English Folk Degree?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:26 AM

'To Richard: "anon." appears in anthologies to describe poems of unknown author; whereas, in folk circles, "trad." is used.'


Eep - WAV is lecturing on the conventions of folk music! I knew he was here to educate us all. Look out, Newcastle...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:39 AM

...and, while we are at it, the "known composer" branch of folk music may, then, be divided into "contemporary known-composer folk music" and "deceased known-composer folk music"...and, again, sorry about all the syllables but, here, they are unavoidable. Finally, the "deceased known-composer folk music" branch, may need to be further divided into (C) expired/not expired.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:47 AM

I said "finally" but, within the "contemporary known-composer folk music" branch, there are, of course, depending on who the performer is, self-penned songs/tunes and covers.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 05:58 AM

Been avoiding this torturous thread - though hats off to Sue, Ruth, Phil, Sedayne, Howard, Glue etc for some fair points well made.

Richard's point about the need for a specifically English folk degree brings me back here though.

Look.

We have this great course that's churning out some top class, well informed, largely (but not entirely) English performers tutored by some of the great names in English folk performance and academia. In what way is that not to be celebrated and applauded? In what way does it not give Richard (and the wavy one, for that matter) exactly what he says he wants? Surely you're not getting yourself into a twisty underpants situation merely because the word 'English' isn't on the course title?

Is our folk degree somehow not good enough for you? When you're such a staunch defender of the good enough for folk corner?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

Ah, I'm slowly getting the idea Phil. WAV submits a proposal that's unprovable and politically contentious. Almost everyone reassures him that's the case. He only returns to the matter every umpteenth post and then through extracts drawn from an equally unresolved but previously self-published set of contentions as though that supports his day dream.
The few voices who dessent are ones who see the opportunity to use the thread for an expurgation of 1954 as though repeating the date and its significance lends it an authority beyond the members who originally proposed it, thus sealing it as a shibboleth that underwrites their preferred mode of public performance.

Meanwhile WAV tracks through a standard agenda which has little or nothing to do with the original question but has vague allusions to a sunlit upland where culture was only diluted by tribal movement in canoes by people from the paler parts of europe bringing new pottery styles and maybe the odd seed drill. While the rest of the board grow confused and agitated at his inability to reply to a straight question he redoubles his effort by asking the same question in a different way, on a separate thread.

Fascinating sociologically but almost nothing to do with folk (by any definition) and utterly, utterly mad.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

To Ewan.: if you don't believe my earlier post that 6 of 14 final recitalists this year were Scots (performing mostly Scottish music, which is good), and that the remainder did not perform anywhere near enough E. trad material (which is not good), then ask The Sage for a copy of their free Events Diary. There IS a problem, that goes beyond nomenclature, and that, Glueman, has a lot "to do with folk".

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: glueman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:37 AM

Answer the previous questions WAV, any of them, and I'll listen. You've gone into the distraction phase of the thread now that's dependent on other poster's goodwill not to call you again on the big issues.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM

I can't be really bothered to read all the stuff on this thread to make sure that this has not been mentioned but show me where it says that it is a degree in English Traditional Music. It is a degree in performance.

They cover things like agents, self-employment and setting up as singer/performer etc. as well as music.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM

To WAV: two straight questions. Firstly, you say you want immigration to be limited; you also say that you're not a racist, as "we are dealing with culture here NOT race". How do you propose to limit immigration on cultural and NOT racial grounds? What difference would there be in the identities of the people who were turned away?

Secondly, you say you don't want any immigrants who are already here to leave. How is this consistent with wanting a mono-cultural England?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:50 AM

England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began

So there we have it, in your own words, WAV - fine for England to be a blend of Caucasians cultures & peoples but 50 years ago (the end of your golden age of England) the African-Caribbeans and Asians began to arrive and bang went the gleaming white neighbourhood. How can you write that and yet have the neck to maintain you're not a racist?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 06:55 AM

Folkiedave - I think you may be looking at something else. It's a BMus in Folk and Traditional Music, run by such jumped-up charlatans and traitors to their raceculture as Vic Gammon, Alistair Anderson and Kathryn Tickell.

(I mean, really - talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:03 AM

"If you don't believe my earlier post that 6 of 14 final recitalists this year were Scots (performing mostly Scottish music, which is good), and that the remainder did not perform anywhere near enough E. trad material (which is not good), then ask The Sage for a copy of their free Events Diary."

And exactly why is this a problem?

Why are you so hung up on imposing artificial national boundaries on traditional music? Do you not get the idea that someone from Cumbria and someone from Dumfries, for example, are divided only by an invisible line, and are potentially a lot closer, culturally, than someone from Kent and someone from Durham?

In what way is Newcastle student concentrating on traditional Scottish music stopping any of their fellow students concentrating on, say, the music of Devon? Or Lancashire? Anyway, chances are there'll be a bit of crossover anyway and they'll hopefully learn from each other. Broadening the mind: generally understood to be a good thing.

Me, I like our colourful, diverse, vibrant actually-existing England, warts and all. Don't think I'd fancy your grim, retrogressive monoculture. Sounds a bit too much like the suburbs for my liking (though as someone who grew up in Australia you might find that comfortingly familiar!). Luckily, the only concievable way we'd get what you seem to be advocating is (like it or not, WAV) if a BNP government was elected. Now, unless the British people are struck down with a collective outbreak of mass idiocy, that prospect is highly unlikely.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM

I made a statement/summary of what has happened in response to Don - I did not make any judgement on it, Sedayne (who should learn not to put words in peoples mouths).
To Phil: I think the UN should take control of immigration and help genuine assylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country; and you forget about assimilation, which can and has occurred.
I'm not a member of the BNP or any other political party, Ewan. - I believe in the English nation and the United Nations; via such forums, I have, however, been contacted by the English Democrats and their "positive nationalism", which I agree with (also an offer to pass on my poems was made, and, last time I looked, Show of Hands were on their website).
Now, having dealt, again, with the distractions that I am accused of, any opinions here on my on-thread suggestion, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 07:36 AM

If you don't believe my earlier post that 6 of 14 final recitalists this year were Scots (performing mostly Scottish music, which is good), and that the remainder did not perform anywhere near enough E. trad material (which is not good), then ask The Sage for a copy of their free Events Diary

Is this, perchance, an example of society suffering as England loses its own good culture? In which case, last one out please turn off the lights!

Interesting to note that there are more examples of WAVs own good English culture now than ever there were back in the halcyon days of the 1950s. More folk singers, more of them singing E-trads both unaccompanied and accompanied, more instrumentalists, more sessions, more Morris Dancers - in fact, the folk joint is positively jumping & long may it remain so!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM

English Democrats

Another fringe party who thankfully don't stand a cat in hell's chance of amounting to a hill of beans.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM

Ewan, it is because that degree is not specifically English, whereas there are other courses that are specific to other traditions, so it necessarily follows that English is under-represented.

Er - WAV, sorry to disagree. Folk is folk, not folk is not folk. Apply the 1954 definition.   Trad is trad, not trad is not trad. Anon is anon whenever it was written. There are provisions in the CDPA dealing with anonymous and psuedonymous works that may still be in copyright.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:01 AM

Sedayne (who should learn not to put words in peoples mouths)

My apologies, WAV, but this is pretty serious stuff that needs clarifying given your persistence with ideas that would be entirely nonsensical were you not a racist. A statement such as England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began has immediate resonances with your belief that 1950 marked the end of a golden age of English culture. I'm not a great believer in coincidence, so in looking for a correlation we might be tempted to draw a conclusion based as much on what you're obviously not saying, but which is implicit in every word you do say.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

This thread is a Shambles.
'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

But, Sedayne, as studious as you are, you won't find, on any forum, where I have criticised any particular culture or race (on the contrary, I have enjoyed travelling through about 40 countries and doing a major in anthropology), so, because you don't like immigration being questioned, you, and others here, have resorted to putting words in my mouth. We live in a democracy, Sedayne, and you should accept that folks in it are allowed to question immigration - which, hopefully for one last time, is NOT the same as racism.
And, rather than another flood of B- and R-words, how about another opinion on what I said, just above, that the founders of the course in question may have wanted an English folk degree, but been prevented by other powers-that-be in England, perhaps trying to keep the UK together..?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM

as studious as you are

Touché! I am an uneducated lout with few formal qualifications and justly proud of it. I once made it to Durham University (1993) as a mature student on the back of an Access Course but was forced to withdraw after the first term owing to the onset of ME / Post-viral Fatigue Syndrome following a serious bout of flu that hit me after my vasectomy (I quote: "It might be a little tender for a few days."). I'm still plagued by it yet, ME that is, but it's nowt compared to my recent susceptibility to episodes of Vasovagal Syncope which is an absolute bastard...

Anyhoo - whilst it is true that you've never criticised any particular culture or race, you nevertheless persist with a mono-cultural idealism in a multicultural context. This, I would have thought, was evidence enough of at least certain discomfort on your part with the multi-cultural realities of England in 2008. Further, your criteria as to what actually constitutes our own good English culture can be proven to be entirely dependant on cultural developments that have occurred within the last fifty years, in terms of revivals of things that never were leading to the present flowering of English folk song, music and dance which is unprecedented in the whole of English history. It's all happening now, WAV - not back then. One would have thought you'd be pleased.

I can't help but love your idea of an conspiracy to keep the UK together via a subverting of the Folk Degree course, however. Who do you think might be behind this? I reckon it could be the Labour Party, realising that if ever there was such a thing as Scottish Devolution we'd never see another Labour Government in England again... In which case, as I said elsewhere, I'm gonna grab me a few tubes of Fosters and me digeridoo, dangle some corks from my hat and emigrate to the Northern Territories whistling Waltzing Matilda...

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:05 AM

errrmmm.. has anyone else of 'pure' English descent
actually dared raise the point yet
that a plain diet of ENGLISH folk music
can be extremely monotone and boring
to all but a few
obsessive performers and stout hearted cleverclogs minority audiences ?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM

WAV,how do you question immigration?should we do away with immigration laws altogther?do you want tougher immigration laws? do you want better working conditions for immigrants?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:28 AM

*sigh*

I responded to your bloody question this morning, WAV, as well as re-stating a very simple question of my own:

"It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end."

WAV, who are these powers-that-be? I've taught at an English university, and I can tell you what the priorities are: recruitment. Bums on seats. As Sue has said, the direction of the degree is likely to have been dictated by the course title that would attract the greatest number of students.

"yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began;"

So all these European cultures blending was okay (never mind the historical persecution of Catholics, French, Jews etc - let's just pretend England had always been a lovely big harmonious melting pot); it was only when black and Asian people started coming over that immigration became "bad". Why is that, WAV?

You haven't told me if you agree or disagree with these statements:

Although it is impractical, in a perfect world you would really like it if all immigrants currently living in England were to return to their country of origin.

You dislike immigration to England because it pollutes/dilutes English culture.

You like other cultures, so long as they stay in their own countries.

You want English people to practise English culture, and would not like people who come from other places pracising that culture - they should stick to their own traditions.


Go on, WAV. No one is putting words in your mouth. TELL US IF YOU AGREE WITH THESE STATEMENTS OR NOT.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:32 AM

Ah WAV, good to see the same cut and paste job from your "website" with the same spelling and grammatical errors again and again. Good to see your continued obfuscation as well-did you ever work for Karl Rove by any chance?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:39 AM

We can, of course, Sedayne, be studious without doing a course of formal study. And your last post was, I think, fair enough, although, as I said earlier, I hope you settle on a VISIT to Aus., even if England bemomes an independent republic.
To 21.: your post, however, is not fair enough, and studious Sedayne may back me up on this one - there IS plenty of variety with the English tradition (including clever Northumbrian and Lancashire clog-dancing).
To CB: please see above - the UN taking control of it, etc.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:51 AM

WAV, your racism seems mild enough, a watered down version of wogs begin at Calais, you don't really CARE about what happens outside of England, just as long as there isn't multiculturalism IN England. I've asked, do you like the idea of ENGLAND being multicultural, you've studiously avoided an answer, so I'll take that as a 'no, I don't.' If that's not true and I put words in your mouth, please answer with a straightforward 'I do like the idea, etc.'
Comments such as. "yes, England is/was an old old blend of mostly European cultures, until about 50 years ago when the mass immigration you refer to began; and you may like to read my poem #76 LAND RIGHTS." Makes it seem like you object to NON-EUROPEAN mass immigration to England. Reveals a studious ignorance of history and culture. Just because someone comes from the neighbouring continent, is of similar stock and physiology, does'nt mean that the culture is compatible. I'll repeat one of my favorite examples. Just ask any Sarf-Lunoners from 1600-1700 what they thought of Hugeonot textile-makers. I'm not even going to mention the Irish. Then there is the influx of French and Germans throught the centuries, in fact, I'll think you'll find that it was the Europeans who changed English culture far more than anyone from the West Indies or Indian subcontinent. Oh yes, the influx of Jews and others from Eastern Europe from the mid of the 19th onwards is an interesting study. All European, but vastly different to anyone else!
There had also been a steady flow of immigrants from the East and the Indies during the 19th century, so nothing new.

WAV, have you never been young? Have you never wanted to do something because you enjoy it? Let me know which approach you think is more effective.
A) The instructor walks into the room. "For the next four years you are going to have to learn and sing ballads about gay young maids and jolly sailors in a nasaly drone with no harmonising, because that is how a Norfolk fisherman was recorded and that was how things were done in the ENGLISH tradition. You may NOT sing any songs or play any tunes with a possible non-English origin."
B) The instructor walks into the room, gives an overview of traditional music in the UK. "This was how the music interacted with other regions, these are some songs which come from the textile factories, Northumbrian pipers tended to employ these techniques and ornaments, in contrast to the Scottish smallpipe tradition, the difference between strathspeys and reels is thus, etc.
Now let's listen to Sam Larner and then Ms Redpath."
If someone is grabbed by Sam Larner's singing, especially after studying the background, without being FORCED to, surely chances are that the person will be hooked.
People are more likely to love and appreciate their own culture when given freedom to do so. Attitudes like you HAVE to enjoy this, it's English, don't work terribly well. Look up the word resentment. Study a psychology book.

"It is also possible that those who started the course wanted it to be an English folk degree, but were prevented by other powers-that-be: e.g., a lot in England still wish to keep the UK together, and expect English culture to suffer for this end."

Anyway, as for your trad means unknown author argument, you are comparing apples (poetry anthologies) and oranges (folk MUSIC). Songs can be anon., trad has a slightly different meaning, something found within a certain tradition. Let's take the well-known Jewish piyut, "Dror Yikra". The author, Dunash bin Lavrat, has been known since the day he compose it during the 900s, yet it is called a tradtional song. Why? This liturgical Sabbath song has been found in early every Jewish community and is growing in popularity. Part of a tradition.

You threw a tantrum about how your poem was formatterd, but you didnt adress the point I made about morris dancing (or even tea), or my question, what IS English culture.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 10:56 AM

Ooh, another question, WAV. Say that the UN does take control of immigration and decide that it is perfectly fine the way it is, in fact, why not INCREASE it. What would you say then?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM

and studious Sedayne may back me up on this one - there IS plenty of variety with the English tradition (including clever Northumbrian and Lancashire clog-dancing)

Indeed I will certainly back you up on that, WAV - as I'm sure most here would, but they'd also tell you (as they have been doing) there's nothing particularly, peculiarly or purely, English about any of it other than the fact of it taking place in England. Also, and perhaps more significantly in this context, this English Tradition, thriving & fascinating as it may be, does not amount to a single per-cent* of English Cultural activity as a whole, whatever the ethnicity. I have no figures to back me up on this, of course, and would hope in actuality it's significantly higher - all I do know is (if I may quote myself) that one can go for a lot of years in the real world without meeting another folkie, so it could be significantly lower. In any case, I don't think we're in any danger of losing it, not with the calibre of young singers & musicians coming up at the moment, and not just in Newcastle either.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:04 AM

folks in it are allowed to question immigration - which, hopefully for one last time, is NOT the same as racism.

WAV, I think you might get on better with this debating lark if you actually read some words written by other people. As I've said before, questioning immigration is not necessarily racist; it all depends on what grounds you're questioning it. To repeat my first question to you (which you haven't answered):

you say you want immigration to be limited; you also say that you're not a racist, as "we are dealing with culture here NOT race". How do you propose to limit immigration on cultural and NOT racial grounds? What difference would there be in the identities of the people who were turned away?

Here was your answer: I think the UN should take control of immigration and help genuine assylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country

Look, never mind asylum seekers, never mind the UN. There's a planeload of people in the arrivals lounge, not a UK passport between them, and they all want to come and live in England.

A liberal would say, immigration is fine - let them all in.
A xenophobe would say, we don't want any immigration - they're not English, turn them all away.
A racist would say, we want to limit immigration - let in the ones with the right ethnic background and turn the rest away.
A capitalist would say, we want to limit immigration - let in the ones with a marketable skill and turn the rest away.

You say you want to limit immigration, but on 'cultural' and not racial grounds. What do you do? Who do you turn away?

As for my second question:

you say you don't want any immigrants who are already here to leave. How is this consistent with wanting a mono-cultural England?

You said: you forget about assimilation, which can and has occurred.

So newcomers need to assimilate to English culture rather than maintaining their own. That's going to knock the bottom out of the delicatessen and takeaway food sectors, but never mind. What if it doesn't happen? What if people stubbornly persist in going to the mosque and listening to gospel music and cheering for the wrong side at cricket? If too many of the wrong sort of people come here, and they persist in being the wrong sort of people, the implication can only be that some of them should leave.

I'm just asking you to be honest about your beliefs, and about the implications of your beliefs. It doesn't mean you're a Fascist, or anything to the right of Thatcher-era Tory Party (they had a 'voluntary repatriation' policy, incidentally). It just means you've got views which many people here genuinely, sincerely and rationally disagree with very strongly.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:26 AM

"you don't really CARE about what happens outside of England" (Volgadon)...that is ridiculous - you may disagree with what I've proposed, but to say I don't care...please spend (half) a day in your life and read my life's work. Also, I did answer, and you went off on one of your rants about how Morris dancing is not English.
To Phil, I disagree with your hypothesis, and refer you, also, to my life's work.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:33 AM

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, WAV. PHIL ASKED YOU SPECIFIC QUESTIONS AND SO DID I. JUST ANSWER THEM.

Or are you afraid that if you do, you won't be able to hide your true colours any more?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:35 AM

Maybe that was harsh, I still suspect that you do feel that way, but what I mean is that you don't really care how the world lives, because it doesn't directly affect you. Answer this simple question, with a yes or no. Do you like the idea of ENGLAND being multicultural?
I said that it (morris) is an example of Englishmen practising someone else's culture. It BECAME English, which you refuse to accept can happen with anything nowadays.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

WAV, by this point everyone involved in these threads of yours have read your life's work-it's the only way you know how to answer a question put to you. Your continued failure to answer direct questions is verification that you have no qualification to speak on these matters. Why on earth do you insist on driving a wedge into matters that you have limited understanding of? Never mind us on this forum, but you have even brushed aside the words of two professional English folk musicians, Chris Parkinson and Eliza Carthy. For fuck's sake, they have been playing this music their entire lives. Eliza in particular, has been immersed in it since her birth, yet you refuse to heed their words, as well as those of people like Reg Hall, who have studied this music their entire lives. You are a baffling man WAV. No poetry is going to get you out of your stubborness.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 11:58 AM

To Phil, I disagree with your hypothesis, and refer you, also, to my life's work

I think that's our answer, ladies and gents. Personally I'd call that a "no comment". It can mean one of two things:

The fella's a racist and scared to admit it.

The fella's not a racist and scared to admit it.

I'm bored with this. Off for a kebab and to listen a bit of bhangra.

Just because I can.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:00 PM

Firstly, immigration is not the subject of this thread, but, when people have asked, I have made brief attempts to answer; it is a complex issue - there are different kinds, of course, for starters: economic, medical (someone may be far healthier in the climate of another country), falling in love on holiday, genuine assylum seeking...the UN should take control, in my opinion.
To Volgadon: if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful. (Then Sedayne, gets angry at the slightest hint of the fact that there has been acts of terrorism recently).
To IE: I don't like you swearing; Eliza is good at her own culture, she is good at other cultures, and she is good at fusing them - I wish she'd just stick to the former (and she'll probably join Sedayne, any second.)

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:06 PM

I think the assertion that WAV is being racist is really an attempt by the PC's to dodge their own positional problem. They don't seem to have any reason for there NOT being a degree in English Folk Music (which might include discussing the definition of it and the sources of the music) which points only to the idea that they somehow think that English folk music is less worthy than other nations' folk music which do have degrees about them.

I don't think he has suggested that only the English should study English music (has he?). What he has said is that there hould be equal opportunity or those who wish to study folk music to study English folk music as any other folk music - which at present there is not because even at Newcastle the options of English music are only part-course options.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,21centuryfolkie
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:10 PM

"please spend (half) a day in your life and read my life's work."

ok, just did.

errrrmmm.. well.. checked your "Myspace" link.

I did at least manage to listen to a recorder intro and first verse..

hmmmm..!!???

Sorry, but as much as I can appreciate the concept
of 'outsider' music and art.....

I must be truthfull.

If I ever seriously consider the prospect of studying Folk music
at any higher college.
Judging by how you choose to represent yourself and ideas
in public media.
I'd now be very concerned about signing up for a 3 or 4 year course
if I knew in advance someone like you
were employed as one of the principal lecturers.

Sorry for being so harsh, but there you go.....

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: irishenglish
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM

WAV, you don't like me swearing, but it's not banned on Mudcat. It is asylum, not assylum. Your comment about Eliza is proof that despite it all, your personal wish would be that no English musician should play other material, ever.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM

"To Volgadon: if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful."
So, you DON'T want a multicultural England. Why couldn't you just come right out and say so? I'd respect your opinions a lot more if you were honest and open.
What happens if the UN says let's INCREASE immigration to England?
Anyway, who wants a remote organization to take control of immigration. Things will get worse, as the world is too VAST for one organization to deal with. Immigration will end up being decided on even more of an arbitrary basis.

Richard Bridge, there is equal opportunity. If you want to take the modules, take them. Maybe out of 500 students you will only get five who specialise in English music, but they will be dedicated enthusiasts. I'd rather have those five than 500 resentful students who now loathe the sight and sound of English music because they were force-fed it. Hopefuly more universities across the country will open up programs like the Newcastle one.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

Then Sedayne, gets angry at the slightest hint of the fact that there has been acts of terrorism recently

Could you please clarify this statement, WAV? Otherwise - terrorism isn't an issue of ethnicity or immigration, surely? We're dealing with human individuals here, criminals for sure, but not racial stereotypes however the media choose to present it.

As for assimilation; this will happen to a greater or lesser extent over however many hundreds of years, or even generations, but it is not the inevitable outcome of a multi-cultural / racial society, nor yet even desirous. Who is assimilated by whom? Personally, I dig the diversity.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 12:57 PM

I think that's our answer, ladies and gents.

And a very fine answer it is too. An answer for all occasions. For example, did you know that Bert Lloyd wrote "Where did you sleep last night"? Moreover, Woody Guthrie was Welsh, Martin Carthy is known to his friends as 'Trevor' and Davy Graham didn't actually play on Folk roots, new routes. May I also point out that roses are beige, violets are green and not wanting a black family to move in next door is in no way racist.

And if you want to challenge any of those statements, well, phooey to you. I disagree with your hypothesis, and refer you, also, to my life's work.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:27 PM

Wav,
Ruth answered your question on why the degree course appears to lack English content. Perhaps she did it in too many words for you?

BUMS ON SEATS. ECONOMICS. If there were fifty sixth formers all wanting to do an English Folk Music degree Vic et al would have very little choice in the matter. He and his staff are well qualified to run such a course. However if that is not the case and there are a number of willing students from a few miles further north who are they to turn them down.


This apart I know plenty of graduates of this course who are performing very well English Folk Song currently on the folk scene!!

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:31 PM

I may be wrong but I don't think you can do the entire Newcastle course just in English music. I don't think you can assemble that many modules in it.

And in any event, if 500 students signed up for a course in English folk music, why would they resent getting it?

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:48 PM

WAV said," To Volgadon: if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful"

Here's the proof if anymore proof were neded, that WAV is racist, and you know what, WAV if you don't like me saying that, do something about it. It'll make no difference, you are what your are and all your attempts at silencing people means nothing.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:02 PM

There we go again - I give a frank answer, then get words put in my mouth; and false defamatory language (please note Moderator) again from Def Shepard; I have questioned immigration which is NOT racism; I love the world being multicultural, as should be clear if you bother to read my life's work.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:11 PM

You know what you are,and you are an absolutely dreadful poet, I'm not the least interested in your so called 'lifes work', My aim is to end the racist and xenophobic behaviour that exists in Britan and always has been, it's part of my job, part of what I do for a living. I'll also continue to fight for a fully multicultural Britain. Get used to it.

And Richard Bridge, your English Folk Degree? The Newcastle degree programme covers this area already. Are you one of those bureaucrats who have this urge to create make work projects? You know, the ones that really annoy the British tax-payers? Sounds like it to me.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

"if immigration to England slows down, there will be more assimilation, things will become less multicultural, and I think that would be better/more peaceful"

WAV, this statement is not "questioning immigration". You are saying that if England were less multicultural, it would be better. That is racist. Be honest with yourself (and us).

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:20 PM

WAV, you've avoided directly answering my questions. You side-step. Refute what I said, if it isn't true.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM

I have questioned immigration which is NOT racism

You have questioned immigration on what appear to be racist grounds, and then repeatedly - nay, doggedly - refused to do anything to dispel that appearance.

But frankly, after your contemptuous treatment of my last question (that's half an hour of my life I won't get back), I don't feel any need to treat your comments with any more consideration. You're a racist, David; your comments here have made that abundantly clear to most of us, if not, yet, to yourself. I'm not going to engage with you any further.

Subject: RE: English Folk Degree?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Ditto.