Dogs at Festival

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

Leveller sez: I think a nice Aran sweater would be more appropriate

http://www.swellpets.co.uk/pet-info/jumpers-for-dogs.html

Bugger the dogs, I want one for myself!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM

Tim,

it works like that with humans - it does not work like that with dogs and their irresponsible owners. The dog that bit my daughter was on a lead and sitting quietly. She was playing with some friends not especially near the dog. She was four.

There are dog-owners who have posted on here who do not take their dogs to festivals.

There are festivals that ban dogs.

I really don't see why segregation of a dog from non-dog-owners AT A CLOSED FESTIVAL is such a big issue with dog owners. They are used to restrictions where their dogs cannot go - this would just be another one.

To Lizzie

You don't know whether humans are going to harm a child Lizzie. But we do know place restrictions on people who work with them. And I don't know about you but I warned my kids about contact with adults. (I also warned them about contact with dogs - but it didn't do any good - see above).

You don't know a dog will not harm a child - so all I want to do is place restrictions on them. Similar to the ones that stop (for example) people taking dogs into hospitals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:26 AM

At all the festivals I have been to where cars are allowed on site - then there are indeed special precautions for vehicles - the most obvious one being a speed restriction. At the Ottawa festival a chain of stewards directed people to parking so that no pedestrians came anywhere near cars. Vehicles for disabled people had special arrangements.

All the festival sites where I have been have had restrictions on cars. No-one as far as I am aware, has been injured by an irresponsible car-driver ON A FESTIVAL SITE.

So we do make restrictions. Thinking of the children's play areas I know at closed festivals, they are usually well away from an possibility of car accidents.

Of course we cannot legislate for all eventualities. I am not saying that.

But we can EASILY stop dogs biting children and having fights etc etc on closed festival sites. And I have suggested two ways in which it can done.

Clearly for some reason you prefer to take a chance on it happening again.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

"...How does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible owner and the irresponsible owner when they book and how do you answer the point that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible dog owner?.."

Tell me, Dave, how does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible human and the irresponsible human, when they book tickets and answer the point, that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible human beings?

I will give you Monica Seles, the then young Wimbledon Tennis Player, stabbed in the shoulder, during a match, by someone from the audience...

Or little Maddy, still missing, after just going on holiday with her Mum and Dad.

How do you know that every human being you allow through those gates is not going to harm either a child, or another adult, Dave?

Answer: You don't.

Paedeophiles cause far more risk to our children than dogs. Maybe you should take this up with festival organisers, because hell, they love to hang around places where children are...

And you know what..a family dog would take on a paedeophile any day. Anyone who tried to harm his 'pack' would be treated with the utmost suspicion and aggression, so there you go...

Most Dogs Protect, Dave.

Another way of thinking, for you.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

*winces*

grammar

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

I hereby apologise unreservedly for the appalling grammer or lack thereof in my previous paragraph...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM

"How does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible owner and the irresponsible owner when they book and how do you answer the point that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible dog owner? "

Simple answer Dave - of course they can't. So yes, you are still allowing the risk of something bad happening.

In exactly the same way, when letting people drive their cars onto the site, festival organisers can't distinguish between the responsible driver and the irresponsible driver. So by allowing on all drivers they are allowing the risk of something bad happening.

The point I, and several others, have been trying to make, and which I haven't seen any reply from you on, is why the potential risk of a dog attack, however horrific, is somehow worse, or should be legislated for in a different way, than other risks? Is having your child attacked by a dog somehow worse than having your child run over?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM

"Maybe if dogs were made to wear the following rather fetching folk dog coats everyone would be happy..."

I think a nice Aran sweater would be more appropriate

http://www.swellpets.co.uk/pet-info/jumpers-for-dogs.html

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:16 AM

Folkiedave;I'm not trying to convince you, from your comments, your mind is made up. However, I'm sure you realise that there are more ways of identifying irresponsible owners other than waiting until the dog bites someone, just as it is possible to identify bad drivers before they crash or cause an accident. As with most issues like this, the sequence generally goes; quiet word, stern warning, action of some sort. The intention is always that a quiet word will solve the problem. Festival organisers have a responsibility to make sure that stewards and other staff are aware of the expected standards and are given power to act if they see those standards being breached. There should also be a means for stewards to pass an issue to someone in authority (usually the festival director) if they feel the situation exceeds their authority or competence. This happens already with drunks and yobs, so why not with irresponsible dog owners?
Regards
Tim

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:09 AM

Altan Hound

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 10:06 AM

Maybe if dogs were made to wear the following rather fetching folk dog coats everyone would be happy...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:46 AM

If dog licenses were brought back into this country you would find many dogs on the street as stray.
Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:38 AM

in this country Ireland ,we have to pay for dog licence.
now dogs can only be banned from festivals in enclosed spaces,so at festivals like chippenham and whitby,that is not practical.
I also understood that cetain breeds of dogs had to be muzzled in the uk.,
if dog owners were banned from certain festivals,they would still go to festivals like Chippenham ,Whitby,etc.
Oh and are guide dogs exempt?how is a blind person supposed to use a pooper scoop,isnt this unfair on blind people.
no the idea of banning dogs[at enclosed festivals] is fraught with problems, and not enforceable at fesativals lk ike whitby,much better to have a rule stating clearly that dogs must be on a lead at all times, that certain breeds must be muzzled.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

Enough already.
Some People Like Dogs.
Some People Don't.
I don't care, one way or the other.
Bring 'em all on, Ferrets, Voles, Aardvarks, Camels, Cheetahs, Slugs.
As Long as they can tune a guitar and sing a Ballad, It's all fine by me. Poo or No Poo (Sorry, bit of a Noel Edmunds moment there!)

Latest addition to the Dog Festival

CaperCollie

Seriously, there are no winners on this one.
Let's just let it go.

Ralphie (Owned a Hamster as a child, but, No Dog!)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:19 AM

Fine sentiments Tim.

How does a festival organiser distinguish between the responsible owner and the irresponsible owner when they book and how do you answer the point that once the damage is done it is too late barring the irresponsible dog owner?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 09:13 AM

First off, a declaration of interest; I have two terriers, bred to work (i.e. chase and kill things). They are generally very well behaved and obedient and both have attended obedience classes and have won awards. I don't trust their instincts in some situations, especially when there is something to chase. Therefore, I don't take them to festivals. (I did once, and when a morris dancer dropped a stick, Olly the Jack Russell thought we were playing 'fetch the stick'! Getting him to give it back was tricky...)

There are lots of dogs at most festivals I attend, and the majority are well behaved and friendly. Some owners are irresponsible and allow their dogs to run around not under control, and I condemn this as much as anyone.

The problem I have is that banning, or even segregating dogs leads to something that is becoming an increasing problem in todays world. We are becoming overprotective to the point where some basic freedoms are under threat, and certain aspects of life are demonised as a result. For example; the furore over 'hoodies' has led to a hysterical condemnation of 'the youth of today' in many quarters, despite strong evidence to suggest that most young people are moral, responsible and well-behaved. So it seems to be with dogs. The actual risk of harm from dog attacks or dog-transmitted disease is miniscule (despite the occurrences documented here) compared to that from poor diet, smoking, alcohol, drugs or motoring. Yet many of us indulge in some or all of these activities without calling for action to prevent risk, or even modifying our own behaviour much. The reason; we feel the risk, though known, is either acceptable or expedient.

The key here is the level of risk; it's very, very low, and certainly doesn't justify the knee-jerk reaction of bans or segregation. It is manifestly unfair to punish the responsible owners and well behaved dogs because of the actions of a few people who don't know how to control and train their dogs. Deal harshly with the irresponsible owners by all means.

Some people are afraid of dogs in general. I was, until I owned one. I was bitten as a child, and for many years worried whenever dogs were around. A kind relative helped me over this by showing me how to behave when dogs were around, and introducing me gently to her many dogs. She showed me how a fear of dogs actually increases the risk, as the dog senses a less dominant individual and the pack discipline mentality means that the dog asserts itself more.

Dogs are a fact of life; no-one is going to ban them from our society, so the rational approach seems to be to adapt to that situation, rather than persisting in trying to adapt the world to one's own particular views. Assess the risk, and take proportionate, targeted and reasonable action. Anyone who has a dog that bites someone should have the dog confiscated and be banned sine die from keeping a dog. NO ifs, no buts, no maybes. A dog license should be reintroduced, and there should be a test of fitness/competence before an owner is permitted to own a dog. Such a license should be subject to review and revocation, exactly as a driving license is. As for dog shit; no excuse for not picking it up and disposing of it hygienically.
Tim

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Mad Spaniel
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:36 AM

i have a relatively normal spaniel, loves kids (but can't eat a whole one), lively, funny and a loyal friend.

Can i say that, every minute of every day, he is a saint. No
I try to maintain my pack- kids, dog and cat with as much discipline as needed but he is still a DOG, the kids are still small humans and the cat is still an enigma.

You can't make the dog behave as a human and those that expect them to are irresponsible.

I have been bitten a dog in a social situation but only after it had been spooked by fireworks and i had tried to catch the poor thing.

You may well know (and love) your dog but why put it in a situation with that many people can you gaurantee the behavior of those around you?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:35 AM

Anyway, if a snail crawls into your tent it's just showing it likes you.

Could be lust.......:-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:26 AM

Captain, if you're going to be a speciesist bigot, at least try and get you facts right.

Mollusc
Crustacean

Anyway, if a snail crawls into your tent it's just showing it likes you.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM

Fred, I have expressed no opinion about banning dogs at festivals. You have equated the rights of dogs with the rights of disadvantaged human minorities. I find that disturbing.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:17 AM

Dave, if you feel festivals are now becoming such dangerous places, simply because dogs attend them, then close the festivals down.

Or find a solution to the danger.

Is closing the festivals down your answer - or would you prefer to keep the festivals open as they are with dog fights in beer tents and dogs biting children.

Apart from Fred whose preferred solution is to put his dog on a lead do you have a solution or do you just want children to carry on being bitten occasionally?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

"..Dogs are dogs. Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are human beings. Despite what some people on this list seem to think, there is a difference. "


Dogs are part of this world, in exactly the same way that humans are. We are no better, and no less...and the sooner we rid ourselves of our arrogant attitude of "We are the No. 1 Species' we ain't going to get very far. We've already wiped out huge amounts of other species, because they didn't fit in with us, or because we needed their 'homes' and 'food' to keep us happy.

Dave, if you feel festivals are now becoming such dangerous places, simply because dogs attend them, then close the festivals down.

After all, a child is probably at far great risk of being stung by a bee or a wasp...and how do you know they're not going to be fatally allergic to those stings? Maybe we should also ensure that all trees are cut down, just in case one falls down..or a child swings on a branch and falls off.

Before I had Tigger, I went to more than a few festivals, some of whom allowed dogs in, but at no time did I see a long queue by the First Aid Tent, of people and children dripping with blood from dog bites..nor were there any dogs having arguments in the beer tents over who stole whose pint either..I realise that I obviously went to the wrong festivals, but...come on.

Most people are sensible! The cross-section of life in a festival is pretty much the same as is outside the festival. So when you've banned dogs from ALL festivals, are you then going to start on parks, fields, beaches ALL year round..

Hell, my dogs had the most superb time on beaches, once upon a long time ago, but now, there are very few 'dog friendly' beaches around...because of selfish humans who want this world run to their way and their way only, and that way does not include animals...

Well, I'm sorry, but I regard myself as PART of this ol' world...not above it all. Some dogs are a bloody nuisance, I'm not denying it, but so are some people.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 08:07 AM

Do people take their dogs into the shops and supermarkets? Unless they have different shops and supermarkets in Liverpool to the ones in Sheffield then the answer is no because they have a blanket ban on dogs in supermarkets except assistance dogs. Tesco and Morrison's and ASDA and Sainsbury's all racists and bigots are they?

Ever visited anyone in hospital Fred? Allow you to take your dog in did they? All racists and bigots in hospitals are they?

Would you take your dog to a jazz or folk concert in the Philharmonic Hall? No, because there is a blanket ban on dogs except assistance dogs.

You leave your dog in the car when you go to your jazz club. Why? Because the dog is barred. People who own the premises racists and bigots are they Fred? Surprised you go through the door.

So let's stop the bullshit and look for a solution to the problem of dogs in festivals.

I have made two suggestions. A blanket ban on dogs at festival and a separate area for dog lovers.

So far you have offered to keep your dog on a lead.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:57 AM

lIZZIE,
I went into shock and lost the baby at 15 weeks.The dog that bit my son was actually owned by a vet and was a rescued dog.My husband and i did not go to have the dog put down because we are not like that.I have all so kept my opinion to myself about dogs at festivals,but if anybody wants my opinion they can "pm" me.

Scooby

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:44 AM

Snail. "No it doesn't. Dogs are dogs. Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are human beings. Despite what some people on this list seem to think, there is a difference."

Correct. Does that stop them feeling pain and distress? I know a dog who hates being parted from his owner - mine. That is why I take him with me whenever I can and why I'm opposed to dogs being banned at festivals.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:43 AM

Your solution for the festival organiser faced with stopping a dog biting children at festivals and stopping is...................???????

That does not make sense, it should have read:

"Your solution for the festival organiser faced with stopping a dog biting children at festivals and stopping dog fights is.......???????"

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:41 AM

Sorry Dave. Go back and read some of your earlier sentiments; "No thanks, and not at festivals. Why on earth you would want to bring a dog to a folk festival?"

If that doesn't indicate support for a blanket ban at all festivals, I don't know what does. Do you no longer stand by this sentiment? And if you don't are you going to stand by your present attitude? Or should we ignore that too?


"Some dogs have caused a nuisance at festivals by biting children, fighting in beer tents and in one case causing a miscarriage. Solution - stop dogs going to festivals, where many (as some dog owners have said) get confused, worried and as we know bite people. Or as I suggested, making a separate dog lovers area and charging accordingly).

That is all people are saying. NOT a blanket ban on dogs."

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:38 AM

Careful Dick - banning snails is one thing - you'll be wanting to ban children next.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

stopping "it" of course......

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:36 AM

I think we should ban Snails,they eat my green garden vegetables,they crawl up my door,leaving their slimy trails,I even found one inside my piano,they deposit themseves in my driveway and try to trip me up at night time.
they are very inconsiderate crustacae.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:34 AM

Lizzie The post at:

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Scooby Doo - PM
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 12:07 PM

refers to the miscarriage. I don't know whether the dog biting the child was the cause of the miscarriage. I do know that the person who wrote that says it was and that was good enough for me.

Fred

"Since we know that dogs bite children at festivals". What? Every single last one of them? Sounds like a bad case of tarring everything with the same brush to me.

Is there a chance that the scientists at CERN could make a Large Hadron Bullshit Detector do you think?

Children have been bitten by dogs at festivals. I would like to stop that. You putting your dog on a lead will stop one dog - possibly - though one of the dogs that bit me was on a lead.

Dogs have fights in festival tents. You putting your dog on a lead may stop that, I have no idea.

We know these things happen - and to blame irresponsible dog owners is taken as read, we all know the cause - but the question is how do you stop it?

I have suggested two solutions.

One is to ban dogs - and you clearly do not favour that though there is loads of evidence that it happens elsewhere (without people being accused of bigotry) and clearly it would get rid of any problems.

The other solution is to have a special dog lovers area where they can camp and do doggy things together. Small extra charge.

I suggested some perfectly reasonable rules for that area - insurance, no dogs left unattended, all dogshit to be wiped up, etc.

Your solution for the festival organiser faced with stopping a dog biting children at festivals and stopping is...................???????

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 07:20 AM

Fred McCormick

Some dogs cause a nuisance. Solution. Ban all dogs. Doesn't that remind you of the attitudes some people have towards travellers and Black people and gays and members of the Jewish faith and quite a few other disadvantaged minorities?

No it doesn't. Dogs are dogs. Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are human beings. Despite what some people on this list seem to think, there is a difference.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:35 AM

Fred, yes, I too was meaning hot sunny days. I wasn't having a go at you at all. With global warming it's treacherous these days. On cool days though, it's fine, always in shade just in case that sun gets out though, for even in winter it's hotter than it once was.

"..Some dogs have caused a nuisance at festivals by biting children, fighting in beer tents and in one case causing a miscarriage. Solution - stop dogs going to festivals, where many (as some dog owners have said) get confused, worried and as we know bite people. Or as I suggested, making a separate dog lovers area and charging accordingly)..."


I have lost two little 'souls' inbetween my living children. Whilst no-one can be absolutely sure what causes a miscarriage, I firmly believe that it happens for a reason, that reason being that nature took control of a situation that was never meant to be, for reasons beyond our knowledge.

Women are tough critters, so are healthy foetuses. We can put up with many things during pregnancy, as can our little unborn souls. However, if something is very wrong, then often, a sudden shock can hasten what may well have been due to happen anyway. Very often though, those that are left with unanswered questions as to why it happened, perhaps seek the wrong answers.

I have nothing but sympathy for any woman who has lost a child, be it before their child's birth or after. The pain, to us as women, is very similar, as is the grieving for the child we never got to hold. They are never forgotten.

I would very much hope that now, the constant, and for me at least, upsetting, inference that dogs can cause miscarriages, which is being perpetuated by one person, could be dropped.

With all due respect and sympathy to the lady concerned, way back in this thread.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:10 AM

Most of the problems in the world are caused by people. Maybe we should ban them.

Goodbye cruel world!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

The liberation of animals is the task of the animals themselves.

Oh yes, and animals do have rights. The right to be cooked properly springs to mind...

Yours in struggle against doggism (for are we not all dogs?).

Spleen Cringe

DOWN with the neo-felinist forces of doggist reaction!
DOWN with the bourgeois deviationist pooper-scooper facists!
FIGHT for the RIGHT to drop one anywhere!
DEATH to the yellow bellied CANINIST lackeys and lapdogs!
Lapdogs have rights too!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:42 AM

"Since we know that dogs bite children at festivals". What? Every single last one of them? Sounds like a bad case of tarring everything with the same brush to me. See my observations about racism, anti-semitism, homophobia etc in my reply to Lizzie Cornish.

"So what do you do?" I keep my dog on a lead under proper control.

Following your logic. Since we know that cars kill people (what every single one of them?), shouldn't we be deciding whether we ban cars before or after they cause an accident? And shouldn't we be deciding whether to ban cars of their owners.

Then there's all the parents who fail to bring up their children properly. but that's another story.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:39 AM

Aunt Sally, Fred. There are not too many people saying "ban all dogs." Not me, not Dave as far as I can see. Most dog owners can't understand why some people don't like dogs. We just want a bit more consideration, that's all.   Keep your dog under control (a big ask for an awful lot of owners), keep it quiet, keep it away from other people who demur (I never, ever want anyone's dog to race round my feet or jump up at me or my kids, as were) and pick up the shit. That should be perfectly acceptable.   Otherwise, don't bring it.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:30 AM

Well done lizze now can we drop it and start somthing new, i no we wont but hey enough is enough surely,

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

Fred you are right I know little about dogs in that sense.

I didn't say it was wrong to leave dogs in cars. I said some dog lovers say that. I cannot attest to whether they are right or wrong.

Since we know that dogs bite children at festivals and they have fights in beer tents and in one case were responsible for a miscarriage - what is your solution to the "dogs at festivals" argument? Clearly you believe they should be allowed in. So what do you do?

Let them carry on biting and fighting - or only allow responsible dog-owners who look after their dogs into festivals?

And how will the organisers be able to distinguish them from the other sort when they are booking tickets?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:21 AM

Solution. Ban all dogs. Doesn't that remind you of the attitudes some people have towards travellers and Black people and gays and members of the Jewish faith and quite a few other disadvantaged minorities?

And if it does, then thank God that some of us are sufficiently enlightened to realise that Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are sensate emotive beings, and deserve to be treated as such. And if we can understand that, then pehaps we can understand that dogs and all other animals are sensate emotive beings also.

As someone who could possibly be characterised as anti-dog - though as I made plain I am not anti-all dogs, that is a horlicks of an argument Fred.

Some dogs have caused a nuisance at festivals by biting children, fighting in beer tents and in one case causing a miscarriage. Solution - stop dogs going to festivals, where many (as some dog owners have said) get confused, worried and as we know bite people. Or as I suggested, making a separate dog lovers area and charging accordingly).

That is all people are saying. NOT a blanket ban on dogs.

People have attested they are banned from such events in the USA - I was in Canada this year and they seemed to be banned from the Ottawa Festival and they are banned from Cambridge Festival. The world of dogs has not come to an end. (Though EVERY dog owner I saw in Canada had gloves and a bag to pick up their dog shit and I never ever saw a stray. Responsible dog ownership you might call it and I wish it were that good where I live).

So in answer to your question Fred, wanting to ban dogs at folk festivals does not remind me of racists and bigots at all and I strongly object to being characterised as one.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM

"Lizzie Cornish has closed the argument with her very sensible post."

Indeed!

Blimey, what's happening? Has a new era dawned? I find myself agreeing with Lizzie Cornish! And I'm not the only one.

I'm off for a cold shower!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 05:00 AM

Anyone wanting more information on dog friendly pubs might want to check this link out.

Best Dog Friendly Pubs

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:57 AM

Fred. You leave your large dog alone in your car for two to two and a half hours. Some people would never dream of leaving their dogs in cars unattended for any amount of time.

Sorry Dave. Wrong again. I've been around dogs all my life and I think I understand their wants and needs rather better than you do.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:53 AM

Lizzie,

Congratulations on a totally common sense thread. While I agree with almost everything you've said, there's a couple of issues I'd like to take issue with.

>Most dogs will lay down their life for you. They adore you, they ask nothing of you, save food and water, and in return they give you nothing but love. It is up to you to ensure they are safe and loved in return.<

I agree totally. I personally have had far more bother from great gamin crowds of anti-social adolescents than I ever got from dogs. Compared to a certain humans I have had the mispleasure of knowing, dogs are magic - and well behaved.

>Do not leave them in cars for even 15/30 minutes these days, else in the summer, they will be dead on your return. Baked.<

No. Dogs are perfectly ok in cars, provided there's plenty of room and adequate ventilation. I know. I've checked this point with the RSPCA and the police. The latter informed me that they have adequate powers to deal with situations where dogs are liable to suffer in cars, and they're prepared to use them. Personally, I'm a bit lumbered. I adopted Ben from the RSPCA, who thoroughly vet their dog adoption applicants incidentally, before I was left on my own. Unfortunately circumstances change as circumstances will and, having been left alone, I now take him with me wherever I can. If that means he has to sit in the car for an hour or two, well at least he's enjoyed the journey. And at least I can slip out and make sure he's ok and take him the odd treat and a quick walkies if there's an interval. And I always leave a bowl of water for him on the floor of the car.

But of course don't leave your dog in the car under any circumstances on a hot sunny day for any length of time.

>Think of their sensitive ears, before you take them near live music, with speakers blaring out.<

This needs to be decided on individual merits. Some dogs don't take to music, it's true. I can only say that loud music has never ever bothered Ben. Once he realised that Thursday was the night when we went to my local jazz session, he'd sit in the hall next to his lead wagging his tail in anticipation. He wouldn't have done that if the noise bothered him.

>I won't take him again though, to any festival...because it was stressful for him.<

Absolutely. I'm probably very lucky in that my dog is totally laid back over just about everything.

>whilst he enjoyed his day, he was very glad to get back to the car.<

I took Ben to a festival recently. About 9 pm I figured he must be ready for bed and took him back to the caravan. Didn't want to know. Wanted to get back to the festival where all the fun was.

>I won't put him into kennels, he couldn't cope with it<

I won't put Ben into kennels either and have had to cancel quite a few events where it would have been impractical to take him. He was in the RSPCA kennels for quite long enough after his previous family dumped him. I wouldn't want him thinking that he was about to be dumped all over again.

>Dogs have always been our friends.<

Absolutely. In their natural state dogs don't kill for any reason other than for food. Of course now they've been domesticated it's sometimes a different story, but that's hardly the dog's fault. I never heard of dogs starting wars, or exploiting third world poverty, or depleting the earth's natural resources, or causing climate change, or causing one minsicule fraction of the pollution that humans cause. And yes, there is a problem of dog fouling, or rather there is a problem of dog owners who let it happen. But when did you last see a dog spitting on the pavement or vomitting up vast gallons of lager in the street on a Saturday night? When did you last see a dog committing acts of vandalism or grafitti? And do you know what? I've never yet come across a dog that was a football hooligan.

One final thing before I close this overly long exegesis. Some of the attitudes expressed on this thread have been totally abhorrent to me, not just as a dog owner, but as a human being who has to share this planet with all manner of racists and bigots. Problem. Some dogs cause a nuisance. Solution. Ban all dogs. Doesn't that remind you of the attitudes some people have towards travellers and Black people and gays and members of the Jewish faith and quite a few other disadvantaged minorities?

And if it does, then thank God that some of us are sufficiently enlightened to realise that Blacks, Jews, Gays and Travellers are sensate emotive beings, and deserve to be treated as such. And if we can understand that, then pehaps we can understand that dogs and all other animals are sensate emotive beings also.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 04:15 AM

Stick to avocado dip - it doesn't need cooking and dogs love it. That's why it goes so well with whipstaff.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM

"avocado dip with whipstaff. I think you'll find it normal in some places."

You're probably thinking of guacamole, which goes very nicely with a chihuahua or two.


"Of course he gets his own dinner when we get back"

Tried that with my dog, Fred, but he always burns it. Who said dogs are intelligent?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 08 - 02:44 AM

As a dog owner, I can't understand why anyone would want to take dogs along with them. If I go anywhere I make provisions for my dogs to be taken care of whilst I'm away and if I can't do that, I don't go away...simple.

Another problem is there are a minority of dog owners that don't care for their dogs as they should and that gives the good dog owners a bad name and topics like this are made up as a result of that.

Some people like dogs and some don't and this needs to be understood by all.

There is enough talk of dogs been banned and restrictions put on dogs and their owners as it is without trouble being stirred up like this.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:08 PM

I agree with the last two posters.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:46 PM

Lizzie Cornish has closed the argument with her very sensible post. There's surely no more to be said.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Australian dog owner
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

I love my dog.

I love going to festivals.

Here the majority of festivals, like most organised public events, are "no dog" happenings. The consensus here seems to be that the irresponsible minority make so much of an impact that the responsible majority suffer. With the increasingly litigious nature of modern society, insurance premiums have gone through the roof, and it only takes one person to sue for a child (or themselves) being bitten to mean that the next year the organising body can't afford their premium and so the event doesn't go on.

That said, I wouldn't take my dog to a festival anyway, as I go there to enjoy myself, and don't need to spend my time worrying about whether some idiot is going to tread on her feet or scare her stupid falling over on or near her, or whether someone's badly-behaved brat is going to torment her (I'm not against children either, having raised 4 myself, but let's face it there are children and there are little horrors).