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BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO

The Sandman 24 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM
The Sandman 24 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM
The Sandman 25 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,nugent dirt 25 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM
Gulliver 25 Apr 08 - 07:38 PM
The Sandman 26 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM
The Sandman 26 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM
Connacht Rambler 27 May 08 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 27 May 08 - 11:01 AM
John MacKenzie 27 May 08 - 11:03 AM
Paul Burke 27 May 08 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 27 May 08 - 11:17 AM
Rapparee 27 May 08 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 27 May 08 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Amos 28 May 08 - 07:36 AM
John MacKenzie 28 May 08 - 07:57 AM
The Sandman 28 May 08 - 08:07 AM
Gulliver 28 May 08 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Eutopia 28 May 08 - 06:29 PM
Gulliver 06 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM
Rapparee 06 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM
Connacht Rambler 08 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM
ard mhacha 08 Jun 08 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 09 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM
ard mhacha 09 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 09 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 13 Jun 08 - 07:56 AM
Gulliver 13 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 13 Jun 08 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 13 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM
Gulliver 13 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM
Paul Burke 13 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM
The Sandman 13 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM
Zen 13 Jun 08 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 08 - 10:09 AM
Zen 13 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM
Irene M 13 Jun 08 - 10:31 AM
The Sandman 13 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM
Terry McDonald 13 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM
Arnie 13 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM
Teribus 13 Jun 08 - 11:24 AM
Gulliver 13 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 13 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM
nickp 13 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM
theleveller 13 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 11:44 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band 13 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM
Nickhere 13 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM
Nickhere 13 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM
Def Shepard 13 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 01:03 PM
Def Shepard 13 Jun 08 - 01:05 PM
Gulliver 13 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM
Nickhere 13 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM
Nickhere 13 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 01:29 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM
Def Shepard 13 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 08 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Willy Nilly 13 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM
The Sandman 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 08 - 06:05 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 08 - 06:29 PM
Peace 13 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM
Connacht Rambler 13 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 08 - 07:13 PM
bfdk 13 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 08 - 07:42 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Jun 08 - 10:20 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 08 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Mr Grumpy 14 Jun 08 - 12:27 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jun 08 - 02:20 AM
Amos 14 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 14 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM
Roberto 14 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,tony geen 14 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,JTT 14 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM
Gulliver 14 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Lochronan 14 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM
Nickhere 14 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM
Nickhere 14 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 14 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Jun 08 - 10:11 PM
Rapparee 14 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 14 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 08 - 03:31 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 08 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,JTT 15 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM
Gulliver 15 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jun 08 - 06:57 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 08 - 01:00 AM
Mr Happy 19 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM
Wolfgang 19 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM
Rog Peek 19 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

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Subject: BS:E. U .lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM

In Ireland we have been given the opportunity to vote yes or no on the lisbon treaty.
as I understand it Irish farmers will be disadvantaged.
plus future generations can be conscripted to fight for a European army.
at the present time Ireland is a neutral country
should we vote yes or no.


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM

Nothing in the Treaty bears on conscription.
"Common Foreign and Security Policy... would not affect the existing legal basis, responsibilities and powers of each Member State in relation to the formulation and conduct of its foreign policy, the national diplomatic service, relations with third countries and participation in international organisations, including a Member State's membership of the Security Council of the UN."
"The Conference also notes that the provisions covering CFSP do not give new powers to the Commission to initiate decisions or increase the role of the European Parliament. The Conference also recalls that the provisions governing the CFSP do not prejudice the specific character of the security and defense policy of the Member States."
See http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/glance/index_en.htm and other internet articles.

I know nothing of the current or proposed agreements on agriculture, and wouldn't understand their import unless I was involved in European agriculture.


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:20 PM

I am not allowed to vote,despite being here,18 years.
unless I pay 600 euros,to become eligible.


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 09:57 AM

the leaflets seem designed to be unintelligible.
my instinct is not to trust Peter Mandelson


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: GUEST,nugent dirt
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

Nobody should trust Mandelson but Captain if your from the UK you dont have to pay anything to register to vote in Ireland. Im not sure where you got that infomromation. Only trouble is that you should have done it last November!


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: Gulliver
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:38 PM

One aspect of this referendum that I find disturbing is the number of exreme right-wing organizations using it to gain publicity for their causes, because Ireland is the only country to hold a referendum. My impression from the Internet over the past few weeks is that stirring up trouble are the BNP from the UK, neo-Nazis from Germany and Eastern Europe, anti-Illuminati organizations from the US and racist, anti-immigrant and islamaphobic groups from all over the place.

They all say they oppose the treaty because it's bad for Ireland, and some of them have established "front" groups here (Ireland) and on the Internet, but I'll bet most (all?) of them were totally ignorant of the country until they heard about the referendum and jumped on the bandwagon (and they'll disappear just as quickly into their rat-holes after the referendum).

Of course there are also Irish organizations that fit the above political description that are using the referendum to further their own ends. And in all fairness, politicians on all sides of the political spectrum are giving it some welly.

The problem is that good folk (like myself!) who oppose the treaty for their own good reasons could be lumped in with these (I'll be polite) crackpots.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 05:23 AM

I am allowed to vote in general elections ,I am not allowed to vote on matters concerning the constitution,neither was I allowed to vote on the abortion referendum.
it costs money to become an Irish citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: lisbon treaty
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM

quite funny,
I received a bulletin on my space from ceol agus craic,stating that we should vote no on this treaty,and then suggesting all brits should be kicked out of ireland.
now I am in favour of a united Ireland,even though I cant vote on certain matters.and if I had proper democratic rights I would have voted no.
it seems I would have some strange bedfellows, I dont fancy being kicked out of Ireland.


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Subject: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:53 AM

On June 12, Ireland holds a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which governs how the EU will be run for decades to come. Only one per cent out of a population of 486 million in 27 countries, will actually get to vote on the Treaty. I just can't understand how 26 countries can bypass their democratic right to decide on Lisbon.

If the Treaty is passed, we will have the familiar photos and video of the Taoiseach Brian Cowen signing a treaty on behalf of the rest of us. Even though he has admitted he has not read the treaty in full.

At least our man in Brussells should be up to the job. No. Irish EU Commissioneer Charlie McCreevy also admitted he had not read the Treaty and disturbingly added that no "sane, sensible person" would be expected to read it!

So, who has read it? And should we sign something we don't understand? Does anybody care?


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:01 AM


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:03 AM

Welcome to the USE, the United States of Europe.

All it lacks is four letters to make the name have the ring of truth, and they are; less.


USELESS


Vote against it please, I voted for a trading bloc, not a gravy train for Eurocrats, and the removal of self determination.

IT'S GONE TOO FAR !

I wish now that I had voted NO.


G


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Inappropriately above the line, unless you've written a song about it?

However, we know that no British government would dare to have a vote on it because they know that it would be thrown out by a massive margin. So to keep their place at top table, they've got to find a way of showing that it's not a treaty at all, so it's all right. That way, they get to keep playing with the big boys.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:17 AM

Damn it!. Hit the wrong Button.
Yes Connacht Rambler. There are millions of us who care; those like myself who feel deep frustration in not being able to influence a truly parliamentary decision and those who care, on the other side of the coin, and are content to see the Treaty( the Constitution in all but name) ratified. It is my earnest hope that the Irish voter will give a resounding rejection at the referendum and offer Brown the opportunity to escape from his dishonsesty by claining the Irish scuppered the deal and therefore there is no need to hold one over here. Blair escaped the referendum on the first constitution vote when other European nations rejected it, automatically booting the idea into touch.
Brown is dishonest - stealing a parliamentary promised referendum.
Brown is a stranger to the truth - I saw his lips move.
Brown is deluded - he actually believes people trust and believe him.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:39 PM

From what I've learn of it, I'd vote Sein Fein.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:28 PM

As far as I'm concerned, I'd need a lawyer (which I can't afford) to advise me on this, so, as I don't understand it, the rule 'if in danger or in doubt - vote no' applies! If it's so important, sitting on the fence is not an option, after all ,isn't that how dictators gain power?


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:36 AM

I'd like to hear more of the views from non-irish nationals. the weight of this treaty for all of europe is on our shoulders, quite unfairly, considering that it was already defeated by other Europeans. A democracy isn't a democracy if your vote is removed from you for voting the "wrong" way. As a result we have unelected EU beurocrats threatening us (Jose Barrosso: Ireland will pay the price http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/vote-yes-or-well-all-pay--price-eu-chief-warns-1388158.html) Can any English / French / German etc advise us how they would vote and why?


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:57 AM

NO

The destruction of our steel industry
The destruction of our coal industry
The destruction of our fishing industry
The chlorinification of out water
The uneven application of the rules
The ignoring of the rules
The 'gold plating' of the rules
The ham stringing/hand tying of local authorities.
The increase in the council tax to fund the stupid universal new laws.
Laws that suit one country but not others being rigorously applied across all member states.
The CAP being run for the benefit of the French farmer.
The enormous fraud that goes on amongst both officials and others.
The refusal of the auditors to sign off the accounts for the last umpteen years.
Fish that are under the legal size for fishermen to catch, being openly displayed for sale in European fish markets.


I could go on.


Giok


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:07 AM

if I was allowed to vote, I would vote no.I am really pissed off I cant vote,I have been here 18 years.
but I am hoping my step children who can vote. will vote no.
most of the farming community in my area are against it.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Gulliver
Date: 28 May 08 - 09:33 AM

This was discussed with Jens-Peter Bonde on RTE radio this morning. Some discussion and links are on this site:
www.politics.ie

Jens-Peter Bonde, a Danish MEP since 1979, I believe, definitely wants a "No" vote.

Don


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Eutopia
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:29 PM

It's not just one treaty. The Lisbon Treaty references a load of other treaties that came before. It would take you months to get through the lot of them, and you probably still wouldn't know where you stood. Better to join the Dutch and the French on the Nice Treaty and vote NO.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Gulliver
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:03 AM

From today's Irish Times.

Despite the poll results, I'm very sceptical that the No vote will be successful on the day.

Don

THE LISBON Treaty could face a shock rejection with the No side now in the lead, according to the findings of the latest Irish Times /TNS mrbi poll.

It will take an unprecedented swing in the last week of the campaign for the treaty to be carried.

The poll shows the number of people intending to vote No has almost doubled to 35 per cent (up 17 points) since the last poll three weeks ago, while the number of the Yes side has declined to 30 per cent (down 5 points).

The number of undecided voters is still a significant 28 per cent (down 12 points) while 7 per cent won't vote.

The massive increase by the No vote since the last poll has mainly come through gains among undecided voters but, even more ominously for the Yes side, it has lost some support to the No camp.

While the final outcome is still in the hands of undecided voters, the clear momentum is now with the No campaign and it will take a dramatic shift in public attitudes over the next few days for the Yes side to win.

The swing to the No camp has not been prompted by domestic considerations, with just 5 per cent of those opposed to the treaty saying they are influenced by a desire to protest against the Government.

The reason most often cited by No voters is that they don't know what they are voting for or they don't understand the treaty - with 30 per cent of No voters listing this as the main reason for their decision.

The poll was conducted last Tuesday and Wednesday among a representative sample of 1,000 voters in face-to-face interviews at 100 sampling points in all 43 constituencies


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM

It seems to me -- and I'm very much an outsider who simply read and listened while I was in Ireland -- that if a country (such as Ireland and, I think, Portugal) will have no representation on the Commission except for a rotation the country will not be represented.

This seems to be an attempt by the large countries (France, Germany, etc.) to dominate the EU by blocking the votes of the smaller countries (Ireland, Portugal, etc.).

I see no reason for the "big boys" to impose their will on the little fellas. That's not equality, it's bullying.

But as I said, I'm not directly involved and like Will Rogers, "I only know what I read in the newspapers."


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM

I agree with Amos. I'd like to hear more from non-Irish EU citizens, particularly disenfranchised French, Germans, Swedes etc. Why are they taking this lying down? Have they given up on democracy?


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:50 AM

When most of the farming community are against it then I would vote Yes.
Explanation required,from the Irish Republic joined the EU they have become the fastest growing economy in Europe,there seemed to be no end to the advances in industry, granted, world recession has hit the economy, but the results of the past few years are there to be seen.
The Republic has been swamped with countless nationals all seeking work and it seems succeeding, as the population expands not too many non-Irish are returning to their homelands.
I fail to see the reason for the No vote.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM

As a matter of interest, does anyone know why Ireland is the only country having a referendum?


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:33 PM

Another goosd reason for voting Yes, the US would prefer to see a complete melt-down of European unity, witness the latest cranky yankee to stick his nose in John Bolton former US ambassador to the UN,, he stated that a `Yes` vote in Thursdays referendum could `impact on the military alliance of European countries with the US`.
Bolton was the war-mongering nazi who gave Bush his support on Iraq.


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM

The more I'm hearing, the more I'm convinced of a 'No' vote (were I entitled to vote)!


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:56 AM

It's looking like the 'No's' have won it!

I think this was all about a) the Irish people considering that they were being ridden over roughshod b)the whole thing was a complete dog's breakfast by the EU & Irish Government, not enough was explained what it was all about until the very last minute, and then, we only seemed to get half the story; people were, not surprisingly very suspicious, especially after the Bertie Ahern debacle and general mistrust in the government after the Shannon Airport scandal in the West, amongst other things. I think they just felt they wanted some kind of revenge and this was a channel to do it!


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Subject: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM

All the indications from around the country indicate that the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty has produced a victory for the NO campaign. All the working-class constituencies in Dublin and Cork, and constituencies all along the Western sea-board have produced majorities for the NO vote, usually 55%-60% for NO, against 45%-50% for YES. So far, only middle-class constituencies in Dublin and Kildare have a YES majority.

I started a new thread on this topic due to its significance, not only for Ireland but for Europe. Around 10 of the 27 member countries have ratified the Lisbon treaty so far, but none of them with a referendum, Ireland being the only country in the EU to hold one. But without Ireland's agreement the treaty cannot be ratified, as it needs a unanimous vote.

This result is probably unprecedented in Ireland: all the major political parties, almost all the trade unions and the employers' associations urged a YES vote on this issue, but were obviously rejected by the electorate. The Catholic Church remained largely neutral, as did, to the best of my knowledge, other religious groups.

In last week's poll by the Irish Times, which predicted a NO majority, the main reason given by the NO voters was that they did not understand the treaty. This reason was rejected, in somewhat arrogant tones, by the spokesmen for the proponents of the treaty, but they are now realizing that they got it wrong.

What next for Europe?

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:24 AM

I think this is a good thing for Ireland and Europe as it demonstrates that the electorate are not prepared to be ridden over roughshod by beauracracy. This is true democracy in action! A lot of people who didn't understand what it was all about were advised to vote 'Yes', otherwise, all kinds of unpleasant things COULD happen, so, they felt intimidated. I'm glad it has backfired on those people who gave that kind of advice.

If more time had been given and the facts had been presented in a more effective way, things could have turned out very differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

P.S. I can't really see why you needed to start another thread, 'Gulliver', what was wrong with the other one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM

The first thread discussed the run-up to the referendum in Ireland and the implications of voting yes or no. Now that we know the result, it's a whole different ball-game, with implications that affect the future of Europe as much as Ireland. Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM

Some of us Over Here don't readily get news like this and I'm glad that this thread was begun. It would have been lost in the earlier one.

Rethink the Treaty, educate the public, and resubmit it to the voters if it's important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

They wouldn't have resubmitted the vote if the answer had been yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM

Good point, Paul.

The more I had "VOTE YES" shoved in my face - and we all did (on every single lamp pole along the main national road into the city, how much did that cost the taxpayers?) and much else - the more resistance I felt to being simultaneously manipulated and under-informed (bad combination, that). Multiple emails circulating from the top brass at the educational institution where I teach, politically-interested bodies, all crying Say Yes!!! and exhorting us to Get Out There And Vote!!!!!!!!!

Well, I got out there and voted, all right. A resounding NO, which I X'd in so hard that it almost cut through the ballot paper. Less than a hundred years ago people died for Irish independence. Why give it away now? Why give it away ever? Why give away our enfranchisement? Why should we let the politicians decide what we want and do our voting for us? The Taoiseach has just been thrown out of office for lying and corruption. What's that tell you?

Anybody catch Brian Lenihan (Fianna Fáil TD for Dublin West*) on the telly trying to speak over a booming chorus of shouted NO-NO-NO's from the bystanding populace and getting utterly drowned out, even with mics shoved right up his gob? The only words I caught were him moaning about not being allowed freedom of speech. Freedom of speech????!!!!! Listen all around you, Brian. It's drowning you out, mate.   

Bonnie in The People's Republic Of Cork (returning the highest NO percentage so far)

*Returns just in a few minutes ago from Lenihan's own constituency: One-two-three, all together now: NO


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:51 AM

thats made my day.especially as Icouldnt vote but would have voted no.
the bookmakers had a yes vote 1 to 5 on.
so agood result for them too,Iwonder what the odds were for ano vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:00 AM

Whatever the final result in Ireland I would have preferred that the political and economic future of 495 million people in the whole of the EU could have been influenced by an overall majority of the EU-wide electorate rather than just 1.3 million voters in Ireland (whether that outcome would have been yes or no).

Zen (expatriated Irishman)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:09 AM

The other 459 million of us were not allowed to vote.
Our masters decreed that our acceptance was not required.
Thanks Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Zen
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

I know that. I agree with you. The problem is a lack of proper democracy. The outcome of the Irish vote doesn't solve that basic problem.

Zen


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM

I think you mean "thanks masters". It wasn't the Irish who denied you a voice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:14 AM

I am thanking the Irish for throwing it back at them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM

Wooops sorry, I misread it as sarcasm -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM

Wonder how long it'll be before they try again under a new guise -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Irene M
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:31 AM

Phew. Thank you Ireland.
Anything that keeps the EU from becoming a sodding great dictatorship is fine by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:46 AM

only four votes decided it in carlow /kilkenny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

Hi Bonnie - the new guise will start 1 July when the French take over the Presidency.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Arnie
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM

The latest on BBC news is that Gordon Brown has said that Ireland's NO vote doesn't change a thing. He phoned Sarkozy this lunchtime and said that both the UK and France should continue ratifying the treaty which is going through both Parliaments at present. What a total waste of taxpayers' money and parliamentary time. What will be achieved when the treaty is ratified in the UK and France? It still can't be implemented thanks to our Irish friends. I suppose what it does show is exactly what would have happened in the UK if we'd been allowed to vote on the EU Constitution - whoops sorry, I meant Lisbon Treaty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:24 AM

Well done the people of Ireland in saying no to this weasely attempt at pushing through something that the people of France and the Netherlands had previously rejected in its former guise as the European Constitution.

Of course the population of the UK were promised a vote on this as well but Blair/Gordon of Cartoon back-tracked and reneged on their promise - and that will not be forgiven when the next General Election comes along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM

The President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, will make a statement in about two hours time on the result of the Irish referendum--he's been working on it all afternoon.

Eamonn Gilmour of the Labour Party said that his party would not support an attempt to have another referendum on the Treaty.

I think we'll have to wait until France takes over the Presidency in a few weeks time to see what the outcome will be in Europe. One thing that did not help the YES side in the referendum was a statement a couple of weeks ago by a French diplomat (it may have been Sarkozy) that Ireland would "suffer" if she did not deliver a YES vote (sorry I can't provide further details--I heard it on the radio). This got peoples' backs up (of course France, along with the Netherlands, voted to reject the EU Constitution three years ago, upon which all further voting on it was canceled).

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:34 AM

To Bonnie Shaljean in The Rebel County:

Bet you're now even more glad that your Home-Grown Ascendancy didn't manage to get their Electronic Voting System up-and-running-in-the-way-they-want; I deduce from your earlier posting that there's still a "paper trail". Just think what could have happened without the opportunity to mark real pieces of paper, but instead touch an icon on a little screen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: nickp
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM

Well done the people of Ireland! If only Gordon Brown would give us the chance to say NO as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM

"....a lack of proper democracy..."

Pretty much sums up the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:44 AM

A French spokeswoman said on TV a couple of hours ago (sorry, don't know who she was) that Ireland should be "grateful" to the EU because it was the poorest nation in Europe when it joined. (I would need to investigate that statement for factual accuracy before taking it as truth.)

And the relevance to this issue is... ??? "Grasping" and "straws" come to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:45 AM

Yep, definitely a paper trail. But I voted in a little old village hall out in the country -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,John from Elsie`s Band
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

Well done Ireland! This certainly gets the toe-rag Gordon Brown off the hook, he, like Blair, being able to justify his denial of Britain`s promised referendum because somebody else has done the dirty work. You will recall the relief for Blair when France and Holland kicked the constitution into touch.
CAVEAT!! You now watch those scallywags (polite word for bastards) in Brussels cook up some process that they will legitimise allowing the process to rumble forward and sidestep the democratic Irish wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

Congratulations, Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 11:53 AM

First the Eurovision, now the EU... what other Big Bad E will come along next?

(Elections? Nope, had those...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:14 PM

Yes, Bonnie, that was disgraceful about 'the poorest nation in Europe when we joined'. Our political masters kept on hammering away at 'look at all the great stuff Ireland got from the EU'. Yes, we did benefit, but there was also some give: look at our fisheries. We gave up fishing rights to huge stretches of national waters, that are now estimated to have been worth billions. Agriculture has also been decimated here.

There were lots of reasons to vote No

1. The rest of Europe wasn't being given a chance to vote either way, and the wishes of the French and Dutch were being ignored. No 'treaty' that claims to lay the basis for a more democratic and transparent Europe could dare to be introduced in such a way.

2. As usual a highly complex legalistic document, which was in fact a series of amendments to other legalistic documents, was aggressively pushed on us by our over beraing leaders as late in the day as possible (toi minimise the chances of people actually reading it and debating it)

3. If you don't understand something, it doesn't make sense to sign up to it.

4. Nonetheless there was plenty that could be understood quite clearly in the treaty:
a. a further shift of power from soveriegn governemnts to an unelected and undemocratic Commission.
b. Loss of our own commisioner for 2 out of every 3 years - for what, in return?
c. A move to qualified majority voting that would see Ireland's vote reduced in Europe - again, for what in return?
Some people say the last point is only fair, given comparative sizes of EU populations. Perhaps, but that belies the thinking of Europe as a federation rather than an association of sovereign independent states.
d. A bigger push to increase privatisation and reduce 'distortion of the markets' that will eventually see more and more basic services in private hands (for profit) and an abandonment of any concept of a state providing for its people. Of course no doubt we'll still be expected to pay income tax!

5. The bullying tones of our leaders and EU leaders - all that dark muttering about 'consequences' for voting the wrong way. Who the **** do they think they are? Are we supposed to be the serfs, just going through a charade of rubber stamping what they tell us to?

6. All the main parties - except Sinn Fein, well done to them - banded together for a Yes vote. Amazing how they can all throw their weight in behind something when it's important enough to them. Pity that the health system and rampant inflation are so way down on their scale of priorities.

7. I was really disgusted by all the smear camapaigning that went on against the main organistaion with the money to campaign for a No vote: Libertas. The main party politicians used clever rhetoric to suggest the money was coming from the US to prevent a united Europe: "I won't say the CIA is behind it..." (nonetheless I've planted the idea in your head). They spent more time cribbing about where did Libertas get their money than explaining what was so bloody good about the Lisbon treaty. This, ironically from a party whose ex-leader's recent explanation for the large amounts of cash he kept in a shoe box in his cupboard because he didn't trust the banks, was that he had had a couple of lucky bets on the horses (I kid you not).

8. For all of these reasons and more they got a well-deserved kick up the ass. They seem to regard this country as a personal fiefdom to be run at their whim under a system of 'surrender and regrant' from Europe. we have a word here to describe them: SHONEENS. If you are ever visiting here and you happen to see one, please do me the favour of shouting it at them as you pass by.

Well done to all who voted No. But watch out for Lisbon, part II!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:18 PM

And before i forget, it really annoyed me to hear politicians accuse No campaigners of not wanting to be in the heart of Europe. Rubbish! Of course I want to be in Europe! My wife is Italian, and our romance was facilitated by the easy travel and living arrangements between our respective countries. Europe has brought a lot of good things. But the real question is what KIND of Europe did I want to be at the heart of, and certainly it wasn't the anti-democratic one proposed by the Lisbon Treaty / rehashed EU Constitution. Come back with something written in plain English that puts people, and not big corporations first, and maybe I'll consider it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Def Shepard
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM

"Wonder how long it'll be before they try again under a new guise - "

Not long I'll warrant and mor etax-payers money will go down the plug 'ole with the baby


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:41 PM

Then get rid of your government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

Tried to (same village hall, same little bit of paper) but lost. Then what? Getting rid of a government - by any acceptable means - is easier said than done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:03 PM

I know that. We have Stephen Harper and his damned Conservatives in Canada. Only thing protecting most Canadians is the fact he has a minority government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Def Shepard
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:05 PM

Well with us in Britain it's either "New" Labour or the Conservatives and to be quite honest, at times, it's very hard to tell the difference :-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:09 PM

Nickhere, another factor was that highlighted by Senator Shane Ross (who's views I would not normally be sympathetic too!), that of the Common Consolidated Tax Base (CCTB), which Nicolas Sarkozy's finance minister, Christine Lagarde, said she would re-visit as soon as France got the Presidency. At the time she said she "hadn't met any Irish people that were afraid of anything. It has been going on for a long time, it's an issue that we are determined to push."

This frightened the government as it would affect Ireland's tax status--both France and Germany want it changed. In deference to the government, the Commission agreed at the summit in December not to publish a draft directive on a harmonised corporate tax base until after the Irish referendum, in case it might upset the applecart, even though the taxation Commissioner Laszlo Kovacs said last year his preference was to publish it in the spring of 2008.

Now, Sarkozy's spokesperson has just said that Ireland will have to have another referendum, saying he has "no doubt that Ireland's leaders should be capable of persuading to vote in favour of the Treaty".


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:22 PM

Gulliver, indeed, just like with Nice. The chicanery and stage-managing is believably unbelievable (if you know what I mean). That's one of the worst things about the direction the EU is going in - 'one size fits all'. there's nothing to stop Germany cutting its corporate tax rate if it wnated to, they would then just have the same problems as us funding proper health care etc., and I wonder how long the Germans would put up with that.

They claimed there would be no plan B', which was an obvious lie. What did they think? That we would believe in the event of a No vote they would all just retire and fade away into obscurity? There's always been a Plan B and it's just push the same agenda again, more forcefully and more sneakily. But at least Ireland has shown the way, the next step is for voters in other EU countries to kick up a stink and demand their own referendums. To do that, they need to start preparing for the next elections now and putting skids on the delinquents that currently inhabit their parliments.

In relation to that one group that has been a new success here has been ''People Before Profit Alliance" a kind of coalition of various groups that have camapaigned at street level over the years against privatistaion, stealth taxes, democratic unnaccountability and so on. they have managed to finally plug a recurrent weakness of the left: fragmentation. Maybe branches could be set up in other countries? (I think there's one in the US already)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM

Just to confirm, the Lisbon Treaty has been rejected in Ireland by a margin of 100,000 votes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM

> Sarkozy's spokesperson has just said that Ireland will have to have another referendum, saying he has "no doubt that Ireland's leaders should be capable of persuading to vote in favour of the Treaty".

"Persuading"? Does this spokesperson have any idea how hard they tried this time? I can't remember when I last saw such a propaganda campaign. (Not to mention funded it with my taxes.)

There's something deeply repellent in the idea of a government needing to resort to "persuasion" tactics to induce its people to act (as many believe) against their own interests. The wider this dichotomy, the more it smells.

What are they going to do, make us an offer we can't refuse? The whole reason we HAVE a referendum here is because it's in our Constitution. And the whole reason we have a Constitution is ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:29 PM

Wanna bet they have electronic voting machines for the next vote?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:43 PM

My old farmhouse (I kid you not) only got ELECTRICITY in 1960 - the last ESB pole stops at the edge of my land. Running water was the real johnny-come-lately, 1981. (The well out back still has water in it.) Let 'em just try it... I'll run over 'em with my horse & cart -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Def Shepard
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

Now, Now, Bonnie, it'll be a speeding ticket next :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:16 PM

"I'll run over 'em with my horse & cart"

I am aware of horses. We in Canada have 'em, too. But what's a cart?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:25 PM

As an outsider (N. Am) I don't know the ramifications, so no way I could judge.
Cooperation is fine, but it seems some constitutional changes would be necessary, and some old familiar habits changed, according to the BBC analysts.
This made be wonder if the treaty wasn't a step too far, and that the terms need to be re-thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:22 PM

From talking to people in pubs, in hotels, in B&Bs, in shops, on the street, I would have voted "No." I don't think anyone has enough representation, real representation, now.

As for changing the government, remember Tone, Emmett, Pearse, Connelly, McDermott, Plunkett....


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Willy Nilly
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:28 PM

Thus was quoted "Now, Sarkozy's spokesperson has just said that Ireland will have to have another referendum, saying he has "no doubt that Ireland's leaders should be capable of persuading to vote in favour of the Treaty".

Well the French most certainly don't represent Ireland's interests, so perhaps they should keep their noses out of other nation's politics, they don't much like when 'ousiders' dare to make comments about French government policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

"French government policies."

They have policies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

Maybe that's a typo for "police"


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 05:32 PM

I haven't been everywhere, but I think I was never more disturbed by armed cops than in France. I mean, cops carrying both a pistol AND a submachine gun? Regularly? Our cops carry pistols and have more firepower available, but only the pistols are usually carried openly. And no gun store I've ever seen in the States displayed an FALN assault rifle in the window, like the one did in Bordeaux.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

friday 13, unlucky for the bureacrats and empire builders and fat cat politicians.
the labour party and fine gael,showed what establishment toadies they are.well done the Irish people and SinnFein.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

""The other 459 million of us were not allowed to vote.
Our masters decreed that our acceptance was not required.
Thanks Ireland.""

Damn right Keith.

Thank God for Ireland, and for the Irish government, the only government in Europe with the guts to give its people a voice, and the honesty to listen to that voice and refuse to give up the freedom won at great cost such a short time ago.

They have done the rest of us a great service.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:05 PM

"What are they going to do, make us an offer we can't refuse?"


Fortunately there aren't enough horses heads in the whole of Europe for that, Bonnie.

I just hope our own (UK) government are realising how they're going to pay for this at the next general election.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

There was a time when the Irish 'saved' the scrolls and writings of Old English from invaders who would have burned them. Maybe today we English speakers and users once again owe Ireland a thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

The EU has done some excellent things - it has pushed the development of sex discrimination law, of race discrimination law, of other discrimination laws against eg sex orientation, contract workers, and part time workers. It has gone some way to preventing wage slavery imposing 60 hour working weeks (except, unbelievably, for doctors).

It has failed to protect the rights of trade union workers and trade union agreements - Thatcher inspired legal technicalities still allow workers who stick to union negotiated agreements to be discriminated against.

It has proven utterly supine before the might of the digicrats. A little high profile posturing about the Microsnot monopoly, but tracing of users in case they go to unwelcomed websites (before long it will be the ones that support political change, just watch), exemptions for ISPs who cache material that infringes private rights, but the secret police for the ISP's who permit what the people really want - file sharing - and criminisation of the removal of "technical measures" that prevent people from exercising the rights they already enjoy under exceptions to copyright law.

More recently, the ECONOMIC community has bought wholesale into the management speak of privatisation that will make the citizen pay for infrastructure, but sell it to oligopolists so that they can force the citisens to pay again.

A curate's egg that requires urgent reform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:29 PM

There was a time when the Irish 'saved' the scrolls and writings of Old English from invaders who would have burned them.

Not strictly accurate, though in principle true enough - it was Latin writings and culture that were preserved in Ireland, and carried back to mainland Europe. The English hadn't got round to doing much writing at the time. In fact they were among the barbarian invaders engaged in destroying the remains of Roman civilisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:35 PM

Then you disagree with my Old English professor and not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Connacht Rambler
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:52 PM

I started the original, pre-referendum thread, but I'm happy with this one as it has stirred so many people to join in.
I am pro-EU. But if constitutional changes are being made which will have consequences for decades to come, I think it is all the people of Europe and not unelected officials or second-guessing representatives, who must decide (Look at the number of Irish TDs (MPs) who got it so wrong).
Now I just hope the rest of EU voters will stand up for their rights.
I realise that drafting a treaty that is understood and accepted by a EU-wide majority is not an easy task. That is the challenge France and Germany should be addressing instead of, as the latest news suggests, railroading through the Lisbon document.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:13 PM

I evidently do, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: bfdk
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:23 PM

A ressounding 'Whoppeee' from here, well done the Irish people!

I rejoice in this result. Our politicians here didn't have the guts to ask the Danish electorate. Had they, they might well have found us standing shoulder to shoulder with the Irish on this - and they knew..! I'm glad someone got the opportunity to throw a spanner in the works.

Bente


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 07:42 PM

For anyone curious about what the Lisbon Treaty actually says, here is an RTE page with a simplified version, annotations - and the full text, in Irish as well as English - "...if you have a lot of free time, patience and Solpadeine in your medicine cabinet, you can read the full version at the bottom of the page."

The BBC never bothers to provide this kind of stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:20 PM

>"What are they going to do, make us an offer we can't refuse?"
>Fortunately there aren't enough horses heads in the whole of Europe for that, Bonnie


It's the other end of the horse I'm worried about. There sure are enough of those.

I'm not anti-EU. I'm anti the Lisbon Treaty. One is not necessarily the same as the other. The abrogation of what I regard as basic human rights is what bothers me. Once gone, no amount of shouting and teeth-gnashing is going to get them back because: How do you do it, with no direct vote? If you allow your constitution - which is what gave us this referendum in the first place - to be neutered by those with outside interests? If you grant carte blanche solely to career politicians with their own agendas, which always will come ahead of yours? I believe the only reason the treaty was uniformly ratified by the other countries is because their populations were legally gagged. Is that the only way they can deal with the opposition? Give away your sovereignty and there IS no opposition. (That scenario remind you of anything?)

Economic issues - which fluctuate and always will - pale in comparison with having a voice in how your government governs you. Especially with so much dishonesty in high places, where they do it Because They Can. Why give them even more power to potentially abuse? Look what's happened already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:39 PM

I see no reason why the people of EU shouldn't toss the buggers-up out and put in new buggers-up. At least the new ones will have an example. Never give up a right or representation, not for security, not for money, not for anything. Freedom is too dearly bought to be entrusted to bureaucrats and politicians.

And the EU should look to the US for the truth about privatization. Our airlines are going bankrupt, our health care needs drastic reform, our financial institutions are hat-in-hand to the government, our industries have moved elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Mr Grumpy
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:27 AM

Your second paragraph, Rapaire, is spot on themoney - and seems to indicate, as Marx predicted, the crisis in capitalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM

I'm proud of you, Ireland.....Go mbeannai dia duit!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:20 AM

I'm proud of you Ireland....Go mbeannai dia duit!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:37 AM

As an aside the poster above who logged in as "Guest, Amos" was not meself, FWIW.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:31 AM

GUESS WHAT I've just read on Aertel (daily news headlines on TV fax pages): The Taoiseach has said that while he "respects" the decision of the Irish people, he cannot rule out the possibility of a second referendum. Can you believe it? (I can.) Someone remind me again why we are supposed to entrust our voting rights to politicians?

Dick, if I'm eligible for a place on the electoral register, so are you. Go down to the Citizen's Advice Bureau and find out how to get a card. I think it's going to be All hands to the pump -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM

Someone with an inside contact PLEASE persuade a clone to combine the two Lisbon threads - I've just PM'd Joe, but it's 3:30 in the morning there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

Bonnie - I'm a permanent resident of Ireland and I'm on the electoral register but, because I'm not an Irish citizen, I'm not allowed to vote on constitutional affairs (which is what this was)so I didn't get a polling card. This, at least, is the story as I understand it, I hope I'm correct!


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Roberto
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM

I'm saddened about the vote in Ireland against the European Treaty. I think that the traditional national state is too small to try to rule global economy and finance and the other big global issues. I think that the European Countries that want to go on building Europe must decide what to do, not necessarily with those who seem to reject further steps and maybe prefer to stay at the common market level. The so-called two-speeds Europe, not the best choice, but it is becoming the only opportunity not to stop the whole process. But Ireland is so dear to me that I'm very, very sorry for what happened. I'll have a pint to recover from that (and a couple more to recover for Italy's deeds in the European Cup and in its long economical, political, social crisis). Roberto


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST,tony geen
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM

As someone not noted for pro-EU sentiments, I will be having a theoretical pint of Guiness to celebrate. (Except I´m in Germany right now, and it´s all in litres here.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:39 AM

I'm also a permanent resident of Ireland with a British passport, and as a citizen of the UK, which means the European Union, I've always been allowed to vote. They send me the cards automatically, so I don't know why the descrepancy. But I can't see that I hold any eligibility that you and Dick don't. I'm not an Irish citizen either. I have an RSI number and all the other bureaucratic bumf, but that shouldn't make any difference. (Or does it?) Captain B and I have both lived in Ireland for about the same time period.

My partner is also a British citizen residing here and he got a card too. I've lived here a lot longer, but They found him somehow and sent him a card. Does it have to do with that RSI number? If so (and if you don't have one) you can apply, even if you're not employed under any PAYE system. Michael's self-employed and has never worked for an external salary/wage while he lived here - whatever applies to him should apply to others.

??? Worth finding out about, anyway -


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM

Roberto, the worrying issues are really about enfranchisement, not economics (not that those aren't worrying also).   As Guest Amos said, "A democracy isn't a democracy if your vote is removed from you". The only reason Ireland even has such power is its constitutional right of referendum. The fact that the only country with the right to vote on this treaty has rejected it tells you something - as does the fact that the other countries who have ratified it have done so without their populaces being consulted.

As I've said at some length in the other Lisbon thread (wish the clones would combine them), if you leave it to the career politicans to do your voting for you, what real power do you have? And whose agenda is going to come first? Not necessarily yours. That's what's on a lot of people's minds.

Whichever side of the debate one is on, your pint idea sounds good. So here's one to you c[]


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:12 AM

A thought has just struck me: When Michael and I went in to vote, we turned in our cards at the polling desk and both had to show I.D. Each of us presented our British passports, which were looked at and accepted with nary a peep. Surely that must mean that UK (i.e. European) citizens are eligible to vote? The Irish are enfranchised in Britain (though I don't know the finer details of it).

Wouldn't they have sent us packing upon sight of those lion-&-unicorn-encrusted maroon covers if we were required to be Irish citizens?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 09:37 AM

I am absolutely pro-EU.

Ireland *was* the poorest country in Europe, and the wonderful help we got from the EU certainly did help to lift us out of that.

(In exchange, they got our fishing rights, the richest in Europe, and their lunatic Common Fisheries Policy has left the seas denuded of fish, but for the dead bodies thrown back by the giant ships that vaccum up the whole sea bed, and throw back any fish outside their 'quota', dead.)

We are also grateful to the multinational companies that came and gave jobs when we had few. Now, of course, they're fleeing to somewhere cheaper, but let it pass.

The reasons we were to vote 'yes' seemed strange to me. The politicians said it would be impossible for 27 ministers to reach a consensus on every question, and so the number of permanent ministers (one from each country) had to be cut to 18.

What? Twenty-seven grown-up men and women can't negotiate and reach a consensus?

Then there were the sneaky bits about common defence policy and common taxes that no one wanted to explain. Some people denied they were in there; some said "Oh yes, but thye don't mean *that*".

Now the Eurocrats, furious at their will not being followed, are saying "Puh, the other 26 countries have ratified it" - not their people, but their parliaments - "and so they can go ahead and leave Ireland outside".

Showing their true colours, eh?

I even heard one person say on the radio that "Germany doesn't have referendums, because of their experience with the Third Reich". What???


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Subject: RE: Lisbon Treaty: It's up to the Irish
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM

Welcome to the discussion Roberto. I want to hear more from disenfranchised Europeans, of whatever persuasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

From the property pages in the Irish Times recently: The French government has decided to sell its embassy in Dublin.

Are they pulling out?

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Lochronan
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM

Last time they pulled out, after the Ballina races, the French officers and men were pardoned, sent home, and the Irish were executed! An earlier accord betwen the British and the French.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM

It's the French Ambassador's residence, which is worth a mint. (I like the bit about Sean Dunne making his fortune in the law courts.) More here:

Friday January 18 2008
IT'S a complaint most home-owners will not have heard before. As the French Ambassador's sumptuous residence in the heart of Dublin goes on the market with an exclusive price tag of €60m, he revealed the home is so vast he has to send out an SOS on his mobile phone to locate his wife.

The French Government has decided to sell the property, which boasts one of the most sought after addresses in the country at Ailesbury Road in the heart of Dublin's "Embassy mile''. It's Chancery offices across the road, with a mere price tag of €20m, has also been placed on the market.

The vast 40-room house, number 53, formerly known as Mytilene, sits on just under two acres and covers 11,450 sq ft of living space. It boasts a cellar of French wine, countless fireplaces, the first-floor private quarters of the Ambassador, a restaurant fit for a Michelin- star chef and a major drawing room for entertaining.

As the house, which dates from 1900 was put on the market, Ambassador Yvon Roe D'Albert, who is only in the post for six-months in Ireland, said it was a fabulous location for hosting events, with a dining room capable for comfortably seating 45 people and a drawing room which would hold 120 guests. However, he said it may not suit families. "It's so big, I have to call my wife on her mobile phone if I want to talk to her," he revealed.

According to Lisney's John O'Sullivan, there is "disbelief in the city that it is going on the market" after almost 80 years in the ownership of the French Government. He added: "We have been dealing with very interesting inquiries already."

That leafy region of the capital is already home to a number of wealthy developers such as Sean Dunne, and others who have made their fortunes in the law courts and technology companies.

As part of a worldwide downsizing move, the French Government has decided to sell off a number of properties. However, they will be looking for an alternative accommodation for their Ambassador and offices for staff in the Ballsbridge area. It is believed they may consider exchanging the property for an alternative building plus cash.

The Ailesbury Road house also claims a colourful history of a rags-to-riches story. Around 1840, a homeless boy, who was selling newspapers at Donnybrook Fair in Dublin, found a large sun of money. After tracing the owner, he was rewarded for his honesty. George Bustard then set sale for Australia where he made his fortune. He never lived to realise his dream of building a house close to the fair. However, he left strict instructions in his will for his family to pursue his wishes, even down to using the expensive white stone which makes the residence unique on the road.

The house was purchased by the French Government in 1930.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 02:05 PM

I combined our three threads on the Lisbon Treaty, since it's usually easier to follow a discussion if it's not trifurcated. I hope that's acceptable. If you want to know which message came from which thread, look at the message titles.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:05 PM

The Tiger economy???? Read the newspapers lately?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:05 PM

One of the best consolidated accounts of the Lisbon Treaty was publisehd around the start of June in Village Magazine (an current affairs monthly that also has a daily on-line version)


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Nickhere
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:12 PM

Bonnie, you say you have a UK passport and was allowed to vote in the referendum despite not being an Irish citizen (correct?)

Irish citizens are allowed to vote in local, EU, general elections and referenda on the constitution. Non-Irish citizens from the EU are allowed to vote in local and EU elections. That's the situation as far as I know.

People born in Northern Ireland are automatically granted dual citizenship - they of course hold British passports, but may also apply for an Irish one (as far as I ma aware). It may be that you were born in the north, or that the officials at the register assumed you were when they saw your passport, but I'm surprised they didn't check.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM

No idea. It all happened as I said it did. In fact I'm American-born and it's readily apparent from both my accent and my English partner's that neither of us was born here. Everyone in the village knows I'm a Yank, and it was a local people in the polling station. We voted in the general election too, and I've always received the cards, and never pretended to be other than what I am. Ditto Michael. If you want to discuss this further, can you PM me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:11 PM

Its all a bit vague.

one set of circumstances saved deValera from going the way of Connolly etc, and another set of circumstances got Lord haw Haw hanged.

Shouldn't enquire too closely if I were you, as its working out alright for you. You got to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:24 PM

I guess I'm just an old Rebel....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

And, of course....

Now, therefore, we, the elected Representatives of the ancient Irish People in National Parliament assembled, do, in the name of the Irish Nation, ratify the establishment of the Irish Republic and pledge ourselves and our people to make this declaration effective by every means at our command.

We ordain that the elected Representatives of the Irish People alone have power to make laws binding on the people of Ireland, and that the Irish Parliament is the only Parliament to which that people will give its allegiance.


As well as...

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty: six times during the past three hundred years they have asserted it in arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades-in-arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and its exaltation among the nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM

Bonnie - I have an RSI no. too!

A friend of mine in the same situation as me got a polling card too -there's something funny going on here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:31 AM

Dunno - ?? I've always been sent polling cards and voted. I'd appreciate it if we could please discuss this by PM and not on the public board any further. I had no idea about any of this -


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 03:46 AM

Sorry, Jim, just twigged that you're not PM-able (brain cells aren't too good this hour of Sunday mornings).

My email is my name, all squished together with no spaces or dots {a t} g m a i l {d o t} com


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 08:13 AM

The French Ambassador's residence is a beautiful house, but huge and impossible to run, and families would prefer to live in a smaller and more modern place, apparently.

Ireland's economy is in trouble deep at the moment - unemployment figures are rocketing, the multinationals are pulling out and moving to Latvia, the housing bubble has gone pop, and the Government are standing gazing at themselves in the mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Gulliver
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:16 PM

JTT, that's right. The government ministers and spokesmen for the government over the past six months have been working overtime to paper over the cracks. They realize now that they have squandered their chance during the boom period to fix the health and education systems, to put a proper public transport infrastructure in place, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 06:57 PM

it's readily apparent from both my accent and my English partner's that neither of us was born here. That doesn't follow. Accents at most indicate we've spent a fair bit of time living in some place or another. There are millions of Irish born people with the accents of other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 07:11 PM

We live in a small village where everybody knows everybody, and we are recognised here for the nationalities we are. I'm speaking of a situation specific to myself only, and I really don't feel like discussing it publicly any further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:00 AM

Thank you Ireland, from Texas. The Nazi Windsor-Saxe-Coburg-Gothas are trying to sell you out to the Commie U.N., and you said no. Hardee har har. Beautiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM

alternative.........the Lisbon ray gun??:

thread.cfm?threadid=92111#1757023


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:44 PM

Hmm, I think you all realise that a rejection of the Lisbon treaty just means that about half a dozen treaties (which make a much longer reading BTW) that were meant to be replaced by the Lisbon treaty stay valid instead.

That was not a vote against "Europe" though some seem to think it was. It was just a vote for the old (obviously not liked everywhere) bunch of treaties instead of the new one.

The new one had some interesting democratic opportunities like a referendum enforceable by (don't know how many) citizens of Europe.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Lisbon Treaty: Ireland votes NO
From: Rog Peek
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM

It seems to me, if your political leaders tell you something is good for you, what they really mean is that it's good for them. I'd say if you work on the assumption that it won't be good for you, then you'll not go far wrong. All the political leaders in Ireland seem to have told the people the Lisbon treaty will be good for the people, so the people have voted no. Good for them!

Rog


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