BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden

Subject: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

That's the latest buzz.

Seems to good to be true though.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM

Can't we wait until they actually announce?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM

If McCain is foolish enough to pick Lieberman, I don't even know anybody who would vote for him.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:23 AM

Sure we can wait.
We can speculate
while we wait
Wouldn't that be great?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:28 AM

Most Republicans respect Joe Lieberman to some extent based on his patriotism, anti-porn, pro-defence and pro-Israel positions. They also recognize him as a blithering idiot with no executive skills whatesoever. He never worked n the private sector (read: real world) at all. Like "Worthless Willie" Clinton, he went directly into politics (read: the art of twisting the truth). McCain is not stupid. It ain't gonna be Lieberman.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:44 AM

And it ain't gonna be Biden. He's too much of a bigmouth -- can't keep it shut. Don't get me wrong; I admire his outspokenness, but it's not a good trait to bring to the Vice Presidency (and possible Presidency). Not good for international diplomacy.

I read an article yesterday where Biden told reporters that it ain't gonna be him. Sounds like either he's not interested, or he's aware that being on Obama's short list means an honorable mention (or at best an obscure cabinet post that doesn't require diplomatic skills).

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 10:59 AM

McCain-Lieberman has got to be a not starter. Lieberman will not get McCain any appreciable votes...a few liberal hawks if any there be, a few Jewish votes...maybe. His addition to the ticket will alienate hard right voters, so at best it's a wash for McCain.

I don't know what Lieberman's long-term political goals are, or if he has any. But he would almost certainly never again be elected to public office again, if he ran for VP on a split ticket--unless, by some miracle, McCain won.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:03 PM

McCain's weakest constituency in the Republican base is right-wing, evangelical Christians. His V-P pick will have to satisfy, or at least not alienate them. So it won't be Lieberman who is Jewish and pro-choice.

Biden? Maybe. I have a feeling, though, that we may be in for a big surprise and that it might be Hillary. She's been very, and uncharacteristically, quiet lately.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

I have this 'feeling' that Obama & his camp are using level 17 diversions to prevent anyone knowing until the moment they are ready.

It really could be a big surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:36 PM

Obama/Lugar???

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM

My best guess: Obama/Clinton.

It will 'heal' the rift in the Democratic Party and that lady does know how to campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: MarkS
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 12:53 PM

Hang on a bit

.............. "He never worked n the private sector (read: real world) at all. Like "Worthless Willie" Clinton, he went directly into politics (read: the art of twisting the truth)."..........

The Democrats saw some value in him when they nominated him to run with Gore. I suspect his nomination may bring some otherwise wavering (read: Still Pissed Off about Hillary) Democrats to the Republican column just out of pique!

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:09 PM

I don't see Biden as being a very good choice. I think it would be too easy for the opposition to do to him what they did to Dukakis.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

"I suspect his nomination may bring some otherwise wavering (read: Still Pissed Off about Hillary) Democrats to the Republican column just out of pique!"

Well, maybe, but it is not clear (to me) whether you mean "people who are mad that Hillary was not nominated" or "people who tired of having Hillary forced down their throats."

I mean this as an honest statement and not a sign of partisan politics: all Republicans and half of all Democrats are so sick of Bill and Hillary Clinton that we'd like to puke.

That is why you have Obama. If Hillary been just another candidate and not "nominee in waiting", many more Democrats would have tried for the nomination. Some much more capable than the small group we saw in the primaries.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

Obama and Chongo (if he'll accept) would be about perfect. I also predict Big John will resurrect the corpse of Big Dick out of gratitude for his POW release.

Sadly (and I can't believe I'm saying this) the Trickster minus his dark side would be preferable to both of them for President. Hell, even with his dark side! After 8 years of the fuckin' shrub, what's a few more wiretaps and individual liberties.........Ain't much left now anyhow!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Amos
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

Oh, Spaw, bite your tongue!!

The reincarnation of Dickie would be a horror, a cheap shriek-film brought to life!! The Vampire In the White House, Return of the Walking Dead President, America Falls to the Zombie or some such thriller title comes to mind.


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Open the Watergates!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 03:15 PM

I just read that Lieberman has been scheduled to speak at the Republican convention.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Amos
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 04:20 PM

White House of Darkside!! Demon-in-Chief!
The Election of the Dead ... ya know I think we're onto something here!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 04:24 PM

One big thing to consider when mulling over possible VP selections for either party is this: If the candidate is a sitting congressman and is elected VP, who's going to replace him? With razor thin Democratic majorities in both houses, neither party is going to want a VP candidate whose seat might be given to the other party by gubernatorial appointment or special election. For example, there's absolutely no possibility that Obama is going to select Bill Nelson of Florida, because Florida's Republican governor, Charlie Crist, would get to appoint a replacement for at least the next two years of Nelson's term. That Joe Biden isn't afflicted by a similar problem (Delaware's governor is a Democrat) is a point in his favor.

On the other hand, McCain/Lieberman makes a lot of sense vis-a-vis any Republican attempt to regain control of the Senate. Though technically an independent, Lieberman is counted as a Democrat. If he were to be elected VP, either Connecticut's Republican governor would get to appoint a Republican replacement or a new senator would be elected in a special election, depending upon the provisions of that state's constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

The strangest thing about the Lieberman possibility is that every time I've heard him mentioned as a possible VP in the next sentence there is this pronouncement that if Leibermen is picked then McCain will promise, if elected, to serve just one term... Waht the heck is that all about??? Ya reckon that McCain thinks that if he has Lieberman as VP the two of them will stink up the loint in so bad in 4 years that no one on earth will want any more of either of them???

This is some purdy stupid thinkin' on McCain's part...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

Yeah, if McCain promises to serve only one term, that's practically the same as admitting that he's unfit to serve two terms. And if he's unfit to serve two terms, people will wonder, is he even fit to serve one? Nah, McCain would be shooting himself in the foot to say that. I think he's too smart for that (or his advisors are).

Not all rumors are true, and not all are false, either. Some of them are "trial balloons" meant to gauge public reaction before something is formally announced and it becomes too late to take it back. If public reaction was bad, they will say "It's just a rumor—no truth to it at all."

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM

Olberman story

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:01 AM

It amazes me that the media is taking seriously the possibility that Lieberman is the Republican pick. Between McCain being 72 years old and Lieberman's 66 years, where's the balance? Even Reagan chose a much younger running mate. When it came his turn, of course, GHW Bush chose a young, vacuous, pretty face which was pretty amazing in itself.

On the news tonight they said that Lieberman could bring some voters into the fold who don't trust McCain.

Obama/Biden would suit me very well. Biden is the same age as Lieberman but he would balance Obama's age and lack of hands-on experience; Biden has been on many a fact-finding and funding committee. He is well traveled and has met many world leaders. And Biden is a known quantity; he is long since vetted. As for being mouthy- we need someone who knows the score and is not afraid to call people on it.

There are others in the Democratic party who would suit me as well, so I won't be too disappointed if Biden doesn't get -and accept - the nod. What I like to dwell on is the likelihood that Obama will surround himself with knowledgeable, capable, even brilliant, people.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 12:20 AM

Another name being floated as McCain's possible running mate is Rep. Eric Cantor of Virginia.

This article appeared in this week's edition of a prominent Orthodox Jewish publucation.




   

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Eric Cantor: He's Young, He's Conservative, He's against Dividing Jerusalem, and John McCain's Considering Him for VP
by Susan Rosenbluth,
Editor, Jewish Voice and Opinion

August 2008

The news that Rep Eric Cantor (R-VA), the House chief deputy minority whip, has been asked for his family, health, and financial documents by the presumptive Republican Presidential candidate, John McCain, with an eye towards vetting him as a possible running mate, has excited not only some in the Jewish community. Many right-wing Evangelicals, sometimes referred to as the Republican core or base, say the Jewish Mr. Cantor may be the only possible running mate Mr. McCain can choose that will get them to the polling stations in November rather than spend Election Day fishing.

"He would energize the Republican base," said another member of the Virginia Congressional delegation, Rep Virgil Goode (R-VA). Like many Republicans, Mr. Goode has advised Mr. McCain to "look right and not left" when he picks a running mate.

Mr. Goode said that by choosing Mr. Cantor, Mr. McCain could staunch the flow of conservatives deciding either to support Libertarian presidential candidate Bob Barr, or not to vote at all.

"We need some enthusiasm with the conservative base," said Mr. Goode.

Hawkish on Israel

A stalwart conservative who happens to be the only Jewish Republican in the House of Representatives, Mr. Cantor, a fourth-term Congressman, represents Virginia's seventh district, a mixture of state capital and western Virginia conservatism.

Reputed on Capitol Hill to be "squeaky clean," he has a nearly 100 percent rating by the National Conservative Union, but is still reported to do well with the more moderate wing of the Republican party as well with Democrats.

His views on Israel and its struggle against Palestinian terror are among the most hawkish in Congress. He has sponsored legislation that would cut off all US taxpayer aid to the PA until they put a halt to unauthorized excavations on the Temple Mount.

Sole Undivided J'lem

He also supports keeping Jerusalem as the sole, undivided capital of Israel. In a recent talk for a program called "One Jerusalem," called as a protest against the Annapolis summit last fall at which the Olmert government indicated its willingness to divide the city, Mr. Cantor characterized Jerusalem as "not merely the capital of Israel, but the spiritual capital of Jews and Christians everywhere."

"It is the site of the First and Second Temples, which housed the Holy of Holies, and it's the direction in which we Jews face when we pray. This glorious City of David is bound to the Jewish people by an undeniable 3,000-year historical link," he said, adding that Jerusalem "is Israel's lifeblood."

"No one understands this better than Israel's enemies. That is precisely why they still engage in a systematic campaign to erase the historical link of the Jews to this great city. For if Israel were severed from Jerusalem, the Jewish state would lose its sense of legitimacy and its will to fight. Only then could Israel be destroyed," he said.

Victim of Terror

When he discusses victims of terror, his sympathy is not just theoretical. In April 2006, his cousin, Daniel Cantor Wultz, a 16-year-old student at the David Posnack Hebrew Day School in Plantation, FL, was the victim of an Islamic Jihad suicide bombing in Tel Aviv.

Daniel was in Israel with his family for Passover. He was hospitalized for almost a month after the bombing, while thousands of Jews throughout the world prayed for him and 46 of his classmates traveled to be at his bedside. He died of his injuries on May 15.

Conservatives say there is no denying that Mr. Cantor's faith and passionate defense of Israel have played a major role in winning their admiration.

Not McCain

In many ways, Mr. Cantor is everything Mr. McCain is not. Those who worry that Mr. McCain, at 72, seems old, especially when compared to 47-year-old Barack Obama, see the good looking Mr. Cantor, who is only 45, as a spark of fresh air.

Those who are concerned because Mr. McCain's record on immigration and free speech during political campaigns (masquerading as campaign reform), have made conservatives wary, say Mr. Cantor's record could make up for a multitude of Mr. McCain's "maverick sins."

On a political website discussing possible Republican candidates for vice president, one blogger summer it up this way: "Cantor is a real conservative who is a star. He is amazing. He would fire me up to have him on the ticket."

Popular Candidate

He has been doing just that in his district in Virginia. In four elections, he has never received less than 64 percent of the vote.

This month, Mr. Cantor received the second-highest number of votes—behind only Mitt Romney—when the National Journal polled three dozen Republican Congressmen and Senators on whom they would like to see as Mr. McCain's running mate.

Last May, when President George Bush spoke in Israel to congratulate the Jewish State on its 60th anniversary, the influential Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention told several members of the American delegation that he would like to see Mr. Cantor as vice-president.

Mr. Land called Mr. Cantor "rock-solid on social issues," which is a huge concern for Christian conservatives, especially with Mr. McCain and his reputation as "maverick" at the top of the ticket.

Terrorism Expert

In addition to Mr. Cantor's leadership responsibilities as deputy whip, the highest appointed position in the House, he has served on the House International Relations Committee and currently holds a seat on the powerful House Ways and Means Committee.

For several years, he has served as chairman of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare. The task force is a coalition of Congressmen and Senators who study the threats posed to the US by international terrorism and develop policy proposals and legislative recommendations regarding the fight against terror.

His experience on the task force has made him one of the strongest voices in Congress on national defense and homeland security. He is recognized as an authority on radical Islam and ways to combat it.

Successful Fundraising

Equally important to many Republican insiders, he also serves as Finance Chairman for the National Republican Congressional Committee, where he leads the effort to raise money for House Republicans in the 2008 election cycle.

It is not surprising that he has been asked to retain this position. In 2006, he was asked to raise $21 million for House Republicans, and, instead, he brought in $30 million, making him the single most productive Republican fundraiser in the House of Representatives.

He has developed powerful connections in key states such as Florida and New Jersey, in addition to his own in Virginia, all of which will be important in November.

For his own re-election this year, he raised more than $100,000 from donors in Florida, another $100,000 from donors in New York, and even $100,000 from Mr. Obama's home state of Illinois.

Reaching Jews

Rep Roy Blunt (R-MO), the House Minority Whip, said he appointed Mr. Cantor his deputy in 2003 (the same post Dennis Hastert held before becoming Speaker in 1999), because he was so impressed with Mr. Cantor's ability to reach out to the Jewish community.

"He's worked hard around the country to try to build bridges and support among the Jewish community, and he did that very effectively. As the only member of the House leadership—Republican or Democrat—who's Jewish, it gives him substantial credibility to help reach out in that direction," he said.

Mr. Cantor knows that, as a Conservative Republican, he supports domestic policies that many Jews, almost instinctively, shy away from. However, he said in a recent interview, "I think that when it comes to Israel, all that gets set aside."

Go-To Person

His positions on Israel and experience on the Task Force on Terrorism have made him a go-to person for many of his colleagues. His ability to think quickly on his feet has made him a passionate and articulate advocate for Israel in the media and at parlor meetings.

This is no small matter. Mr. McCain needs a ferocious fundraiser to make up for his own weak performance in this area. According to all reports, Mr. Obama has raised more than three times the amount accumulated by Mr. McCain.

A website which says it was established by grassroots supporters of Mr. Cantor, www.ericcantorforvp.com, says Mr. McCain needs Mr. Cantor because "Conservatives have not had a candidate to rally around."

That, the site says, will change if Mr. McCain selects Mr. Cantor as his running mate. "He is pro-life, pro-family, pro-free market, pro-military, dynamic, and young," says the site. "Eric Cantor will provide a dynamism that does not exist in the Republican campaign."

Smart and Savvy

His supporters say he is also very smart, very articulate, and politically savvy. In 1982, while an undergraduate at George Washington University, he interned for Rep Tom Bliley (R-VA) on his first re-election campaign, working his way from driver to, eventually, campaign manager. Mr. Cantor received his law degree from The College of William and Mary, and then earned as Master's degree in real estate development at Columbia in New York.

While at Columbia, he met his wife, the former Diana Fine, a Democrat originally from Miami Beach who was working at Goldman Sachs and had been living in Greenwich Village for ten years.

When she and Mr. Cantor moved back to Virginia, where he resumed working in father's business, she said she experienced it as "culture shock."

She became a Republican and, in 1996, was appointed by Virginia Gov George Allen to run the Virginia College Savings Plan.

Kosher Home

As a potential Second Family, the Cantors are extremely photogenic. They have three children, Evan, Jenna, and Michael, and maintain a traditional Jewish, kosher home.

Reached at a birthday party for his son, Mr. Cantor addressed the issue of his possible selection by discussing how his children felt about it: "Cool that my name is even there."

It was undoubtedly a kosher party. In recent years, Mr. Cantor made the decision to adhere to the dietary laws outside his home, too. He said that sometimes makes things difficult for him, but, he said, he would rather go hungry than ask for special arrangements.

"I just make do," he said, admitting that, for him, "religion is a very private thing."

He is on the board of and helped secure state funding for the Virginia Holocaust Museum and, over the years, has participated in the annual campaign to raise millions of dollars for the local Jewish Federation.

Lower East Side

Like so many Jewish immigrants to the US, Mr. Cantor's paternal grandparents settled in New York when they first arrived from Eastern Europe. His great uncle was the first to relocate to Richmond, opting for an opportunity to work in the restaurant fixture business.

Mr. Cantor's grandfather followed, but he died when Mr. Cantor's father was just two years old. To make ends meet, his grandmother ran Cantor's Grocery, and, for a time, she and her two sons lived above the store.

Mr. Cantor's father went to law school, and, eventually, started a business developing real estate and building shopping centers.

He also became active in local Republican politics. In 1984, he was a key supporter of the Reagan-Bush Ticket, and Eric Cantor became involved in the campaign before he was old enough to vote.

First Jewish VP

Some observers argue that Mr. McCain, who is projected to do well in the Jewish community—garnering perhaps as much as Ronald Reagan's 40 percent—does not need a Jewish running mate to capture the Jewish vote.

Others say with Mr. Cantor on the ticket, Mr. McCain could "seal the deal" on bringing Jews who had supported Hillary Clinton into the Republican's corner.

If selected, Mr. Cantor would be the first Jewish Republican vice-presidential candidate. In 2000, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, then a Democrat and now an Independent, was the first Jewish vice-presidential candidate of any party. Mr. Lieberman is campaigning heavily for Mr. McCain this year, which means if Mr. Cantor is selected, Mr. McCain would be supported simultaneously by both Jews who ran for the post.

Many analysts believe Mr. Lieberman's presence helped the Democratic ticket headed by Al Gore get within a hairsbreadth of victory in Florida. This year, the analysts say, campaigning in Florida by both Messrs Lieberman and Cantor for a McCain-Cantor ticket could give the Republicans a powerful advantage in the fall.

In addition, Mr. Cantor stands a good chance of being able to deliver his home state of Virginia. That could be important because Mr. Obama is rumored to be seriously considering Virginia Gov Tim Kaine as his running mate.

Polls

In any case, there seems to be no question that Mr. McCain's numbers in the polls are rising and Mr. Obama's are sinking, at least for now. Most general polls show the two candidates in pretty much of a statistical dead heat.

It's different in the Jewish community, where Mr. Obama is far ahead of his opponent.

But to be successful, Mr. McCain does not need a majority of Jews, which is probably unattainable. Last month, polls released by Gallop and the far-left J Street, that hopes to be the left-wing alternative to AIPAC, showed Mr. McCain winning 29 percent and 32 percent of the Jewish vote.

Mr. Cantor, who is serving as one of the leaders of Mr. McCain's outreach campaign to the Jewish community, said he is hearing "excellent" reactions from Jewish voters.

"The polls are also showing that more than 32 percent of Jewish voters support McCain. We know that, for the Democrats, they never had a President who got less than 70 percent of the Jewish vote," he said.

Voting in Israel

In Israel, where some 250,000 Israelis with American citizenship are eligible to vote by absentee ballot, polls show that Mr. McCain is favored over Mr. Obama as "better for Israel" by a margin of 42 percent to 18 percent. Ten percent said that there was no difference between the two, and 30 percent had no clear opinion on the issue.

The poll, which was conducted by the Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research at Tel Aviv University, showed that Mr. McCain leads among the voters of all Israeli parties, except Meretz, the far-left party which has only five of the 120 MKs.

Israel is America's fifth-largest community abroad, with many of the potential voters hailing from swing states such as Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan.

Close Relations

If Mr. Cantor is selected, pragmatic campaign reasons will not be the only ones. Mr. Cantor's close relationship with Mr. McCain is not a secret.

Last month, Mr. McCain had a private luncheon with Mr. and Mrs. Cantor at the Hampton residence of Revlon mogul Ronald Perelman, a major GOP donor and hefty contributor to Jewish causes. Later that evening, at a mega-dollar fundraiser held for the Republican candidate by Mr. Perelman, Mr. Cantor was one of the few "friends of John" who was not asked to contribute financially to the campaign.

According to a source in the McCain campaign, even if Mr. Cantor is not chosen as the vice presidential candidate, he would always be a close friend with easy access to a McCain White House.

Recognizing Hamas

This could be very important in light of some of Mr. McCain's statements that some pro-Israel activists have found troubling. For example, in a 2006 interview on Sky News with former Clinton State Department official James Rubin, Mr. McCain implied an eventual willingness for the US to engage in talks with the terrorist group, Hamas.

"They're the government. Sooner or later, we are going to have to deal with them, one way or another, and I understand why this administration and previous administrations had such antipathy toward Hamas because of their dedication to violence and the things they not only espouse, but practice. But it's a new reality in the Middle East. I think the lesson is people want security and a decent life and decent future, that they want democracy. Fatah was not giving them that," he said.

The same day, however, Mr. McCain spoke to CNN and made clear that the only way he believed the US could "do business" with Hamas would be if the terrorists renounced terror.

Not Recognizing Hamas

His earlier remarks, however, have come back to haunt Mr. McCain. After a Hamas leader openly endorsed Mr. Obama last May, supporters of the Democratic candidate suggested Mr. McCain had no right to criticize it considering his own quasi-support of the terrorists.

In response, Mr. McCain issued a statement that he has "always believed that serious engagement would require mandatory conditions and Hamas must change itself fundamentally: renounce violence, abandon its goal of eradicating Israel, and accept a two-state solution."

He said his longstanding position is that "the President of the US should not unconditionally meet with leaders of Iran, Hamas, or Hizbollah."

"Barack Obama has made his position equally clear," he said, adding that it "shows incredibly dangerous and weak judgment."

Green Line

It was Mr. McCain's judgment, however, that was called into question when he told a Ha'aretz reporter that, as President, he would send "the smartest guy I know to the Middle East."

Asked who that would be, he responded, "Brent Scowcroft or Jim Baker, though I know you in Israel don't like Baker."

As Secretary of State for the first President Bush, Mr. Baker made clear the feeling was mutual. When Jews, concerned about the Bush administration's failure to deliver promised and desperately needed loan guarantees to Israel, began lobbying pro-Israel supporters in Congress, Mr. Baker crudely told the President to disregard the Jews because "they don't vote for us anyway."

Messrs Baker and Scowcroft are viewed by supporters of the Jewish state as typical of the State Department's anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian Arabists, who demand that Israel withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, relinquishing Judea, Samaria, and the Golan Heights, and dividing Jerusalem.

By praising Messrs Baker and Scowcroft, Mr. McCain seemed to be endorsing an Israeli retreat to the Green Line.

Backtrack

When the interview he had given to Ha'aretz began to make waves, Mr. McCain disavowed the article, saying, "I've never held the position that Israel should return to the 1967 lines, and that is not my position today."

Calling the interview with Ha'aretz "a brief, off-the-cuff conversation," Mr. McCain said he had never discussed "settlement blocs, a total withdrawal, or anything of the sort."

He did not, however, say that his envoy would be someone other than Mr. Baker or Mr. Scowcroft. Supporters of Mr. Cantor hope that his presence on the ticket and, if they are successful, in the White House, would put him in a position to suggest other people to represent Washington in Israel.

Doubletalk in Sderot

In March of this year, during Mr. McCain's trip to Israel, once again, some politically conservative Israelis found the candidate's remarks, this time in Sderot, disturbing and off the mark.

For example, in the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin, Efrat-based journalist David Bedein said Mr. McCain began a press conference in Sderot by describing his shock that entire families, indeed the town's entire population, was living under the constant threat of missile attacks which allowed them only 15 seconds warning in which to take cover.

"That's no way to live," said Mr. McCain, before adding that "Israel should indeed respond to these attacks and continue the peace process."

He said the cycle of "action and reaction" must stop and, therefore, the peace process should not be abandoned.

He said the US administration and Congress were determined to push the peace process forward, and he urged Israel and the Palestinians to do the same.

No Advice

When he was asked how Israel should respond to Arab rocket attacks on Sderot from Gaza, Mr. McCain said he could not "give a good answer." But, he added, "I can tell you that I believe that if rocket attacks came across the border of the United States of America, that the American people would probably demand pretty vigorous actions in response."

Asked about Hamas, he repeated his position. "Someone is going to have to answer me the question of how you are to negotiate with an organization that is dedicated to your extinction," he said.

Nevertheless, Mr. Bedein said, Mr. McCain seemed "miffed" when asked whether, in retrospect, the evacuation of Gaza and giving terrorists land from which to lob missiles had been a good idea. Further, he was asked, given Israel's experience with the retreat from Gaza, would he, as President, advocate further withdrawals from Judea, Samaria, or the Golan Heights.

"These are issues to be worked out between Israelis and Palestinians," said Mr. McCain, adding that he supported President Bush's vision of a Palestinian state.

Who's a Moderate

Mr. McCain said he believed Fatah represents a "moderate" entity with which Israel can negotiate. He then praised PA leader Mahmoud Abbas as a "moderate who endorses peace and reconciliation."

He said peace could be forged with these "voices of moderation," a view that was seconded by Mr. Lieberman and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-NC), both of whom joined Mr. McCain on this trip to Israel.

All three American Senators had harsh words for Islamist extremists, but despite numerous reports indicating that PA television and other media outlets in the West Bank, which are totally controlled by Mr. Abbas, engage in routine Israel-bashing and praise for terrorists, Messrs McCain, Lieberman, and Graham seemed certain that Hamas and Fatah maintained different policies regarding Israel.

Disappointed

Mr. McCain said he believed Mr. Abbas wanted "to get the peace process started," adding that he was certain the PA leader "does not support the terrorist activity taking place in Gaza."

Mr. Bedein, whose views are politically conservative, said he was disappointed that Mr. McCain, after seeing for himself the destruction caused by the terrorism waged by Hamas against Sderot's civilian population, had not spoken more forcefully about ways to end the siege militarily. He was also chagrined that Mr. McCain could not see "the truth about Abbas and Fatah."

"Neither McCain nor his colleagues indicated that they knew anything about the continuing involvement of the Fatah organization in terror and attempted terror activities," said Mr. Bedein. "McCain's policies sounded like the Oslo process all over again."

Moving the Embassy

Many supporters of Israel believe that with Mr. Cantor on the ticket, Mr. McCain's basically positive view of the Jewish state and her struggle against terrorism, whether from Hamas or Fatah, would undergo a subtle change that the pro-Israel community would welcome.

In June, Mr. McCain told a Miami audience the US embassy in Israel should be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem "before anything else happens."

At the end of July, Mr. McCain made the same promise on CNN, and when news anchor Wolf Blitzer asked, "When?" Mr. McCain said, "Right away. I've been committed to that proposition for years."

Same Old Promise

Some pundits pointed out that when President Bush made the promise in 2000, he hedged, saying he would start the "process" of moving the embassy his first day in office. Mr. McCain did not say anything about a process.

The Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act was introduced in 1995 by then-Sen. Bob Dole, just before he ran for President against Mr. Clinton. The law gave the President a loophole, which was taken first by Mr. Clinton and then by Mr. Bush. Every six months, citing national security concerns, they signed waivers delaying the Congressional mandate to move the embassy.

The difference between Messrs Clinton and Bush and Mr. McCain is that the latter voted for the law.

Dividing Jerusalem

Mr. Obama was not a member of the Senate at the time, and, therefore, could not vote on the measure. But Mr. Obama has been quite clear about his position on Jerusalem: he is in favor of its redivision.

At AIPAC's Washington conference earlier this year, he told the pro-Israel audience, "Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive and that allows them to prosper. But any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."

One day later, claiming the phraseology in his statement was poor, he backtracked, saying Jerusalem was a "final-status issue, which means it has to be negotiated between the two parties," as part of "an agreement that they both can live with."

He said he meant to tell AIPAC that, for him, "undivided" meant no barbed wire through the middle of the city."

Jerusalem and the US

At the Miami event, Mr. McCain said that in his administration, "the subject of Jerusalem will be addressed in negotiations by the Israeli government and people."

He seemed to omit mentioning the Palestinians on purpose.

Mr. Cantor has a different take. At the "One Jerusalem" event, he linked the destinies of Israel and the US.

"What befalls Jerusalem threatens the security of the US and its allies worldwide. That's because Jerusalem and Israel are Ground Zero in the global battle between tyrant and democracy, radicalism and moderation, terrorism and freedom," he said.

Switching to Hebrew, Mr. Cantor quoted Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, who said, "If a land has a soul, then Jerusalem is the soul of the Land of Israel."

Never Again

While Mr. McCain told Mr. Blitzer he would not discuss hypotheticals, such as whether he would support an Israeli attack on Iran, he did make a statement that zeroed in on the fear in Jewish communities concerning the threats made by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"I can tell you this," Mr. McCain said on CNN, "The United States of America is committed to making sure that there is never a second Holocaust. That will be what I do as President of the United States."

Some observers said that sort of speech has endeared Mr. McCain to Mr. Cantor.

Other Possibilities

Other potential running mates for Mr. McCain whose names have been mentioned include Sarah Palin, the mother of five who serves as governor of Alaska where she hunts and is a dog sledder; Hewlett Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, one Mr. McCain's top economic advisers; Minnesota Gov Tim Pawlenty; and Mr. Romney.

Some pundits have suggested Mr. McCain might even ask Mr. Lieberman, but others say Mr. McCain may well ask Mr. Lieberman to serve as Secretary of State.

Former House Speaker, Republican Newt Gingrich, who serves as a Fox News contributor, has publicly warned Mr. McCain not to pick "one more relatively boring normal mainstream Republican white guy."

"This fall, there's going to be a lot of energy surrounding the Obama campaign, and we need to find ways to generate a substantial amount of energy around the McCain campaign, and an effective, dynamic, different kind of vice-presidential nominee, I think, would make a difference," he said.

Time will tell whether that difference will be fulfilled by the only Jewish member of the House.

S.L.R.























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COPYRIGHT © 2003-2007, The Jewish Voice and Opinion, Englewood, NJ 07631.
All Rights Reserved.
ISSN: 1000-3244

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 06:18 AM

.............And on the side he has a short-order restaurant specializing in biscuits with corned beef gravy and a side of grits.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:31 AM

"One big thing to consider when mulling over possible VP selections for either party is this: If the candidate is a sitting congressman and is elected VP, who's going to replace him? With razor thin Democratic majorities in both houses, neither party is going to want a VP candidate whose seat might be given to the other party by gubernatorial appointment or special election. For example, there's absolutely no possibility that Obama is going to select Bill Nelson of Florida, because Florida's Republican governor, Charlie Crist, would get to appoint a replacement for at least the next two years of Nelson's term. That Joe Biden isn't afflicted by a similar problem (Delaware's governor is a Democrat) is a point in his favor.'

Two things:

1. The Democrat majority will not be slim after this election. Estimates of 60% Democrat majorities in both houses are not uncommon nor unrealistic.

2. The VP is still president of the Senate and votes to bread ties there.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 10:49 AM

John, surely that is not deliberate? It is not the Democrat Party.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 11:19 AM

So tell me, Ebbie, are Bayh, Biden, and Obama collectively "Democratics" or are they "Democrats"?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 11:33 AM

IMO, James Carville has some good advice for Obama, regardless of who he chooses for VP. You can read the whole thing HERE. Here's an excerpt:

Obama can connect with voters on the economy by using history as a guideline. He should start by reading "Unequal Democracy," by Princeton academic Larry Bartels. The non-partisan and non-political Bartels points out devastatingly after an exhaustive study of Democratic and Republican presidents that the Democrats built a better economy and a more just society.

The campaign needs to say that, since 1900, Democratic presidents have not only "won" but dominated on every economic front: GDP growth, employment, deficit and income equality. Need more? How about a better performing stock market and a more fiscally-responsible spending.

There's no need to listen to McCain's marginal rates, death tax, deregulation, trickle-down, supply-side shenanigans because historically Democratic presidencies have produced better economies. And with the economy still in the forefront, it seems like a no-brainer for Obama to talk about the historical supremacy of economies under Democratic presidents.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

I think Obama Biden would be a bad combination for the simple reason that when you see the two names together out of the corner of your eye it looks like Osama Bin Laden.

Crass I know, but lets face it, Obamas political Rivals will exploit it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: olddude
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

my money is on a Murdoch/Bankley combo

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 11:52 AM

So, John, are you a Republic?

And yes, I do know the difference between the constructs.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM

What I'm finding hard to believe is that we'll actually have final answers to the running-mate questions soon, one within about a week and the other just another week later.

This campaign has been going on for SO l-o-o-o-n-g that I've become entirely accustomed to thinking about the eventual outcome as being in the far-far distant future. And the VP choices, as well, have been a matter of distant specualtion for an awful long time, so long that it's difficult to readjust to the idea that time has finally (almost) come to finalize them.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM

Ah, yes! The "Democrat/Democratic" squabble!

First I heard of this issue was during TV coverage of the 1968 Republican Convention. Speakers kept referring to the "Democrat Party" and Mr. Cronkite (or one of his ilk) explained that it wasn't accidental. The GOP big dogs had decided at one of their recent pow-wows that "Democrat Party" was to be the "official" nomenclature for the loyal opposition in Republicanspeak.

Forty years, and not much has changed. The Republicans still predictably goad the Democrats by childishly calling their party something other than the name under which it's chartered, and the Democrats respond in an equally predictable and childish manner by getting upset about it.

How much ya wanna bet it's still an "issue" in 2048?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

but I didn't say "Democrat Party". And one does not refer to a person from that party as a "democratic". Not ever. Not in any context.

On the other hand, a single "Republican" is a member of the like-named "Republican Party". In any and every context.

Ebbie was either trying to be funny or she was quite objectively wrong in her picking at my usage.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

I'm neither, John. Surely you would grant that the two words are used differently, almost opposingly?

Republicans belong to a Republic. Democrats honor Democracy.

So there. *g

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 05:24 PM

In some places republicans only aspire to live in a republic.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:45 PM

And in some places Democrats are burned at the stake.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM

And here recently it might very well be another Dem lightin' the match...

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 08:45 PM

GUESS WHO   IS   GOING TO THE DEMOCTRIC CONVENTION !

Mohammed ALI

It is coincidently on the birthday of MLK and muslim holy day of Ramalama dingdong.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Aug 08 - 08:48 PM

CNN reported that a fake email message to Obama supporters said that Kane was VP

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM

Well, I have heard that today, Friday the 22nd, is the day that the Black Messiah slips the press a note telling who the anointed one #2 is going to be. Couldn't he wait until the convention and do this out where the public can see the process? Perhaps even allow the public some input?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

Is there anything that the "Black Messiah" (That rolls nicely off the tongue. *g*) could do that would meet with your approval, pdq?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

I there anything that any Republican can do to get your approval, Ebbie?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:56 PM

I'm guessing if he was White, Republican, and his name was McCain, that would do the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

How can anyone consider Black Messiah an insult unless they have a pathelogical hatred for religion and people of faith?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

Back to the issue at hand, please.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

So, pdq, when you wrote the phrase "Black Messiah," you were not being sarcastic?

Coulda fooled me!

I'm not terribly offended, and even perceive a bit of humor in that usage ~ even though I don't agree with you.

But I have to observe that your critics were merely expressing their opinions of your viewpoint, while your f-word-laden reponses were much more clearly in violation of the "no personal nastiness" principle.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

"...even perceive a bit of humor in that usage ~ even though I don't agree with you." ~ {rated} PG

Thank you for recognizing an attempt at humor. My posts usually have some, but an observer who has no sense of humor will not see that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

Lox, I've noticed the last couple days that your posts have been getting out of hand. Lots of one-line chatroom quips, and lots of insults. This is a discussion forum, not a chat room. Settle down, and discuss.
I deleted your latest series of messages, and those of the individual who responded to you.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

P.S. You only get one warning

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM

On the subject of humor, mine was meant that way, too. But someone who hasn't got a sense of humor won't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

I would like to apologise to Joe Offer for disturbing the forum. I should have been more skillful in combating the insults. I have been here 5 1/2 years and have been on the receiving end of enough trash to be abe to handle it better.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM

Dear Poppagator.

Earlier in this thread you posted as follows:

" ... when you wrote the phrase "Black Messiah," you were not being sarcastic?

Coulda fooled me!

I'm not terribly offended, and even perceive a bit of humor in that usage ~ even though I don't agree with you.

But I have to observe that your critics were merely expressing their opinions of your viewpoint, while your f-word-laden reponses were much more clearly in violation of the "no personal nastiness" principle."


I am grateful for your point of view, but I disagree on one point.

While I am not personally offended by the term "black Messiah" either, I nonetheless view it as deeply insulting, derogatory and inappropriate. And though I might get a joke, and indeed have no difficulty understanding this one, my ability to enjoy it is significantly undermined when I consider that to do so I must ignore the hurt it would cause to good friends of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:26 PM

Peace,

Thought you might enjoy this article on the subject of Obama/Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM

Thanks, Lox.

So, allow me to revise my opinion . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

What determines whether something is an insult is the intention of the person who uses them.

That's why an expression like "do-gooder" counts as an insult, even though ostensibly it should count as a compliment.

It seems to me that "Black Messiah" as used there by pdq was pretty evidently intended as a sneer.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:50 PM

Anyone who enters the political arena had best be prepared for a hefty dose of ridicule, deserved and undeserved. They can expect to be fodder for the equal-opportunity late-night comics who need monolgue material five nights a week, and will take a shot at anyone regardless of their position on the political spectrum. They can also, of course, expect to endure even greater abuse from those with whom they truly differ on issues, basic philosophy, etc.

If an African-American candidiate needs special immunity from this normal nasty give-and-take, school-of-hard-knocks process, then I would suppose that means that the nation is not ready for an African-American candidate ~ which is NOT what I believe.

I think we ARE ready for a President Obama, so I have to assume that Mr (and Mrs!) Obama must be ready for us ~ ALL of us, even political opponents and folks with philosophical and even personal differences, and even people who are simply downright rude. And as for anyone likely to get their own feelings hurt by proxy, well, they simply need to get over themselves.

I absolutely recognize that we are not "colorblind" as a society, but we need to be moving in that direction, and that means that everyone needs to reassess their assumptions. Nobody should get a free pass because of their membership in a "victim" class.

As a constituent of the crooked Congressman William Jefferson and the incompetant Mayor C. Ray Nagin, I can attest to the damage that can result from African-American politicians being protected from criticism and held to a relaxed set of standards.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 05:59 PM

The entire idea of a "Black Masiah" as the McCain PR team has tried to frame Obama as such I find terribly condesending on the McCain teams part... Might of fact, just about everything that the McCain t team has put together is intended to discredit Obama personally...

The problem I have with this isn't as much accepting the reality that negative ads work but that it has been McCain's team that started the campaign down a slippery slope and now Obama's team, or order to not be rolled over with negativity is having to return in kind...

The losers, of course, will be the American people because it is this negativity that fuels partisanship and partisanship is the major reason that the system doesn't work...

And "Black Masiah" could have been the idea that McCain, the so called maverick and straight shooter, could have said, "Not on my watch"... But he didn't and now I think it is too late to bring any level of civility to this campaign or to our government...

Shame on you, John "straight talker" McCain... Shame on you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Hawkwind
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

Heard something on the radio earlier about one of the guys running for vice president. It appears he is a great admirer of Ex-Labour deputy Prime Minister John Prescott and often quotes Prescott in speeches !

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

Poppagator,

In response to your post:

I also believe all politicians are subject to ruthless scrutiny.

In fact I believe that all political opinions are subject to ruthless scrutiny.

Including yours and mine.

And any mudcatter who cares to research will find that in the heat of the moment I have inflicted heavy doses of ridicule on views that I find abhorrent.

The racial aspect of the "black messiah" joke is an essential part of its construct.

It doesn't work without it.

Try saying ... "new messiah" ... hmmm ... not funny ...

I know ... how about ... "liberal messiah" ... nope ... still not funny ...

No aspect of Obamas politics, opinions or actions are scrutinized or lampooned by this joke and neither are the politics, views or actions of his supporters, despite the supposedly subtle suggestion that he is only where he is because people are blinded by his colour.

As for cleverness or originality, this joke has been so often repeated since Obama first began to look like a contender, that its comic value has long since been chewed to death and has lost its flavour ...

The only comic value left, is that provided by its usefulness to taunt and provoke.

The only enjoyment left is for those who enjoy the discomfiture of those whom it insults.

And who does it insult the most? liberals or blacks?

And why? because of their views or because they're black?

The answer is that it insults blacks because they are black.

Stand up comics do indeed make jokes based on race.

But sometimes they get it wrong.

Like Kramer.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

Hawkwind,

Crazy! Prescott into America! This I have to see!

lol

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:43 PM

McCain is a phony war hero. The Vietnam war was a fiasco and it serves very little
to honor those who bombed innocent people there. Lieberman is a dangerous politician
who would start WW III in a heartbeat.

Obama might pick Biden but he might not too. He is the only candidate left to vote for
who won't bring the US to absolute ruin.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM

Stringsinger,

If an article posted on the "war in georgia" thread is correct, McCain is as dangerous a politician as you say liebermann is for the same reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Hawkwind
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 06:59 PM

Lox, there was something on the radio when I was driving home from work this evening about this guy who is running for vice-president and he admired John Prescott and quotes his words a lot.

Ah, not exactly the role model any UK politician would use, the guy was an ignoramus and dockside bar fighter !

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM

Hawkwind,

I'm amazed that anyone would be able to decipher prescotts words clearly enough to quote them at all.

Have you any idea which candidate it was?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:11 PM

John Prescott

'A former ship's steward and trade union activist, he was presented as the political link to the working class in a "New" Labour party led by modernising middle class professionals.
Prescott had overcome the handicap of failing his grammar school entrance Eleven Plus examination, to graduate from Ruskin College in Oxford.
Prescott also developed a reputation as a key conciliator in the often tense relationship between the two other senior figures in government, then chancellor Gordon Brown and former Prime Minister Tony Blair.'

He had a Hull accent too I suppose that also makes him good for a laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM

Well, I don't buy this prevailing McCain spin that "all politcans fo this or that"... That is PR and part of the McCain teams strategy and I will asmit that it does seem to be working... I hear people sayin' all over... Well, Obama is afterall just another polityican... Yeah, the McCain team wants people to think this and say this because then the voter demotes Obama to McCain's level...

I don't buy it because I see right thru it as pure PR bullsh*t on McCain's people's part... Yeah, they know their candidate can't get up to Obama's level so they have top try to bring Obvama down to John McCain's level...

Good politics... Good strategy... Bad for America...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

Emma,

I don't think prescotts accent funny.

My brother lived in hull for nearly ten years and I went there many times to visit him, to play in sessions and to hook up with numerous other people from there that I met on my travels.

I haven't been up for about 10 years now but I have a lot of affection for hull, its folk scene, a girl I had a relationship with there, a young man who committed suicide that I met there and the rugby league side (Hull FC not HKR) who I went to Old Trafford to watch beat Widnes in 1991.

I have found that Prescott gets bogged down in poorly constructed sentences on occasion which in a politician can be unhelpful, hence my response to Hawkwind above.

His televised use of fists against a member of public and his extramarital affair had their day as sources of amusement, but that day has since passed.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:53 PM

In a melee Precott was hit by an egg thrown at him from behind by a protester.

He described the episode as "frightening" and said he wanted to get back to campaigning "without any violence or intimidation".

At the time it was admitted
"He regrets the whole incident ever happened. He felt a blow on the side of his head and reacted instinctively."

A blow thrown in 'self defence' does not make him a 'dockside bar fighter' any more than achieving a degree at Oxford as a 'mature student' makes him an 'ignoramus'

It is far too easy as the Jack Wheeler remarks quoted on another thread demonstrates to discredit politicians of any race, class or gender by thise sort of perjorative descriptions

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 08:11 PM

Emma,

I agree with you. Anyone who might describe him in those terms should be corrected.

And as I am currently a mature student I would take such criticism on those grounds personally.

A great communicator however, john prescott is not.

Hence my initial observation which has now also passed its sell by date.

Are you implying a connection between the issue of Obama that I commented on and the issue of prescott that you have commented on?

And if so are you hoping to expose an inconsistency in my reasoning?

Or are you agreeing that there are boundaries over which it is unacceptable to step?

Would you mind clarifying that point for me?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM

Well I've just seen a news report saying that Obama has made his decision ... he's just not telling us who it is yet.

The suspense is killing me!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:07 PM

Apparently it will be delivered to his supporters by text message.

Nice little campaign gimmick.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM

'Or are you agreeing that there are boundaries over which it is unacceptable to step?'

yes I am Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

Well, when he finally came to his senses after having been pelted with an egg, did he finally come to his senses?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM

NBC tonight said that the class that Joe Biden teaches on Saturdays has been told that they may have a substitute teacher tomorrow.

Woo hee! My fingers are crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:46 PM

Joe Biden is a very divisive person and will be an "in your face" choice. He will not pull any Republicans over to the Democrats' side.

McCain should choose a "uniter" not a "divider".

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM

Obama has pulled quite a few Republicans over to his side all by himself. I've even met and heard about people who have been Republicans their whole lives and who have never voted for anything other than a Republican for president who are enthusiastically backing Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM

pdq, in response to an earlier post, I want to make it clear that I have voted for many a Republican (Why, some of my best friends are Republicans. *BG*). Just not recently.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM

I was rather dissapointed to see Mary Garvey, one of the Mudcatters I respect the most, declare: "I have never voted for a Republican in my life!" A truely open mind would find the "other" party's candidate superior once in fifty years, one might hope.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM

John McCain was speaking truth, the truth of the Republican party when he said rich was more than five million. Those are the only people rich enough to really benefit from the Republican's national policies.

Mary Garvey,

Stay just the way you are. If you had voted republican for Senate, Congress or President, you'd have been voting to take money from your own pocket and put it in the hands of a millionaire. Its takes a special kind of ignorance to do that. the kind of ignorance that most Mudcatters do not have.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:16 AM

Well, I'll be damned. Obama picked Biden. The news came out about a half-hour ago.

WHAT is he thinking????? He passed Hillary over, so he just lost a LOT of support from the Hillary hangers-on AND the female voters. A guy from Delaware isn't going to attract a heck of a lot of votes -- there aren't a heck of a lot of people in Delaware! :-) As a resident of the Pennsylvania-side of the "tri-state area" (with Delaware and New Jersey), I hear Biden's name in the news often, and geeeeezzzz, the man cannot keep his mouth shut. He is going to cause Obama no end of trouble.

...which is not to say that Obama's choice is going to affect MY vote! I voted for Hillary in the primary, but I'll vote for Obama in November as the Cain't-Vote-For-McCain't candidate.

...which makes McCain't the Cain't-didate.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:30 AM

Hillary would have been a lightnin' rod for the right, Shar-roonA and too of the story...

Biden is safe, has real good blue collar support (think the western part of your state here) and will get under McCain's skin...

As for pdq's thinkin' that McCain should pick a "uniter", it way too late for that kind of shift in strategy... MccIan's people have allready decided that their only chance to win is to divide, much the way Bush has done...

Good choice... Okay, not great, but good...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:13 AM

Hillary would have been a lightnin' rod for the right, Shar-roonA

Yeahhhh, you're right...

and too of the story...

Huh?

Biden is safe, has real good blue collar support (think the western part of your state here) and will get under McCain's skin...

It all sounds good.... as long as Biden's big mouth doesn't screw it up.

As for pdq's thinkin' that McCain should pick a "uniter", it way too late for that kind of shift in strategy... MccIan's people have allready decided that their only chance to win is to divide, much the way Bush has done...

Agreed. The idea is to unite to fight against Dubya-McCain't politics.

Good choice... Okay, not great, but good...

Not sure that there WAS a "great" choice. Still wish he would've picked a woman, but as you say Obama needs blue-collar support, and there are a lot of red necks beneath some of those blue collars.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:38 AM

If he wanted a solid citizen with gravitas, foreign policy expertise, and respect of much of the country, I wonder why he didn't pick Nunn. It's obvious why he didn't pick Hillary--and he was dead right on that. Just the two-fer--with Bill--would be enough to disqualify her--and that's not even mentioning her cornucopia of extremely objectionable remarks--including that Obama is not ready to be commander in chief--and of course the "assassination" remark.

After the convention he should send her and Bill back to the same audiences where they bad-mouthed him.   He needs those votes.   And the Democratic movers and shakers can judge by her performance there as to whether she ever deserves another chance at the presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:39 AM

Biden fits in a lot of ways.

I am thinking and hoping that Obama will take advantage of that big mouth to hound McCain.

I'd like to see him make news every day between now and November 4 point out a different McCain mistake, misstatement or bad vote every day.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Hawkwind
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:58 AM

Obama Biden, sounds like a name I heard before !

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM

"After the convention he should send her and Bill back to the same audiences where they bad-mouthed him."


                   I doubt if Oh Bummer will be sending Bill and Hillary anywhere. And if he tried to, why would they go?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

Well...we shall see, hmmm? Biden is unmatched as a foreign policy advisor, and 'seems' to have no serious skeletons in his closet. He has obviously been told to ummmm... 'restrain' his mouth. Can he...for 3 months? I trust him to be competent, but I sure hope some tricky reporter doesn't manage to bait him into an awkward remark.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,guest bankley
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:43 AM

oops .....that was me....in Toronto...

seen some cool graffiti today that went....

"A fool and his money are soon...... elected"

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM

"... I sure hope some tricky reporter doesn't manage to bait him into an awkward remark."

Let's see I we have this straight. If Biden say something wrong, rude or stupid, it's the fault of the person who asked the question. Odd, but that doesn't seem to appy evenly to all candidates, as far as I can tell.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

No, pdq, that is NOT the point. I never said or suggested any such thing! I used the word "awkward" for a reason. It means stuff like McCain not knowing about his houses!
Joe Biden likes to talk, and these days the reporters seem to try to pry at ALL the candidates with questions designed to 'make news', rather than just report news. Obama controls his mouth a bit better than most...Biden, & for that matter, McCain... a bit less.
No doubt that has been 'discussed'.

Now, pdq, if YOU are again just trying to 'inject humor' into a thread, you are again doing it in a heavy-handed manner. Your remark sure seems like either a slam againt ME, or against Biden, or against anyone who would just want to discuss these things from a left-of-center viewpoint. In short, you are doing to my post what I worry about someone doing to a less than carefully phrased Biden remark...twisting the meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

My point was this: are people equally concerned that McCain will be baited into making an awkward remark? The answer on Mudcat is, of course, that they actually hope he will. Double standard or just partisan politics? Don't matter, that's the way it is here.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

I have a bad taste in my metaphorical mouth about Biden. What horrible sin did he commit, and when? Did he plagiarize Kennedy's speech writer? Say he was, or that someone else wasn't, Jack Kennedy? What am I failing to remember about him?

Am I pleased with the choice? Do I care that Biden's Catholic in terms of his electability?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:14 PM

It was Lloyd Bentsen who made the retort about Jack Kennedy to Dan Quayle in a debate.

Catholicism is, in my opinion, no longer an issue with the vast majority of Americans. I don't suppose Jewishness would be either. However, muslimism ... !

The charge was made that Biden plagiarized an article while in law school. Here is a Wiki article:

"Within days, it was also discovered that, while a first year law student at Syracuse Law School, Biden had plagiarized a law review article in a class paper he wrote. Though the then-dean of the law school, as well as Biden's former professor, played down the incident of plagiarism, they did find that Biden drew "chunks of heavy legal prose directly from" the article in question. Biden said the act was inadvertent due to his not knowing the proper rules of citation, and Biden was permitted to retake the course after receiving a grade of F, which was subsequently dropped from his record."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

People who really want to know about this subject can look up "Neal Kinnoch and Joe Biden" on a Google search. I won't cuz I don't giva rat's p'toot about it.

However, as far as rural America, this ticket does not play well at all. A complete rejection of the people who grow the crops, run the ranches, drive the trucks and keep American going. Two mouthy lawyers from the Northeast, both professional politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM

Here is what I don't get... McCain makes it a daily ritual to put hios foot in his mouth... Biden does it only on occasion... Yet the media is willin' to overlook McCain's mis-statements...

I mean, this is a liitle like the uncle who shows up at family events, tells dirty jokes to the kids and everyone says "It's just Uncle Earnie being Uncle Earnie..."

When did America get so dumbed down that we would allow ourselves to vote for a man who's mouth constantly goes in motion long before the brain... And in the case of misidentifying faction in Iraq, had to be pulled aside twice to be told he was mis-speaking...

I don't think we need another 8 years of free-association remarks by out president... Shoot, it might take years for a friggin' ***thoughtful*** man like Obama who knows what ears are for to restore a little respect and integrity to our country...

Grading "on a curve" is fine for high school but not fine for the next president...

The media needs to start telling the truth about what they know about McCain... And soon!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM

If McCain picks Romney, what will you call THAT ticket? Neither one of THEM "... run the ranches, drive the trucks and keep American going."

Two very rich ...blah, blah, blah....

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:55 PM

What the heck... Make it a buck...100...

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

I'll take a successful business man paired with a military man over a pair of mouthy lawyers. So will rural America. That don't mean they will win since cities have all the clout, but this ticket is an affront to much of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

Well, Jack got the Obama/Biden part right. Now McCain needs to carry out his reputation as a maverick, and choose Hillary to be his VP pick.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:14 PM

Here we go again. The Repubs, lacking a candidate of substance, now will do the swift boat approach. McCain spoke of a high minded approach to the campaign, but when he realized the issues and his approach to them would kill him, he hires the Rove Battallion, and waddaya know?...... the swift boat stuff starts. And so it goes.

Why stick with honor and integrity when sleeze and throwing shit works better.

See you in November.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

Congratulations to Ebbie for the following post (note date). Perhaps she should be Mudcat's official augur:


Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08???
From: Ebbie - PM
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:54 PM

It just occurs to me that the best fit for Obama is Joe Biden. Lots of reasons but tops among them is his knowledge and familiarity with foreign policy. Because of the process of presidential campaigning he is already well vetted. Not likely to be many unexamined skeletons in his closet.

{shortened}

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:59 PM

Hillary would have been a bad choice for VP. Among other things, we don't need three presidents in the White House.

But, Hillary fans, fret not! I'll bet a cookie that Obama has her in mind for something big, quite probably a heavy-duty cabinet position.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

See if she takes the nomination to the convention floor....
..Also, new allegations have been renewed, about Obama's birthplace, whether or not he is qualified to run for president...The plot thickens..

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 03:45 PM

Just listened to it. Obama did a great job of introducing Joe Biden. And Joe Biden delivered one helluva speech!

Allegations about Barack Obama's birthplace? Sounds like a bit of desperation on someone's part. Hawaii became a state on August 21st, 1959. Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 4th, 1961.

So what's the problem?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:12 PM

Biden is a lovable Rotweiller and blowhard that will not allow any swiftboat to go unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

Now, if McCain would pick Lieberman, we'd have a 100 percent chance on having a Guy Named Joe as Vice President. I can't believe that in all this time, we haven't had a Guy Named Joe as President or Vice President. I still would have preferred Hillary for President, but an Obama-Biden ticket looks pretty good.

-A Guy Named Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:15 PM

pdq,

You tend to say some dumb things. But are you going for some sort of record today?

Romney, son of a politician made his 200 million as a turn around specialist. Buying "undervalued" companies and "improving the bottom line" through layoffs and raiding the pension funds.

Biden and Obama are an affront because they got law degrees and use them to fight for people?

What about the politician parasite who made his money by lawing hard working people off and the professional politician whose resume, consists of crashing four multimillion dollar airplanes, albeit with help from the enemy in one of those crashes, followed by confinement, heroic confinement, yes, then 35 years of Washington politics married to a beer heiress.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:39 PM

Since when was Illinois part of the Northeast?

Donuel, I hope you are right about Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Fife
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:48 PM

It's strange to see an American politician without his hair dyed, teeth capped and wearing a corset. Why do American politicians smile at amassed groups, point into the crowd and wave as if they spotted someone they know ?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

John McCain crashed 4 planes, Jack??? Geeze, me and my brother crashed a Piper Cub once and that was nuff of that crashin' for me but at the time it was old and beat and it weren't no great loss... But four muti-million dollar planes??? Hey, had I been his CO I wouldn't have given Charlie a shot at him after the 2nd crash... No sir, he woulda been sittin' behind a desk fir the next 32 years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM

Four planes and only one of the crashes wasn't his fault? Sounds like something people ought to know about.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:03 PM

Yeah, four fighter/bomber jets. But give the North Vietnamese and Russian munitions industry credit for one.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM

JtS,

With all due respect, the cartoon characters you are trying to portray as McCain and Romney are evidence that you spend too much time visiting websites designed to stir hatred and foster divisions in the voting people of our country.

George Romney was a very respected business man. He made an heroic effort to build an auto maker that could compete with the Big Three and came close. Even Chrysler is not very competitive anymore, even after they acquired Romney's American Motors (done largely to get the Jeep name). We have a Big Two, located behind Toyota. So Romney had money. That is not a crime, or FDR and JFK would be more guilty than other presidents.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:36 PM

pdq,

With as much respect as I can muster, your ignorance of subjects you choose to talk about is sometimes nothing short of staggering. Mitt Romney's money did not come from his father. It came from his work as a "consultant" and a corporate raider. His 200 million dollar personal fortune came in very large part from engineering layoffs.

As you say, Mitt grew up in an executive's mansion and his father lived in a governor's mansion. Romney, is a second generation politician.

It was you who started out with the characatures. If you are not willing to see the same standards applied to your candidates, you shouldn't have opened that door.

I did not get this information from websites. I got it from interviews with your candidates on conservative main stream media. Interviews with people like Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchanan.

>>I'll take a successful business man paired with a military man over a pair of mouthy lawyers. So will rural America. That don't mean they will win since cities have all the clout, but this ticket is an affront to much of the US.<<

McCain has been in Washington for a lot more time than he has been in the Military. Part of his time in the military was as a "liason" to Washington. By now McCain is 9 parts politician 1 part military man. Romney is a silver spoon fed, classic dyed in the wool, blow dried, elitist, country club, Republican.

If rural America gets to know these two, they won't vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Alice
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 07:56 PM

Allegations... that are total lies... have been spinning from the republican spin machine for decades.


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:12 PM

Thanks for posting that link, Alice!

The ethics of some of the people who put out this kind of anti-Obama propaganda is enough to gag a maggot!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:34 PM

Mudcat is starting to sound like a cross between the Jerry Springer Show and a food fight.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM

Well, it will be two firsts if they win - first non-WASP veep *and* first non WAS (but not P) pres...

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:15 PM

Even if he had been born in Hawaii before it became a state, he would still have been a legal US citizen as are citizens of all US territories.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM

John McCain was born in the Canal Zone (Panama) and Mitt Romney was born in Mexico. Obama was born in Hawaii. So what? Who is keeping this silly topic going?

The personal attacks in the Democratic primary were all from Bill Clinton and his front, Hillary. Questions about Obama's roots came from the Clintons. I hope they go away forever since that is the only way the Democrats can rebuild their image and become a respectable alternative to the Republicans.

McNormal for McPresident. Hope Liddy Dole is VP.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 10:37 PM

Maybe you should do some of your own research, guest. Biden is a mixed bag on pro-choice laws, but earned a big fat ZERO by the NRLC, being labelled pro-choice. If you read the informtaion HERE you will see where he stands on the various birth control/pro-choice issues.

He can hardly be said to be anti-gay, either...if you read his record at that same site. Here're a couple of things noted:

# Rated 78% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
# Rated 100% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
# Re-introduce the Equal Rights Amendment. (Mar 2007)

Lots more info on him which refutes most of guest's claims.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:00 AM

Well, I figure that the next VP of the USA is gonna be a guy from Scranton, Pennsylvania.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:21 AM

Ol' Doom N' Gloom Janet is cherry-picking. Here's the full accounting of where Biden stands on abortion:

    * No public funding for abortion; it imposes a view. (Apr 2007)
    * Supports partial-birth abortion ban, but not undoing Roe. (Apr 2007)
    * Accepts Catholic church view that life begins at conception. (Apr 2007)
    * Nominees should agree on constitutional right to privacy. (Apr 2007)
    * Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
    * Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
    * Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
    * Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
    * Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
    * Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
    * Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
    * Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
    * Voted NO on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
    * Rated 36% by NARAL, indicating a mixed voting record on abortion. (Dec 2003)
    * Expand embryonic stem cell research. (Jun 2004)
    * Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)
    * Ensure access to and funding for contraception. (Feb 2007)

Like I said, a mixed bag. Also noted from the same site:

Religion informs my values; my reason dictates outcomes.
# Religious affiliation: Catholic. (Nov 2000)
# Rated 100% by the AU, indicating support of church-state separation. (Dec 2006)

It is possible to have a religious affiliation and NOT try to cram it down everyone else's throat. Are you trying to resurrect the anti-Catholic BS they tried to use against JFK?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:38 AM

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/joe_biden.htm

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:58 AM

Though he boasts a 'liberal' voting record, his finest moments were around the Iran Contra affair...a situation that still haunts us today. If you have the information, you know. Not going to take the time to educate those who don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 07:15 AM

Like mary garvey, I am from Washington State. Unlike her, I have voted for Republicans. And I always vote in Chinese. Generally I vote for the Republican candidate for Secretary of State of the State of Washington, but not for any other office. My grandmother Emmye Anne voted for Hoover in '28, and didn't make that mistake again until 1964 when she voted for Dan Evans.

Anybody have any good campaign (or other) songs about Biden, or Lieberman for that matter? It ought to be possible to do something with the phrase "Biden: His Time".

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 07:55 AM

I think the reality of Bob Barr running along out there as a Libertarian makes the choice of Lieberman impossible. All the right-wing-religious-wakkos would run out and vote for Barr.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM

Pat Buchanan thinks that if Lieberman's name is put up for nomination it will be defeated on the floor of the Republic Party's convention. Now that would be fun to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM

The best thing about Biden is he will not hurt Obama with any of the groups likely to support him--which most of the other choices could have possibly done. (Except Nunn.)

"First, do no harm".

Second thing about him is, as many have pointed out already, he can be a good attack dog. Anybody who complains about Biden being a divider, not a uniter, is evidently ignorant of the traditional VP role for quite a while now--rip the opposition. For a perfect example of somebody not precisely a uniter, I offer Mr. Cheney.



Best thing about this whole process is that it's now over, and the focus shifts to McCain. No matter who he picks as VP, he loses.

If he picks a conservative fire-eater, he loses the opportunity to appeal to independents, whose views on abortion, immigration, taxes, etc., do not fit with the Neanderthal right----but whose votes he desperately needs. McCain cannot win with just Republican votes.

If he doesn't pick a rock-hard right-wing VP, his own base, already not anywhere as enthusiastic about him as Obama's is about him, has yet another great reason to stay home in November.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:43 AM

McCain cannot win with just Republican votes. Especially since he already has lost some of these. Susan Eisenhower has just again publicly come out against him. And she is not alone.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

McCain could do himself a lot of good by picking somebody with a good track record on the economy. Neither Obama or Biden have any standing there.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:44 AM

A Republican with a good track record on the economy!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

For that matter

A Congress person with a good track record on the economy!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM

I think McCain would do his chances a lot of good if he chose someone like Chuck Hagel. Hagel appears to think outside the box, and he criticizes his own party as freely as he does the opposition. With Hagel as a running mate, McCain would go a long way toward re-establishing himself in the public eye as an independent pol.

Not that I think he ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:48 AM

Well, Jack, I agree with you again. The worst thing to happen to the economy since the Great Depression was Ronald Reagan. But they elected him twices and the great unwashed masses still think those policies are sound. So all the McCain folks have to do is to pay off the witch doctors in the churches to tell their constituencies that "supply-side" is a good idea, and they will win the election.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:25 PM

Its not going to be Hagel. Hagel went to The mid east with Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM

I still think he ought to pick Hillary!

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: pdq
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:54 PM

Does that mean she's ripe?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM

Pawlwnty did cut his mullet. It would be a shame to let a haircut go to waste.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman v Obama/Biden
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

I'm still wondering why Bill Richardson didn't make the final cut. He's a well-respected governor in the Southwest, speaks fluent Spanish, served as Secretary of Energy and Ambassador to the United Nations in the Clinton Administration, and chaired other international committees. Is he being saved for a cabinet post or was there a problem?

Charley Noble