The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM

Well said, gentlemen.

You see, Little Hawk, there are people here who do get it. So why don't you climb down off your mountain and take a closer look? Get a clearer view of what's really going on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM

"The far-right, racist British National Party are beginning to win seats in local elections"

But as their entire membership list has just been published on-line, they may be thrown into a bit of disarray for a wee while...funnily enough, these racists are not liking being named and shamed. Wouldn't you think that someone who feels strongly enough to join
a political party would be happy to stand up and be counted?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:54 PM

Don's right LH - to get an accurate picture of something it's essential to view it from more than one point of view. Yours is valid, so is Don's. Mine is obviously vastly superior to anyone's because I'm up here and you're all down there. Just live with it - I have to. :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:14 AM

An aside; re Ruth Archer's comment about the BNP membership list; it's on wikileaks if anyone wants to look. I couldn't resist, and discovered a bit of savage irony. In 1936 my paternal grandfather organised a protest about a march by Oswald Moseley's fascist Blackshirts through my home town of Oldham. This culminated in a conflict, and 100 or so uniformed Blackshirts being thrown out of town by 25 or so working men (plus a couple of off-duty policemen). I wrote a song about it, and it's a proud moment in the history of my family, so imagine my surprise to discover that there is a BNP activist living in my grandfather's old house. The world turns...
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:44 AM

Did you notice if our former friend Dave Hannam was on the list?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 12:00 PM

Paul; yes, he's there. Deputy Treasurer of the party, no less!
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:31 PM

"but he hasn't half put up with some jip." (Stigweard)...as do many in modern England who dare to question immigration, and support nationalism; in 1950s England, however, my views would have been far less radical. Net migration alone has gone up by 1.8 million under New Labour - Blair, Brown, Darling, etc. all left Scotland for England and have supported so many others who wished to do similar. They didn't "fix the roof" (Brown) while the economic climate was good, they did, rather, let in this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for.
Blair said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...yes we do - this time, with eco-travel and fair-trade with other nations, rather than imperialism and conquest (which I hate, Don, Tim, etc. - be it Nazi, Victorian or any other).

And Don - instead of again distorting, amongst other things, my reply to your question on what music I think you should practise/perform (in brief, I said I'd probably try country/rock; and listen to Amerindian music, as I do now via the web), why don't you go ahead and do some recording for us?

"What I don't get is why he doesn't just leave, given his reception here?" (LH)...readers who don't post (the ones who do are mostly pro-immigrationists) have minds and mouses of their own - I do want a lot to read my life's work as I'm sure it's a good way forward for humanity.
But, to Olddude, a LOT of the 230 pieces in this collection are simple travel poems and songs...I said in my blurb that I've attempted to be "humoruous, informative and didactic".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:35 PM

We shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves, we should be fighting our common enemy . . .

THE JUDEAN PEOPLE'S FRONT!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

Errr...Wav; where did I mention imperialism or conquest? A little to quick to trot out your trite little mantra there, I think. Please read my post again, slowly and carefully. Try not to skip the bits you don't fully understand.
I wasn't implying you are a Nazi sympathiser either. What I said was that far-right groups like the BNP and the National Front hold views identical to yours, whilst also claiming that they are not racist, despite a string of convictions for racial crimes. They trawl the web looking for those of a like mind, and your views and 'life's work' are likely to end up as BNP evidence of support for their warped ideology. If you are comfortable with that, carry on promoting your utterly discredited websites; if not, pipe down and remove the offensive material. This is good advice WAV; I've seen very bad things happen to people in exactly this position, and I'm trying to help you here.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM

in 1950s England, however, my views would have been far less radical

It was an English government in the 1950s who invited many thousands of Jamaican workers to this country - the "Windrush" period - to help with the economy in the post-war period. Don't crack on about what was acceptable or unacceptable in the 1950s. I was there and you very much weren't. You haven't got the faintest idea what English culture and life was all about in the 1950s, or how the post-war period, for example, was very much affected in all sorts of ways by those returning from the experience of WW2. You can't imagine how people's ideas and philosophies in the '50s were coloured, for example, by the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, of Belsen. It affected those who'd lived through it as participants - and their ideas, mores and feelings affected how they coped with family life and their own children (such as me). You haven't got the weeniest concept of how it was in England in the 1950s. You were born on 1966 - I was married and just starting out as a professional musician in that year. I do remember the '50s and it was never the Golden Age of English Nationalism you've imagined it to be - never. Idiot!

You prove, once again, that you know nothing.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM

It's obvious that Franks is stuck irrevocably within his website and with his head up his arse. He's totally hidebound and, I suspect, deranged. I leave him to his delusions.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:56 PM

I can just imagine some disgruntled racist coming across such inflammatory bullshit as English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers and not only do they believe it, but it gives them the excuse they've been looking for and they go out and act upon it. One day it'll happen, if it hasn't already.

Let's not be fooled; Wavy is peddling, promoting and defending racial hatred. He is determined, self-righteous, and accountable to nothing but his insufferable arrogance. The fact that he isn't English is the supreme irony; basing his entire concept on a fantasy of the more-English-than-it-is-now 1950s and resolutely refusing to assimilate into the multi-ethnic reality of English society and culture as it exists today.

as do many in modern England who dare to question immigration, and support nationalism; in 1950s England, however, my views would have been far less radical.

this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for.

From now on? Don't believe a word of it; Wavy's agenda of racial hatred and ethnic cleansing is implicit in every word he has published and promoted, and every word he has written in its defence. This man is pure evil.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

I will record in my own good time, David, and when I do, the songs I record will be ones I have been singing to audiences for a good fifty years. I will also include songs I have learned just recently. I have yet not decided which songs I will record (I'm making a list, and I hope, eventually, to record my enter repertoire, but that will take a bit of time), but the songs I sing have been—and continue to be—drawn from a variety of sources and cultures:   England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, plus Anglo-American songs and ballads, including love songs, cowboy songs, railroading songs, sea chanteys. . . .    If it was collected by Bishop Percy, Sir Walter Scott, Francis James Child, Cecil J. Sharp, the Lomaxes, the Warners, et al, I consider it fair game.

I can assure you that I will most emphatically not be recording any county/rock. And "Amerindian" music is simply foreign to me, even to listen to except briefly, and simply does not "speak" to me the same way songs from the list in the above paragraph do—those are the songs of my culture.

In the movie "The Agony and the Ecstasy," the Pope (played by Rex Harrison) complained bitterly to Michelangelo (played by Charlton Heston) up on the scaffold busily painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, "Buonarroti [Michelangelo's last name], when will you make an end!??" To which Michelangelo responded from on high, "When I am finished!!"

That's when you'll have a chance to hear my recordings, David. When I am finished! I will be singing a variety of songs from a variety of cultures, I will be singing them on pitch, and most of them will be with guitar accompaniment.

You probably won't like them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:16 PM

David
your point to me is well taken. i have not read all of your work. I can only say that I think you can write, you have good imagery, I think your travels would be interesting to many folks including myself. I think some of the areas you get into are beneath you or any writer. If you think about others and how you would feel or do feel when everyone comes at you then you can understand that it is wrong to do. Please don't do that. I would like very much to read your poems with your travels and description of nature. It is beneath any artist writer or musician to write words that walk the line in area's of intolerance of others. The world has enough of those people. Hate only creates more hate. Do what you are good at and describe your travels and your take on nature. Just my suggestion for what it is worth. I have no writing skills but if I did, I would want to write about that which people will respect and remember. You do have that skill and I will leave you with that thought

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

Will,
Don't you remember the buxom barmaids and the teas on the cricket green, and quaffing mead merrily while all these johnny foreigners lived in their own good culture, which we all admired and found quaint but un-English, and we saw pictures of them on Pathe Pictorial and laughed at their antics, and then went home to all sing round the piano which played the melody line only...

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

Ah Stu - how you bring it all back to me... the mead was particularly good, as I recall. Funnily enough, so was the Pearl Carr & Teddy Johnson version of "Sing Little Birdy" and Max Bygrave singing "I'm a Pink Toothbrush". All good clean fun.

Mind you, there was that black Ray Ellington who sang on the Goon Shows - and that Dutchman, Max Geldray, who played jazz on his harmonica. Sullying our Good English Culture and polluting the folk singing of our Good Kathleen Ferrier!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:13 PM

I'm a pink toothbrush ???
somehow I missed that one, it is something like I'm a little teapot?

Ok, I tried, I made my plea ..

Will, Will , Will

hey put up some more video's ok they are great and that is no joke
good stuff

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

You want videos? There's over 100 of the little devils on YouTube at:
YouTube - Will Fly

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:46 PM

yea I think they are great, will check them out, I only saw 1
very cool, look forward to the others
thanks

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:38 PM

WaV, the days of British imperialism and conquest are long over. Read your history books. It couldn't happen even if we all wanted it to. As for your being pro-nationalism, nationalism has absolutely nothing to do with 'eco-travel' or 'fair trading'. Nothing. That is just your attempt to mask something inherently evil behind good intentions. To say your intentions are merely clueless and idiotic is being very generous indeed. Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism, and is an attitude which needs to be stamped out. Everywhere. If you don't understand why, you have an awful lot of learning to do before you open your foul mouth in front of decent, well intentioned people again. You are abusing the privilege of free speech and insulting the memory of people who fought, died, were tortured.. whatever.. to give YOU that privilege. (Not to mention a free lunch every day) This forum is an extension of that same privilege, and I take my hat off to the powers-that-be that allow you to continue to abuse it in this manner. I honestly don't know whether I could exercise that much tolerance.

On the other hand, it's probably beneficial to us all to be aware that **n*s like you actually exist out there..

Don't go troubling yourself to reply to me, it's quite satisfying enough for me to know you've read my post. I feel so much better for having given you my opinion - thank you.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:07 AM

wfwbr----------Let me try one last attempt at a serious post. to you. I dunno' why but I'm a glutton for punishment..............

You are not English.....You were simply born there. Do you have any real memory of the short time you lived in England after your birth? No, you don't. The two things that shape us are genetics and environment, most often called nature and nurture. No one questions your English genes, if you indeed have a mother and father of English descent. But that doesn't make you English. Your entire life was spent in Oz. Australian not by birth but by history, not bu nature but by nurture. Your life was spent living the good Australian culture and probably some sub-culture as in Western Australian or whatever.

Step back and tell me that is all meaningless to you. If you can you're an ass. We are who we were reared and are products of that environment. Try as you might you cannot become a Yorkshireman any more than I can.   You can't be a Londoner or a Frenchman or a New Yorker either and believe me, you stand out for your difference where you are as much as if you were trying to be Japanese in Kokura. You're an Aussie.

I grew up in eastern Ohio in the United States. In my young adulthood I moved here and there and my job took me to various places to live and I loved them all I think. I lived in Chicago and Chattanooga, Charlotte and eastern Kentucky, Atlanta, and Nashville. I had very short stays (3-4 months) in New Orleans, New York, and Los Angeles, when my company had me troubleshooting lower performance regions. I loved something or another about all those places and did my best to sort of fit in as best I could but I could never be a Tennessean anymore than you could. Its a great place and I wish I'd grown up in Nashville but I didn't and though I loved the place and tried to be a good citizen of Nashville, I was an Ohioan. Then one day after much soul searching I decided to "move home."

I now live about 75 miles from where I was born. Same place, different name.........eastern/central Ohio is always eastern/central Ohio. Its not the greatest place in the world to live......but its the place I know best and where I can be honest......and be me. Now you don't have to move back home to be honest, but that, young man, is what life is about......honesty.   The first person you need to be honest with and about is yourself.

You can live wherever you want and enjoy it but you need to be honest about who you are. You can't sing as though you are someone you're not. Don Firth lives in the northwest USA and I have no idea if he was born there but Don is honest about who he is and can sing about places and people far away from himself and his history because he sings with honesty. Will Fly sings with honesty. Most of those who have tried hard to help you out a bit are probably much the same. Ruth Archer has taken a giant plunge into English traditions and culture but I can tell simply by reading her words that she knows well the person she is.

There are others on this thread like Hawk and myself who continually question ourselves about who we are and are we being honest to that person within......if we could just figure out who is within. But even that makes Hawk honest about himself and with hinself except for a minor complication related to Winona Ryder.

You come off as phony in everything. Whether it is in your poems or in your music or even (and especially) the character you present here, you are a liar. You can't sing the songs of anyone or anywhere as a liar because liars present only the mechanics and generally even that badly. Watching, reading, and listening, to your pathetic affectations gives your "audience" here the distinct impression you haven't anything at all inside. You are a shell without real substance and you are trying to wear the clothes of another, not your own culture and they don't fit. Its obvious to one and all..........except for you.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:29 AM

An earlier post from someone was right. Regardless of the content of WAV's beliefs, this thread is bullying.
A bunch of people log on regularly to punch a punching bag, sometimes posting nowhere else. The lynch mob is always a mob, even when it goes after someone who is 'really' 'guilty'. Scapegoating never says something positive about the community that tolerates it.

Many complain that WAV won't change his views. After more than 1000 posts, you are still trying?! Who's the dupe? Who is the more stubborn? Wake up to human nature and reality--even persuasion from right-thinking speakers in the name of justice doesn't work unless it is persuasive. The attention here quite obviously serves as encouragement; it is not effective persuasion.

If one person refuted objectionable posts each time, and others added their views about other topics to other threads, the objectionable thread would sink off the bottom of the page quite fast into deserved silence and temporary oblivion.

If you are really concerned about standing up against racism and crypto-racism,--well worth doing, of course--do it where it counts. There are more appropriate and effective forums for free speech, debate, and refutation.
And Spaw, using WAV as your punching-bag pretext for entertaining others with unbridled foulmouthery is a meretricious, equally attention seeking misuse of free speech--taking advantage of a license allowed to no other posters. I say clean it up.

Right, I'm outta here--hat, coat, suitcase, ticket, and a clothespeg for my nose so I don't smell that stench of this thread anymore.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:08 AM

Regardless of the content of WAV's beliefs, this thread is bullying.

It's not WAV's beliefs that are at issue here, it's the fact that he publishes and promotes them. Free speech is one thing - publishing inflammatory racist lies is quite another, as is co-opting folk and traditional music to his vile self-righteous reactionary cause.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,stigweard working out and about
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

"You are not English....."

He is what he wants to be. No-one can dictate anyone else's identity, and they don't have the right to question some else's sense of who they are.

"You can't be a Londoner or a Frenchman or a New Yorker either and believe me"

What? You have to be English to be a Londoner? Identity isn't that simple I'm afraid.

If he feels English, if he feels this Island is home then not one person can tell him it isn't. If WAV is posting his views here honestly at least he is being himself, however repugnant we find them.

See those 10,000 tossers on the BNP list? Most of them will be Engish. WAV is not alone in his views unfortuately.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:34 AM

WAV is universally reviled, get that through your head peregrina and maybe you will understand.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM

It's very easy to do what peregrina has done, which is - more or less - to fly over the crowd, crap on it from on high, and then fly off before anyone can take a pop. However, peregrina raises an interesting dilemma.

I've reflected considerably on how one deals on a discussion board with someone like Franks, i.e. someone who spouts what I and others believe to be vile views, filled with stupidity, bigotry and racism masked under a superficial cloud of buzzwords such as "eco-travel", etc. One can:

1. Expunge him and his views completely from the board
2. Go all out and attack him and his views remorselessly
3. Reason and debate with him on the views that he holds
4. Ignore him and his views in the hope that they will fade away

The problem with a bigot like Franks is:

(a) he is totally thick-skinned and impervious to reason and comment - amazing in someone who knows so little about most of the things that he writes about and who is so untalented

(b) he regularly uses this board and many others to promote his views

(c) he uses no facts or other sources to back up anything he writes but refers constantly back to his website, which is the hide he has wrapped around him

(d) the nature of Mudcat is that it allows a freedom of debate and opinion - for better or worse (and hurray for that)

I've done a bit of research and seen that Franks posts on other discussion boards and websites - and gets much the reaction that he gets here. So we have a choice. We can either do what peregrina suggests, and just let him fade away, or we can say to ourselves "he may spew his rubbish all over the net, but we're not going to let him get away with it unchallenged here".

On balance, I think I tend to the second course of action. We can't help what he does elsewhere, but it somehow seems wrong to just let him say what he wants to - over and over again - without challenging it. People may think a mountain is being made out of a molehill and that it's all just a waste of time. However, one of the features of the Mudcat style is that it does test the individual. It illustrates the old musician's saying, "You may be good, but there's always somone out there better than you." In short, if I post something that's wrong or controversial, someone on Mudcat will inevitably put me right. Why should someone like Franks therefore, who spouts abhorrent philosophies, be allowed to rest quietly and go unchallenged?

It's a decision that individuals have to make for themselves.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

Stiggy, I must have done a piss poor job of making the point because I don't disagree with you.

I believe that anyone can be who and what they wish if theyre first honest about themselves. I DO NOT believe WFWBR has ever been honest and fails to take his history good or bad into any account. That is my most generous view of his actions. If not that then he's the person he portrays here and if that's honest.........he deserves what he gets. I would hope instead that in his headlong rush to be "English" he would take his other and real roots into account and the actual and real country he tries to make home.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Will, I think there's a middle way among the alternatives that you propose.

If the posters here would, say, adopt one agreed form of words such as:

'these views do not represent any kind of consensus on mudcat and most find them unacceptable. We let them stand only because we value freedom of expression.'


--then one person posts it each time, the first one who opens the renewed thread, each time the thread comes to the top. No fruitless debate, the unacceptability of the views is clear to any visitor and the thread sinks until WAVs next post receives the exact same answer.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:03 AM

Peregrina - I agree that that's a sensible and reasonable course and action. Trouble is, I just wonder if it would work - given the nature of this particular individual - and given the nature of the 'Catters. I think more than a modicum of collective self-control is necessary!

And thanks for flying back. :-)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM

Peregrina; agreed, and the form of words looks good to me.
Tim

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:25 AM

peregrina, won't work. If we stop posting, he'll just post more of his ruddy "poems".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:33 PM

To me, these are the words (Franks's) that show his true nature. He says that the current government have sanctioned:

this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for.

Thanks to IB for reminding me of this. The phrase "...hoping for the ethnic vote" reveals so much, doesn't it? It just shows that it's not immigration per se that Franks is against - it's the ethnic, i.e. racial difference. I don't think the current government has many morals, but even I can't see them encouraging immigration just to get more votes. What a vile, sneering and stupid statement. As far as the idea "...that many citizens...are going to pay for" - Franks won't be paying. He's being paid for.

And wildlife? Where does that come from?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:45 PM

I have been trying to find the BNP list without success,is wav on it, where can it be found?
I believe WAV said he was a supporter of The English Democrats,I am not sure of the difference between the two,presumably there is a difference,does anyone know?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:46 PM

From what I see going back through the posts, many people are trying to appeal him to change. Now if he does or not that really is his decision. I only hope he does, it would be nice to be able to discuss with him a poem that is worth the time to read. A person will do what they want I guess, I cannot in honesty fault the negative feedback . The people here that said the harsh things are very good people just outraged. I wish David would take my advice and that of others. It would be nice to have a conversation on his work that was positive and productive to him. I completely understand the reaction. It is very hard for me to hold back . I find the intolerance unacceptable. I would hope we can help him to change his thinking and strive for work that will enrich others lives as art is meant to do. I bet the reaction would be one of encouragement as I see all mudcatter do for everyone in this community. Some people will not change and then we can only say we tried. Some will take the advice and really think about what they said and how it hurts. I hope the second case is true. I would love to see him change for the better with a work that we could review and encourage.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 12:58 PM

At least while he's occupied on here, he isn't out preaching his poison to more gullible people. Confound him with logic; waste his time; let him be a joke; render him harmless.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

"This man is pure evil." (IB)..surely my criticism of New Labour is calm and analytical compared with your "all mother fuckers." And I do, by the way, agree with them, and other political parties, on SOME things - being the realist that I am.
And, to Olddude, with that realism, I have penned "Walkabouts: travels AND CONCLUSIONS in Verse", which I stand by. And, if and when you do read it all, you will NOT find any "hate" of any particular culture/race - just a questioning of the ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF.

"Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism," (Smokey)...it is to mis-led pro-immigrationists like you or, at least, you deliberately try to paint it that way, because you don't like immigration being questioned; and, in saying that, you not only offend me but all the many members of Plaid Cymru, the SNP, etc. Nationalism with eco-travel and fair trade, rather than greedy imperialism and conquest, is NOT racist or fascist, and, further more, I'm very sure it will make our world a more peaceful interesting place.

And, as I said last post, it remains mostly, not solely, a group of pro-immigrationists using various, some of them disgusting, tactics - because in some of my poems and posts I've dared to question immigration; and, by the way, IB's above remark was because, over the last year or so, New Labour themselves have questioned and regulated immigration more. He, as with a few others here, really does hate immigration being questioned - but, as I also said in my last post, those who read without posting here have minds of their own...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

I am neither a pro nor an anti-immigrationist. The only ist I am is a multi-instrumentalist. I stand by what I said about nationalism - all of it, not just what you quoted. You should, however, be aware that I regard nationalism as a concept, not a bunch of people. Ists and isms are two different things.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM

"this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for."

Bingo. Let me ask a question you have neglected to answer in the past: You say that British citizens are going to have to "pay for" this record amount of immigration. How have you helped the current economic situation by coming to Britain? And who is contributing more to English society, an immigrant who comes here and pays his way, or a "re-patriate" who lives on the dole?


Have you actually visited the BNP website, David, as you've been asked to do in the past, to see whether their views reflect your own? If not, why not, when you expect people to follow the endless links to your website?

I once posted a list of statements from the BNP website and asked if you agreed with them. Characteristically, you would not answer. So let's try again:

1. "IMMIGRATION - time to say ENOUGH!

On current demographic trends, we, the native British people, will be an ethnic minority in our own country within sixty years.

To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question."

Agree or disagree?


2. "We will also clamp down on the flood of 'asylum seekers', all of whom are either bogus or can find refuge much nearer their home countries."

Agree or disagree?


3. "We further believe that British industry, commerce, land and other economic and natural assets belong in the final analysis to the British nation and people. To that end we will restore our economy and land to British ownership. We also call for preference in the job market to be given to native Britons."

Agree or disagree?

4. "We will end the practice of politically correct indoctrination in all its guises and we will restore discipline in the classroom, give authority back to teachers and put far greater emphasis on training young people in the industrial and technological skills necessary in the modern world. We will also seek to instill in our young people knowledge of and pride in the history, cultures and heritage of the native peoples of Britain."

Agree or disagree?


And don't be a pedant - feel free to substitute "English" for "British" - just tell us whether you agree with the sentiments or not.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:46 PM

because in some of my poems and posts I've dared to question immigration

Because, for the umpteenth time, you consistently question immigration on racist grounds.

What would your response be if a million English expats immigrated from Canada or Australia or Spain? Would you question their immigration? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: olddude
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

David
if you stand by your views then I can only say that I will not continue reading, it is sad, I read you imagery and I see good things there, then off on the immigration. if you are going to do that you take away the beauty that you paint. You can stand by your views and your work. But sadly I cannot read them further. I don't get it, it is a waste of talent I think and you don't do yourself service. So I bid you good luck, I will not visit again.

   Down and along an escarpment,

    Meanders a thin stony path;

    Beside which grow the camellias -

    Beaut. autumn-blooms the aftermath.

    With the evergreen-camellias

    Are a range of native species;

    And, atop the leafy hillside,

    A shop sells snacks, coffees and teas.



    Plus, down below, there is parkland,

    Where couples rest as children play;

    And they walkabout the fish ponds,

    Or the shoreline of Yowie Bay.


(But, with more thought over the years,

   I'd say - natives not camellias.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:10 PM

And if anyone doubts my motives for being here, THIS is what motivates me. From the BNP manifesto:

"Torch bearers of culture

The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations."

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:11 PM

WAV you've invented a group of tormentors called pro immigrationists on this forum. They don't exist except as a bizarre defence of your postings, or to be charitable perhaps as a figment of your paranoia.

We've generally welcomed you in your earlier posts; some have defended you to others. Many have offered you friendly advice, mostly rejected (although I'm delighted to see that your e.g., count is down and your punctuation is improving). Some have shared personal difficulties and aspirations with you which you have then used as a stick to beat them with - for example IB and DF.

Many people have lost patience with your desecration of this valued and erudite forum: hence the attacks.

However you feel your attitudes are, it is your presentation of those attitudes that give us the yardstick to measure you by. If you believe you are misrepresented, it is your own posts that are misrepresenting you.

You could learn so much from Mudcat. Most of us have.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:23 PM

Yet, thankfully, there is no David Franks on the BNP's 1997 membership list. Maybe not even he is that daft.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:45 PM

But looking at the statements of the BNP that Ruth has posted above, it looks to me as if David has quoted most of them practically word for word.

One can be in total sympathy with a particular cause without being a "card-carrying member."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM

"Yet, thankfully, there is no David Franks on the BNP's 1997 membership list. Maybe not even he is that daft. "

Maybe they're not that daft..
Anyway, do they allow foreigners to join?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

Hello Thready's, just scanning one of the biggest threads onlist here for the first time, and some of the BNP material quoted below I find interesting. My apologies for not reading the *whole* thread or catching all comments and I'm guessing these thoughts will echoe others, but I'm only becoming vaguely aware of British fascists appropriating traditional English culture to their cause, and that very recently. De ja vue? I seem to have a faint recollection of hearing about something similar happening in Germany a couple of generations back... I've also been curious recently to discover that there seems to be a virtually overtly fascist element in some modern folk, with so-called 'industrial folk' music. Which appears to philosophically identify with Nazisms Volk movement. Is this a big problem in todays folk movement, and is it a growing one? And if so, what's to be done?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM

being the realist that I am

You are many things, Wavy - a realist, however, is not one of them.

with that realism, I have penned "Walkabouts: travels AND CONCLUSIONS in Verse", which I stand by. And, if and when you do read it all, you will NOT find any "hate" of any particular culture/race - just a questioning of the ACT OF IMMIGRATION ITSELF.

You persist in this very particular definition of racism whilst continuing to question immigration in the most racist ways imaginable - as others have shown here quite categorically. Your recent comment this record amount of capitalist/economic immigration (perhaps hoping for the ethnic vote) that many citizens, and wildlife, are now going to pay for illustrates this perfectly.

"Nationalism is but one step away from racism and fascism," (Smokey)...it is to mis-led pro-immigrationists like you or, at least, you deliberately try to paint it that way, because you don't like immigration being questioned;

Whatever one's personal feelings on immigration, to question immigration on such entirely erroneous grounds as English culture is taking a hammering (etc.) is racist. Also, to call anyone who disagrees with you on this mis-led (sic) in this respect is typical of the arrogant self-righteousness that is your overriding consideration in all aspects of your Life's Work.   

and, in saying that, you not only offend me but all the many members of Plaid Cymru, the SNP, etc.

Any member of the SNP or Plaid Cymru would be more than merely offended at the suggestion that their cause is in any way, shape or form like yours, Wavy - they'd be justifiably outraged.

Nationalism with eco-travel and fair trade, rather than greedy imperialism and conquest, is NOT racist or fascist, and, further more, I'm very sure it will make our world a more peaceful interesting place.

Further evidence of your Realism no doubt! Such a world could only exist by being policed by a centralised military authority - your Stronger UN no doubt - and interesting is the last thing it would be, with cultures reduced to isolated museum pieces and regulated theme parks. This is your vision of a Nice Multi-Cultural World - bland, static, defined and regulated according to the central rule book. As a synopsis for dystopian sci-fi it works a treat, but only as a background for the struggle for individual identity and resistance to such nightmarish totalitarianism as such as we find in The Prisoner, 1984 and The Wicker Man, all of which feature very WAV-like cultural anti-utopias overseen by a malcontent absolutist authority not unlike the one you're proposing.   

And, as I said last post, it remains mostly, not solely, a group of pro-immigrationists using various, some of them disgusting, tactics - because in some of my poems and posts I've dared to question immigration

You are being questioned because of the racist ideology that is the whole of your anti-immigration policy. It is your stance that is disgusting, Wavy - any opposition to it is to be highly commended.

and, by the way, IB's above remark was because, over the last year or so, New Labour themselves have questioned and regulated immigration more. He, as with a few others here, really does hate immigration being questioned - but, as I also said in my last post, those who read without posting here have minds of their own...

Whatever my personal feelings on New Labour, the fact remains that British / English / Scottish / Welsh / Irish / Manx (etc.) Culture is entirely the consequence of thousands of years of ongoing invasion and immigration and that there is not one single element of Our Own Good Culture or the Own Good Cultures of anywhere that is not derived from somewhere else. Your so-called realism is to misrepresent and mislead the reality of such human & cultural complexities by reducing them to the risible clichés you offer forth as Our Own Culture and Values, which we are somehow in danger of losing. Culture is nothing without People; without People Culture could not exist, yet People can, and do, exist, quite happily, without Culture - Folk Culture especially. People come, and People go; Culture changes; Culture is what IS, not what WAS, nor yet what SHOULD BE. Your vision of culture is about as far removed from the realities of England in 2008 as one could possibly wish, and yet you persist in the notion that this insane fantasy vision is somehow a good way forward for humanity...

But, as with racism, no doubt you've got your own personal definition of realism too...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:10 PM

My tuppeny regarding "the hammering of English culture", is that the English themselves hammered it, through 'our' dominator expansionistic Empire. The Empire became bloated on the fat of other nations, it became affluent, lazy and complacent in it's assumptions of natural superiority to all other cultures and races.
In the South-East especially, the English 'aspirational classes' (Ikea and Panini) are to a far greater degree responsible for the abandonment of native culture, in favour of more 'sophisticated' ideals, than any amount of immigrant cultures (who to their credit and our benefit, seem to manage to *maintain their own cultures exceedingly well, outside of their own lands..)

So Loadsa Money loves traditional English folk music now after swilling several pints of continental lager and wearing Chelsea shirts pumped out in some Indian sweat shop...
How intriguing.
The last popular traditional English song I recall these boys singing was "there ain't no black in the Union Jack".
Perhaps the ever generous Mudcatters on here might enlighten these born-again tradionalists, that if they want to be strictly 'traditional' they should be singing ye olde refrain "there ain't no black in the Union Flag", but sadly that 'un don't rhyme.
Which makes it a bit inconvenient for tiny minds.

Still, all bollox aside, I'm very interested in the fascist appropriation of 'traditional English culture', is it a latent problem in folk music, or is it a developing one? What's the deal?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: peregrina
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

The study and collection of folklore (as opposed to just the doing of it by the folk) pretty much began across Europe in connection with Romantic Nationalism.

The beginning of much study of medieval history began in that same wave of fervour, which created 'histories' really myths about the origins of nations and their boundaries, often called moments of primary appropriation.

In reality, as archaeology and linguistics can show, we are a diasporic species, peoples have always moved (we were all nomads once) and language, music and food alike mirror all mirror perpetual cultural contact and exchange.


Now, what would the diet of the isolationist be? No tomatoes, chili, no potatoes, no sweet corn...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:16 PM

1400!!!!!!

Sorry. I just couldn't resist.