BS: McCain... Another lieing president???

Subject: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 05:49 PM

Well, well, well...

Okay, I can uderstand how John McCain could have these little "senior moments" and be confused about stuff like geography and actual events but he has usually, when corrected, makes a joke about it, the adoring press laughs and things are fine...

Hey, I can live with those...

But John McCain is now in the midst of a false ad campiagn about why Obama didn't visit the wounded troops while he was in Germany... The facts are not at all what McCain is saying yet McLiar thinks it's perfectly okay to continue telling the lie as if it was the truth... Haven't we had enough lies from the Bush/Cheney adminstration???

(Source: Washington Post, July 30, 2008, "McCain Charge Against Obama Lacks Evidence" by Michael D, Shear and Dan Balz)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: MarkS
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

No matter what we will get a new administration next year, and we can look forward to a new crop of lies.
They are all politicians, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:29 PM

Well, not really, Mark...

Yeah, it's easy to say that all politicans lie and to some extent many do... But most when caught in the lie say, "Ahhhhh, we must have gotten some bad intellegence" and quit telling the lie... BUsh and Cheney, of course, being the exception...

Now we have McCain, when told that he is wrong, has purdy much said, "I don't care if uit is a lie... I'm going to keep tellin' it..."

That, "my friend", is the kinda stuff that Bush and Cheney have done and these lies have gotten us into the largest foriegn policy blunder maybe in out history...

I think this a serious flaw in our system where when politicans are called on their lies they say "So?"...

That's part of the change that the country needs... More honesty!!!

I can't imagine Obama being caught in a bald faced lie and saying "So???"

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 06:33 PM

This is not really anything new. He's been lying for a very long time.

This video has some very interesting discussion about some of his previous lies...

http://fora.tv/2008/06/12/Robert_Scheer_in_Conversation_with_John_Dean

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 07:54 PM

Too long to load, CarolC...

Can you, in yer own words, ellaborate???

I must confess that I really haven't paid much attention to McCain over the years... Yeah, I think he got shafted by Bush in South Carolina in 2000 but that's about it...

Might of fact, I really wasn't payin' alot of attention to him this year until he started this string of attack ads on Obama over the last month... The one about Obama being responsible to the high gas prices, I think most folks see as purdy stupid...

But this latest one about Obama being some kinda elistist because he didn't see the troops while in Germany seem to be the most negative ad I've seen in years... Then the Post story came out and says it is an ad based on absolutely no truth got me thinkin' that here is this old angry man who wants to be president who is willing to lie as bad as Bush and Cheney to get there???

How sad a little man John McCain must be...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:06 PM

"Well, that certainly didnÕt take long. On July 3, news reports said Senator John McCain, worried that he might lose the election before it truly started, opened his doors to disciples of Karl Rove from the 2004 campaign and the Bush White House. Less than a month later, the results are on full display. The candidate who started out talking about high-minded, civil debate has wholeheartedly adopted Mr. RoveÕs low-minded and uncivil playbook.


In recent weeks, Mr. McCain has been waving the flag of fear (Senator Barack Obama wants to ÒloseÓ in Iraq), and issuing attacks that are sophomoric (suggesting that Mr. Obama is a socialist) and false (the presumptive Democratic nominee turned his back on wounded soldiers).

Mr. McCain used to pride himself on being above this ugly brand of politics, which killed his own 2000 presidential bid. But he clearly tossed his inhibitions aside earlier this month when he put day-to-day management of his campaign in the hands of one acolyte of Mr. Rove and gave top positions to two others. The rŽsumŽs of the new teamÕs members included stints in Mr. BushÕs White House and in his 2004 re-election campaign, one of the most negative and divisive in memory.

Almost immediately, the McCain campaign was using Mr. RoveÕs well-honed tactics, starting with an attempt to widen this nationÕs damaging ideological divide by painting Mr. Obama as a far-left kook. On July 18, Mr. McCain even suggested that Mr. Obama is a socialist to the left of the SenateÕs only avowed socialist: Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Mr. ObamaÕs politics are hardly far-left, and anyone who has spent time in a socialist country knows how ridiculous that label is for any member of Congress. It would be bad enough if Mr. McCain honestly believed what he said, but we find that hard to imagine."

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Fat Lorenzo
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:45 PM

You got that right, MarkS.

Put me down as just another nut voting for that other guy they won't let back into Congress--for fear of too much truth telling. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 08:51 PM

Huh???

Pee in the cup...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Morton Grove
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 09:39 PM

I am voting for McCain who just might win. I will not vote for an inexperienced Chicago political wannabe.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jul 08 - 10:27 PM

Obama has told his share of lies.
One is that he was poor in Hawaii.
His stepfather, Lolo Soetaro, a Shell Oil executive for Indonesia and later liason between the Indonesian government oil company and Shell, was extremely well-to-do, and was well able to pay a large settlement to his ex-wife when they divorced.
This paid Barack Obama's fees at Punahou in the 1970s, from age 10, when he left Indonesia for schooling, entering the fifth grade, to graduation at age 18 in 1979; Punahou is one of the most exclusive and expensive private schools (fees now $15725/year) anywhere.
Obama says he had a scholarship, which is a lie. Scholarships are available at Punahou only to descendants of the old missionary families and to those with Hawaiian blood.
Incidentally, the settlement also paid for his mother's expedition through central Asia, and her work on her doctoral dissertation on Indonesian workers.

Obama has frequently exaggerated his roll in legislation in the Senate; see a current thread, American Government Owners' Manual, and its link to "Barack's "Obama-isms," for reference to some of his questionable statements.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:22 AM

Basically they were saying that when McCain went after Boeing, he said it was because he was fighting pork barrel spending, but in reality, the co-chair of McCain's campaign was a lobbyist for Martin Marietta (Lockheed Martin), the company that stood to lose the most if Boeing got the contract for the refueling tankers.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 01:15 AM

Uh, Bobert: McCain ain't president yet. Not 'till November. Then you can call him president.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 02:29 AM

I'd like to see some documentation to support the claim about Obama's mother getting such a large settlement.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: pdq
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 03:41 AM

"Not 'till November. Then you can call him president."

Actually, after Nov.4th McCain will be called "president elect". You can't really call him "president" until later in January.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:10 AM

I think Millfield and Eton are considerably more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

Looks like the liars are the ones who are spreading the rumor that the only scholarships available for people to go to Punahou are for descendants of missionary families and those with "Hawaiian blood". Here's the financial aid page from the Punahou website. It doesn't say anything at all about there being any restrictions for who can and cannot receive financial aid (other than need), and it does not mention either descendants of missionary families nor people with Hawaiian blood...

http://www.punahou.edu/page.cfm?p=62

I think we can safely say that anything coming from that source on the subject of Obama is highly suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:55 AM

For a Republican smear to be effective though, it doesn't have to be true. Just plausible enough for gullible people who want to believe it, to rationalize and justify their prejudices and vote against the guy (in this election, Obama).

This is page 1 of the Republican play book. It doesn't do a damn thing to stand around wringing hands over it. Obama has to find a way to hit back, hit back hard, and hit back negatively.

Will that destroy his brand? No one, including the Obama camp, knows for sure. But what is known for sure, is if Obama isn't willing to go negative against McCain, hard and fast, he could easily lose in November.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

Possibly, but I don't know if one can use any of the metrics of the past to determine what will work this time around. For instance, the Obama people are working very hard to get out the votes of those who are not currently registered to vote. A lot of those people probably don't vote because they are turned off by the negativity in the campaigns. If Obama went negative, he might just end up shooting himself in the foot.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:05 PM

Indeed all Chicago politicians and civil servants need to go.
The same with the inexperienced.

We here at the McCain Institute are drafting a loyalty oath that will identify these "Chicagoans" and the "inexpereinced" and "alien immigrants" for what they are and deal with them appropriatly.

Next, every job appllicant and current job holder in this country will fill out a form developed by Monica Goodling. Thus preserving the great cultural heritage of our great nation.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:07 PM

McCain has been very Teflonesque, and the media seems as terrified of going after him with his war hero status, as they are enthralled by the novelty and celebrity of Obama.

I don't know that the general election voter will be bothered by negative campaigning at all this year. First, everyone knows that negative campaigning gets used because it is very effective. Second, enough political strategists know that while voters say they dislike negative campaigning, when they step into the booth, they vote based upon how effective it has been. Third, and this is one I hope I am right about, Obama playing hardball might be just the bullseye he needs to target voters who are unsure of his leadership and character.

In tough times, people want tough leaders, not celebrity arugula eaters.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:13 PM

The Obama people have conducted a very effective campaign so far. Far more effective than McCain's even despite the teflon coating the media has given him. While I am not an Obama supporter myself (although I may vote for him in November), I don't think I would try to second guess their strategy overall.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 12:41 PM

The job of any campaign is to afford and promote credible advertising.

All advertising lies. Sometimes in a big way and sometimes by ommission.

Effective Advertising must be informative and stir emotions to work on both hempispheres of the brain.

The advertising campaign by McCain faces an uphill battle since he must persuade the common people to vote against their best interest.
He must encourage people to buy what will harm them the most while helping a small but powerful ruling class. Still such ad campaigns have succeeded time and again.

We all expect the lie and when one is identified we quibble over it for a week or two and forget about it.

The best lie is one that sticks. If it survives public repetition for more than 2 months, it has a life of its own and gains true power over thoughts and action. When the lie draws defensive reaction it is sure to succeed.

So choose the lies that you fancy most but remember deep down they are all merely lies.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:03 PM

Punahou has long had a policy of admitting people of all races; Sun Yat-sen was a student at Iolani* (another expensive private Honolulu school) and Punahou, there have been many others of different races.

Punahou is extremely secretive about their scholarships, which had to be opened following non-discrimination decisions applying to all schools in the U.S. I have found a few outside scholarships at Punahou, but currently their top is only $2000 per year, a fraction of the total. There may be others that are unlisted. Punahou's endowment currently is over $100 million (1979 Reunion statement); an article by Austin Murphy, CNN, estimates that it exceeds $180 million. The Endowed Scholarship Fund (currently about $40 million) lists recipients from 1936, but Obama's name in not among them:
www.punahou.edu/page.cfm?p=589
Amounts given are not stated.

Military Service families stationed in Hawaii who wished to enrol their children in schools better than those near the bases have long complained about the exclusivity of Punahou, Iolani and similar schools there and their inability to afford the fees. Only those sporting the eagle or better could pay the fees.

Punahou does not disclose any data on income backgrounds of students, proportion of fees paid by scholarships, proportion of endowed or other data on instructors pay, etc.

Lolo Soetoro also paid the fees for his daughter Maya (Soetoro-Ng) at Punahou (she teaches at a private girls school in Oahu, and part-time at U Hawaii (Manoa) where she obtained her doctorate). Soetoro is remembered by former colleagues at Shell as a dedicated golfer and party man, with several club memberships.

His well-to-do Kenyan grandfather was able to send and support his son at U. Hawaii (Manoa). Obama's supporters push the goat-farmer story.
Obama's poor boy stance is a direct reflection of a number of politicians in history who pushed their supposed backwoods log cabin upbringing in order to appeal to non-affluent voters.
-------------------------

*Iolani, another exclusive Hawaiian School, a late-comer (1863) compared to Punahou, current tuition $14,900/year kindergarten-highschool, plus a supplement from their endowment, total about $21,000/year. Punahou and Iolani are just two of the expensive private schools in Hawaii.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 04:59 PM

Is there any documentation for the assertion that Lolo Soetoro paid all this money, or do we have to accept it on faith?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 05:20 PM

The one and only job of a campaign is to get the candidate elected.

Obama ran a great primary campaign, but he hasn't been doing that great in the general election so far, according to US polls--especially the newest ones that show Obama slipping and McCain gaining.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:06 PM

Divorce settlements may be part of a court proceeding, in which case some details become public, but many are uncontested private agreements that remain confidential. I admit that I have no firm data, only statements by friends who were in Hawaii at the time.

From what I know of remuneration at his level, Soetoro's income from Shell would have been high for services liasing with Pertamina, whose assets Shell once owned, in addition to his direct recompense from the state-owned Indonesian company, but it would have been considerable. Soetoro presented its face at international meetings.

There is a lot of garbage on the net concerning Obama's religious training. Soetoro was something of a free-thinker, and loved the animistic stories of his homeland, which he would tell to Barack and anyone who was interested in the old tales. As a pupil in Indonesia, Barack would be registered as Muslim, the religion of his (step)father, but at the private schools he attended, pupils of Christian parentage and others were also enrolled, and religion was not a dominant subject, as it might be at madrassa-type schools.
Assertions that Soetoro was a rabid Muslim and Obama was Muslim are gross distortions.

Looking back at the Punahou endowed scholarship fund, the list appears to be donors, not recipients- sorry for the error. I can find no accurate data on scholarship recipients.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:36 PM

So what we are being presented as fact is, in actuality, nothing more than unsubstantiated hearsay (gossip), and could quite possibly be (more than likely is) lies. So noted.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

>>I admit that I have no firm data, only statements by friends who were in Hawaii at the time.

Lets look for some credibility here. Your friends lived on Oahu, Hawaii at the same time that Obama went to school there and they somehow remember the circumstances under which this one young man went to school? Did they know he would run for president? Were they on the board of the school?

I'll leave it to you to examine the credibility of these friends of yours but allow me to note that I was recently introduced to a new term which was "Political buddy" a friend of ours told us that a "Political buddy" had told her that his "friends" in Kenya had written him a letter which avowed, among other things that Obama had conspired with his "tribe" to become President and take over America for Islam.

"Political buddies" can only be trusted to tell you politically self serving things.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Mark T.
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 06:56 PM

Yes Mark I quite agree. Pick your poison, but they're all pack of lying scoundrels.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:37 PM

So it seems that some people imply that Barack is a Manchurian Candidate of some kind.
What kind? is he an Iranian candidate of Saudi candidate?

Any long winded story that can include hot words like Muslim names and countries asks the reader to draw a conclusion of the Muslim connection.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

"negative campaigning" seems to be a term with a number of meanings.

It seems to be used to refer to telling truths that reflect badly on a candidate; on the other hand it also seems to be used to refer to telling lies and distortions of the truth that would reflect badly on a candidate if they were true, in the expectation that there will be people gullible enough to believe them.

There is a big difference between those two things.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 08:56 PM

If you freeze frame the latest McCain ad you will see Paris Hilton ON TOP of Barack Hussein Obama.


never mind the racist white women black man implication, or the current Paris Hilton oral sex videos on the web, the fact that she is on top is PROOF that Barack does not engage in missionary positions and is a sexual deviant.

Ben Stein says "I applaud this ad since it shows that McCain is a average common man",

(when compared to the hollywood muslim elitist Obama?)

As ads go it is one of the best ads for McCan't.

McCan't had another skin cancer biopsy this week. It was also mentioned that in reference to the Keating scandal, John still ssuffers from corruptile dysfunction.
Afterall it doesn't mention his name, policies or qualifications even once.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:07 PM

Actually, GUEST,DV, the Obama camp is doing a great job with the general cmapaign... Don't get bogged down with polls and ads and fluff... Campaigns are won at the grassroots level and you can take it to the bank that Obama is out organizing McCain in states where Repubs haven't had to work...

Might of fact, I have just gotten home from an Obama organizational meeting in Page County, Va. where the Dems generally just roll over... But Obama has a paid staffer assigned to this county... This ain't never happened and its happening in rural counties all accross the country...

So, believe it or not, Obama is doing just fine... Same stuff that won Iowa is being duplicated everywhere... McCain is hoping that he can beat down Obama with negative ads but he ain't spending the money in the rural precincts and this is gonna cost McCain big time... Yeah, Obama won't carry Page County but if we get 40% and other rural Virginia counties get 40% then Richmond and Northern Virginia will take Obama over the top...

Same with a lot of former red states...

And we also have Howard Dean to thank for the 50 state strategy that was so successfull in '06...

And all this from a Greenie for Obama...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:25 PM

take two old white men while you're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:32 PM

Stevie:

You are really, really, missing the picture, pal.


Oh, and here's another cirdular:

Last month, conservatives led by Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh sent over a million messages to Congress calling for offshore oil drilling. Then John McCain joined the push for drilling. Now he's running ads saying Obama's responsible for high gas prices, because Obama's energy plan focuses on alternative energyÑnot drilling.

It's a scam. Offshore drilling won't save any money at the pumps for years (although it will boost oil company profits). But some senior Democrats are showing signs of caving under all this pressureÑand polls show McCain's attacks may be hurting Obama.

Here's the truth: Right now, progressives are losing this argument. We all need to fight back. If we don't, we could end up losing the election AND the fight for clean energy.

We've got a simple, powerful new ad that tells the truth about the Republicans' drilling scam.

http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3996&id=13370-137503-JHVSMZx&t=4

McCain is so focused on drilling because he knows people are anxious enough about energy costs to make this the issue of the 2008 elections. When you're worried about how you're going to afford the drive to work, or how you're going to get your kids to school, and you have no other short-term optionsÑyou'll be open to anything that might help. McCain is preying on that anxiety by offering offshore drilling as a quick fix.

Offshore drilling won't fix gas prices or our dependence on foreign oil. There simply isn't enough oil offshore or in the Arctic, and it will take up to a decade to get what little is there. Even then, we would only save 3 or 4 cents a gallon!1

Offshore drilling is a gimmickÑbut it will be the gimmick that works for John McCain if we don't push back now...."

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 09:57 PM

You're right, Amos. It would be hard to fault Obama for gas shortages. I've never seen so much hot air generated from one source in my life.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:15 PM

Sorry Bobert, but I don't share your confidence. I am really concerned about Obama losing, and think it is very possible.

I'm hoping otherwise, obviously. But I'm really disappointed with the way he isn't responding effectively to this series of attack ads. He is looking like a punching bag a la 1988 or 2004. Two of the sleaziest, dirtiest campaigns of modern times.

I know a lot of people think taking the high road in the campaign is the way to go. But the reality is, it doesn't work when your opponent has no sense of decency and honor.

Heck, even Gandhi figured that out while fighting the Brits.

Kerry made this mistake too (not fighting back and hitting hard).

Like I said, could be deja vu all over again if Obama doesn't get scared straight here, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 10:29 PM

As a person of some experience in these areas, let me just say to DV that his concern is well placed. You have Rove's people doing the play by play and they are the best at dirty politics. I was very pleased with the first response ad that Obama ran, in which he dismissed the attack ad as dirty politics of the same old variety, and then moved on to his own message. He needs to stay the course on this type of thing to draw a clean break from the politics of the past. The one thing that DV needs to reassure himself about is that we are a very long way from November, there will be ups and downs, and the election is Obama's to lose, despite what the sleight of handers and the Swift Boaters would have you believe. What folks like me look at is the long term, perceptual campaign. It is clear that Obama is walking a very clear path designed to allay the concerns about his experience. He is not letting the frenzied rhetoric from either side sway his path.

Make no mistake about it. The Republicans, despite the spin, are completely freaked out by how well the European and Middle East trip went. McCain dared him, McCain chastised him, and Obama called the bet and raised. The Republicans then tried to play the "he's campaigning for German votes" card, and Obama came right back and went to work on domestic policy. The key to looking Presidential, and to building confidence, is for this young man to keep a steady hand on the helm, continue to refine and develope his message, take a thoughtful approach on his policies without letting the Republican spinmeisters goad him into thrashing, and use very good timing and very good judgement in selecting his running mate and potential cabinet members. This is just a hunch I have, but there is a very good possibility he picks a former Hilary supporter (maybe a Debbie Stabenow) to pick up the Clinton support.

Speaking of the Clintons. That is the one area that I am concerned with. He must settle this out, and get them involved in a real way.


All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Jul 08 - 11:06 PM

I agree with Amos that offshore drilling in the Arctic, or off the East and Gulf coasts, won't fix the problem- estimates are pie in the sky figures, and even if there is a fair amount, it will be ten years before its effect becomes a factor. This has been gone over in several threads. McCain is misinformed, and needs to study up on resource industries as a whole.
I hold no brief for either candidate, both grasp at whatever will give the public hope.
------------------------------

Hawaiians know a great deal about their private schools, and the fight to get into the best- contacts- their ohana- are invaluable in their future lives. In National assessments, many students in public schools are below national averages. Overall, only 21% of 8th graders are considered proficient in math and 20% in reading. National Assessment of Education Progress.

When a claim looks wrong- and Obama's does- questions arise and the gossip flows, the claims are examined and resentment that their kids didn't get a 'scholarship' to Punahou or Iolani re-surfaces. And in Oahu, everyone knows about everyone else. A recent item in the Advertiser aired a complaint by the man who was captain of the Punahou basketball team of which Obama was a second-stringer, upset that Obama was talking about facing discrimination at the school. He said that of the starting five, 3 were part Hawaiian or Hawaiian-Chinese, and one was a Filipino, he was the only white on the squad.
Although Blacks are only 2% of the population, only 30% claim that they are white, most being Chinese, Japanese, Hawaiian or Rainbow as they call themselves.

The best most parents there can do is pay the much smaller fees at the Kamehameha schools, which afford advantages because they are the largest landholder in Hawaii, have an endowment in the neighborhood of $8-10 Billion, and state of the art campuses- but enrollment is limited and places are fought for (3500 places, kindergarten-grade 12 at their 160 acre campus in Honolulu, but there are other schools in their system, on Hawai'i and Maui, and they have arrangements that provide off-campus resources to some 20,000 students).

For current information on public schools in Hawaii,
see www.honolulumagazine.com/Honolulu-Magazine/May-2008/Grading-the-Public-Schools508/

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM

Well, yeah, the Rovish tactics of McCain will have their effect for awhile but timing is everything and McCain is going to puncg himself out long before the election... He is wasting money and punches right now..

McCain mistakenly thinks that negative attack ads will trump good organizing... Doesn't work that way... McCain had better get to work at the basics...

(But, Bobz, McCain doesn't have the money or structure to mount a grassroots campaign...)

Well, I guess that's why we are seein' "Plan B"...

Look, folks, I'm not guarenteein' an Obama win because there are a certain number of folks who won't vote for him because he is a Democrat, or because he is black, or, or... But I will say that Obama is running a model campaign at all levels... Very disciplined... Very focused... And very organized... And he has an army of very smart people assigned to go into areas and do some serious community organizing...

The guy who is heading up the Virginia, Mitch Stewart, is the same guy who headed up the Iowa campaign and we know what happened there...

Now, here's my pitch... If you are concerned that Obama might loose then give up 3 measly hours a week to do voter registartion, canvassing, letter writing between now and NOvemeber and get one other person to step up to do it and guess what??? You'll increase Obama's chances come November... I guarentee it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:07 PM

I am very familiar with the way gossip works in isolated communities... and of the horrendous damage it can and does to, often to people who don't deserve it. And the thing about gossip is that, as often as not, there is no truth to it whatever. One can say about Obama, "the gossip in Hawaii is that his schooling was paid for by his step father". One cannot say "Obama's schooling was paid for by his step father". At least one can't say that and know that it is the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM

Okay, I've gone up through the thread and I'm obviously missing something. Why in the world would anybody care if Obama's stepfather paid for his schooling?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:22 PM

Bobert, I don't care enough to work for Obama or the party.

Sorry, but I don't find anything either of them are up to as being worthy of sacrificing my time for, especially when I'm already committed to volunteering elsewhere.

Besides, my volunteer gigs actually make a difference, unlike working for the political hacks & parties, where it is SOS.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: pdq
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

Rigs,

It probably goes to the point about truthfulness if he has been claiming that he won a full scholarship to this very expensive school, when, in reality, his step-father paid for it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

(A.) "I am very concerned about Obama losing"

(B.) "I don't care enough for Obama..."

Come on, DV... You can't have it both ways... My gut feeling is that "A" is how you feel but when called to task to pledge 3 hours a week you aren't ready to do that... Okay, I can accept that... Not worth the sacrifice (time), I don't buy...

I have a 17 acre farm to keep maitained, plus a 200 year old hotel I'm am project manager of a complete renovation... Plus, I also have a band and gigs and all so, geeze... "Not ready", "Ain't into that stuff", "Too lazy" I can accept... "Not worth the sacrifice" I don't buy...

And for the record, this is the 1st Dem I have actively worked for since Bobby Kennedy and I have also voted for Nader every time he has run... Hopefully you'll come along but if you don't, hey, that's okay, too... Just be sure to vote.. Okay???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Aboslutely.


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:16 PM

Yes of course Q there are what? A half a million people in Oahu, Of course every one knows everybody's business. Especially who went to what high school and how. That would be an easy thing to track.

Are there no academic scholarships at these schools? You know, scholarships for very very very smart kids who get near perfect grades. Most exclusive schools do have them. Is it not possible that Obama got the scholarship because he was smart?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:25 PM

It's a little hard to believe, because if he was smart then, what happened to him in the interim?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

Speaking from my own experience, you can get a "full" scholarswhip and attend a school you and your family could never otherwise afford, and still need additional money.

If Obama's stepdad was indeed a highly-compensated employee of an oil company ~ and I have no reason to doubt that, even though I never heard about it elsewhere ~ an academic scholarship would probably have been partial, due to the lack of documented financial "need." In such circumstances, the academic scholarship is (a) an honor and (b) a proportionally-appropriate financial break for the family, lessening but not eliminating expenses.

If young Barack was awarded such a need-based academic scholarship, but nowadays implies that is was "full," in turn implying a less-than-affluent background, I suppose that might justifiably be characteried as an untruth-by-omission.

Pretty small stuff compared to the multiple outright lies being promulgated on a daily basis by his opponents.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

Hasn't been all that long that Obama was paying off student loans unless, of course, he made that up and in that case I'm sure John McNasty's folks would have allready founf it out and made a big deal about it so we can assume that if he had student loans then he wasn't no silver spooner...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:32 PM

OK--so take the "very" away from the concerned.

I'm not into working on the politics front. Like at all.

But I don't consider holding political opinions and voting to be doing nothing or "having it both ways". By paying attention at election time and showing up to vote, I already do more than many, many of my fellow citizens.

So, maybe you could lay of the guilt trip, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:35 PM

Come on Rig. You can do better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

McCain as president? Please bite your tongue.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 05:06 PM

"Hasn't been all that long that Obama was paying off student loans unless,..."



                  Maybe Tony Rezko took care of them!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 06:59 PM

DV,

Wsan't 'sposed to be no guilt trip... Lotta folks saying stuff just like you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM

Well if that's the case....I guess Obama is just changing his mind.


Take a look at this!


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:55 PM

""If, in order to get that passed, we have to compromise in terms of a careful, well thought-out drilling strategy that was carefully circumscribed to avoid significant environmental damage - I don't want to be so rigid that we can't get something done.""

Well, you can think what you like, but htios strikes me as a man who understands statesmanship. He could go to the wall making the other side look stupid (because the push for drilling is illogical) but he's not doing that. He's giving a little in order to get somewhere free of oil dependence. And from what he has said, not much being given away.

But it was a mature and thoughtful step.

And no, he hasn't changed his mind; he has taken a positive step to reach a point of progress. What kind of ideal would it be to have someone figure a situation out from one point of view only and then stick hard over on it until the cows come home?


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

Look at what?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:41 PM

Look at what Obama's selling out now!

God, even Nancy Pelosi hasn't stooped this low.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

Following the story on Obama's comments posted by Conservative are some google adds for oil investment-
Please, don't get sucked in. Maybe not legally scams, but your money will disappear almost as quickly.

Obama shows he is not gungho on the drilling, and he is right- McCain thinks the issue will be popular, and is pushing, wrongly.

I wonder what oil companies are "beating the drums on drilling" ?
I am afraid they might be of the speculative ilk, who suck in investors, drill, and walk away with the money even if the hole is dry.
On the other hand, some company with a good technical staff may have outlined a prospect, and has a legitimate proposal. Great care should be exercized in awarding drilling rights, sometimes awarding to the highest bidder is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:12 PM

Obama didn't have to stoop this low. Pelosi & the Congressional Dems held firm on one damn thing the entire year, and Obama caves the day they win it and go home?

WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:23 PM

Jesus, DV, take a cold shower. You're watching the guy look for common ground, refusing to be hard over in the beginning.

At this stage of things, it's the right move.


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Aug 08 - 11:39 PM

Amos, these guys forget that he has to get elected in order to begin the work that must be done. He is doing a good job of accomplishing that. It is no walk in the park, but he is doing fine.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:06 AM

Maybe I'm dense, but I couldn't figure out what he was selling out. As Amos says, 'common ground' is important, and he is beginning to look like he is willing to work toward compromise solutions.
Although I have looked on McCain as the best choice, now I am beginning to wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:10 AM

Obama is a middle of the road, pragmatic politician. He is in favor of what works. Anyone who thought he was a liberal was listening to people talking about him and not to what he has been saying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:17 AM

No! He was only liberal during the primary. Now he's adrift.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:19 AM

See you in November, Riggy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:25 AM

No he wasn't a liberal in the primaries.

You shit on him every day but you don't have clue one who he is. Try paying attention to what he has been saying and go back far enough to get some perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:08 AM

I don't think McCain will last until voting day. If he does, you Republicans oughta consider who his running mate is because whoever that is will end up becoming president.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

I tell you what. He is so busy moving to the right, and making me angry about his pandering to the right, that he may well suppress my vote and make me stay home.

That is how angry I am at this 180.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

What Mick said... The guy has to get elected, doesn't he and what he is showing in this campaign is that when he says he can work accross party lines is more than rhetoric as we are seeing it in this campaign...

What??? Do folks want another stubborn president who chizzeles every policy in stone and refuses to budge... We've had that and it doesn't work in solving problems... Just creates problems...

But apparently there are folks here who fault Obama for being what he says he is???

Hmmmmmmmm???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM

And the hypocrisy here is among those who say it is fine for Obama to lie to get elected, but not for McCain to lie to get elected.

That's just a heap of steaming bull dung.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

"Try paying attention to what he has been saying and go back far enough to get some perspective..."


                      You don't have to go back very far to find where Obama was jumping on McCain about off-shore oil drilling. Now he's for it...

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM

". . . heap of steaming bull dung."

I don't believe that phrase has ever before appeared on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:13 AM

That aside, a guy'd have to be pretty naive to think anyone could get elected in North America by telling the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

So what is happening is this. As Obama becomes more "electable" he also becomes more corrupted by the process itself.

Following this logic, that means that by the time Obama is actually elected in November, he and his political positions will become unrecognizable to those who leapt on his bandwagon in the last year, and certainly who voted for him in the primaries.

Because only a candidate who can be corrupted can be elected, Obama will be yet another opportunist politician who sold himself out in order to become the corrupt president-elect.

And this scenario is an improvement over Bush/Cheney how, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:35 AM

And please, don't bother referring me to Obama's website for his "positions" on policies.

He has one set of positions for his web page, another set of positions on the stump, yet another set of positions for being interviewed by the media, and then there is what he will actually do as president.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:42 AM

OK Peace, I'll take you at your word. So why should we be appalled at McCain lying, but not at Obama doing the same damn thing?

Why the righteous indignation when McCain lies and "shifts positions" (nice sanitized euphemism I got from the NYT story), but when Obama does it, it's perfectly fine because it is what he has to do to get elected?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM

I'm of the opinion that it's just a little political expediency at work here.

Being as opposed to offshore drilling as he was, you would have thought that he prayed to a bottle of seawater everynight. I'm convinced that Pelosi and Harry Reid actually burn incense and candles over their saltwter fish tanks every night before they lay down.

But when the overwhelming majority of the American public says let's go and drill in these areas and that their pocketbooks are actually more important than a few caribou and a couple of bottlenose dolphins, Obama's speech turns faster than the face of a pimply faced teenager at a swimsuit contest.

Now he's ready to "compromise"?

It's just stinks of political expediency and shows that he's not a man held by the belief of his convictions. He's just there to be given over to the highest bidder.

I'm like Amos and Big Mick, DV. Don't let this lastest example get you down. It's all in the way you look at it. If you can justify it in your mind, then it must be ok.

But unlike Amos and Big Mick, DV, I do admire you for at least sticking to your convictions. You're probably one of the few posters here that are brave enough to do so.

I've told Amos before that I'd rather tell you the truth and hurt your feelings than to lie to you and make you feel better.

I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM

The majority of Americans are wrong, Obama and McCain both know it, and they are both pandering for votes, and selling out the future of the planet to do it.

I don't know if I can justify this one in the long run. We'll see. I'm furious about this capitulation by Obama.

I can condone all matter of trivial position flip flops in the name of electability and post-partisanship.

But some things aren't trivial--like war and the state of the environment. And both those things are inextricably linked in both our foreign policy militarism, and our domestic over-consumption of fossil fuels to provide energy for wasteful, extravagant lifestyles that aren't ecologically or financially sustainable.

You have to draw the line somewhere, and I tend to draw the line over the big issues that matter, like war and the environment.

Obama has backpedalled on the war considerably since announcing his candidacy, and even more since the primaries ended.

But this?

God, this is just appalling. Clinton was rightly demonized for pandering to voters over the gas issue during the primary.

This is a far more important matter than not taxing gas for a couple of months.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM

"So why should we be appalled at McCain lying, but not at Obama doing the same damn thing?"

I can't speak for 'we', but I can for myself. You shouldn't. Think back to the last administration that wasn't tainted by scandal, jail terms, etc. I am not in the mood to get into a scrap. So there's my answer. Have a great day.

My remark about the 'heap of steaming bull dung' was meant to be a compliment. Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM

"You shit on him every day but you don't have clue one who he is. Try paying attention to what he has been saying and go back far enough to get some perspective."


JTS,

Fortunately, in this case, you don't have to go very far.


"The reason [our energy policy] doesn't change--you can take a look at how Dick Cheney did his energy policy. He met with environmental groups once. He met with renewable energy folks once. And then he met with oil and gas companies 40 times. And that's how they put together our energy policy. We've got to put the national interests ahead of special interests, and that's what I'll do as president of the United States."
Source: 2007 YouTube Democratic Primary debate, Charleston SC Jul 23, 2007


"Part of what the next president has to do is not just tell the American people what they want to hear, but what they need to hear"
Source: 2007 Des Moines Register Democratic Debate Dec 13, 2007


Those are just a couple among many.

I think the second one really says it all.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM

Obama flip flops list that puts him on this same page as McCain/Bush:

FISA

Offshore drilling

Iraq/Afghanistan/war on terror

NAFTA

Gun control

Capital punishment

Gay rights

As Amy Goodman said recently when asked by a Newsweek journo if Obama was a sell out:

"It may be the strategy of the Obama campaign to run to the middle, to attract the independents, the undecided. But he should look carefully at the lessons of the 2004 Kerry campaign. John Kerry made similar calculations, not wanting to appear weak on the war in Iraq. Uninspired, people stayed home. There are millions who care about the issues from which Obama is distancing himself"

Indeed. I was one of those who sat out the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 10:59 AM

And BTW, the last administration that wasn't hopelessly corrupt was the Clinton administration. Not all that long ago, huh?

The Lewinsky scandal was muckracking scandal.

The far greater scandal is the scandal of the Democrats failing to being the leaders our republic needs.

These issues that Obama is using to politically pander to the right, are issues that speak volumes regarding his leadership capabilities.

Leaders don't follow the herd and act like the rest of the sheep. They take calculated, well thought out risks based upon what is right, not what will get them elected, or is politically expedient in the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM

The fact that this happened on a friday afternoon was no coincidence.

Anybody with any sense knows that if you have info that may be politically sensitive or info that may be damaging that must be let known to the general public....do it on Friday afternoon. The GP is heading into the weekend and will generally not remember it come Monday. So it makes sense that the following happened on Friday afternoon....

What Arrogance!

Then shortly after...Obama makes his political expedient decision.

You'd think they'd be on the same page at least.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:19 AM

Well, O will be your next president, so I think y'all better get used to it. News at 11:00.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:20 AM

No more arrogant than what Tom DeLay and Denny Hastert did when they were in power.

Sorry, that boat don't float, and most voters will see that they did protest too much. Grandstanding is still grandstanding, even with Pelosi at the helm.

The fact that the Democrats stalled the vote on offshore drilling until after the August recess doesn't reassure me.

They did the same thing with FISA before the Christmas recess, then came back and handed their heads to Bush/Cheney/McCain on a silver platter with the vote to give them every thing they wanted in the FISA bill.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM

I am so angry right now. I think you are probably right about Obama being the next president, but the difference is now (after this flip flop), I won't help him get elected with my vote, I don't want him to be president any more than I want McCain to be president.

And he won't be MY president either, just like Bush isn't my president.

Bush is the president of those who voted for him and Kerry, as far as I'm concerned.

Obama looks far too much like Kerry '04.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM

You are right. Now what next?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM

Well I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of McCain becoming the next CIC.

But I'm not quite as optimistic as you guys about the possibility of Obama becoming it either. In fact, the wheels of the Obama train are getting really loose and nobody seems to have the correct wrench to fix the problem.

It's gonna be a terrible crash.


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:41 AM

What next?

I can only speak for myself, and my vote only counts as one vote.

But this decision by Obama has completely destroyed MY hopes and frustrated MY desire for authentic change with an Obama presidency.

So for me, unless Obama starts taking positions on the issues I care most about, the "what next" answer for me is: remove any and all expectations that Obama is authentic, or that he has the capability to truly lead the nation through this tremendously dark and frightening era, and to not bother wasting my time and energy and actually show up to vote for him.

I was already very suspicious of him because of his moving to the right before the offshore drilling decision.

It is pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. Now I have to try and imagine a scenario where I'd actually show to vote for him. Up until this weekend, I was able to do that. Now, I can't. I'll give it a couple of days. But I can't see changing my mind now.

This is one of the issues (along with the post-9/11 imperial war mongering and FISA) that is a non-negotiable one for me. I already don't trust Obama on nukes. This tells me my gut instincts about him regarding the energy crisis is right on. He is a Republican in Democrats clothes.

On the three issues I find most important, which I originally signed up to support Obama on, he has now capitulated, and taken the same position as Bush/Cheney/McCain.

So there is absolutely no reason for me to vote for him.

Period.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

Sounds more than reasonable to me, DV.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

"He is a Republican in Democrats clothes."

Goodness, I wouldn't go quite that far.

He still needs to change his position on tax cuts and entitlement programs for that to be even close to true.



YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM

There is still plenty of time for that before November.

Don't forget, Conservative...YES!!, it was Clinton who pushed through welfare reform and signed off on the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:11 PM

DV, I understand your concern and feeling of betrayal. Yet I would hope that for all this man has to face to get elected (race, name) he is facing a spin machine being run by Rove's minions. Ultimately he changes nothing unless he can get elected and it is obvious to me he is doing what he must to do that, while simultaneously trying to change the game (ex: his response to the oil shortage ad and the Spears/Hilton ad). It is a tricky road this young man is walking and he is doing a pretty good job. Don't forget that campaigns and administrations are two different things.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

Nope, sorry that tack won't work for me. Obama isn't doing a damn thing to change the game. Let me give you one glaring example of that: his flip flop decision not to take public financing.

Nothing changes when the system, the process AND the candidates are corrupt.

Nothing.

In a matter of months, Rove/Bush/Cheney will be completely out of the picture, regardless of whether we have a President Obama or a President McCain.

I don't have to enable the corruption to do my duty as a citizen. In fact, under these circumstances, I'm beginning to think the most patriotic thing to do is not vote, to protest the complete, utter corruption of it all.

It is a tricky road ANY presidential candidate walks, and you are simply playing the apologist game here in an effort to do damage control.

Obama is his own worst enemy, not Rove/Bush/Cheney/McCain.

He has gone beyond even what Kerry did to pander and sell out in 2004. At least Kerry didn't sell out on public financing.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:20 PM

And please don't read what I just said as an inflammatory accusation that you personally are an apologist for Obama.

I don't mean it in an inflammatory way, but I do mean that apologizing for Obama as a means of damage control is going on all over the web in the Democatic party and Democratic party leaning liberal blogs and media right now.

At some point, MY integrity as a citizen matters more than electing any sell out Democrat with a pulse does.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:24 PM

And to say that he should NOT be following the Kerry strategy of '04 is quite to the point. Kerry lost because he moved so far to the right and did so much pandering to the militarists (remember the convention salute and "John Kerry, reporting for duty" moment?) that he lost his base and the election.

So, what genius strategists are driving this donkey in the ditch for the Obama campaign?

Answer: the same pol hacks that polluted the Gore and Kerry campaigns.

Surprised? No.

Going to give them the benefit of the doubt again?

No.

Fool me once, and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

And I'm taking a self-imposed time out from all this now, and going to enjoy my Saturday.

Thanks for the debate, folks!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

What he said was:
"``What I don't want to do is for the best to be the enemy of the good,'' Obama, a senator from Illinois, said at a news conference today in Cape Canaveral, Florida. ``If we can come up with a general bipartisan compromise in which I have to accept some things I don't like, then that's something I'm open to.''

Politics, as someone said, is the art of the possible.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

And it is entirely possible to give away too much of your principles while trying to get elected, just to say what you needed to say to get elected.

Selling out one's principles (if they actually have them, that is--it appears Obama doesn't have any principles upon which he is willing to take a principled stand) in order to "compromise" isn't a sign of leadership.

It is a sign of demagoguery.

So, how much demgoguing is too much demagoguing?

Leaders take principled stands on their positions because that is the right thing to do, and they do it knowing it will cost them some votes.

How many votes, no one ever knows. But certainly not enough votes to rationalize and justify not having ANY principles whatsoever, to make yourself enough of a chameleon to beat the other guy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

OK, so now I lied about taking a time out! ;-)

I'm outta here!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

In the case of Obama's position on allowing increased offshore drilling, it's not that there is a difference between what he says as a candidate and what he'll do as president if he gets elected. It's a difference between what he says he'll do as president and what he thinks is required of him as a senator.

His position as a candidate for president is that he will work to reduce our dependence on oil and to increase our ability to get our energy needs met in other ways. This is a far better position that McCain's on this subject. His role in helping to bring this about will be very different as president than it is as a senator.

As a senator, he has the same goal, but the way he can help make this happen is very different. As a senator, he can craft legislation or he can support legislation crafted by others. The position he is articulating now is in reference to a piece of legislation that he will have to either vote for or vote against (or not vote at all). This legislation would not interfere with Obama's overall goal of making the oil companies irrelevant. This is because, although the oil companies would have access to oil that they currently do not have, if the oil companies are made irrelevant by green technologies, whether or not they are allowed to drill in those places will become a moot point. There won't be any reason to drill there because there won't be any demand for the oil.

One thing that I particularly like about the legislation is that it repeals tax breaks that the oil companies are currently enjoying.

I think some people aren't looking at this issue very carefully or deeply, and this is causing them to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:09 PM

Ir ia NOT a far better position than McCain's, it is THE SAME position as McCain's.

He just co-opted McCain's position on energy, the same way Bush/McCain co-opted his on Iraq after Malaki agree with his timetable while he was in Iraq.

This "shift" in Obama's position is dramatic, and obviously pandering and demagoguing, to align himself with the majority of voters on this issue.

NEITHER candidate has a good, or even fairly passible position on the energy crisis.

At least, not now they don't.

Obama had a shot at it by standing with the OTHER SENATORS against offshore drilling.

So don't give me that "difference between being a senator and a presidential candidate" business. His senate colleagues were able to toe the line and go home for the break.

Why can't Obama stand with his colleagues, which include both Republicans and Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

If one actually reads what Obama has said and what is at stake, one can see that their positions are entirely different.

McCain is helping the oil companies to use high oil prices to blackmail the voters into allowing them to have whatever they want. McCain is saying that allowing the oil companies to have whatever they want will decrease the price of oil. This is a lie, and it is not at all what Obama is saying or trying to do.

Obama is not saying that increasing offshore oil drilling will reduce the price of gas. He is not saying that he is in favor of increasing offshore oil drilling. He is not advocating that we give the oil companies whatever they want.

He is saying that there is a bill before the Senate that he thinks has a pretty good chance of getting passed that would help to make the oil companies irrelevant. He is saying that the reason it has a good chance to get passed is because, although it contains elements that will ultimately make oil companies irrelevant, it also contains some short term incentives for senate members who are beholden to oil interests to vote for it anyway.

These are two entirely different things.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:57 PM

``What I don't want to do is for the best to be the enemy of the good,'' Obama, a senator from Illinois, said at a news conference today in Cape Canaveral, Florida. ``If we can come up with a general bipartisan compromise in which I have to accept some things I don't like, then that's something I'm open to.''

Clearly, it's better to read the headlines than to consider the content.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

I did read what Obama said, and what his stated position on the issue of offshore drilling was on his website, before yesterday.

Here are the facts:

Obama chastised Clinton (and rightfully so) for demagoguery when she joined with McCain on the gas tax during the primaries.

He stated then, clearly and eleoquently, the gas tax gimmick was just that, and it would do nothing to resolve the problems we face regarding energy use, or the long term price of gas.

Since discovering in June that the voters have changed THEIR minds based upon the skyrocketing cost of gas, and no longer oppose offshore drilling "as a means of addressing the cost of gas", but in fact now favor it, like the idiots John and Jill Q. Ill-Informed Voters that they are, McCain flip flopped HIS position on offshore drilling, and miraculously became FOR it, because that is what the pollsters and his advisors told him was "a winning position".

The pollsters and advisors are right. Since McCain flip flopped, and started supporting offshore drilling, his poll numbers have gone up so dramatically, he threatens to pull out in front of Obama in the swing states.

So, yesterday, AFTER the Congress adjourned without allowing a vote on offshore drilling (which allowed Obama to stand with his Congressional colleagues on this issue), this is what Obama also said (that I note no one here has bothered to quote):

From AP:

"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices," Obama said in an interview with The Palm Beach Post."

What happened to the gimmickry?

What happened to the being good at governing?

The American voters need to be educated on this issue, just like they did (and do) on the reasons why Bush/Cheney lied about Iraq--that it wasn't Saddam Hussein who attacked us on 9/11, and that there was no evidence of him possessing weapons of mass destruction.

Our political leaders (sic) have a responsibility to do that educating on the issues, instead of just pandering for votes and switching your position on an issue of paramount importance to the nation in the cause of political expediency.

During the primaries, Obama stood up to Clinton and went against the polls. It was one of the only things he did during the primary--aside from his speech on race--that drew me to his side (I was a Richardson supporter).

He called out both Clinton and McCain for pandering and acting against the best interests of the nation.

This, my friends, is a deep, deep betrayal.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

Of course, since the oil companies aren't drilling at capacity in the areas where they are currently allowed to drill, it's pretty obvious that they are holding the high oil prices over our heads artificially as a way of coercing us into agreeing to let them have whatever they want. All the more reason to make them irrelevant as soon as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

dick greehaus, that quote you have now given us twice, doesn't even make sense grammatically, much less as a coherent rationale for changing one of the major policies of one's candidacy.

This is HUGE.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

So you think having the future president cave on his principaled stand on offshore drilling, when the Congress is also making a strong stand against it that gives him tremendous political cover for the fall campaign, is the way to go about it?

That is just crazy.

Everyone knows the price of gas is gouging, before Bush/Cheney leave office.

The price of gas is dropping. Obama had the political cover, leverage, and a principalled enough stand on the issue to weather the charges by McCain and the oil oligarchy, and still win in November.

Which truly does beg the question: who got to him and bought him off?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices


Comprehensive is the key word here. McCain is saying that allowing the oil companies to increase the area where they are allowed to drill will bring down oil prices.

Obama is saying that the proposed legislation that he is talking about "would repeal tax breaks for oil companies so that we can invest billions in fuel-efficient cars, help our automakers re-tool, and make a genuine commitment to renewable sources of energy like wind power, solar power, and the next generation of clean, affordable biofuels...

...Like all compromises, it also includes steps that I haven't always supported...I remain skeptical that new offshore drilling will bring down gas prices in the short-term or significantly reduce our oil dependence in the long-term".

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:13 PM

So tell me CarolC, just how does flip flopping on offshore oil drilling bring down the cost of gas again?

Comprehensive is NOT a key word. The entire statement is subterfuge, intended to mask his flip.

Like I said, who got to him, and bought him off on this major issue of his candidacy?

The environment is one of the crown jewel causes of Obama the presidential candidate.

How does him flip flopping on something so basic, make him any different than McCain?

Answer: it doesn't.

Result: so what difference does make who I vote for?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

Obama called both Clinton and McCain liars over the gas tax gimmick. He told the truth about that.

So why is Obama lying about it now?

Flipping his position on offshore drilling WILL NOT do ANYTHING now or in the future to bring down the cost of gas OR move forward legislation that insures a substantial investment in sustainable energy use and fuels.

You know it, I know it, the Obama and McCain camps both certainly know it.

So why are you trying to defend this?

It is a profound betrayal not just of Obama's base, but of the need to do what is right for country and for the environment. Just like Big Mick said.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:21 PM

I thought that Obama was talking about the proposals of "the group of ten" as described here   in this link.

The compromise includes somethings that the Republicans would never support otherwise. Obama has always told the American people that he would compromise to get things done. I don't see a flip flop. I don't see a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM

>>>So why is Obama lying about it now?

Flipping his position on offshore drilling WILL NOT do ANYTHING now or in the future to bring down the cost of gas OR move forward legislation that insures a substantial investment in sustainable energy use and fuels.<<<

Is Obama saying that it will bring down the short term price of gas? I have not heard that. The funding for sustainable alternatives is part of the compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

Obama very craftily linked the issue of offshore drilling to the cost of gas with this statement, to pander to the voters who already believe the two things are linked. Here is the quote where he does it:

"My interest is in making sure we've got the kind of comprehensive energy policy that can bring down gas prices."

Obama's words, I copied the quote from the AP article.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:32 PM

And BTW, Jack the Sailor, this betrayal by Obama isn't targeted to people like you who will support Obama no matter what.

This flip is pandering demagoguery aimed squarely at right wing voters and centrist voters, who believe that offshore drilling and gas prices are linked.

Those are the gullible "buy anything from the guy I'd like to have a beer with and makes me feel safe" voters who, incidentally, elected Bush in 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

A comprehensive energy policy will gradually bring down gas prices over time. Offshore drilling is the LEAST efficient of the things that would make up such a policy, because of the long lead time in coming to market.

It is clear to me that he is simply playing table tennis with those who are insisting that offshore drilling is an answer when it is not, in order to get back some support somewhere else such as alternative energy credits or advanced tech research.

A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

Offshore drilling will do NOTHING to bring down gas prices now or any time in the future.

ALL energy experts agree on this.

Until yesterday, when Obama shot his Democratic Congressional colleagues in the back on their way out of town to the August recess, Obama agreed with it too.

Sorry, but that is just the way it is.

It is pretty tough to sugar coat betrayal.

This isn't table tennis. This is the most serious issue we face in our lifetimes.

We aren't talking the capital gains tax, or emergency funding for the economy here.

We are talking about the viability of our country, our national security interests, but more importantly even than those two things, the future viability of our children's and grandchildren's survivability.

A bit more significant than "table tennis" I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

If what we are told is true about supply and demand (an increase in demand creates an increase in prices), then what Obama is advocating would bring down prices. But it would do it far differently than what McCain is proposing. McCain wants to increase supply in order to bring down prices. Obama wants to decrease demand in order to bring down prices.

Different proposition entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

And again, there was no reason for him to "play table tennis" to get what he wanted in some vague "proposed legislation" in some far distant future theoretical debate about the energy crisis.

This is playing table tennis with our future, and a cynical, reprehensible act of betrayal, political pandering to stupid voters, and demagoguing while doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:55 PM

He's just stating his position on a piece of legislation that is being discussed in the Senate. That's his job as a senator.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM

And if you really believe what you just said to be the honest truth CarolC, why weren't you screaming from the rafters that Obama was wrong about this BEFORE he flipped his position yesterday, hmmm?

Answer: you are desperately trying to sugar coat and cover for his betrayal.

Very disingenuous, but what I expect from the crowd of Obama supporters who will support him no matter how much he changes his positions in order to get elected.

I guess that makes you guys pretty corruptable too.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

This is the same tactic Obama used when he flipped on FISA. He had been against the corps being given immunity, flipped on a Friday before a break, so that when it came time to vote on it again, the ruckus flap his flip flop caused wouldn't make headlines when the vote came up.

Thing is, Pelosi isn't going to back down on this one.

So where does that leave the distinguished junior senator from Illinois when the vote comes up after the recess, hmmm?

It isn't such a good idea to stab your allies in the back like this, especially in an election year, when you are losing your lead in the polls BEFORE the conventions.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:06 PM

I'm not screaming from the rafters because I'm not all that invested in Obama as a candidate for the presidency. I may vote for him, but I'm actually still a Kucinich supporter.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:09 PM

>>Offshore drilling will do NOTHING to bring down gas prices now or any time in the future.

ALL energy experts agree on this.<<

That is not true. No energy experts are saying that. Do energy experts even have a clue?
Supply and demand and pricing is a job for economists.

What the experts in the government say the effect will be negligible ("a few cents a gallon"). and that production would not be seen for ten to fifteen words.

I hope that you will concede that there is a difference between their words and yours.

Another word you seem to be missing is "comprehensive". The problem Obama had with the McCain/Bush plan. The problem I had as well was that it was not comprehensive.   

Nuclear electricity generation, without great advances in electric cars has nearly nothing to do with the price of gas. Offshore drilling alone will have a negligible effect. But combine, those three things with recapturing coal carbon emissions, conservation and renewable sources like solar, wind, biofuels and hydrothermal then we will have a comprehensive strategy that can bring us safely into the future and help insure our security and prosperity.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

DV,

I don't see people in here as corruptable. I see people in here as I would hope that they see me.

As I see it, we all have our belief structures and they mean different things to different people.

In the presidential race, people in here are going to vote for the person that identifies the closest with what they believe. As I am.

Do I agree with McCain in everything that he does? Nope. Did I agree with Bush in everything that he did? Nope. But I supported Bush and I will support McCain because he is the presumptive nominee and just so happens to be the most identifiable in regards to what I believe.

Don't let a single issue or maybe two or three together put you off from even voting. Voting is the singlemost important thing that you can do as a citizen. Deciding NOT to vote is probably the most wreckless thing anyone could do.

And I think that everyone in here would agree with that statement. No matter what side of the fence you're on.


America '08!

YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM

It's also important to point out that Obama is not saying that offshore drilling will bring down gas prices. In fact, I posted a quote from Obama saying he doesn't believe that offshore drilling will bring down gas prices.

What Obama is saying is that investing in other sources of energy besides petroleum is what will bring down gas prices. Anyone who is saying that Obama has said offshore drilling will bring down gas prices is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

If you support Bush and McCain, you are not a conservative by any logical definition. But you probably listen to too much talk radio.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Conservative...YES!!
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:04 PM

JTS,

Did you forget to take your medicine this morning?

It's a shame that you're missing your mid-afternoon saturday nap. It really makes you a bear!


YES!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

Looks like I disagree with some of you some more.

Conservative...YES!!, I don't believe voting is the most important thing I do as a citizen. I don't even find it to be as important as jury duty, in fact, which I think is very important.

Also, if I follow your line of reasoning, that we Americans aren't corruptable, then I am denying the history of human kind.

Evil rarely forces us to routinely make excruciating and difficult ethical decisions. How evil wins is by allows us to rationalize away amorality and unethical decisions by others, and letting evil slide in right next to us without protesting or making a fuss.

The Democratic party and candidate in 2004 were able to suppress my vote with their amoral pandering.

Now, sadly, because I truly was hoping for much, much more from Obama, they've succeeded in suppressing my vote again.

Our nation and world needs someone to stand and fight against the evil of the last 8 years, not shake hands and make deals with it.

If Obama isn't willing to do that, then he doesn't deserve my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

If you're looking for a candidate who's inflexible enough to never compromise, try George W. Bush. Or maybe Ralph Nader, who hasn't accomplished anything notable in forty-odd years.

There are issues about which I think compromise is inappropriate--FISA is one of them. But fighting offshore drilling to the bitter end---that's like demanding that we formally renounce the Tooth Fairy.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM

No... You are not conservative.

Face facts.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 04:57 PM

I know the difference between inflexibility and having the integrity to stand by one's principals, thanks.

I also know betrayal when I see it. Obama didn't just betray schmucks like me.

Far more dangerous for him in the run up to the fall season, he betrayed the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader, and stabbed them in the back while there was a House mutiny afoot by Republicans who refused to leave the chambers after Pelosi ended the session.

Or hadn't you heard about that?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM

DV-
Just how were you betrayed?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:22 PM

DV

I heard that there were a bunch of idiots standing on the House floor with the lights off. Do you actually think that such stunts make a difference?

If you are a single issue voter and your issue no offshore drilling then you have no one to vote for.

But if you somehow think that Obama has betrayed you, you are wrong. Obama did not say he was against all offshore drilling and Nuclear power. McCain did. Be careful not to take McCain's pronouncements on Obama's policies as Obama's policies.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:31 PM

Here is what is making a difference.

McCain's ad w/Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears was brilliant. While all the cable and talk radio pundits were screaming about the celebrity issue, the swing states where the ad actually ran shows the voters were listening to the main message of that commercial the punditocracy conveniently overlooked: Obama and offshore drilling.

The message: Obama cares more about his own celebrity, than the fact that you little guys are hurting over gas prices. I'm FOR offshore drilling, so you get relief at the pump.

Obama betrayed the entire environmental movement, not just me.

And the environment happens to be the one issue that is sacred to me. I already knew Obama wouldn't share my views about the war, and it was utterly predictable that he wouldn't stand up to the Republicans on FISA, for fear of being swift boated on national security.

But as I said, the cause of the environment was the crown jewel in the Obama platform.

No more.

He may have done more, single handedly, to drive voters into the arms of Ralph Nader, than anything Nader could have hoped to do in a million years.

And that is not A Good Thing.

The Gang of Ten proposal was a last ditich desperation measure, to give the Republicans more fodder for their campaign commercials they'll be working on during their "summer vacations".

Obama flipped, because of the polls (he has tanked in the wake of his Europe visit/the McCain ads), or because somebody in the energy industries got to him.

It is that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 05:58 PM

I am not against offshore drilling. I am against lying bastards who say it is a cure all for gas prices to get their fat cat oil buddies some new leases. So I am with Obama and you are welcome to your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:03 PM

Obama's position on drilling is now the same as Bush/McCain's position on this issue.

Congrats on being duped.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, as I am mine, and to continue to support the trojan horse candidate of your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:11 PM

DV-
as an avowed single issue voter, I guess that means you're voting for Nader? or the Green Party?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

I wouldn't vote for Nader, ever.

And the Greens haven't been any more effective on the environment than have the Democrats, so no, I don't support them either.

You know, it seems to me there are a number of people here who might be readers of The Nation? And maybe they have seen the "Open Letter to Barack Obama" put on their homepage in recent days?

You can read it in it's entirety here:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080818/open_letter

It has been signed publicly by many of the progressive "celebrities" of the left, and says, in part:

"We urge you, then, to listen to the voices of the people who can lift you to the presidency and beyond.

Since your historic victory in the primary, there have been troubling signs that you are moving away from the core commitments shared by many who have supported your campaign, toward a more cautious and centrist stance--including, most notably, your vote for the FISA legislation granting telecom companies immunity from prosecution for illegal wiretapping, which angered and dismayed so many of your supporters.

We recognize that compromise is necessary in any democracy. We understand that the pressures brought to bear on those seeking the highest office are intense. But retreating from the stands that have been the signature of your campaign will weaken the movement whose vigorous backing you need in order to win and then deliver the change you have promised."

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:35 PM

DV,

The differences are clear enough to those who will see them. I haven't been duped. I agreed with his position in the first place. I will say that I didn't like his position on FISA but I did agree with his vote FOR FISA, though I was against immunity for the telecoms. Otherwise Obama has been pretty much as I expected. Even though I am amazed by the number of lefties who have not being paying attention to what he has been saying.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

So, you were against immunity for telecoms in the FISA bill before you were for it?

And you were against offshore drilling before you were for it?

And don't confuse "lefties" with Democrats. Most of the progressives I know usually vote Democrat or don't vote, and many of them have been on the fence regarding Obama since it became clear he would be the nominee.

Obama is looking more and more like a Lieberman Democrat every day.

Last night at a BBQ at a friend's house, an acquaintance said (as we discussed the offshore drilling flip), that now all we had to do was wait for Obama to choose McCain as him VP.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM

DV,

A "Democrat" using Republican lines?

I was always for FISA and always against immunity. They are two separate things.

I was never against offshore drilling. But McCain and Bush are lying about its effect.

I've never been a Democrat. I have actively campaigned for Obama. I campaigned for him and will do so again because I have listened carefully to him and I think he is the best man with the best chance of making the progress I want and cleaning up Bush's mess.

Click on the link below and then in "chapters" go to "the nader issue" listen to that short section, the negative things he said about Bush and the damage he did is a pretty good summary of my position on US politics. We Can't afford FOUR MORE YEARS!

The nader issue.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:28 PM

Four more years is impossible. Bush isn't running.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:41 PM

Its possible. For more years of the same failed policies is looking almost likely.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 07:44 PM

Yes, and that's because there isn't a dimes worth of difference now between McCain and Obama, and looks like we are set to repeat the 2000 and 2004 elections without the hanging chads.

It is four more years guaranteed, if that is the yardstick you choose to measure the distance.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:02 PM

Well, well, well...

Looks as if DV has gone from the "very concerned" that Obama will lose the election to a one person Rovish wrecking crew here...

Me thinks that DV is no other than the very same GUEST that we have seen before... You know, like Dickey and Old Guy who were most likely George Bush plants/shills... Maybe a reinveneted Fantz... Same attack, attack, attack with no particular interst or caring about anything other than keeping the Bush administartion going full steam ahead...

Me sniffs a shill here...

I mean, what, 3000 friggin' anti-Obama posts in one day here in Mudville??? Hey, DV makin' McCain look l;ike an alter boy...lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:11 PM

And when reason and logic fail you, resort to the ad hominem?

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:18 PM

DV

You are not a hominem you are nameless and faceless. Ad trollinem maybe. I didn't believe you when you said you were supporting Obama. I don't believe what you are saying now. I think you are just trying to stir things up and to show how clever you are. You are clever, fairly clever. Why don't you just take a bow and be done with it?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:22 PM

No, not really, DV... This ain't no attack... You'll know if I ever attack... I just find it real curious that you have spent yer entire day camped out in front of your computer ready to mean-mouth Obama in any way and shape possible... That is an observation, not an attack...

I mean, if you look at the posting history of this htread you have been there to rebut every little positive thing that others have pointed out about Obama... If I were a psychiatrist and just looked at yer postiong history from today, without reading any of the posts, I would have to see that there is an obsession... I can't remember anyone other than compulsive Fantz having so mush tome on her hands as to sit by a computer ready to pounce on anyone who might think differently from you about Obama...

I mean, there is more to life than sitting in front of yer computer attacking folks... Really... Go for a drive.. Go to movie... Play yer geetar... Read a good book... But for gosh sakes, give the compulsiveness a break...

No attack here... Just good advice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:31 PM

Nice of you to keep attacking me, making me sound crazy, Bobert.

Speaking of obsessive though, looking in on any of the McCain threads, whose name do we see prominently displayed, often as the thread initiator, like in this thread?

Well, I'll leave that to others. I'm sure your mother taught you that pots shouldn't go calling the kettles black, right?

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 08:42 PM

Not 24/7, DV...

Hey, here's what you do... Click on "Bobert" and see my pattern of postings and you will plainly see that I have a life... I don't camp out in front of my computer...

Now look at your postings from just this thread today...

I rest my case...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM

Guilty as charged, Bobert. I've been online all day, going back and forth between a couple of my regular forums.

You could click on a LOT of peoples' names in this forum, and see the same thing.

So, your point, other than attacking me of course, is...?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:43 PM

JacktheSailor,

I have never claimed to be pro-Obama. I am anti-McCain, and stuck with the choice made by Democratic primary voters for this election season, whom I believe to be a weak candidate for the general. Said that repeatedly in this thread and others.

BIG difference.

The offshore drilling made me VERY angry, which I have also been honest and forthright about today. And it will end up being the straw that broke this camel's back.

Won't carry water for either of them now. I'll stay home and watch the election night madness with a good supply of cold beer, to dull the pain.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM

"...election night madness with a good supply of cold beer, to dull the pain."

I'll drink to that!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:54 PM

The point is very simple, DV... You need to get a life... You say on one hand that you are "very concerned" that Obama will loose and then go about spending yer entire day between here and yer "regular forums" attacking Obama...

That, "my friend", is not a life... It is a obsession...

A life involves turning off the computer... Going out into the real world... Seeing flowers... Going for a drive... Takin' in a movie... You know, like, ahhhh, doing anything other than sittin' in front of a stupid computer 24/7 with yer tummy in knots... That is a life...

I see by yer posting habits that this concept is a foriegn to you as you understanding about Obama... Square peg, round hole...

Yeah, you tried to give the impression that you were an Obama supporter with yer "very concerned" post and then have spent countless hours in attack mode...

Hey, I call 'um the way I see 'um... I respect DougR... I even respect beardedbruce... I respect Teribus... You win my respect and so far you seem very much like Dickey, Old Guy and Fanatz... All folks who play games and hide behind their "very concern's"...

You won't ever have to wonder where I am comin' from... My history here is rock solid... I don't play games... If I don't like yer polictics thenI say it... I don't play no stupid games about being "concerned" and then go about doing every thing in my power to make Obama the bad guy...

You, "my friend", are a McCain plant... You are also probably one of the 27% of the people who just love George Bush, his war and his fu*ked up ecomony... No attack... Just observations...

Good night...

B~

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,DV
Date: 02 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 08:50 AM

So John McCain, the straight talker is at it again this morning saying that the "only" part of Obama's energy plan that he (McCain) knows about is Obama telling folks to properly inflate their tires???

Now form that statement one can only surmise that John MCain is:

1. Dumber than a box of creek rocks or

2. Is lieing...

Seems that the wheels have come off the Straight Talk bus and been put on the Forked Tongue Express... Or worse, the Dumbass Express...

Tell ya' what, folks... For a guy who claims to be this "maverick" who can reach accross party lines McCain is showing to be a very traditional partisan candidate who has no interest whats so ever in bi-partisanship or uniting the country... These Rovish attacks are right outta the George W Playbook...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: GUEST,Rodentred
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:38 AM

Yes, Bobert. It's been well established in this thread the presidential candidates are a lying pack of scoundrels.

And?

On a related note, since some posters mention Nader, I see this morning he will be on the ballot in California. His plan is to be on the ballot in 45 states, and is already halfway there. Good on him. Give us an actual choice come November, rather than picking a fella from one of the two criminal syndicates, says I.

And every state in the nation should have a "none of the above" box for us to tick as well.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 09:51 AM

Hey, Fantz... That's a good thing... Even tho I'm gonna support and work in the Obama cmapaign, I love Ralph Nader... I think he's gotten the requisite number of signitures to be on the Virginia ballot... It's gonna be starnge not votin' for him... I hope he gets 5% and I hope Barr gets 5%... I'd love to see them in the '12 debates... That would be very cool indeed...

As for Obama being part of the "lying pack of scoudrels", I guess we're gonna, as per usual, not see things the same... McCain??? Yeah, he has proven over the last couple of weeks to show no shyness for the big lie...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 10:13 AM

Ahhhhhh....How much an acre, fantz???...lol...

Subject: RE: BS: McCain... Another lieing president???
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

"'And every state in the nation should have a "none of the above" box for us to tick as well.'"


                      Yes, Rodentred, that's exactly what we need. And if more people vote for NOTA than vote for any candidate, they ought to have to do the election over, until they come up with candidates that are worth voting for.