Dogs at Festival

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Sooz on holiday
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:37 AM

Our dog enjoys being with us. We go to festivals. If dogs aren't welcome, neither are we.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:29 AM

Go for it Leveller, it makes more sense than most of dogist posts

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:27 AM

Romany Man, if your ferrets and my lurcher worked together, we'd be able to supply food for the whole festival. Everyone like rabbit pie?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:21 AM

At last common sense.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: romany man
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:58 AM

Lets start something new, what about my ferrets they go to festivals with me, and seem to sleep through most of it, but hey i can put em in me pocket or up a trousert leg, its amazing people cant do that with dogs,

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:36 AM

In my experience, the hot dogs at festivals are far more of a health hazard than real dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:25 AM

That was the idea of putting the list up, so that I could have a drink in peace.


Thanks for that list Fred. It tells people which pubs to avoid too!!

Incidentally looking at the entries for the area(s) I know, it is way out of date.

And one of them that is in - the Rockingham Arms at Wentworth, threw out the BBC Folk Club of the Year.

Still it welcomes dogs - so that's OK.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:20 AM

I tried dog at a festival but I couldn't get the damned thing lit.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:17 AM

I say ban dogs from festivals, I'm sure they don't like it, they fight, poo and get scared by the fireworks.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:05 AM

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:41 AM

I don't take my dog to festivals for selfish reasons - I don't want the responsibility of looking after her when I could be behaving in my usual irresponsible way. It's hard enough having a 8-year old child to keep your eye on, let alone a dog!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:33 AM

200!

LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM

If we're going to bitch about doggie excretions....

What DO doggies do when they get bogies up their nose?


LTS

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM

LATE ADDITIONS

Beaglenifty
Gloworming Tablets

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:12 PM

Just an idea to (hopefully) lighten this thread.
How about organising a festival, just for dogs?

To be held in GNAWICH perhaps.

Provisional Line-up (Subject to agreed Bonio allowance)

Show Of Hounds
Steeley Spaniel
Saint Bernatd Wrigley
The Poo-zies (Sorry girls!)
Coope Boyes and Shi Tzu
Blowzaborzoi
Lunasa Apso

Any more that yould like to see?

Ralphie

PS. Bob Fox didn't sound too keen!

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

We took our dog to Shrewsbury.

Why? What do dogs get out of a folk festivals? Is there a dog entertainer? Or do you leave the dog on its own whilst you go to a concert or a workshop. In a tent? caravan? motorhome? Does it bark whilst you are away from it? How do you stop it barking if you do? Do you rush out of concerts to stop it? Take it into concerts? Do you take your dog everywhere you go? Do you go to the cinema? Concerts? Greengrocer? Butcher? Supermarket?

I'm pretty sure he liked it,

Anthropomorphism. You have no idea whether the dog liked it or not.

lots of tail wagging and looking pleased with himself

Good for the dog - he not do this normally then? And how does a dog show he is looking pleased with himself?

Lots and lots of people seemed happy to see him. Loads of adults stopping to say hello to him

They said "Hello?" Really? Total strangers talked to your dog and expected a reply?

hardly passing a word to me or who ever was walking him at the time

People spoke to a dog and ignored a human? Clearly we are a dog-loving nation and not a person loving nation.....

So I guess for lots of people dogs are welcome at festivals

Really? It would be possible to draw other conclusions!!

Perhaps if you find their presence so difficult you should only go to festivals where dogs are not allowed? That way you are not taking away any thing from people who do like dogs around

Perhaps if you left your dog at home those of us that are not particularly fond of dogs would not have to put up with dogs biting children. Did you not read the first post?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM

Then there's the noise of barking which interrupts the enjoyment of the music that I would be attending for the purpose of enjoying.

Bad mistake there SharonA - no dog barks when it is owned by a responsible dog-owner - and certainly not at night.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:41 PM

Even if all festival-goers with dogs kept them on a leash and were able to control their dogs on the leash and keep them from jumping on passersby or fighting or biting, and even if those dog owners cleaned up ALL the poop that their dogs left behind, there's still the issue of urination and other excretions.

I would not want to walk around festival grounds where a dog had recently squatted and made water. At festivals around here, people sit right on the grass -- sometimes on blankets, sometimes not. I would not want to sit in a dog's piddle... or in the residue of dog poop that had not been properly picked up by the owner... or in dog diarrhea... or in dog vomit... or in a puddle of dog saliva that some breeds drool.

If I had children, I would not want my children to walk on, sit on, roll in the grass on, or otherwise make contact with any of the abovementioned things that dogs excrete.

Then there's the noise of barking which interrupts the enjoyment of the music that I would be attending for the purpose of enjoying.

Lots of disadvantages here, and NO advantages, for festival-goers who do not have a dog (and for those who are considerate enough to leave their dog at home). I say ban them from festivals. Let them roam free in a dog park, but do not turn a music festival for people into a dog park.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

195.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,bloke
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:54 PM

We took our dog to Shrewsbury. I'm pretty sure he liked it, lots of tail wagging and looking pleased with himself. Lots and lots of people seemed happy to see him. Loads of adults stopping to say hello to him, hardly passing a word to me or who ever was walking him at the time. So I guess for lots of people dogs are welcome at festivals. Perhaps if you find their presence so difficult you should only go to festivals where dogs are not allowed? That way you are not taking away any thing from people who do like dogs around.

I know there are a few cases of people getting bitten by dogs, but I would bet there are many more cases of people being harmed by drunks, so that would appear to be a more pressing issue if you are interested in protecting people. I don't like being around loads of drunk people, so even though I like real ale I don't go to beer festivals. Cars on sites are also a major risk, so perhaps your attentions should go there too.

Or ban dogs and see the number of people suporting folk festivals drop by a fair amount.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

Thanks for that list Fred. It tells people which pubs to avoid too!!

Incidentally looking at the entries for the area(s) I know, it is way out of date.

And one of them that is in - the Rockingham Arms at Wentworth, threw out the BBC Folk Club of the Year.

Still it welcomes dogs - so that's OK.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

I don't dislike dogs. Just don't want them at folk festivals and shitting around where I live, slobbering all over me and hearing how "he only wants to play". And barking. And biting people.

Apart from that they are OK. Mostly.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM

Streets and parks and public spaces are for human beings. They earn the money to pay the taxes to maintain those spaces. Dogs are basically parasitic on the human race. They pay no taxes yet they cause expense and inconvenience by making a mess and taking up doctors' time to treat bites, etc. Festivals are for human beings too. I'm not aware that special shows are put on at festivals to entertain dogs. All this ban kids/louts/booze, etc., is a red herring. In any case, I don't usually talk about bans (though I might admit to being secretly relieved if they come into force). I just want dog owners to understand that they have not got the untrammelled moral right to inflict their badly-behaved, noisy, unhygienic pets on those of us who happen to dislike dogs, which is a perfectly reasonable position to have.   We are obligatory but the dog is optional. Now I wouldn't ban caravans either, but I'd put a road tax of £2500 a year on them and restrict their presence on roads to the hours between midnight and 5 a.m. Quite reasonable don't you think? Hope I haven't lost you, Dave... ;-)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:48 PM

Following my posting abouty Dog Friendly Britain, I've now found a similar site. It's called Doggie Pubs at http://www.doggiepubs.org.uk/ .

Both sites have lashings of information about training, vets, health care, dog friendly accommodation etc. Everything in fact which the responsible dog owner needs for a responsible dog.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM

A man on a mission! I see reason and reasonableness are not on the agenda.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 02:30 PM

Every festival should have security. If they are not professional "bouncers" then they are at least charged with security, and the reponsibiility to deal with security is theirs.

I agree and that security should be there commensurate with the possible risks. They should do all they can to minimize those risks. At many folk festivals volunteer stewards are enough.

One way they can minimize risks is to ban dogs. No more risks from that direction.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

The point is Dave that they were thrown out, before any harm was done.

It may be that that is not happening at folk festivals, and it should.

The decent dog owners who take reasonable care and the decent dogs should not be demonised.

Every festival should have security. If they are not professional "bouncers" then they are at least charged with security, and the reponsibiility to deal with security is theirs.

Reasonable care is what is needed. That standard is met, I suggest, by a "dogs on leads, and under control" rule.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:33 PM

Read my publicity?

I've never heard of a child being bitten at a Kennel Club authorised dog show or novelty dog show or exemption dog show. I've only ever seen a couple of people thrown out for having a dog out of control.

Rare to be bitten at dog shows? Richard it ought not to happen at all!! If you can find "irresponsible dog-owners" at dog shows what chance to the rest of us have?

Clearly it is OK to bite judges - especially if they are ex Blue Peter presenters.

As for security being there to remove recalcitrant dog owners - I am not sure what sort of festivals you go to - but I have been to about ten this year. None have needed that sort of security. Are you suggesting organisers get security in to throw out recalcitrant dog-owners? Just in case? Isn't that the nightmare scenario you were complaining about in an earlier post?

Far far easier to ban dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

Read your own publicity. As Purves said - dog bites are rare CERTAINLY AT DOG SHOWS.

The oafs at Ely should have been removed by security. As soon as the dog's propensity and the owner's lack of control were manifested. Not the job of one short fat grumpy elderly punter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Let's sort the dogs out first, then we can turn to the other stuff.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM

GUEST,not a dog owner,

Well said. Anyone who wants to avoid dog haters could do a lot worse than look at this site.

http://www.dogfriendlybritain.co.uk/

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

oh, and performers. One of them head butted somebody at a festival I went to once. Admittedly, he was drunk and aggressive at the time, but then you don't know which performers are going to get drunk and aggressive beforehand do you, so probably best to ban the lot of them...

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM

Les and Folkiedave,

by your logic then might I suggest that as well as banning dogs from festivals could we please also ban:

alcohol
cars
children
tent pegs
camping gas
uneven ground
low walls
musical instruments
local residents

all of the above have at some point caused me, or people I personally know, irritation or injury at festivals. Some of them more seriously injurous than others, admittedly. If you only want to ban the potentially life threatening bits then I'd just stick with banning alcohol, cars, tent pegs and low walls.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:29 PM

It seems people - though admittedly this gentleman seems to have no problem being bitten by a dog - do get bitten at dog shows....

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/uk_national_entertainment/3562483.Terrier_bites_presenter_at_dog_show/

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

I've only ever seen a couple of people thrown out for having a dog out of control.

You mean even at dog shows etc there are irresponsible dog owners? The mind boggles......

If children are bitten at folk festivals but not at dog shows the reason is not dogs.

The logic of that defies me Richard. No dogs=no dog bites. Everyone at the festival could be an irresponsible dog-owner as far as I am concerned - so long as they don't bring their dogs.

And I repeat (to which no-one has yet provided an answer) once a dog owner and their dog get to the stage where they need to be asked to leave - and you yourself have provided enough evidence to show they exist Richard - then it is too late.

As a matter of interest, tell me did you ask the irresponsible boxer-owning, lager-drinking young bloke with a group of knuckle-dragging friends you saw at Ely festival to leave because he was an irresponsible dog owner?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM

I think it is a fair guess that people have been bitten at dog shows.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

If children are bitten at folk festivals but not at dog shows the reason is not dogs.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:51 AM

"Let's just remember this thread was started because a child was bitten at Shrewsbury Folk Festival and needed seven stitches.

It was a bit late throwing the owner out and the dog out at that point wassn't it? "

I think you have said it all Dave.

But I will say this again:

The question is where does it start. How many bites, infections or traumertised children before a ban? One, two, ten, a hundred? Make a reasonable decision.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM

Richard I doubt if anyone here is asking for sanitisation. I am certainly not. And I did many of those things as a child too. But the world has changed - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst.

The fact is that there are other places that people do not take dogs in fact would never dream of taking their dogs. I have never seen a dog in a cinema, I doubt they are allowed in at Glyndebourne, I have never seen a dog at a football matches etc. Dog owners who go to such events make other arrangements for their pets. I'd like folk festivals to be part of that same scenario.

Let's just remember this thread was started because a child was bitten at Shrewsbury Folk Festival and needed seven stitches.

It was a bit late throwing the owner out and the dog out at that point wassn't it?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:13 AM

I'm reminded at this point of the question once posed by Humphrey Litteleton.

"How many legs have donkeys?"

The answer being.....

"No legs have Donkeys"

Could apply to Dogs too, at a pinch.
Oh Well on with the game I suppose.
(becoming more surreal as the hours pass.)

PS1 My Dog's gone to Jamaica......Of it's own accord?
PS2 My Dog smells terrible......Why, Hasn't it got a nose?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM

Almost nothing carries zero risk.

The mindset that any risk is too great has cost us dearly. Children may not climb trees. When younger (about 11 I guess) friends and I used to go unaccompanied to play in the local fields (among the cowshit) and amongst the dense trees of Stanmore common (hurtling along slippery muddy paths on our bikes) where who knows what lurked behing every other tree. We'd badger Steve Parks for a ride in the sidecar on his 500 AJS (not much bite to it but a lovely bark), and Pippy Stratton's older brother for a ride in his MG Magna. Steele's older brother drove us to school in his Alvis estate. I don't imagine any would have passed an MoT today.

However did the human race survive?

Let's take sensible precautions. There is no guarantee of zero risk until everything we do is sanitised and sterilised, no bacteria in cheese, all beer in sterile aluminium drums, no badger sets in the woods.

As for dogs - the dogs should probably not, for their own sakes, be at large electric festivals, but there should be no ban on them. At anything other than slightly enlarged parties for families and friends (with no PA) dogs should be on leads (but not muzzled, it makes it very hard for them to drink) and under close control.

Any person with a dog making a threat of itself should be asked to leave (with the dog).

I've never heard of a child being bitten at a Kennel Club authorised dog show or novelty dog show or exemption dog show. I've only ever seen a couple of people thrown out for having a dog out of control. We used to let our younger daughter, when nothing more than a toddler, roam at dog shows (not usually Maidstone, too close to the river) - we'd put the bench number round her neck on a bit of string so that she could be returned to our dogs on their bench if necessary.

On one occasion we found her curled up on someone else's dogs' bench sound sleep with their dogs. No harm done.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:45 AM

we cross posted, Les....

I, personally, have now come across one incident of injury from dog bite at a festival, in over 15 years of festival going. In same period, I have known of one person who nearly died from tripping over a tent peg and damaging his femoral artery. I'm not calling for a blanket ban on tent pegs and, to my knowledge, neither is he.

yes I'm sure there have been plenty of other dog related incidents that I *don't* know about, but probably plenty of other non-dog related incidents too.

I'm not comfortable with knee jerk reactions even to tragedies.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

"Very large numbers of dogs are outside their owners' control and very large numbers of dogs misbehave in public. "

Very large numbers of people are outside their own control at festivals and quite a few misbehave :)

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:36 AM

sorry Steve if I was arguing with something you hadn't said, in a long thread like this I don't always manage to keep track of who said what.

I don't think I've said that "most dog owners are responsible" either - simply that I've met plenty who are. I guess I was simply trying to challenge a "some are bad therefore ban them all" mindset.

I do think that a lot of dog owners *are* responsible, by your definition, but agree that plenty are not. Ditto parents and drivers...

I guess I also feel that, while there are many irresponsibly looked after dogs, only a small proportion of *them* actually cause anybody physical or psychological harm either by teeth, poo or menaces. And while a victim of said harm might understandably feel that one incident is one too many, that comes back to my car banning analogy. The majority of irresponsibly cared for dogs that I've witnessed have caused nuisance but not much else, and I've seen more nuisance from drunks than from dogs. Ban beer at festivals, anybody?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:33 AM

"It's too easy to whack a ban in place every time something happens that some people don't like, and where does it stop?"

The question is where does it start. How many bites, infections or traumertied children before a ban? One, two, ten, a hundred? Make a reasonable decision.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM

I think you'll find I haven't said anything about bans.   I am simply trying to challenge the "most-dog-owners-are-responsible" mindset.   They are clearly not, and if they were no-one would ever complain about dogs at all. Very large numbers of dogs are outside their owners' control and very large numbers of dogs misbehave in public.   That's the heart of the matter.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: GUEST,not a dog owner
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:56 AM

Steve,

I think all those criteria perfectly reasonable and also attainable, and I know plenty of people who do achieve that with their dogs. They and their dogs are, for me, a pleasure to be around.

I do agree that plenty don't manage to achieve all of those things, even though they should. But I don't think a blanket ban on all dogs is the best way to deal with the situation. It's too easy to whack a ban in place every time something happens that some people don't like, and where does it stop?

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:06 AM

Sorry about that - I was going to reply to "Guest not a dog owner" then decided all the points I wanted to make had been made already.

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM

Guest not a dog owner

Subject: RE: Dogs at Festival
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:09 AM

Define irresponsible. Be honest, think of all the people you know who have dogs. Do their dogs stay close them, even off the lead, unless the owners give them express permission to run off and play? If you can't let your dog off the lead without it charging off out of control you can't call yourself a responsible dog-owner. Can they then recall their dogs to their side immediately with a single call (as opposed to repeated and ineffective bouts of shouting)? Do the dogs never run up to people, charge around their legs or jump up at them ("don't worry - he's only being friendly!")? Does the dog never bark incessantly as soon as it thinks there's anyone near the house/the car? Do they always keep the dog restrained in the car? (how "amusing" it is to see all those dogs' heads hanging out of moving cars!) Does the dog always behave itself when other dogs are around? Do they always give the dogs sufficient exercise or are the poor things locked in the house all day on their own?   Do they always, and I mean always, pick up the shit? No corner cutting? Do you think any of these criteria are unreasonable or unattainable?

We know the answer. There are actually very few responsible dog-owners. Of course, no government would even dare to think of toughening up on them. The biggest lie is that it's only a minority of irresponsible owners who let all the rest down. It's a privilege to own a dog. That privilege is all too often exercised without responsibility.