English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:09 AM

Richard, I for one do not reject the idea of the English having roots, far from it. I spend much of my time playing English tunes and singing English songs. Unlike WAV, I do not do so to the exclusion of other material.

The point that I, and others, have been trying to make is that the English musical tradition is based on a wide range of material. Undoubtedly some of it originated in England, but if traditional singers and instrumentalists in the past had not freely borrowed good songs and tunes wherever they heard them, our tradition would be much the poorer.

What they then did was adapt these songs and tunes to their local styles, and it is that, rather than the provenance, which gives them an English flavour.

Our argument with WAV is not his insistence on English songs and tunes, but his narrow viewpoint. If he wants to restrict himself, that's fine, but he feels the rest of us should do the same, and that is what we are challenging.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:54 AM

"We accept and admire the African-American striving to determine and adopt "roots" to bolster identity and self worth."

That is the most hilarious and offensive comment I've read on here. The diaspora has created some of the finest, most widely loved, responsive music that exists, from minstel traditions, blues, soul whatever. Africans were shipped off round the world, what are they expected to do, explore West Africa's music and claim kin like some cheesy book worm?

"Why is it that so many reject the idea that the English could have roots or seek to revisit and preserve them? Why is the objection directed virtually only at the English?"

With the empire England became an atomised country plying its trades across the globe. The globe fed back in, inevitably. Nobody's rejecting anything. There's choice and people make it. English music as I suggested is very regional, it doesn't have a single well spring. What's wrong with recognising that instead of shoehorning it into some artificial national boundary?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:40 AM

get it right, Glueman - there never was an 'English' Empire. It was British, and the Scots in particular were major contributors to its 'success.'

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:43 AM

I dropped "My Bonnie" from my repertoire and offered it to those north of the border (I've never actually heard it on folk radio or clubs, thus far) once I became sure that it was not English but Scottish (even though I feel it's a beautiful tune). In my opinion, the origins of those two above shanties are debatable, still, and I'm yet to drop/replace them.
A couple of reasons: I love our world being multicultural, and think positive nationalism (with eco-travel and fair-trade, rather than yet more conquest and immigration) is the best way forward; and "FOLK MUSIC: Music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:46 AM

When I say I sing English Folk Songs, I mean folk songs in English, broadly speaking, picking up on variations from America, Australia & - where's that shanty about Essequibo River from? I sing them in my own voice however, a Northumbrian brogue, tinged with Scots & Irish & vernacular Tyneside, which, according to my wife, it's getting stronger since we moved to Lancashire back in September...

I know WAV personally, we have good friends in common & he makes a canny contribution to any amount of singarounds where it's his Australian accent that kicks it off, even when he's performing his own chants. I might hope that despite his admitted attempts to lose his accent as part to his repatriation, he comes to recognise it as one of the real strengths, a unique selling point indeed, of his own evident uniqueness. There's so many Traditional English Folk Songs in the Australian tradition, and so many great Australian folk songs anyway. Even songs like Peter Bellamy's setting of Henry Lawson's Glass on the Bar would take on another light if sang with a genuine Aussie brogue. You can't fake these things after all.

It's one thing being proud of a culture, but first, me thinks, we must be proud of ourselves, and of each other. God knows there's room enough.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

"get it right, Glueman - there never was an 'English' Empire"

Quite right, I was using the term to express why England might have failed to maintain a single tradition (that I don't believe exists anyway). It wasn't a slight on the Scots as my wife's family would be at pains to indicate. I thought Richard Bridge's comments were patronising and dismissive even for someone specialising in snippy putdowns.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

It's one thing being proud of a culture, but first, me thinks, we must be proud of ourselves, and of each other.

This is the key, for me. I strive to feel proud of what I actually am - not what anyone else thinks I ought to be. I'm perfectly aware of my Englishness and how my culture roots me.

Shane Meadows excellent film 'This Is England' is on TV tonight, WAV. I urge you to watch it.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:03 AM

Looking again I never used the term English Empire, I'm not given to nationalist flag waving whether it comes in Doc Martins or rainbow jumpers supping from tankards. As you say, the Clyde had its share in British 'success' in that area as much as the Bristol channel or the Mersey.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:12 AM

WAV, if you say another word about immigration we will have the repatriation argument again, and that's a promise.

And Sedayne's right - you're dissociating yourself from a large part of your own culture. You are Australian as well as English - just as I'm Welsh as well as English, my wife's Ukrainian as well as English and Barbara Allen is Scottish as well as English. It's not a problem.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM

WAV, I doubt you'll hear "My Bonnie" at a folk club, just as you're unlikely to hear "Danny Boy" or even "Wild Rover" - they're too well-known and overdone to be attractive to most folk audiences, who consider themselves too sophisticated for such material.

Shanties are literally international - they came from a working community made up of all races and nationalities. The ones we are familiar with are those sung in English, but there are many others in other languages. The musical and textual influences are likewise extremely wideranging, as you would expect from a community which was not only multinational in composition but extremely widely travelled.

Apart from being in the English language, they have no particular connection with England any more than they have with anywhere else. They are not part of an "English" cultural tradition. However they are part of a maritime tradition which England (and the other countries of the British Isles) had strong links with, and most singers have no difficulty including them in their repertoire.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:16 AM

You haven't answered my challenge to Barbara Allen, WAV.

To be clear, I don't think you should drop it from your repertoire, and I don't think you should be particularly worried about whether you sing a version of the lyrics or tune collected from either a Scottish or English source. Sing the song because you like it, for God's sake. Sing the version which sounds the best to you.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM

I sing the abovementioned version, Ruth - only I drop the last stanza; also (another bit of controversy) I use some multivoicing - including Barbara's lines in a kind of falsetto, and the dying Willie's lines with plently of extra air in my voice.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM

Glueman, you object to African Americans finding (or seeking to find) their roots? What sort af a nutter are you. If it's good for them (and I've never heard anyone else ever suggest it wasn't) then the equivalent is good for the rest of us.

And indeed it would be good if more people sang mostly their own tradition.

Or studied it.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:14 AM

WAV, you haven't answered the points I've raised about the song. Child's introduction to it (implying it's probably Scottish), the fact that you don't know where the tune you sing was collected, the fact that you don't know where the words you sing were collected.

You could be singing a Scottish tune to American lyrics for a song which is probably Scottish in origin, though no one knows for sure. How does this correspond to your narrow definition of English music?

See what we've been saying? You can't put cultural and geographical parameters around this music. Furthermore, if your "scholarship" consists of googling whatever version of a song you can find, even YOU - who preach to people about what music they should be singing, and how - can't vouch for the provenance of the material that you've absorbed into your repertoire!

I think if you're going to operate at this level of dogma, WAV, you need to be a bit more academically rigourous abut your sources.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:27 AM

I admitted I haven't got a copy of Child's book to access, Ruth, but, it says on that above site (which has referred to Childs) that "the version here is the English one"; and that Samuel Pepys, in his 17th century diary, was aware of its singing in England; also, it could be argued that the more-interactive web may, in some cases, be more accurate than a published book...?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:34 AM

Why are we indulging this racist twaddle?

I have no problem with a degree in English traditional music but we know from other threads that WAV is not being honest about his motivation for raising and supporting this don't we?

I am pretty secure in my "English" identity (hell, I was brought up a morris dancer and check my surname) but I don't feel any need to promote "Englishness" via the music I sing and play.....the test for music surely is about it being any good not where it comes from......it is a universal language where traditions have always been borrowed and swapped......and long may this continue.

Music should be about breaking down barriers between people not creating artificial ones.

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:37 AM

African Americans have developed an independent culture that sees little need to go back to historical roots, if that means West African tribal music. Jazz has successfully harnessed the 'serious' role wthin the diaspora and other musics have taken the popular forms. There's no equivalence in the English position, with the possible exception of Australian music and that's forcing a point.

I'm prepared to believe there's a single English style, instumentation or vocal if someone shows it to me, until then I'll believe there are lots of regional forms, plus some that have hybrid vigour (Scots/English, Welsh/English, etc). We can chase an illusory definite English form that has currency in Hamphire, Lancashire and Norfolk till the cows come home but, to harness a quote from a radio show last week 'I'd rather Liverpool win a throw in than England win the world cup'. We are people of the region, nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Saro
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

Well, it may be "the English one" meaning the one that was collected in England and therefore being sung in England at a specific time. But to claim an exclusive and sole identity for a song is not easy or nor is it always wise. I sing "the Hampshire Version" of a Night Visiting song - it was collected in Hampshire by Gardiner, so it is reasonable to call it a Hampshire version. However, it also mentions travelling over the mountains, which suggests that it originates elsewhere, unless the Hampshire terrain has altered a lot since 1906! Even what collectors say about songs is not always the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, there are embroideries, politica bias, and plain honest mistakes in there as well to contend with and we many have to accept that some stuff is "probably" or "possibly" of a certain origin, but only after some pretty solid research!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

"Samuel Pepys, in his 17th century diary, was aware of its singing in England;"

and where did that information come from? Presumably the author of your website got it from the introduction to Barbara Allen in Child (vol II), in which he says: 'Mr GF Graham, [in] Songs of Scotland...has pointed out an allusion to the "little Scotch song of Barbary Allen" in Pepys' Diary, 2 Jan 1665-6'

So Pepys actually calls it a Scottish song.


"the more-interactive web may, in some cases, be more accurate than a published book...?"

Book or website, what matters is sources and provenance. There are far too many websites out there which don't cite sources, are plagiaristic, or are wholly factually inaccurate.

As I used to say to my first-year university students: Just because you saw it on a website, that doesn't make it true. As with books, it's about the quality and the integrity of the source.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM

"I admitted I haven't got a copy of Child's book to access, Ruth, but, it says on that above site (which has referred to Childs) that "the version here is the English one"; and that Samuel Pepys, in his 17th century diary, was aware of its singing in England; also, it could be argued that the more-interactive web may, in some cases, be more accurate than a published book...? "

WAV, not all books are right, but it is easier to check up on them, refferences, etc, in book form. As a general rule, if you have a book published, it has been checked several times and deemed worthy of the expense of being published. There is good stuff on the web, but it is very UNRELIABLE.

That site uses the definitive article. Preposterous. There are more English versions than one. Anyway, it has no provenance, no indication of what manuscript, or recording it comes from. It might even have been rewritten by the people who run the website for all we know.

Sadly I only have vol. 1 of Child, so I can't chyeck him.

As for Pepys, he says that he heard Barbara Allen, but here is what we can reasonably deduce.

1) a song by that name existed in the 1660s.
2) that it was reasonably well-known, for Pepys to recognise and for someone to be singing it in the streets.

This does NOT mean that Barbara Allen is necessarily English in origin, that the version which Pepys heard was an English one and that the singer was English. The above could be true, but that is the realm of speculation. It also doesn't mean that the lyrics and tune presented on the website are the ones which Pepys overheard.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

For on-line Child Ballads see: http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/child-ballads/

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:19 AM

"The version used here is the English one. The tune is traditional."

What does this mean? Which English "one"? There will be many English versions of the lyrics. Collected where, from whom, by whom? From which broadside? The tune is cited as "traditional" - from what tradition? Is it from bronson or another source? again, what is its provenance?

I'm really surprised that someone who is so unshakeably dogmatic, not just in what they will sing but what and how they expect others to sing, has built their beliefs on such dodgy foundations. If you're going to defend such a contentious position, WAV, you really must have more robust sources.

Also that someone who constantly brings up his academic qualifications can have developed his philosophy based on so little academic rigour.

And, further, that someone whose sources are dodgy, generalist internet sites which don't provide any real provenance for their music, is happy to argue with academics and ethnomusicologists in defending his position. And in insisting that everyone else ought to adopt his philosophy as well.

What collossal arrogance, or collossal stupidity. The mind boggles.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:47 AM

Thanks, Sedayne, I'm a bit surprised to find all that there for free, but I've put it on my favourites list. On the balance of probability, for what it's worth, I'm still sticking with the 17 E. trads in my repertoire, including Barbara Allen - like most/all, Ruth, I do put some limits on the amount of "academic rigour"; my selection has been questioned, and I have re-checked with the sources presently available to me. And, in agreement with Richard, above, I maintain that the efforts, as a repat., I've made to practise my own English culture are not a bad thing.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

"- like most/all, Ruth, I do put some limits on the amount of "academic rigour"

WAV, you're not demonstrating ANY. You're taking the word of someone whose work you don't know, whose sources you don't know, that this is the "English version" of a song. If all of this stuff is so important to you, surely you care about whether what you're singing really IS an English song or not? Otherwise, your whole thesis is more of a nonsense than ever.

Most of the people with whom you've had discussions about your singuular outlook here on Mudcat would consider the sort of research I've suggested a pretty minimal level of "academic rigour", particularly if you're going to start making sweeping claims about your philosophy and your approach. Surely you, in wanting to get to know your "good English culture", care about what versions of songs you're learning and where they've come from, and not simply learn whatever dross is culled from the first source on your Google search. Otherwise, your whole repertoire risks being a load of faked-up nonsense.

"the efforts, as a repat., I've made to practise my own English culture are not a bad thing. "

Well, judging from what i've seen today, they're really not all that impressive. It certainly puts a lot of your woeful ignorance about folk music into perspective, but it's still staggering to think of you making pronouncements about music, based on these hollow and flimsy sources, to people who have spent lifetimes on legitimate research into this music and culture.

*wanders away, shaking head in disbelief*

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:28 AM

I did say, Ruth, since you didn't notice, that I've also been to Newcastle Library, listened to folk-radio, and gone to as many folk clubs and festivals as I can afford (I haven't tallied-up or told of the hours, but you seem to have ASSUMED they are low)...but there's also manufacturing job-searching, poetry, actually going through my selection to keep the tunes and lyrics in my head, recording, tennis, cooking, cleaning, debating...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:48 AM

Look, WAV - you're the one who has set out his stall here (repeatedly). You argue for people to sing a certain repertoire, in a way which you deem appropriate. You have argued vociferously for people to sing English song. Yet it seems you don't even really know the provenance of many of the songs you sing (even if you do hear them in singarounds or festivals).

If you wanted to sing these songs purely for your own pleasure, you know what? It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference which songs came from where, when or how. And I think most of the people with whom you've tangled here would positively encourage you in this. The music is fabulous - enjoy it! Don't get anal about whether ia song comes from Northumberland or just over the Scottish border. If you love it, sing it!

The problem is, WAV, that you set out your approach to singing as part of a wider political agenda. You have preached - and tried to dictate - on thread after thread, to people who have known and loved folk music much longer than you have. This is the other issue, you see: even if you wanted to set up these narrow - and entirely false - parameters for yourself, most people would have shrugged and said, "Whatever." It was when you started telling others what they ought to sing, using your own repertoire over and over as an example, that people got pissed off.

Now it turns out that you can't even defend your choice of repertoire, because you couldn't even be bothered to do the most fundamental research on where the songs originated. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Going back to the origins of this thread; when I think of the irony of you sitting in judgement on the Newcastle degree students, and their choice of repertoire...those students are compelled to study the canon of English music and song far more deeply than you have, or likely ever will. They have tutors like Chris Coe and Sandra Kerr, for god's sake, teaching them about the value of the tradition and the sources for the songs they sing. The degree has produced some very fine young singers of English traditional song. And you sit there with your fistful of cliched, done-to-death songs culled from the internet, and judge those young people for what they choose to sing?

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:49 AM

The point is, WAV, that there are plenty of people here who have done more - much more - and just about all of them think your position is wrong, daft or both. If you were really interested in learning about English cultures and traditions - if you were really interested in learning - you'd take that on board.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM

I said, Ruth, I have made efforts - within limits - to check origins, etc., in building my repertoire, and was trained to do suchlike during my major in anthropology/BA in humanities. As for your penultimate paragraph, please read this above post again - Date: 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

"I have made efforts - within limits - to check origins, etc., in building my repertoire, and was trained to do suchlike during my major in anthropology/BA in humanities."

very poor efforts, from the look of things. A quick internet surf and a cut-and-paste is not really research. As I say, I used to lecture on a BA degree course. I certainly would have found your approaches to research, argument and evidence wholly unacceptable.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM

Anthropology is about the study & understanding of human cultures & societies, presumably with as little preconceived baggage getting in the way as possible. Methinks, WAV, if you applied more of an Anthropological methodology to your understanding of English Culture & Society, it might yield a greater harvest than that you're currently reaping. Heave-ho the baggage - and dig deeper than The Digital Tradition for your repertoire; and in any case add at least one zero to your limit of traditional songs - 17 - 170 - 1700. God knows there's enough of them out there...

Otherwise, has Mudcat ever been so much fun since WAV stepped out of his eponymous thread? I think not...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

I began anthropology getting low-credits for my essays, Ruth, I ended getting high-distinctions (proveable, as I've kept them); and, I'm telling you, I have put quite a lot into folk music, as well.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:34 AM

Even if it is "provable", sorry - in case the likes of The Snail slither by. I'll try and record those 2 times 17, Sedayne, before doing as you say...I understand your way is somewhat different - 1 on the go, several in waiting. But, frankly (although, including my Chants from Walkabouts, and a few carols, I have more than 50), I doubt I'll ever get to 170 - let alone 1700; but I hope to continue to listen to many more - both live and on radio, etc.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

"I have made efforts - within limits - to check origins"

It's those limits, WAV, that are the problem. No one on here is impressed with the limited research you have done, which appears to be mostly on the internet. Anyone with a serious interest in the music would be checking reputable printed sources and recordings. Admittedly they are not always easy to obtain, but your local library should be able to help, or you could try the Vaughn Williams library. Or use the internet with more care and don't take a single website at its face value. You say you were trained to do this at university, but there is precious little evidence of it in what you write on here.

WAV, no one doubts your enthusiasm, but by your own admission you have only been involved in folk music for a fairly short time. Others on here have been deeply involved for 30, 40, 50 years or more. We are trying to be patient with your naivety, but your unwavering belief that you are right is trying!

I had to read your post of 30 May 3:45pm several times to understand it, but so what? Most of the students on the Newcastle degree do include traditional material in their repertoires, but if it also produces a songwriter able to produce fine new English songs based on a grounding in the tradition, then I think it has made a contribution.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

"As for your penultimate paragraph, please read this above post again - Date: 30 May 08 - 03:45 PM."

This is where you accuse the tutors on the folk degree of not doing their job? Well, if someone joins the degree singing original songs with a guitar and leaves, four years later, still doing that, why does it mean that the tutors are not doing their job? The students are not being indoctrinated into the English tradition. They are artists, who will absorb the influences they wish to and discard the rest. Like any artist. Or any student, come to that.

As I say, i've known several students from the degree in recent years, and they receive excellent tuition in English folk song. They certainly are exposed to more than 17 English songs. I'm listening to a recently-released CD by one of those students right now - Hannah James of Kerfuffle. It includes the likes of Down By the Greenwood Side, Two Sisters, The Northill May Song from Bedfordshire, The Snows They Melt The Soonest, the Castleton Carol...you know, all those English songs the degree students have no knowledge of.

Very good it is, too.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:11 AM

Howard, you say read/study more but you clearly have not bothered reading the posts of the one you are criticising - I've used books: you will not find, e.g., "The Northumbrian Bagpipes" or "The Tyne Exiles Lament" in google/on the web. As with Ruth, you are ASSUMING the time I've put in is low.
The folk degree in question is based within the borders of England, but it's likely, sadly, that less than half of what was presented at this year's final recitals was E. trad - there were Scots performing their culture, and English performing largely the culture of other nations. (When members of The Devil's Interval were doing their final recitals, the other year, the percentages were much better as far as E. trads go.) This year, I repeat, the quality/musicianship was good, but NOT the selection.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

WAV, somewhere I believe you said you'd been involved with folk music for I think 3-4 years. I don't have time to go back through all the recent threads to check this, and if I've got this wrong then I apologise. I've been involved with it for approaching 40 years, so from my perspective the time you've put in is low, but I realise you're younger than me.

I said your research appeared to be "mostly" on the internet. I'm sure you've used books as well, but since you usually justify your claims by references to the internet rather than books it seems fair to assume that this your primary source. Your knowledge of some of the major reputable sources seems fairly limited, based on what you've said on here. Again, if this is incorrect I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

WAV, how many of those students have ancestry from Scotland, Ireland, etc.? I wouldguess that quite a few, anyway, most of those songs have been found in the 'tradition', besides, it really boils down to what the student wants to make their own.
Wouldn't someone from Newcastle be just as likely to sing a Scottish song, from just a few miles up the road, as anything sung in East Anglia?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:50 AM

There are two issues being confused here by flakmongers who seem to hate the idea of there being an English (or more than one English) tradition.

Does it make sense for people to perform mostly within the tradition from which they come? Of course it does. Watch the pitiful attempts of most white musicians to perform blues reggae or African music. Can't you holy Joes HEAR the difference?

Do you not understand how scholars of music can say that certain nationalities of folk music use certain modes or scales? If you can understand that then you most be able to understand that a music can come from particular tradition.

You attack the above by criticising WAV's research.. That's a non-sequitur.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:52 AM

I know little about the degree in Limerick (except that it's called a Degree in Irish Traditional Music and Dance), but I do know that when the students in Glasgow performed for Gaelic BBC TV they did indeed present Scottish culture - I want the degree in Newcastle, ENGLAND to be like that, and if that means enlarging the department in Glasgow, good.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:56 AM

I want the degree in Newcastle, ENGLAND to be like that, and if that means enlarging the department in Glasgow, good.

But, why do you want that? You're not on the course, you're not connected with it in any way. It has no bearing on your life.

Live and let live.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

Well, it's NOT like that, WAV. I object to you denegrating their hard work because it isn't exactly what you think it ought to be. If it means that much to you, do what Alistair Anderson has done: work tirelessly and often thanklessly for 40 years in folk music, develop a peerless reputation and bags of credibility, and then convince a good university to take on the degree and syllabus which YOU think is more appropriate.

I won't hold my breath.

Richard Bridge, all of us on this thread have stated categortically that we believe in English culture. We love and support it. We just don't believe in it to the exclusion of all else, as WAV does.

His research is relevant because his "repertoire" is a load of cobblers. But he still wants to hold it up as some sort of gold standard that we should all aspire to.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM

"Howard, you say read/study more but you clearly have not bothered reading the posts of the one you are criticising - I've used books: you will not find, e.g., "The Northumbrian Bagpipes" or "The Tyne Exiles Lament" in google/on the web"
No? Guess what the top google result for 'tyne+exile's+lament+lyrics' is.
http://www.geocities.com/matalzi/priests3.html#The%20Tyne%20Exile's
Interestingly enough, the tune is based on the Banks of the Dee, a song written by a Scotsman. I understand that the tune itself appeared in an early 1700s dancebook from London, but do you think that the author of the Exile's Lament based it on that obscure source rather than on the singing of Scottish neighbours?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

I quickly found the same source for Tyne Exile's Lament. It appears to come from an 1888 "Beuk o' Newcassel Songs" compiled by Joseph Cawhill. It may be English, but it doesn't read like a folk song, the text is too flowery. And as Volgadon points out, it's set to a Scottish tune "Banks of the Dee" (although as I've pointed out elsewhere, it's found widely in the English tradition)

I don't know WAV's "Northumbrian Bagpipes" song but guess that it might be "The Northumberland Bagpipes" from the Roxburgh collection and printed in "Pills to Purge Melancholy".

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/popular-music-olden-times-2/popular-music-of-olden-times2%20-%200536.htm

Again, it doesn't read like a folk song.

Of course, both are English but possibly not traditional, unless there is evidence that they have subsequently been collected

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

Thanks, Volgadon - that site is quite a new one "created 06.02.'08", and a good one (with midi, lyrics, and notation), which I've just added to my favoutites. (It gives the tune in Bb, whereas the book I found it in gives it in Eb.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:48 PM

"APPRECIATE OTHER CULTURES BUT PRACTISE/PERFORM YOUR OWN"

I can play anything I like, sunshine.

If I want to play blues, jazz, reggae, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx, Hawaiian, bluegrass, country, punk, gypsy jazz, pop, rock, or anything else I like, then I'll damn well play it.

If I have to do this without the approval of a couple of opinionated blokes on the Internet, well it's a tough old life, but that's a burden I'll just have to try and live with.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM

That's it Howard - I've been introducing it as "The Northumbrian Bagpipes," as that's the name most small-pipers here seem to give their instrument. Once I'd found them at the library, I didn't bother checking the web again but, yes, both these tunes/songs are now on it, thanks. Accordingly with what else you say, when I've performed TNB I've heard "that's a strange tune"; and when I've perforned TTEL, I've heard "that's a great tune."

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM

APPRECIATE OTHER CULTURES BUT PRACTISE/PERFORM YOUR OWN.

I'd missed that one before...

Sorry mate, I'm English but I'll continue to participate in Irish sessions.

As far as I'm concerned, where we go with our music is a personal choice. Our own feelings of Englishness or whatever are personal too. Personally (perhaps in part as I lived twice in Wales), I have no such feelings and I do not feel "rooted" anywhere.

Musically, I go where I find I find the music most appealing to me, I get the most enjoyment and I feel most comfortable, it's as simple as that.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:51 PM

There are two issues being confused here by flakmongers who seem to hate the idea of there being an English (or more than one English) tradition.

If you're going to fulminate against other commenters, could you identify the people you're fulminating against? Speaking for myself, the fact that there's more than one English tradition is a point I've made, repeatedly, arguing against WAV's fetishised version of "our good English culture".

Does it make sense for people to perform mostly within the tradition from which they come? Of course it does.

My father was born in Wrexham, my mother in Battersea; I grew up in South Wales and South London; and I've spent more than half my life in South Manchester. What's the tradition from which I come? Welsh? (Which - North or South?) London? Lancashire? If I consciously chose to position myself in any one of those traditions I'd have serious difficulties - not least because that I'd have to get all the material from other performers, from books, from records and from the Net, just as I would if I adopted any other tradition.

I am not Bob Copper or Shirley Collins; in musical terms, "the tradition from which I come" means precisely nothing. I sing traditional material because I like it, just like WAV. I get the material I sing from books and records and from the Net, just like WAV. Neither of us is doing anything to perpetuate "the tradition from which [we] come", because at this point in history that tradition doesn't actually exist. (At least, that's true for me - WAV may have run into some genuinely vernacular traditional culture Down Under, and perhaps could be doing the world a service by keeping it going.)

Talking about 'English' traditional music is either dishonest or nonsensical - as if you could conjure up a coherent national culture by simply excluding everything 'un-English' (and who would judge?).

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 01:53 PM

And there are, of course, folks in Scotland and Ireland, e.g., who have the same attitude as you, Jon - but, in modern England, the percentages are, sadly, much worse, and that is reflected by the 3 degrees mentioned above.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

I'm with Guest Jon, I go where I find I find the music most appealing to me plus I enjoy the music, where it comes from is immaterial, yes I'm English and proud of it, but it has no bearing on the music that I like. Now if you'll excuse me, I do believe I'll play Neil Young's Prairie Wind CD (yes, I know, it's not folk) :-D