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Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 06 Jun 99 - 06:19 PM Sorry Kat. My last post was not a reply to yours, our post's must have crossed. They have crossed again, this a reply to your first one. I don't understand how, if you feel so deeply that you have been and continue to be excluded from the larger society that you refer to as "your society" (meaning mine, nor yours), why you cannot see that creating your own (for the illusion of your own safety), which excludes everyone else, will only produce the same feeling of alienation in that larger community and can only increase the hostility that you complain of. If you remove yourselves, your views and influence from larger society, how can you then condemn it for being 'hetro' biased? My thinking re the proposed (by me)'gay' Mudcat thread, was not that it would not be safe, more that it would not be necessary. I for one do not care about anybody's sexual preferences. It is not necessary surely to know that information to enable us to be friends and share songs, jokes and views? I could tell you mine, but why should I think you or anyone would be interested? If we can agree here, to disagree on other subjects, why should any difference in preferences, sexually or otherwise come between us? But given the tone of one of your later replies I am beginning to regret that I have taken a large piece of shiny of bait. I live on the some planet as you, the difference between us seems to be that you do not want to share it. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Jeri Date: 06 Jun 99 - 07:08 PM Just because a person has a second, smaller group they belong to doesn't mean they reject the whole of society. I'm a member of the folk community where I live because the community in general doesn't understand folk music, and many don't like it. That's fine, but I want a place to go where I can be a folkie.
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: MAG (inactive) Date: 06 Jun 99 - 07:11 PM Tracy Chapman? Castleberry & Dupree? There is always Laura Nyro's "Emily." Margie Adam wrote some, I think. (hard G) Maggie Savage is gay, isn't she? openly? Great band in Seattle called Righteous Mothers. I have an old old LP by a women's band out of Boston with a great song called "Unfinished Business." and Shambles, kids where I live now get thrown out of their homes for being effeminate. MA -- heterosexual. I can't help it; just born that way. (sigh.) |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 06 Jun 99 - 07:23 PM Too bad you think I don't want to share, Shambs. Thats it for me. kat |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Matthew B. Date: 06 Jun 99 - 08:32 PM Oy vey. I think I'll become gay just to piss off Pat Robertson. On second thought, I'll piss him off even more by being "straight" and yet totally accepting of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters everywhere. So, take that, Pat. Nyah nyah |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Allan S. Date: 06 Jun 99 - 08:38 PM In reference to "the handsome cabin boy" Somewherer I read that "The history of the English navy was THe lash, Rum and Sodomy" Isn't the song Jackaroe A reference to cross dressing. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Big Mick Date: 06 Jun 99 - 09:54 PM I just love Mudcatters, be they gay, straight, lesbian, bi, Chinese, HIspanic, Blonde, hairy armpits, whatever. Who people choose to associate with (because they are comfortable, or feel safer, etc.)has no bearing on what is right or wrong in the world. The simple fact of the matter is that people who are what they are by the grace of God, are discriminated against for something (like sexual orientation)in which they by and large had no choice in the matter. In my mind that is inherently evil, which means that I must use my ability as a bard to sing out against it. Anytime a young man or woman must hide their essential nature because they are fearful of physical and mental harm, this is a sickness which must be rooted out and eradicated. I am not bothered by Shambles acceptance of person's sexual orientation, I accept him at his word that he does not make his decisions about people on that basis. What bothers me is the attitude that as long as one does not make judgements on that basis that they have done enough. To illustrate what I mean let me tell you about the time that I was lecturing a visiting group of Irish Business owners and trade unionists on US Labor Law as opposed to Irish/Northern Irish/British Labor law. I had been asked by the School of Industrial Relations at Michigan State University to do the lecture. At one point we talked about the US civil rights movements and labor's role in the struggle. This obviously led to a discussion of civil rights in the North. At the break a very nice gentleman of the Orange persuasion came up to me. He was very genuine in his expression of regret over the discrimination that the Irish Catholics in the North had suffered. And he said to me the very words that I had heard otherwise very nice white people say to me about black people. "I know it is wrong, but I didn't do it. Why should I have to suffer, or even make it right" I was knocked out. It brought home the universality of the struggle. It is not good enough to recognize evil, avoid it, and not practice it. You insure it's spread when you do. You must actively root it out, and do your best to eradicate it. And so it is with the gay/lesbian/bi community. One's sexual orientation is not on my checklist of reasons to have someone as a friend. Is their lifestyle mine? Nope. Do I think God will punish them for it? I'm not smart enough to figure that out, they, as we all, will have to deal with God on that one. But I do know some things that God has communicated in very clear terms. Love one another as I have loved you. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Will I sing the songs of their struggle? You bet your life I will. As I said in the beginning of this long diatribe. Any time one is discriminated against because of what they are born, I am there.
And I think this is a very important thread. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: MAG (inactive) Date: 06 Jun 99 - 11:04 PM Oh, and Si Kahn wrote the one where the chorus goes: "They say that in his younger days he loved another man And when the talkin'started, his friend died by his own hand; There were wispers from the women, and hard talk from the men But the curtains on Old Joe's house were never drawn again. -- MA |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: DonMeixner Date: 06 Jun 99 - 11:08 PM I have heard a Donovan song mention several times but with never the same title. Are we talking of several songs or one song. I suspect we are talking about "Try For The Sun" from the "Fairy Tale" album. I seem to recall that in an interview when asked about this song Donovan said it was not about Homosexuality. But then I'm recalling an interview that I read in highschool(1968?) and a recording I haven't played in thirty years. We Stood in the windy city, The Gypsy Boy and I,..... And who is going to be the one, to say it was no good what we done, I dare a man to say I'm too young, for I'm going to try for the sun." Kat, I am unsure how to proceed with my comment. I feel that these songs and statements made by their songwriters are important and should be made. I simply worry that by categorizing them so strictly you are pulling them away from the mainstream.(Maybe a bad choice of words here) I hate going to Border's and looking at the CDs and seeing Male Vocalists and Female Vocalists. Whats wrong with with Vocalists or Vocal Musicians? I don't want to see an article about Holly Near, feminist vocalst. I want to see just Holly Near, pretty good singer. Don |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Night Owl Date: 07 Jun 99 - 12:52 AM Wondering if we can include Don Meixner's WISE words of June 4th in the Mudcat book..... ;o) "I am a person who through the course of a day will meet and work with other people. Some will be straight and some will be gay but in the cosmic scheme it won't matter to me who is and who ain't. What will matter is that we parted, fairly served by each other, and neither was diminished by the experience." Thanks Don....WELL SAID!! |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Jun 99 - 05:12 AM Kat, it has taken some time and many prior replies to you to realize that you are (bravely) of a persuasion other than mine! (This is Lion BTW!) Not to sound trite, but lots of my friends are gay. Some I met through my eldest daughter (25) who made friends with many gay guys at high school. Some have experienced predjudice, and one in particular, from his own father who disowned him. I have always thought that people should not judge others by anything but the way we are treated by them. I have had gay friends who died from AIDS, and the loss of a friend is a tragedy regardless of who they might sleep with. Also, why at the mention of "gayness" do people immediately think of sex? Not all gay people are having sex, just like many heterosexuals who are not "getting lucky'?!* If you think about it, there's more to life!! Not much maybe, but there is !!! |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Jun 99 - 05:28 AM I must stop double clicking!!! Kat, if you come back, I wanted to tell you that I have often been heard to say no, I'm not a Lesbian, but I wish I were. Probably doesn't help any, but I think women rule!!! So there! Lion |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Helen Date: 07 Jun 99 - 06:20 AM Big Mick, You've said it so well. I see it from a number of perspectives, including the union background, and rather than trying to take a page or two to say what I think & feel, and what experiences I have lived through in my life, I'll just go with Mick's view. It's so close to my own view any way. I've lived on the other side too, and theory versus reality don't match up yet, sad to say. I finally had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't be brave enough to live that life, but I'm still getting repercussions from the past and that was 15-25 years ago. Love to all in this thread, Helen
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jun 99 - 09:10 AM I am pretty sure that there are people reading this thread who have views far more extreme than mine. Until they respond and I hope they don't, I seem to be cast, (somewhat surprisingly) as the resident homophobe. This without knowing any of my personal circumstances and as a result I have had to endure all of the well-rehearsed, conditioned responses. To be put in that role for expressing the mild views that I have, confirms my worst fears. If you go back and read what I have actually said, in the context that I said them and not to assume that I have any hidden agenda, you will see that they were indeed mild views expressed for positive reasons. All I am trying to say is that although there is still a long way to go, there has been a lot of progress. Not to recognise this is folly and to 'draw the wagons round' and continue to use the same 'shock' tactics that were once necessary, is now counter-productive. As is to make the assumption that anyone who is not with you, is against you. For as in any campaign for civil rights it is important to get the bulk of public opinion on your side. I am honestly confused however as to what situation is preferable. (I have posed these questions in a social setting, but this is not to trivialise other areas) 1 Is one where Don, I and others would treat you as we find and where you could wine, dine and dance openly with the partner of your choice, and be accepted anywhere you choose to go? 2 Or is it one where you continue to be recognised as a special case, have Mick sing songs for you and wine, dine and dance surrounded only by other gay people? In my opinion, and for what it is worth, the first is possible and certainly worth struggling for and the longer we continue with the second, the longer we will have to wait for the first. It was said that the media creates stereotypes, but surely the 'gay community' also, is guilty of creating their own and ones which I am pretty sure a lot of gay people do not necessarily fit in to, or indeed want to. A choice between 'the devil and the deep blue sea'. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Jun 99 - 09:28 AM Nobody is casting you as anything but what your words tell us, Shambs. I do not think of you as a homophobe. I just wish you would get rid of those damn rose-coloured glasses and reread my posts and the others for what they really say. You give two choices of worlds, the first of which is possible in a limited way only. Nothing is so black and white when it comes to such issues in the real world. You just don't want to or aren't getting it. Give it a rest, as we will never see eye to eye and we'll probably both muddle along regardless. kat |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Rosebrook Date: 07 Jun 99 - 10:33 AM Hi Shambles, I'm really unclear about the points you are trying to make. If I understand you correctly, you are having trouble with the term or concept of a "gay community". You see this as inclusively separate entity from mainstream society, and you are concerned that by perpetuating this separatist community, the acceptance of gay people will be a longer time coming than had there not been a gay community at all. Is this an accurate summary of your view? Is this a fair re-statement of your feelings? I guess I would want to hear what your understanding of the "gay community" is. To me, when people with common interests meet and talk or have potlucks or parties it seems like a very natural thing. Historically, gay people have had to meet secretly. Now, gay folk are more "out of the closet". I get together with other gay moms and talk about struggles particular to us as lesbian mothers. I get a lot of support and validation. See, everywhere else in life I am told and shown that there is something wrong with me. Together, we can effect change. We *are* effecting change. I am a part of the gay community. I am also a part of the local folk music community. Professionally, I am also a part of the educational community. And of the local Jewish community. I am also part of humankind! To see me as *only* gay is not to see me as a whole person. But I am part of the gay community, also. You are probably also a part of many groups, clubs, and organizations. You made statements about it being time to move on. You stated that without earlier demonstrations people would still be living in fear. And you think it's time to move on. Several people then mentioned the fact that hate crimes abound, and there is still cause for gay people to live in fear. In response to this, you complained that you "have had to endure all of the well-rehearsed, conditioned responses". Do you think that hate crimes are a figment of our collective imaginations? Do you think that it is in some manual we get when we sign on that instructs us to respond this way? What are your feelings on hate crimes? I think there's something about this issue that personally threatens you in someway. I'm not calling you the "resident homophobe". I'm reading your comments and I question why you are unsupportive of gay people gathering together. I don't understand why you are uncomfortable with gay people supporting each other. You accuse a vague someone of "attracting young people to the gay community" when they would be perfectly welcome in a larger community. Are you saying that gay youth would be better supported in the world at large than within the gay community, or are you saying there is a recruitment program? Should I be trying to collect enough enrollees to get me a toaster oven? I question your use of the word "attract". Groups like PFLAG offer education and support. There are political groups trying to change legislation for equity. There are singers like Mick who are trying to raise consciousness. Do you frown on all of these activities? This is the work of the gay community. To answer your question, I would much prefer to dance with and hold hands with my sweetheart anywhere I choose rather than only in our home. The truth of the matter is, we would risk bringing violent repercussion upon ourselves if we did. The reason for that is not because I participate in the gay community, but because there are scared and hateful people out there. The attitudes and actions of those people is the problem. Rose
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Jun 99 - 12:02 PM Very well said, Rose! Thank you, thoughtful, concise, and how true! kat |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 99 - 01:29 PM Shambles, I have watched you do this so many times, that quite frankly I tire of it. I have re-written this a number of times, as I began to go after your attempts to belittle my work. I choose not to do that. But I would suggest one thing to you, Shamb. Try reading the posts from the standpoint of trying to understand the other point of view. Try to figure the meaning of the words to the person that wrote them. Try starting with this phrase from my post; "Who people choose to associate with (because they are comfortable, or feel safer, etc.)has no bearing on what is right or wrong in the world. The simple fact of the matter is that people who are what they are by the grace of God, are discriminated against for something (like sexual orientation)in which they by and large had no choice in the matter. In my mind that is inherently evil, which means that I must use my ability as a bard to sing out against it." If after you have done that, then you respond, no problem. Because any reasoned interpretation of that phrase would have come to the conclusion that I am striking out at the injustice, as opposed to taking a position on the issues of community. It is no more than you asked me to do in my response to Sapper. And by the way, I have never performed at a hold hands and sing songs party. I have never been the guest of honor at a wine and cheese party in support of gay rights. I generally perform to the wider populace, as I don't care much for preaching to the choir. I would rather challenge those who, in my humble opinion, need their perceptions and logic challenged. But if asked, I would certainly be happy to contribute in any way I could in order to further the cause of basic human rights. And I still feel this is a very important thread. I love the references to the double meanings in lyrics. And the philosophical differences help our community to grow. Katlaughing, quit moping around and get your arse back in the fray. This is a positive thread and all who read it are enriched by it. I have read the posts of Don M. and others and I have more respect now for the power of this place than I did before. The fact that we can have this conversation is testament to the open-minded attributes of our town. Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jun 99 - 04:14 PM Mick Why do you insist on taking things personally when they are not intended that way? Rose. I do not see that you are having any trouble at all in understanding my views. The first para of your post is exactly what I am trying to say. As to what my idea of the 'gay community' is, I suppose the 'gay scene' would be more the concept I have trouble with................Whatever you wish to call it, the main point is that it excludes participation from anyone who is not gay. I understand the point made earlier, that from your point of view society does exclude you. I don't understand that given that you have felt that the effects of that exclusion, that you should feel that those same problems will not occur when it is you that is (consciously)doing the excluding. How can you think that anything positive be created from this position? I don't see you as ONLY gay, like Don, I probably wouldn't see you as gay at all. Your sexual preferences are none of my business, no more than my sexual preferences are any of yours. It is your preoccupation with this one issue that you have presented to me as a difference between us, when there will be many. As many differences as there would be in any collection of gay people. I am not going to respond as to my views on 'hate crimes'. I have said nothing here for you to present that to me, as if I would support such things. If you do a forum search on my name you will hopefully see evidence for my views. Rose said "I think there's something about this issue that personally threatens you in some way. I'm not calling you the "resident homophobe". I'm reading your comments and I question why you are unsupportive of gay people gathering together. I don't understand why you are uncomfortable with gay people supporting each other." Why must there be a hidden agenda if someone questions the wisdom of your direction? Is there only 'the party line'? I am not unsupportive of gay people supporting each other, but why cannot all of us support gay people? It is this issue of exclusion that you do not seem to see cuts both ways. And also "You accuse a vague someone of "attracting young people to the gay community" when they would be perfectly welcome in a larger community." I have had personal experience of a young person struggling with their identity, being presented with and readily accepting a label and a life-style, that later in life she came to realise did not fit her at all. I came to wonder in this instance, who's needs were being satisfied by this offer? Yes, in this case it was a recruiting drive. This offer and subsequent rejections were made by this person to a number of 'lost souls' over a period of time. As to the answer to my question, despite what you answered, it was to No 2 that the rest of your post was supporting. If you are serious about obtaining acceptance in the long term, maybe you have to be prepared to feel a littleless safe, in the short term? You appear to want to be seen forever as a special case that needs supporting by the very people you continue to blame for all of your problems and want to exclude from your community. Yes there are people who would do you harm, but they are in an increasing minority. The majority of the people and (generally) the laws are on your side. I have just come to question if simple acceptance by society is actually what you want? That is not the view through rose coloured spectacles, but the way it is. If you think my view is critical, then so be it, but believe it or not, it is meant to be helpful. I AM on your side, please reserve your sarcasm and scorn for those who clearly are not. Please don't take issue with me just because I don't agree with everthing you hold dear. Let us try to look at where we do dissagree and learn from that. HELP |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Peter T. Date: 07 Jun 99 - 04:16 PM Let us not forget the greatest songs in the language from the man himself, Shakespeare, who was obviously, screamingly bisexual, as was Byron ("So we'll go no more a roving", among the great songs in the language). Anyone who reads Shakespeare's sonnets and thinks that it is all about straight romance or some kind of convention is just dreaming. Yours, Peter T. (Put that in your Francis Bacon and smoke it!) |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Jun 99 - 07:52 PM I resent that Peter T! E. DeVere, Earl of Oxford. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Bulldog Date: 07 Jun 99 - 08:18 PM I would like to see an end to the politics of sex. Personally I do not like giving "Special Rights" to Gays. In Canada we have new Hate Laws that discriminate in favour of Gays- Violence against anyone should carry the same penalty without exception; however, in Canada you will receive a harsher sentance if the object of your violence was Gay. Why? Spousal Rights? why not make "spouse" into Beneficiary Change one word and you eliminate all discrimination. Strange world we live in! KD Lang got Roy Orbison back into singing by doing a duet Crying. I like that. Her sexual orientation is of no interest to me. I have worked with all kinds of people. The best of them never made me uncomfortable with their preferences; many of them you just wouldnt know for sure. Back to the closet and live in peace say I. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Jun 99 - 09:10 PM Sorry, Bulldog, but THAT bloody-effing closet didn't hold any peace for the people who were in it!
I doubt this will change your mind about bias crimes, but others may find this interesting:
"When Hate Came to Wyoming"
Published in the Liberal Opinion Week
He could have been my brother, who is gay. He was someone's son, brother, nephew, friend. Matthew Shepard is dead; beaten brutally because he was gay. Police in Laramie, Wyoming are claiming robbery as the primary motive, not prejudice. All of his friends and those of us who've been in the trenches, trying for years to get the Wyoming legislature to pass a bias crimes bill, have no doubt his murder was a result of hatred for a class of people whom a good share of our society holds in contempt.
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: DonMeixner Date: 07 Jun 99 - 10:03 PM I believe that my posts must have been poorly written by me because I feel that they have been some what miss understood. I will try to be direct. 1. I am not a homophobe nor am I uncomfortable with homosexual people, bi sexual people, or heterosexual. I am quite comfortable with most people. Those that I have big issues with are bigots, intolerants, and people who won't listen. 2. I don't see people as gay or not gay. I see people as people as people. I realize that some of the people I see are likely too be gay just as some are likely to be Irish or Canadian. 3. I agree that this is an important thread. We can't ignore or secondrate an entire group of people. 4. My opinion is only an opinion. It is made of careful consideration and understanding of facts and situations as I know them to be. Other people can have the same facts and understandings before them and develop a diferent thought. That doesn't make them bad, just difering in opinion. I hope that I have been clear. Regards Don. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 99 - 10:44 PM Shambles (and all) This will be my last post on the issue of how I take things, however I will remain a part of the discussion of this important subject and its musical statements. Shambles, you continue to put forth the same idea a lot of different ways, and when people don't agree with you exactly you try to dress it different. Now I will try a last time to point out where the rub comes. First off, I never accused you of being anything close to a homophobe. In fact, the following statement was one of the first things I made in my post: I am not bothered by Shambles acceptance of person's sexual orientation, I accept him at his word that he does not make his decisions about people on that basis. If you find that to be an some sort of veiled denigration of you, then you have a conspiratorial bent that I canna do anything about. As far as my "taking things personally" I would regard the following comment as condescending at the least, and at its worst an attempt to belittle my method of speaking out as lacking in depth, as if yours was the great truth and the rest of us "just don't get it" It is the same tactic I have seen used by those in power against those that struggle for positive change/intellectual growth for my whole career. Read your comment again, here it is: Or is it one where you continue to be recognised as a special case, have Mick sing songs for you and wine, dine and dance surrounded only by other gay people? You see Shambles, it is easy, and the tactic of the demagogue, to say we are all equal, because I don't "see people" in any way as other people. Say what you want,but it just ain't so. The cases of ongoing racism, sexism, and homophobia in the larger population prove this. And laws that prohibit discrimination against people on the basis of sexual orientation, don't give special status to gays. That is unless it is your intent to discriminate against these people. It simply holds the bigot legally liable for their actions. Don M.I thought your comments were easily understood and right on the mark. All the best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Rosebrook Date: 07 Jun 99 - 11:26 PM This thread has been an unusual experience for me - first of all, that I contributed in the musical discussion! Although I have been a regular visitor here since 9/97, I don't have much expertise to add to a musical conversation. Secondly, that I contributed more than one time! But also that I felt comfortable and welcome to share personal information about myself. Historically, Mudcat has been that kind of place to me. Bulldog, you said you are against "special rights" for gays and cited the penalties for hate crimes as exceeding those of other violent crimes. You also asked why this was the case. I, too, am against special rights for any certain group of people. However, I don't see sentencing guidelines for hate crimes as a special right. When a person commits a violent act against another person, it's a horrific offense against that individual. When a person commits a violent act against another individual based on her/his actual or perceived sexual orientation, it is more than a horrific act against that victimized individual. It is a message to *every* gay person that they could be the next target. It is a horrific act against a group of people, because the targeted person could be any person in that group! A hate crime is not only an individual criminal transgression, it is a crime with the purpose of instilling fear into many. What makes my partner and myself any different than the two women who were murdered less than 100 miles from my town? It could have been us. A crime against someone *because* of their race, orientation, nation of origin, etc. is a crime against every member of that nationality, or race, or orientation. Regarding your recommendation to change the word spousal to beneficiary, I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. Regarding your comment "The best of them never made me uncomfortable with their preferences; many of them you just wouldnt know for sure. Back to the closet and live in peace say I." This is a real "shut up" message and I take offense with this. As I stated earlier, the Mudcat is one community in which I have felt welcome to be myself. You may feel more comfortable with the silence of an entire group of people. For those people, closets are not comfortable places to be. Rose
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Jun 99 - 11:38 PM Don, your words were quite clear and I do not consider you to be any type of homophobe etc. What made me a little sad is that several of the people on this thread don't seem to understand that having a "voice", i.e. female vocalist ala Holly Near, etc., is so important to any group which has been subjugated in society as a whole; any group that has felt silenced for so long. Also, just as a simple matter of marketing, it is much easier to sell things when they are categorised. Imagine if one had to go to the store to buy a size ten dress and one had to dig through all of the dresses to find that size? Bulldog has sent me a message in which he said things seemed to be a lot less violent when people kept their sexual preferences to themselves. I would like to answer him here in this thread. It may seem that there was less violence then, but I believe it is just because people were not comforatble enough or encouraged to report the violence...it was also in the closet. Women have always suffered from sexual violence and were either discouraged from reporting it or so humiliated by the process that they just didn't; now, after a lot of education, protests, demands, and enlightenment, society sees rape as a serious crime that no woman should have to suffer nor be condemned for. The same should hold true for crimes against gays/lesbians/bisexuals. Going back in the closet, NOT being out in the mainstream as themselves, will NOT decrease the violence towards lesbigay people; it would only put them back in the status of second class citizens unable to live their lives to the fullest as any other person should be able to do without harm to others. I feel the only real way to combat any kind of violence is through education and discussion. Lion: I am sorry I didn't answer your posting earlier. It made me smile and you're right...wimmin rule! I feel a little facetious in that for the past twenty years I have lived the life of a married bisexual with children. I have not suffered much at all from this status, either way. But, I have participated and rallied with and for my lesbian/gay sisters and brothers and experienced firsthand some of the violence and oppression they live with on a daily basis. Thank you for your kind words and yours, too MICK! Don, I wasn't trying to permanently categorise any of the songs, just showing my ignorance and wanting to learn a little more. Calling something Irish or Gospel or Blues doesn't, in my mind, permanently banish any of those genres to some narrow island of pc musicland.:-) Finally, it is typical of the patriarchal age, which began its exit when the Age of Aquarius came upon us in the sixties, to be upset and thrash about when the 2,000 yr old status quo is upset by rabblerousers. When I can rise above the sadness and anger, the judgementalness and obstinance, I remember that it is not comfortable for anyone to see things change so over the years, and I remember to try to empathise with those who may feel attacked or threatened by those who aren't going back into the closet, ever again. Humankind is supposed to be on a spiral of consciousness, growing upward into enlightenment of whatever belief system you adhere to or not. It is my belief that by challenging the "old ways", as women and others of a minority status have done, we are helping to open minds and hearts towards an all-inclusive society which truly is evolved. Now, I am going to go find all of the songs you've all mentioned so that I know what you're all talking about! katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Folksie Lady Date: 08 Jun 99 - 03:55 AM Ah, such an education this has been. Wonderful editorial, Kat! Just a brief post here. Another singer who has written a profound song about "different" orientation is Catie Curtis. Her song, "Radical" could really be about any race/class distinctions, but it is about bringing home a lesbian lover to one's parents. It's on her album, "Truth from Lies." Folksie |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 08 Jun 99 - 09:07 AM I have and will reply to Mick personally, But I would like to apologise here for any impression of condescension I may have given to Mick's or to anyone's' views. The two questions I posed were not in hindsight the clearest way I could have asked them. Mick has taken it to mean that I was critical of him singing to the converted in cheese and wine parties and that was not the intention. Having read it again I can see how that impression can be arrived at. I did not respond to Mick's initial posting because they was nothing in it that I disagreed with or anything that I could add. I took no offence at anything that was said there and nothing I said subsequently was any attempt to belittle Mick's or anyone else's views. I am not going to try to say it again, for clarification, for I will then be accused of dressing it up in order to get someone to agree. It is not important to me that people agree with my views, it is just important that they are put in a way that those views can be understood. I will continue to come back and try to explain them better if I think they have not been understood (for I accept that the fault will mainly be mine), or if I am asked a question pertaining to those views. I apologise to those who find that tiresome. Is there not a strange dynamic going on here though? For when Don does the same thing and for the same reasons, it would appear not to be considered tiresome? I do accept however, that his posts are more to the point and less long-winded. I will strive to improve. My views are not 'set in stone' and will change the more I focus on the issue and in response to the other views posted here. Is not this exchange of views the very purpose of this place |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Big Mick Date: 08 Jun 99 - 09:17 AM Shambles, You are a gentleman. I know how hard that is because I have had to do it myself since coming here. You and I express our opinions freely and from time to time it is misunderstood or we get out front to far. I too, have reread your threads, and while we have areas of disagreement, you have been honest in your views. The biggest problem in a forum is expressing and understanding the context in which we "say" things. Let's put this behind us and move on. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: KingBrilliant Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:26 AM Referring back to Mick's comment "It is not good enough to recognize evil, avoid it, and not practice it. You insure it's spread when you do. " I think that there are people who are good at crusading, and are happy with that role, but there are those who are better at just quietly getting on with accepting people as they are at a personal level. I think both are important, and when we have enough of both types then we are getting there. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Peter T. Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:57 AM E. de Vere, you rotten swine! (removes false beard, revealing false chin) Yours from his second best bed, Will "Bluebottle" Shakespeare P.S. Kit Marlowe sends his love too. (eat your heart out, Gwyneth). |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jun 99 - 12:29 PM And, frankly, Bacon fries them ALL! On the serious side: I am contantly reminded of the Native American saying, and I paraphrase, "walk a mile in the shoes of those who oppose you or in the shoes of the oppressed". I am not sure that most of the majority, i.e. straight, white males will ever fully understand what it is we are trying to say. I do not mean that as an offense, just an observation, just as I am sure the early white settlers of America had no idea of what it was like to be a Native and live off of the land without a mindset of ownership and invasion. Many make very valid and valiant attempts to understand and accept; others just don't get it. There are exercises which we use in our human rights org. to illustrate what it is like to be part of a minority. These are done lightly, though, as people usually feel so much emotion when they go through such processes that they need a good solid "debriefing" and comfort afterwards. As usual, I've come back to the conclusion that there are no black and white answers; lots, and lots of gray areas. I do agree with KingB/Kris in that we need both the soapboxers and the ones who quietly go about accepting and getting along. Thanks to everyone who has posted. As ever, in true Mudcat tradition, it's been lively, impassioned, and hopefully enlightening for us all. Minds are like parachutes...they only function when open. katlaughing
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 08 Jun 99 - 02:15 PM My experience with minority groups on a professional level has mainly been with people with disabilities. They do not want to be treated as a special case and live separately from everyone else. The best thing you can do for them is just to treat them exactly the same as you would anyone else.
There is hope though. It was not too long ago that this group were generally mocked, ridiculed and worse. Put on display at freak shows to be laughed at. There is still a long way to go for this group, but is it too unrealistic to think that, in time gay people could be generally accepted in this way? |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: tina Date: 08 Jun 99 - 03:21 PM Nope. It doesn't appear so. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 08 Jun 99 - 03:26 PM Songs anyone? After the Republican convention 8 years ago, I borrowed a quotation from a German theologian (Martin Neimoller I believe) and wrote this song. They came for the witches and I was not one. I was not one. I was not one. They came for the witches and I was not one, And since I was not one, I said nothing. They came for the Communists and I was not one. (etc.) They came for the blacks and I was not one, (etc.) They came for the gays and I was not one, (etc.) (change of tune) And then they came for me, oh yes, they came for me. And when they came for me there was no one left to speak. Also, Loudon Wainwright III has a song about falling in love with a lesbian. Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jun 99 - 03:36 PM Sexist? No. Merely an observation that because of physiological differences, certain others will never understand what it is like to be other than what they are...goes both ways. As a woman, I will never understand, fully, what it is like to be a white, male, hetero. Has this become a mountain out of a molehill? Yes? All I wanted was information on some songs. Would have been just as specific if I'd been looking for any other kind and I'll bet it wouldn't have received the attention this one has. kat |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 08 Jun 99 - 04:42 PM Kat I give in, you make the rules and you change them as and when you will. I do fear however that if I had suggested that you could not fully understand something due to your race and sex, you may have suggested that I was racist and sexist? |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Jeri Date: 08 Jun 99 - 04:47 PM My favorite political song "Song of Choice" by Peggy Seeger. Lyrics Here http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/songs/texts/songchoi.htm It sounds as though it's based on the quote Roger made into a song. No, I don't think everyone has to be a crusader for every worthy cause. Crusaders inspire change. The people who keep to themselves, yet quietly live their beliefs, make change possible. Kat, I agree about the mountain/molehill thing. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: emily rain Date: 08 Jun 99 - 04:58 PM me too. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Bulldog Date: 08 Jun 99 - 06:55 PM Regrefully my message appears to be misinterpreted. What I said to Katlaughing was, That punishment should fit the crime, but the crime should not be special exceptions. The example I gave was not mentioned, but has happened. I do not intend to relegate people to second class status, merely that they are not deserving SPECIAL status. Since I am removed from the list of members for voicing contrary opinion I shall leave and not trouble you people again. It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face in marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Teddy Roosevelt |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jun 99 - 09:27 PM Bulldog, who removed you from the list? What list? The Mudcat is ABOUT contrary opinions! And, esp. if you are the Dave who wrote the wonderful story about Catspaw, stick aoround and share some more with us. Shambles: I just said I could never fully understand what it is to be white, male and hetero because I am a woman. I do not consider that a racist or sexist remark...it is a physiological fact. Roger, thanks for sharing your great song. Jeri thanks for the URL and thanks to you, too, emily. How about we shake this mountain back down to size and get on with the music? kat, assertive, opinionated, and vocal |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Big Mick Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:21 PM Bulldog, If you have been removed from the list for voicing a contrary opinion, then I want to be removed from the same list. I just don't believe that is true. But I am serious, if anyone, gets removed for engaging in intellectual debate from our town, then I want to be on the wagon out of town with them. Even...........no, especially, if I disagree with them. You and I disagree on the premise of conferring special status. I believe that laws which simply guarantee that people won't be denied basic civil and human rights that the majority get by virtue of their majority are strengthening all of our rights, not weakening anyones. That is simply a disagreement. Please do not leave us. We will all be diminished, and so will our community, if you do. And I think that we all understand each others position on the issues. So I am making a personal request. Could we leave the rancor behind now. We have all made our points as well as they can be made. I am very interested in the various types of music with regard to the topic at hand. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: DonMeixner Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:33 PM Jesus Kat this thread is almost as much fun for me as The Corries thread I started a month ago. There are so many people in this group I'd like to meet and swap a tune with. I am amazed at how many times I've been footnoted in the text of this thread. I think your's and Roses comments are the defining words for your thesis here. Well stated and defended. Count me on yourside in the playground. I will paraphraze the great Si Kahn's words : "I'll never be out in front but I'll always be right behind". Don |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: harpgirl Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:35 PM ...Sappho wrote many hymns, lyric (Sapphic meter) poetry, and marriage songs...in paris in the twenties on the rue jacob Natalie Clifford Barney held her salons and Renee Vivien's poetry was set to music and dance....women have always written lyrical love poetry and song to one another, I think Gertrude Stein's poem Sacred Emily was one of many to Gertrude which could be sung...of course she would never have done this!and then there is the compulsive confessionism of the twentieth century...harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: harpgirl Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:55 PM Oh I meant Alice Babette!Come to think of it, I believe there were many lyrics in Four Saints in Three Acts ( her libretto) which were lifted from Gertrude's poems to Alice and their sex life! |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Jun 99 - 11:30 PM Thanks, Don, so much. You and I are going to have to talk jewelry design, one of these days; that is your other occupation, right? Me, too, only not in metalsmithing. I like your quote and appreciate your opinion. Mick, you are right, of course, but this time, I just didn't feel like being a "good little woman" and shut up. (Not that I felt that onus from you!) When it comes to a subject, the civil rights of so many, I feel so strongly about, esp. when misunderstood, my claws come out! Harpgirl, I did know a little about Gertrude and Alice B. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Rosebrook Date: 09 Jun 99 - 01:06 AM Getting back to the music... I would recommend anything by Ferron. Also check out a holiday CD put out a couple of years back by Venus Envy entitled, "I'll Be a Homo for Christmas". It's fairly hysterical. I like Phranc. (But then again, I'm such a sucker for a lesbian version of "Mrs. Brown You've Got a Lovely Daughter.") She's just a fantastic Jewish lesbian folksinger. Speaking of Phranc's cover of the Herman's Hermit's hit, I have had a dream to form an all-dyke band and in performing, change the lyrics of popular oldies to our point of view. (For example, in the Mrs. Brown song the bridge would go, "Walking about, even in a crowd, well, you'd pick her out. Make a dyke feel, so proud." I would really want to do "Sweet Pea". (You know, "Oh Sweet Pea, won't you dance with me...") I'm glad we're back on the music track. Rose |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 Jun 99 - 01:18 AM I'm still reeling over the description of William Shakespeare as a screaming bi-sexual. Now I know old Will wasn't exactly a lumberjack, and I can deal with him being a run-of-the-mill Elizabethan Lothario working both sides of the fence while cranking out the greatest writing of all time, but a Screaming bisexual? Say it ain't so! Regarding hate crimes legislation, I think there is a reasonable middle ground. Assault, harassment, blackmail etc. would be reasonable areas where sexual-orientation should be considered in the trial and sentencing of a crime, but I believe that the ultimate crime of murder is the most heinous act that can be committed by an individual, and I don't think that calling it a "hate crime" makes it a more grievous act. The facts in each case should be considered just as they are now, where mitigating factors or exceptional viciousness are considered in the severity of sentencing. A hypothetical scenario: A straight man and a gay man are involved in a barroom brawl, in which the gay man is struck with a beer bottle and dies of his injuries. In traditional law this would be a fairly obvious case of manslaughter- might there not exist the possibility that, with the emplacement of Hate Crimes Legislation, pressure might be exerted publicly and legally to try and convict for murder and civil rights abridgement? LEJ |
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Subject: RE: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? From: The Shambles Date: 09 Jun 99 - 02:29 AM Kat I have read Dons post and coments about your and Roses's thesis. I have been trying in this thread to find out EXACTLY what that thesis is. I think it would be better if you took the courage of your convictions and started a thread for that, rather than one where you could return to the cover of the pretence that this thread was ever entirely about songs, every time the subject matter theatens to slip from your control. I do geniunely what to understand but here the songs are getting in the way. |
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