, Finland, Finland
Finland has it all

Finland has it all

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

do you accept that there is a difference between questioning immigration/the multicultural state and being racist. I.e: someone who does question immigration may OR MAY NOT be racist

Of course I bloody don't; no one in their right minds would. The questioning of immigration and the multi-cultural state is racist by default otherwise it just wouldn't be an issue, as, in truth, it isn't with most people who understand the cultural & economic realities of modern England & embrace the consequent ethnic diversity - sorry: multi-culturalism. If you weren't racist, you'd make bloody sure there was no such ambiguity in your published philosophy. Not only does such ambiguity exist, however, it is outed on every thread & forum you turn up on.    People who struggle against racism do not do so by opposing immigraton & ethnic diversity (sorry - multi-culturalism); and they certainly do not throw out such overtly racist rhetoric as:

English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

Apart from anything else, in no way, shape or form is English culture taking a hammering; no one is losing anything & the only sickness in society is racism & its divisive consequences. Try applying some of that anthropological methodology to your understanding of English society; you've only lived here eleven years for Christ's sake - I've lived here all my life and every day I'm finding out something new.

To conclude, having a philosophy of life is all very well, but when that philosophy is so obviously at odds with every aspect of reality it purports to deal with, then why bother with it at all? What gives you the impression that anyone else is bothered? Do I detect a subversive subtext? A man with a mission? Or just a misanthropic malcontent who likes to piss people off to get a reaction? I find it odd that there's none of this in your public persona, WAV - Aussie Dave, the affable cove with his carefully mannered taciturn approach to folk clubs and singarounds, who would never dare question that Jewish-Irish-Northumbrian guy for daring to sing a traditional Scottish ballad to an American tune whilst accompanying himself on an antique Hungarian zither.

There, I have been frank & open with you. Please do likewise, WAV - with no quotes from your already published prose & verse.

I'm off out now to Manchester, back in the morning.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM

Sedayne

What gives you the impression that anyone else is bothered?

Quite a few people seem to be very bothered indeed. Don't respond, it only encourages him.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

"The questioning of immigration and the multi-cultural state is racist by default otherwise it just wouldn't be an issue"

Eh? I'm not aware of any country in the world that doesn't have an immigration policy, i.e. a policy that restricts immigration in one form or another. As an example, the current debate regarding immigrants from Eastern Europe is of great import and is, above all, a socio-economic issue. I would like to think that most of us are aware that this particular wave of immigration has brought us both benefits and problems. Our government is, therefore, questioning immigration levels at the moment. It would be irresponsible of them not to.

We should be getting back to the subject of the thread, or is it that the thread has now exhausted itself and we are just the few last drunks, who just can't bear to go home, left arguing in the pub after closing time?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:16 PM

With apologies to Fairport Convention, Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick:

Walkabout, Walkabout
Walkabout with me
The more we walkabout together love
The lesser we'll agree, we'll agree....

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:19 PM

Melodeonboy, some of us would love to keep going, but the originator of the thread is not very good at answering direct questions put to him, even before it detiorated into something else.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:21 PM

I'm sure it could all be settled over a nice cup of tea.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

WAV once more tries to convince us that his godawful poetry and prose are reliable sources, they're not.

and, "And, lastly, why should the EFDSS be kept out of an argument for an English folk degree? (And please try to respond/argue/debate/"fight" sensibly, without the gutter tactics from now on.) "

First off, don't try and dictate the direction of this thread, you are far from qualified for that, and I'll repeat again, it's only "gutter tactics" when someone disagrees with you

Regarding the EFDSS, as Ruth Archer has said, the EFDSS is an inclusive organisation, you, however are not an inclusive person, as has been proved by your many, many, many ad infinitum, ad nauseum, posts. The EFDSS doesn't need now, nor will it ever need, the likes of you and others like you hanging around its environs.

Leave the EFDSS alone.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

England hasn't really got a national song, you know, just for England; there's plenty for Great Britain.

England marched forward, happily being GB. It's not quite the same with the other countries whose traditions I suspect were helped by not wanting to be British(English).


The rule is: if we've done anything good, it's "another triumph for Great Britain" and if we haven't, it's "England loses again". Have you noticed that?

No.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

:-D irishenglish

One foot in your mouth'
the other close behind
the BNP bows its head
as you go walking by...

sorry.. :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:30 PM

Jon, that was a very tongue-in-cheek intro by Flanders and Swann to their "A Song of Patriotic Prejudice".

TheSnail, TEA???? Appalling, another instance of Englishmen not practising their own culture, but someone else's....

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:44 PM

Tea, of course, is not an English crop is it? Nicked by the imperialists from India and the other places the British trampled all over.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

OK, sorry.

Oddly enough (but sort of triggered by this thread), I was looking at the words to that this morning. I didn't know of the intro.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

Well, I don't think WAV would quite "get" the satire of Song Of Patriotic Prejudice