English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:19 PM

So you wouldn't use the word "worse" like me, DS - but do you agree on those percentages? Another e.g: compare the content of the BBC's Hogmanay from Scotland, with Hootenanny from England.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:35 PM

WAV, it might be reasonable to suggest that compared to Irish or Scottish, English music is poorly supported amongst the general population. There may be a case for a degree in English folk music, I don't know...

I disagree with your lines of argument though. I do not go along with Scotland and Ireland have degree courses in their national music therefore a course in England MUST be in English folk music. You have already had my views regarding your comments on what people SHOULD be practicing/playing...

Surely the way forward should be to try to get the music out to more of the general population and to encourage hearing what is good in it? I suspect if that was achieved, some of what you appear to want would follow naturally.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:43 PM

I think I just said, I enjoy the music, where it comes from is immaterial. That means don't care about your unproveable percentages (once more you have no figures to back up your rather dubious claims)

Why would I want to compare anything, it means nothing, which brings me full circle to, I enjoy the music, where it comes from is immaterial. End of conversation

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:45 PM

"Surely the way forward should be to try to get the music out to more of the general population and to encourage hearing what is good in it?" Jon...Some of what goes on at the festivals of Durham and Northumberland are good in that way - e.g., performing local pieces out among shoppers, park-walkers, etc., as well as indoors. But, I stand by what I said, those who turned up for the free final-recitals at The Sage, did NOT get a good enough taste of English folk, and I hope for improvement.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

WAV once more says (variations on a theme)did NOT get a good enough taste of English folk, and I hope for improvement.

Well sorry, dearie, the world doesn't revolve around you, so keep hoping

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:01 PM

But, I stand by what I said, those who turned up for the free final-recitals at The Sage, did NOT get a good enough taste of English folk, and I hope for improvement.

I trust you called all concerned into your office and gave them a good bollocking.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:03 PM

Would that be 4/10, please show some improvement next time? :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM

I repeat, the quality/musicianship was fine; the selection was not - in my opinion.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM

Should we all go and stand in the corner(s) for not agreeing with you?
AND you said nothing about the quality/musicianship

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

The problem is that WAV has a very clear idea what he wants us to do, but is inconsistent in his own approach:

1) WAV wants all us English musicians to play and sing only "English" songs and tunes, and has a very narrow view of what is "English". Unfortunately, his research into the songs he performs himself is not sufficiently rigourous, and we have pointed out a number of examples in his repertoire which may be of non-English origin.

For example, it seems possible that "Barbara Allen" may be Scottish. If this is the case, it is fortunate that earlier generations of singers did not share WAV's approach, since we would not now have English versions of this, including the one that WAV sings

2) He is critical of a Newcastle degree student performing his own compositions, but is happy to perform composed songs from earlier times himself

3) He is critical of those who chose to play guitar rather than an "authentic" English instrument such as cittern, but he himself plays recorder. The recorder was once popular in England, although probably for playing composed art music, but it fell out of fashion by the 18th century. So far as I am aware, it does not feature to any great extent in the English folk tradition, particularly in more recent times; however, as a recorder player myself, I would be interested to be proved wrong, if anyone can give examples of traditional recorder players.

4) He is critical of English performers who do non-English material as it is a wasted opportunity to perform "good English traditional folk songs". However a substantial portion of his repertoire is hymns from "Hymns Ancient and Modern" most of which are relatively recent compositions - surely this is a wasted opportunity to perform good English traditional folk hymns?

Of course, I disagree with his basic premise, on which all this is founded, that "Folk music IS meant to be local/regional/national" Here he is guilty of imposing his own preconceptions and prejudices. Folk music isn't "meant" to be anything - it exists, it still survives, and it is up to us to do what we can with it. For WAV, that means pursuing his own narrow, and in my opinion ultimately sterile path, which would be fine if he wasn't so convinced that the rest of us should do the same. Most of us approach it with more open minds and take it at its face value.

Many folk songs and tunes transcend national boundaries and are found throughout Britain, and beyond. They are adapted and made local, but in many cases you cannot say that this is English or Irish or Scottish.

A good song or tune is a good song or tune. If it means something to you, then perform it. If it's English, fine, if not it doesn't diminish your Englishness and nor does it damage English culture. There is plenty of English music being played.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

Excellent post Howard, I would add that WAV also considers self penned tunes, or at least Kathryn Tickell's to be English tunes the minute they become recorded somehow. Could I just ask, in regards to WAV's notion of English instruments, where recorders are made these days?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:57 PM

The recorder itself may not be an English instrument, the earliest recorder, as we know it, is 14th century one, found in a castle moat in Dordrecht, the Netherlands in 1940, It is largely intact, though not playable. A second more or less intact 14th century recorder was found in a latrine in northern Germany (in Göttingen): other 14th-century examples survive from Esslingen (Germany) and Tartu (Estonia). There is a fragment of a possible 14th-15th-century bone recorder in Rhodes (Greece); and there is an intact 15th-century example from Elblag (Poland). Having said that, no one really knows where the recorder originated, so.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

We don't know who invented the recorder; we do know that for centuries it has been also been known as the English flute; and we do know that it was mainly English and Germans who brought it back as a folk/students' instrument in the early 20th century. Hence, I included it as one of my INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND (some may recall another thread called England's National Instrument? that went on a while, before and after Sedayne found that Wiki. has it as the bell - I'm now a tad tempted by the bell lyre, by the way).
And (HR, point 2) nothing against an Englishman performing his own repertoire, of course, but, fair play, a 4 year trad. music degree, and not one E. trad. at the end of it!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Where's your recorder made WAV?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:09 PM

I doy yav a problem with his English. :-D

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:11 PM

I repeat We don't know who invented the recorder, all else is a sad attemt at making it sound as if the recorder is indeed English.

a 4 year trad. music degree, and not one E. trad. at the end of it!
So?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

If your only criterion for performing a song or tune is whether you like it that reduces folk music (or other the form of music of your choice) to mere entertainment. It reduces "traditional" "folk" music to nothing more than a stylistic choice.

It could also lead you to some interesting technical challenges!

Incidentally, I also believe that traditional fruit and vegetable and floral varieties ought to be preserved, and it pretty well goes without saying that the narrowing of the animal gene pool carries serious risks.

In that context, whether or not there is a traditional music degree (compare "a modern languages degree") there ought to be an "English folk music" degree course for otherwise the English tradition is not as fully researched or understood - and indeed possibly not as widely performed, so that it is at risk of loss.

Whether or not you like Comhaltas it has played (it seems) a valuable part in getting Irish traditional music widely performed and accepted. A degree in English folk traditions would be one good way to seek to do the same for England.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:33 PM

"4) He is critical of English performers who do non-English material as it is a wasted opportunity to perform "good English traditional folk songs". However a substantial portion of his repertoire is hymns from "Hymns Ancient and Modern" most of which are relatively recent compositions - surely this is a wasted opportunity to perform good English traditional folk hymns?"

Indeed, The English Hymnal, edited by Vaughan Williams, was a reaction against Hymns Ancient and Modern. It was thought that a new hymnal was needed which was more egalitarian in its approach to singing, and VW deliberately utilised folk tunes throughout.

If someone wanted to play music from the traditional repertoire, they'd use The English Hymnal every time.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

"We don't know who invented the recorder; we do know that for centuries it has been also been known as the English flute"

I don't think we know any such thing. Here's what some bloke on that Internet says:

The true recorder only came into extensive use around 1500. With its versatility and wide, chromatic range, it quickly established itself as the "polite" whistle, for use by professionals and courtiers, whereas the old type of whistle was regarded as a country instrument fit only for shepherds. Henry VIII had a particular affection for recorders ... By Elizabeth I's reign, fashion had changed, and the flute was more popular. The new operas, which arose around 1600, used both. The recorder was particularly associated with pastoral subjects - nymphs, shepherds and so on. The flute was the more "mainstream"orchestral instrument. This continued until the mid to late seventeenth century, when the recorder once more came into vogue as a concert instrument in England - so much so that the "English Flute", or just "Flute" in England, was the recorder, and the cross-blown version was known as the "German Flute". During the first half of the eighteenth century, the German flute grew in popularity, and gradually displaced the English Flute. By 1800 the recorder had virtually disappeared from the professional scene.

So that's

1500ish: recorder appears
1600ish: recorder unfashionable
Mid- to late 1600s: recorder back in fashion; known as 'English Flute'
Mid- to late 1700s: recorder unfashionable again
1800ish: recorder disappears

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

If your only criterion for performing a song or tune is whether you like it that reduces folk music (or other the form of music of your choice) to mere entertainment.

That's not what I said. (Word to the wise: quoting people is quite easy - see above - and it makes it a lot easier for everyone else to see who and what you're responding to.) I sing the songs I do because I love them, because I think I can do justice to them and because I want other people to hear them - there's a bit more to it than 'whether you like it'.

What I did say - apologies for the repetition, but I don't want to rephrase it for the sake of it - was:

I am not Bob Copper or Shirley Collins; in musical terms, "the tradition from which I come" means precisely nothing. I sing traditional material because I like it, just like WAV. I get the material I sing from books and records and from the Net, just like WAV. Neither of us is doing anything to perpetuate "the tradition from which [we] come", because at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist.

"Because I like it" is counterposed to your notion of singing to perpetuate your tradition, which you seem to think has something in common with WAV's truculent defence of the 'English'. There are still a few people out there - even in England - for whom the words "your tradition" means something real and definite, but I'm not one of them and neither is WAV.

Incidentally, I also believe that traditional fruit and vegetable and floral varieties ought to be preserved, and it pretty well goes without saying that the narrowing of the animal gene pool carries serious risks.

I agree entirely, although I'm not sure how it's relevant.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

"If your only criterion for performing a song or tune is whether you like it that reduces folk music (or other the form of music of your choice) to mere entertainment." (Richard Bridge)

But folk music always was entertainment. The role of the traditional musician was to provide songs and tunes to entertain his community. Why do you dismiss it as "mere" entertainment? If its not entertaining then it becomes a sterile academic exercise. Entertainment doesn't have to mean frivolous.

Performers who earn their living from it may have to tailor their repertoire to the tastes of their audience. For the rest of us, why perform something if you don't like it? For me, a song or tune has to touch me in some way. Regardless of its provenance, if it doesn't do that then I won't learn it.

As for stylistic choice, it is style rather than content which for me defines national music. A tune such as "Flowers of Edinburgh" is found throughout the British Isles, but the proverbial Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman will all play it differently, with distinctive regional styles (which extends to the way variations creep in as well as playing style). A visiting American will play it differently again. It is the style which distinguishes one version from another of what is essentially the same tune.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

WAV, I knew you would quote the term "English flute" for recorder, but so what? The name is immaterial. Where is the evidence for it being used in traditional music?

It seems likely there were some examples, after all musicians would play whatever instruments they had available, and most instruments will have been used for folk music at some point. The question is, did the recorder play a significant role in English folk music? I'm not aware that it did, but if you (or anyone else) can provide evidence to show otherwise then I'll gladly alter my view.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:10 PM

Howard Jones said, But folk music always was entertainment. The role of the traditional musician was to provide songs and tunes to entertain his community. Why do you dismiss it as "mere" entertainment? If its not entertaining then it becomes a sterile academic exercise.

It's why it's called FOLK music and NOT Academae Music. From the folks to be performed by the folks

Index of The English Hymnal, 1906, 1933

Index of The New English Hymnal, 1986

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:30 PM

WAV,
You have somehow managed to animate a relatively large number of seemingly intelligent people to respond to your eccentricities. How very English this is.

Perhaps you would like to identify your repertoire of songs and your sources and let them proceed to rip this apart more fully. This I would enjoy more than the repetition which is now getting boring.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM

Reading this thread ,I thought I might have died and gone to hell.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:32 AM

The Naked City has a million stories, this was only one of them......

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:51 AM

To Steve (suddenly I'm an English eccentric, and not a "nuturalised Australian" - Sedayne): my repertoire of English hymns and E. trads is here (I accept that it is not a perfectly/purely/exclusively English collection - but it's good that I've leaned that way. I also say at the same place that there are more than enough good English tunes and songs for anyone's lifetime - so why not practise/perform/ENTERTAIN WITH our own, whilst appreciating the music of other nations, and helping keep our world nice and multicultural.
"If someone wanted to play music from the traditional repertoire, they'd use The English Hymnal every time." Ruth...I'm not into just English traditional music, and, thus, I've selected from both TEH and HAAM. (There's also a list of English dances, e.g., on my above site.)
To Richard and Phil: for quite a while I argued on the BBC (which should dissolve into the EBC, WBC, SBC, and IBC, in my opinion) Gardening Forum for native gardening, for similar reasons as you mention (I've summarised this argument in a myspace blog called GREEN GODLY GARDENING.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:44 AM

To Richard and Phil:

Who, me? Thanks for noticing.

why not practise/perform/ENTERTAIN WITH our own

Because they're not "our own" in any meaningful sense, as I explained at some length in an earlier comment. To paraphrase myself slightly, there are still a few people out there - even in England - for whom the words "our music" mean something real and definite, but I'm not one of them and neither are you.

I'm not into just English traditional music

So you go into a forum full of people who care deeply about traditional music but mostly don't care particularly about whether it's got the English label on it - and you tell us that what we should care about it not whether it's traditional but whether it's English. And when we disagree, you tell us again.

No accounting for tastes, I suppose.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

"I sing traditional material because I like it". There's your quote. 'Nuff said.

I didn't say that folk music should not be entertaining. If you don't know the difference between that and being mere entertainment you need to think a little more. Indeed that would be one reason why a degree with a performance element is more apt than one that is purely historical.

It does represent the continuation (and evolution and adaptation) of a tradition. That is not contradicted by the fact that many of us maybe exposed to a range of traditions.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:20 AM

IBC? RTE might have something to say about that, as well as the rest of Ireland. I'm quite certain that these words by Dr. Reg Hall have been used on Mudcat before, but I feel they bear repeating for WAV's ears. This, coming from the introductory notes to The Voice Of The People, a collection you should be looking at WAV, in all seriousness. Not strictly English of course, but arguably heavily balanced in that direction. The quote:

Any attempt to describe, let alone define, traditional music and dance is inevitably loaded with paradoxes and contradictions. To start with it there is no popular or even academic consensus about what they include and exclude. Having long existed and cross bred with popular culture, the boundaries between the tradition and popular culture are blurred, and it can be argued there is value in keeping them blurred.

Now WAV, can you tell me out of curiousity, where your recorder is made?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:29 AM

so why not practise/perform/ENTERTAIN WITH our own

But who are are own? As well as not feeling specially "English", I've no musical links back to any traditional playing or singing and I see no reason to feel or think the people I go out to play Irish music with are any less "our own" than I might a group of English players.

If anything, for me, I'd say they feel more "my own" as that is the music for whatever reasons along the line and in our individual "musical journeys" I think most of us who go have found that bit more special.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:10 AM

"I sing traditional material because I like it". There's your quote. 'Nuff said.

No, Richard, not enough said. Here's my quote (apologies to everyone else for this second repetition):

I sing traditional material because I like it, just like WAV. I get the material I sing from books and records and from the Net, just like WAV. Neither of us is doing anything to perpetuate "the tradition from which [we] come", because at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist.

We could have a discussion about just how much I "like" traditional material - I can change it to "love" if you like - but that's a separate issue. My point is that I wasn't born or raised in any musical tradition. If you're one of those people whose inherited culture includes traditional songs and tunes, that's great: I'm pleased to make your acquaintance and we must have a chat about song variants some time. But I know I'm not one of those people, I'm pretty sure WAV isn't and I suspect most people reading this aren't either.

We're not bearers of the tradition in any meaningful sense. We've ended up listening to and performing traditional material for a whole variety of reasons, but surely the most important is that we like the music. Against that background, to draw a line that excludes non-English material and then claim that everything inside the line is "English culture", which we English people should preserve, is a bit pathetic.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

By way of a postscript, I do think there's such a thing as "English culture", but my definition of English culture includes Irish sessions, gospel choirs and C&W clubs: it's based on what English people actually do, in other words. And I do care deeply about English traditional songs and tunes, and I'd be very sorry if they ceased to be a part of English culture.

But nobody here is perpetuating their tradition or defending the English heritage; we're doing something we find enjoyable, fulfilling and valuable, because we find it enjoyable, fulfilling and valuable. That's my biggest problem with WAV's pathetic anathemata, in fact - it's all so joyless. Stop trying to stamp out other people's fun, WAV - have some fun of your own.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:45 AM

"WAV - have some fun of your own." Phil...goto the "FOLK Image and Presentation thread," Phil, and check out my unions/onions. Or...

Poem 14 of 230: NIGHT OR DAY?!

In the far north of Sweden,
    A "Land of the Midnight Sun,"
A strange thing chanced upon me -
    And I'll tell you, just for fun.

Got off a train late-morning
    (Had to catch same one next day)
And trudged far to the Youth Hostel -
    Paying for a one-night stay.

I spent the afternoon sightseeing,
    Then, after a latish dinner,
Returned to my own small bedroom -
    The comfy bed proving a winner.

For I soon dozed into dreamy sleep -
    Waking what was just two hours hence;
But my watch was an analogue,
    And night or day I couldn't sense!

I quickly packed all my things
    (My train an hour or thirteen on)
And hurried out the bedroom -
    The bright sky a sneaky con.

I wandered down the track a bit
    (The Hostel office empty),
Before a smiling helpful local
    Did kindly enlighten me.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Deeps
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

"For I soon dozed into dreamy sleep..."

Yeah, me too.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

Phil, I disagree with you that "at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist". The tradition does continue, but in a relatively few places - some East Anglian pubs, the Sheffield carols, Padstow and Minehead May Day, to name but a few. The tradition exists, albeit in a much reduced form.

However I do agree with you that we're not bearers of the tradition in any meaningful sense. We've picked it up, mostly at second or third hand, and carried it on in a way, but the context is inevitably different.

While I'm proud that it's part of my English heritage, it's not the only part, nor is English music the only part of my musical experience. It's on that issue that I disagree with WAV. I don't play English music to make a point, I play it because I enjoy it.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Howard - fair point, I was exaggerating a bit.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:36 AM

Still a fair point Phil. After the horror of stripping the willow for a Lynn Truss-alike teacher at infant school my next exposure was a girlfriend who visited her village pub's folk club. Even then '74ish with me a daft 17 year old, I could see the songs had more to do with The Graduate than the tradition. It's not a recent phenomenon. From then on it was what folk John Peel happened to play triggering explorations into scary shops.
That's my tradition. Fairly typical I bet.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:44 AM

This from my Myspace blog:

We lovers of traditional song are not so much the keepers of a tradition, rather the volunteer curators of a museum, entrusted with the preservation of a few precious, priceless and irreplaceable artefacts (...) and hoary cases of singular taxidermy wherein beasts long extinct are depicted in a natural habitat long since vanished.

Not only is such a museum a beacon for the naturally curious, it's a treasure in and of itself, an anachronism in age of instant (and invariable soulless) gratification, and as such under constant threat by those who want to see it revamped; cleaned up with computerised displays and interactive exhibits and brought into line with the rest of commodified cultural presently on offer.

But not only is this museum our collective Pit-Rivers, it is a museum which, in itself, is just as much an artefact of a long-vanished era as the objects it contains. It is delicate, and crumbling, but those who truly love it wouldn't have it any other way ...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:43 AM

Where you learn you material is no longer the point. Those of us who sing folk songs are folksong singers, not folk singers. But at risk of sounding like Barry Goldwater, there are things that make you you, other than what you saw on telly last night. They include (without limitation) the unspoken conditioning from your parents, the things that are hardwired in your genes, and the cultures you were brought up in and absorbed before you were a fully thinking being.

As they say around Gravesend, you can take the boy out of Denton, but you can't take the Denton out of a boy.

Those are YOUR traditions. We all have such traditions. In some they are more mixed, in others, less mixed.

Going to live in Australia when I was 3 (for 3 years) did not make me Australian. Doing a "stage" in Alsace did not make me French. A cuckoo does not become a tit because it hatches in a tit's nest. No matter how many line-dances I learn they will not make me Texan, and no matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish. And no-one who was not born into, to parents of, and brought up in a cultural milieu will ever understand and feel it like someone who was.


It is however arithmetically incontrovertible that if the only degree in folk music taught in England studies Scottish Irish and English folk music, English folk music is not being studied as much as if it were (or there were) a degree in English folk music.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:09 AM

Yes, Richard, and I just had another look at the Sage Event's Diary and 6 of the 14 final-recital students were, indeed, Scots (performing mainly Scottish music, which is good), with the rest performing some, but, overall, no-where near enough, English music.
Also, I had a look at "nature, nurture, or a knitting of both?" in my intro. blank verse poem, 0-19, and decided it was definitely both - with the ratio being much more debatable.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,ESAM
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:27 AM

"No matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish"

No matter how gratuously offensive you chose to be it will not make you big or clever.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM

Richard Bridge says:

"Going to live in Australia when I was 3 (for 3 years) did not make me Australian. Doing a "stage" in Alsace did not make me French. A cuckoo does not become a tit because it hatches in a tit's nest."

right...so no one coming to live in England, no matter how long they are here, is ever really going to be part of the culture? And my daughter, because half her genes are not "hardwired" to be English, will never really be as English as you, despite being born and raised here? She's the cuckoo in the nest, is she?


"and no matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish"

Nice overtly racist touch there as your finishing flourish.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:03 PM

African-Americans, The Irish, who next?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:11 PM

I take great exception to your Irish remark Richard. Great exception. Absolutely uncalled for.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

Can we get Richard Bridge & WAV banned from this forum for their overtly racist remarks?

Disgusting

Others have been banned for things far less offensive. Free speech is great when used with responsibility.

Paul

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:27 PM

I take exception to that remark/cheapshot, Banjiman/Paul - racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done. Questioning immigration, loss of culture, and the idea of trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law are other matters.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"and no matter how many alarm clocks I wire up as timers it will not make me Irish" said Richard Bridge.
what do you mean by this?
this nationality stuff is crap,I have an English passport,but I am not 100 per cent English,I have Irish and German ancestors as well.
how many English people do not somewhere have some foreign ancestry.
w.av, your own name David Franks suggests Jewish ancestry.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:31 PM

"racism is where we say they are all like this or that, which I have never done."

you can repeat this definition all the times you like, WAV - it won't make it any more true. Racism has many forms. Many of your basic philosophies have been proved to be parallel to those of the BNP. But I don't suppose they're racist either in the strange little world you inhabit.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:34 PM

The elephant in the drawing room for folk, and the reason I've never been comfortable with it at close quarters, is the wretched nonsense on this thread. As I said previously, one man's folk is another mein volk - it's always there, that lump of bigotry, narrow mindedness in a fancy hat and it stops people coming in.