BS: Joe the Plumber

Subject: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

I am pretty disappointed with the way this man has been treated by the media..but I think it is exposing the snottiness many people have about working people, tradeswomen, etc. Here is a hardworking man (to all appearances), a single father, trying to buy a small business, plying a trade...now the whole country knows he is unlicensed (and I think both campaigns need to cut all the red tape they can to expedite him getting a license asap, get him private plumbing tutors or whatever to pass any tests), owes under $2K in back taxes, etc. etc. And I do think Obama was snarky about plumbers..well, do you know any plumber who makes $250K a year? I suppose some do and more power to them. When I need a plumber I am willing to pay fairly well. Actually, come to think of it I am descended from plumbers on my mother's side..in Texas..where they had to climb under houses with scorpions and snakes..in the Midwest where this guy is from they have ice and snow to deal with...I am pretty disgusted with all the jokes on Letterman, etc. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

No one looks good in this one, mg. Joe the Plumber for whatever reason told a fib to Obama and it was caught on tape. McCain and Obama jumped all over that conversation in the debate to support their tax plans bringing Joe front and center. I bet he wishes he had avoided that rally altogether. No one owes him anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:04 PM

The last plumber I had any dealings with was a nice guy in NYC who collected antique cars and drove around in a vintage Corvette to and from work. He handled mainly industrial accounts and did first rate work earning him a reputation for fairness and good work. He had to turn away business. And yes, he made well over $200,000. He also employed numerous people whom he trained to get their plumber's licenses.
We relied on him for our regular maintenance and knew that in an emergency he or a trained substitute would be there within an hour. We paid a little more for the service and never regretted it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:06 PM

The source of the problem was McCain electing to makie him into an iconic symbol of something he was not--namely, someone who would get hurt by Obama's tax plan. That was just sheer misassessment or falsification on McCain's part, but it was McCain who made that choice.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:07 PM

The McCain campaign should run Joe the Plumber for VP because he has been vetted more than Scary Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM

Depending on if you're doing the plumbing work for a salary or own the company and have employees, the salary varies. If I were to in general judge a contractor's income based on the price an electrical contractor in the neighborhood charges, he'd do very well.

At one point I heard that Joe the Plumber isn't even registered to vote. Kind of makes you wonder what all of the fuss is about.

If he's smart, he'll license the name "Joe the Plumber" and sell the rights to it to a high bidder. Cover his problem with the back taxes, give him something to use to take the classes he needs to get certified or licensed, whatever. Have a little left over for child support.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM

I do think that there is a feeling in the US that "mechanics" -- those who work with hands, those who build the houses and fix the cars, are somehow less than someone who sits in an office and has a college degree. I heard someone who I figured to be an out-of-work stockbroker saying that the head of the NYSE deserved his multi-million dollar salary more than Boeing machinists deserved a raise because he'd gone to college and spent years learning his stock in trade (no, I'm NOT sorry!). I figured the speaker didn't know much about machinists and abysmally ignorant of what it takes to become one.

As I've said before, the sooner labor and management realize that each is dependent upon the other the sooner we can get on with doing what needs to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM

Joe the "plumber" lied. He's not really a plumber. He later admitted that he doesn't really mean to buy a business. It was all a set up for him to get his 15 minutes of fame on Rush Limbaugh. He did not help out other working class people at all in doing what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:31 PM

How do you figure he is not a plumber? Does he not do plumbing work for a plumber? What could he be called other than a plumber, unliscensed if you will? He might not be able to buy the business because of the licensing problem, which I think people now have a duty to help him obtain. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:44 PM

I'm The Man That Built the Bridges
Words and Music by Tom Paxton

I cleared the rocks and timber from the wild New England shore,
I labored long and hard to make it grow.
I built the first log cabins and I raised a family,
Told King George and all his Redcoats where to go.

    [Cho:]
    I'm the man that built the bridges.
    I'm the man that laid the track.
    I'm the man that built this country.
    With my shoulders and my back.
    I'm the man that built the power dams,
    And oiled all the cars,
    And I laid down the cornerstone
    For this great land of ours.

I'm the boy that drove the wagons when the people headed west,
Dug canals and pulled the barges on their way.
I built and ran the factories, cut the timber for your homes,
Drove the oxen when I cut and baled the hay.

[Cho:]

I built the old sod shanties and I raised the prairie towns,
I made the railroad run from sea to sea.
I raised and drove the cattle to feed a growing land,
And the mining towns are there because of me.

[Cho:]

I stoked the mighty furnaces and rolled the flamin' steel,
I operated oil rigs and wells.
And when the country needed them, I built the planes and tanks,
To send the tyrants down to fry in Hell.

[Cho:]

Well, my face may not be pretty and my clothes are not the best,
And there ain't no bigshots in my family tree,
But if you're wonderin' who it was that made this country great,
You don't have to look no further, it was me.

[Cho:]

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

GUEST,mg - He has admitted that he is not buying and never was buying the business. He makes about $40,000 a year and owes back taxes. In no way is he in a position to buy this business. He tried to make Obama look bad on video and got caught in the lie.
If you like, he is a plumber but not a licensed plumber. I repeat - no one owes him anything. He got caught in his own lies.
He made both candidates look foolish. He made himself look like an ass. And he probably made a lot of decent working people angry with his stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

I haven't seen it where he says he is not buying and never was buying the business. Can someone please provide an exact quote and reference, which I usually don't ask for, but I don't like slander..oops I should say I like fact-finding. I think it is not unreasonable for somone with a 40K income to buy a $250 K business..I imagine it is done all the time. I think he might have been engaging in some future wishful thinking rather than making direct plans. I don't know the man.

I am a decent working people and so far am not angry with him. I do get angry with people who are disrespectful of working people, less educated people, etc.

Aren't they the sort we sing all these folk songs about when all is said and done? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Old old Allan King joke from a monologue on traffic, imagine this with a New York eastside accent:

"...there's a democracy about traffic. The same stalled tanktruck is holding up a banker, making a hundred thousand dollars a year, and a plumber, making a hundred fifty thousand dollars a year."

Joke dates from the early 70's.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

I thought Obama's conversation with Joe the Plumber was pretty good - respectful, genuinely informative, and not in any way patronising. The way McCain a specimen example of phony populism, and letting the poor guy in for a media circus that could well end up hurting him badly.

Of course it could equally well end up doing him some good, but it's not McCain's place to play games with a stranger like that, without his approval. Of course perhaps it did have his approval, and that stuff about "my old buddy Joe" was actually true, and the whole thing was cooked up in advance, But I don't think that should be assumed.

The odd thing is, the so called issue at the heart of this - the extra tax involved on the difference between the $250,000 ceiling and the $280,000 Joe was imagining this plumbing firm as making - doesn't sound like enough money to actually make much of a disincentive.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:58 PM

THE FARMER IS THE MAN

Oh the farmer comes to town
With his wagon broken down,
Oh the farmer is the man who feeds us all;
If we'd only look and see,
Well I think that we'd agree
That the farmer is the man who feeds us all.
The farmer is the man,
The farmer is the man.
Lives on credit 'til the fall,
Then they take him by the hand,
And they lead him from the land,
And the middleman's the one who gets it all.

When the lawyer stands around
While the butcher cuts a pound,
He forgets that it's the farmer feeds 'em all.
And the preacher and the cook
Go a-strollin' by the brook,
They forget that its the farmer feeds' em all.
The farmer is the man,
The farmer is the man.
Lives on credit 'til the fall,
With the interest rate so high, its a wonder he don't die,
And the middleman's the one who gets it all.

When the banker says he's broke,
And the merchant's up in smoke,
They forget that it's the farmer feeds 'em all.
If he'd only take a rest,
He could put 'em to the test,
Cause the farmer is the man who feeds 'em all.
The farmer is the man,
The farmer is the man.
Lives on credit 'til the fall,
His condition it's a sin,Cause his pants are gettin' thin,
We forgot that he's the one who feeds us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

The Field Behind The Plow
Stan Rogers

Watch the field behind the plow turn to straight, dark rows
Feel the trickle in your clothes, blow the dust cake from your nose
Hear the tractor's steady roar, Oh you can't stop now
There's a quarter section more or less to go
And it figures that the rain keeps its own sweet time
You can watch it come for miles, but you guess you've got a while
So ease the throttle out a hair, every rod's a gain
And there's victory in every quarter mile

Poor old Kuzyk down the road
The heartache, hail and hoppers brought him down
He gave it up and went to town
And Emmett Pierce the other day
Took a heart attack and died at forty two
You could see it coming on 'cause he worked as hard as you

In an hour, maybe more, you'll be wet clear through
The air is cooler now, pull you hat brim further down
And watch the field behind the plow turn to straight dark rows
Put another season's promise in the ground

And if the harvest's any good
The money just might cover all the loans
You've mortgaged all you own
Buy the kids a winter coat
Take the wife back east for Christmas if you can
All summer she hangs on when you're so tied to the land

For the good times come and go, but at least there's rain
So this won't be barren ground when September rolls around
So watch the field behind the plow turn to straight dark rows
Put another season's promise in the ground
Watch the field behind the plow turn to straight dark rows
Put another season's promise in the ground

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM

Do a Google Search on Wurzelbacher (his real name) and you will find multiple reports on Joe the Plumber.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM

did a google search and don't have time to pursue this much now..also had googled joe the plumber. I have not come across the information regarding him never intending to buy the company. Can someone please get more specific on that. You would think that would pop up in the first few hits. Rapaire, you are a librarian with vast resources at your disposal. Can you please give us a reference to that. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:40 PM

Poor Joe got more attention than he was figuring on, but perhaps that's fitting because his intention was to "corner" and embarrass Obama, based upon his complete misunderstanding of Obama's actual tax policy.

Joe is typical of a large number of right-leaning American voters who have been regularly voting against their own economic interests for a number of interrelated reasons encouraged by the neoconservative propaganda machine: "social conservative" considerations related to religion and/or sexuality, a general prejudice against the less affluent population based upon the completely false assumption that the beneficiaries of various progressive programs would be people other than themselves (specifially, people of racial/ethnic groups other than their own), and most tellingly, fantasizing that one is likely to (1) get rich and then (2) benefit from Republican policies favoring the rich (which of course are currently making it especially unlikely that he'll ever be able to pull himself up by his bootstraps).

It may or may not be remotely possible for Joe to buy his boss's business; first of all, the boss will need to be in a position to sell out and retire, which may be problematic in these hard times.

But even granting that Joe might be able to achieve his ambition, he's taking a very long leap of faith when he's worried about earning a net income of more than a quarter-million dollars from a business whose current gross is not much more than that, and then worrying about the "extra" taxes he might have to pay after he becomes several times more affluent than he is today.

It would make a lot more sense for Joe to base his opinion and his vote upon his current real-life economic situation, which is one that he shares with the vast majority of Americans, black and white alike.

He may be sufficiently deluded to still believe in the "trickle-down" theory, which is basically a scare tactic: you'd better agree to ever-more-favorable treatment for the already-overprivileged, or else they'll quit providing jobs for you to hold.

If the current crisis hasn't served to shake people's faith in that shopworn neoconservative myrh, I don't know what will.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM

The truths on this story are changing rapidly. I could have sworn I saw a quote from Joe that he had no realistic short term possibilities of buying, but it's not included in what I think is the most current and accurate summary (for the moment), here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJgQMVekT3Jg&refer=home

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

"I am pretty disappointed with the way this man has been treated by the media..but I think it is exposing the snottiness many people have about working people, tradeswomen, etc. Here is a hardworking man (to all appearances), a single father, trying to buy a small business, plying a trade...now the whole country knows he is unlicensed (and I think both campaigns need to cut all the red tape they can to expedite him getting a license asap, get him private plumbing tutors or whatever to pass any tests), owes under $2K in back taxes, etc. etc. "

Oh boo hoo. What a tough break. The fact that he was able to make a living by taking short cuts that others have the honor to ignore doesn't seem to bother you?   No one is throwing the cuffs on him, and if you are going to blame anyone, blame that sorry-ass McCain who kept bringing him up.   If it wasn't for the winded shit-stirrer, no one would have discussed Joe the Plumber.

Wake up MG!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

Anyone who might be Googling, see if you can find any information on Joe's close relative who apparently shared in the proceeds of the Keating 5 savings-and-loan scam, along with (guess who) John McCain.

This person is said to be an uncle, or maybe an older cousin, also currently living in Ohio, with the exact same name as Joe: Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher.

I heard this more than 24 hours ago from a reputable source (NPR, if I'm not mistaken), but since I haven't heard of any growing controversy, perhaps it's not true after all.

***********************************

Plumbers are certainly respectable human beings in general, and they are VERY capable of making very respectable incomes. One of the best aspects of their profession is that it is absolutely recession-proof and crisis-proof: When times are hard, you can put off buying a new car, you can eat out less often, etc., etc., but if your toilet malfunctions, you WILL call the plumber and pay him whatever he asks.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM

Dear boo hoo...what short cuts are we talking about? I think I heard him say he works 10 to 12 hours a day..doing work that involves twisting, cramping, filth, etc. What short cuts again?

This sneering has great implications for trying to raise people out of poverty..and the trades are one of the best ways out for those who are not academically inclined..sneer and keep on sneering and fewer and fewer people will follow this path, that our ancestors followed most of them...and some will be condemned to poverty, crime etc. A very ugly underbelly of America is showing itself now. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

Extract from the New York Times, Oct. 17:

As it turns out, Joe the Plumber, as he became nationally known when Senator John McCain made him a theme at Wednesday's final presidential debate, may work in the plumbing business, but he is not a licensed plumber.

Thomas Joseph, the business manager of Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics, based in Toledo, said Thursday that Mr. Wurzelbacher had never held a plumber's license, which is required in Toledo and several surrounding municipalities. He also never completed an apprenticeship and does not belong to the plumber's union, which has endorsed Mr. Obama. On Thursday, he acknowledged that he does plumbing work even though he does not have a license.

His full name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher. And he owes back taxes, too, public records show. The premise of his complaint to Mr. Obama about taxes may also be flawed, according to tax analysts. Contrary to what Mr. Wurzelbacher asserted and Mr. McCain echoed, neither his personal taxes nor those of the business where he works are likely to rise if Mr. Obama's tax plan were to go into effect, they said.

From the "Toledo Blade":

...Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell's license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work.

He is also not registered to operate as a plumber in Ohio, which means he's not a plumber.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was hired by Mr. Newell six years ago and that the possibility of him eventually buying the company was discussed during his job interview.

He said it's his understanding he can work under Mr. Newell's license as long as the licensed contractor works on the same site.

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he is working on taking the Ohio plumbing contractors' license test.

Mr. Wurzelbacher's notoriety has raised the ire of Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, who claimed that Mr. Wurzelbacher didn't undergo any apprenticeship training.

"When you have guys going out there with no training whatsoever, it's a little disreputable to start with," Mr. Joseph said. "We're the real Joe the Plumber."

Mr. Joseph said Mr. Wurzelbacher could only legally work in the townships, but not in any municipality in Lucas County or elsewhere in the country.

"This individual has got no schooling, no licenses, he's never been to a training program, union or non-union, in the United States of America," Mr. Joseph said....

The question about buying the business seems to be whether or not he could ever afford to do so. A divorce action in 2004 (it seems to be, or perhaps 2006) showed an income of about $40,000 per year. He does seem to be a registered voter (although his name might be misspelled), according to the Lucas County (Ohio) elections office.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM

"what short cuts are we talking about?"

Working without a license, not getting the required training.

No one, other than yourself, is sneering at this man. He is not going to jail for these infractions.

McCain tried to turn him into a campaign ploy and it backfired. "Joe the Plumber" was brought up two dozen times after he was turned into a talking point.   The Republicans focused the media on him and you cannot blame the media for doing their job.   The internet was abuzz with searches from INDIVIDUALS like you, and if people are interested, the media will follow. Face the facts MG!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

If McCain was trying to appeal to the small business owner whe cleared a quarter million a year, he probably did----to all ten of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

Lots of people work without licenses and without training. As long as they do not mislead their consumers, and can do the work, I won't condemn them..it is far better if they do have licenses and ongoing education and good training to start with and I hope that there are more doors open to people to obtain all these things, starting with Joe Sixpack the Plumber. He is probably someone who could have benefited from career counseling in the past, and still could. Part of the problem, at least in the past, was there were many obstacles to getting into the trades. They were not easy to get into...all sorts of rules etc. and favors to family members etc. So a person could have had, at least in the past, all the good intentions in the world and not have broken in...this used to be the case and I used to be involved in these issues long ago. Hopefully it is changed. I haven't kept track. Hopefully there is a good technical college near him and he and others can get their proper certificatons. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM

MG, I am in agreement with you that work in the building trades should not be "sneered at," but I am dumbfounded that you think that this particular guy is owed favcorable treatment:

"I think both campaigns need to cut all the red tape they can to expedite him getting a license asap, get him private plumbing tutors or whatever to pass any tests."

There are plenty of individuals who could use a break or two like that, including many who did not set out to stir up trouble with a Presdential candidiate they oppose for questionable reasons.

If Joe has half a brain, or even if he just knows anyone with a bit of imagination, he should find some kind of a way to capitalize on his 15-minutes-of-fame. Why he should be given any additional help, to the exclusion of thousands of other plumbers who have undergone training and paid for licenses, etc., and who are paid up on their taxes, is beyond me...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM

MG - I don't think that there is a "dislike" of Joe the Plummer and I do believe everyone would like to see him succeed. I also do not think people are "sneering" at him, or at the profession.

You also paint a rosey picture of unlicensed tradespeople, which is clearly out of sync with reality.   I assume that if you have no problem with unlicensed tradespeople earning a trade, you also welcome with open arms the illegal aliens that are trying to feed their families?

You seem to twist the words to make it sound that this is some sort of looking down at trades. I think the message is pretty damn clear - Obama is trying to make it easier for families to survive AND prosper, so that someone like Joe can get to a position where he can purchase a business. I would love to be able to afford $250,000 to buy a business, but it is not within my reach - thanks in great deal to the past 8 years.

The bottom line for me - when I ask if I am better off than I was 8 years ago, the answer is a clear "no". We need a change and the change won't come from McCain.   If Joe the Plummer had the counseling that you mentioned, he would realize that Obama's tax plans would put him in a better position to receive training and save to afford that business.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:30 PM

Because he has been badly harmed by all this, that is why. I don't know his tax situation. Maybe his money went to his divorce lawyer. I know if it is property tax you can not pay for a few years. I personally would send him a few dollars to help pay his taxes (he could promise to fly out if I need a plumber). He has been the butt of all sorts of joke and nasty comments and people are probably snooping through his garbage right now. I don't know how he set out to stir up trouble..didn't the campaign come to his block? I don't think he traveled to see the campaign. I think they said he was playing ball with his son and spoke his mind, which he gets to do. I doubt he is a legal or financial whiz or probably very business minded, and probably the same could be said of his boss, and many many small operators around this country...who know how to rescue us from many big and small emergencies. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

I am an omniist and I wish the illegals well as well. I know many are unliscenced. I never could spell that word. It is a complicated situation, for security reasons especially. I don't have any desire to go after them, I don't seek to deport them. I know many are involved around here. I do hope we don't allow terrorists to sneak in with them is my biggest concern. For all I know Joe what's his name could be illegal also...except he is registered to vote, perhaps with false documents. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM

Skipping the "is he or isn't he" stuff, and going back to the $250K issue - it is my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong (you are all generally pretty good at that), that the tax rate in question (35% vs 39%, I think) applies to adjusted gross income, which would be income after all deductions, including business expenses (including overhead, salaries, licenses, etc) are taken out. If so, and if he were to clear over $250,000 per year, he would be a well-paid plumber indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 05:48 PM

There are reasons why one is supposed to get a license to do work like plumbing. When those reasons are applied fairly, it benefits everyone.

I almost bet that, if Joe cann't 'yet' pass the exam, there are jobs he is not able to do in plumbing...but if he takes a job and hits an area beyond his expertise, the temptation is to fake it & hope, rather than farm out the job and lose money.

   *I* can fix a leaky faucet or clean a drain or run a line for water to a refrigerator, but I sure can't install sump pumps or do copper fittings....etc.

Joe needs that official license.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM

One of the indications of maturity is when you step back and say, "I can't do this. Now I call in the professionals."

By the way, from something I read (in the "Blade" I think) and didn't extract, he was playing football with his son in his front yard when Obama came along. Also, the tax money owed is for income tax, not property tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM

Plenty of people who do stuff like plumbing who don't know what they are doing, and they give rise to a lot of valuable trade making good by people who do know what they are doing.

Licensing for a skilled job like plumbing or electrics, where mistakes can be pretty disastrous, aren't red tape. They make sense in the same way that insisting on the same kind of licensing for drivers does.

When a politician picks up a member of the public and starts using them as a club to beat their opponent over the head with, as McCain did, that is not going to be comfortable for that club.

I hope Joe manages to parley his fifteen minutes of fame in such a way as to come off better. But it's liable to be a rough ride, and that is McCain's doing. (And perhaps his own choice to some extent.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM

My understanding is that he owes back taxes because he is against taxes on principle.

(If my toilet malfunctions, I fix it myself. It's not that hard to do.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM

(depends.. I have a toilet with a weird valve/flush system. It leaks a bit, and the innards can't be replaced off-the-shelf. It may have to be totally disassembled and new works put in. I 'might' be able to do it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

Now it seems that the McCain campaigh is blamin' Obama for exploiting Joe the Plumber and getting him in trouble for not being licensesd...

Ahhhhhh, excuse me, but who brought the guy up in the debate???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM

It's easy to take apart a toilet and completely rebuild it with all new innards. I know... I've done it. No sweat.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Arkie
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM

What I heard was that "Joe" later commented that he had wanted for sometime to put hard questions to a politician to make them squirm. He had his chance. McCain, as he has done numerous time jumped on something to detract from his own record as well as avoid dealing with issues of real concern. So it becomes a matter of judgment. Again, McCain did not use good judgment. He tackled a subject without knowing the details. Actually, that seems to be a pattern. Not knowing, or possibly caring, about the details. His opinion of American voters must be they are so stupid they will accept his word as truth or fact irregardless of the number of times he is disproven.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:02 PM

I've replaced the toilet innards several times, but I wouldn't want to do it on the toilet in my master bathroom. It's air-propelled low-water flush and sounds like a jet plane when flushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM

"Because he has been badly harmed by all this, that is why. "

What are you smoking? In what way has he been "badly harmed"? Showing his mug on TV starting to upset him? Just say no? Uncovered for dodging his taxes? Tough! You do the crime, do the time.

This plumber is not the victim here. Stop your evil twisting, it doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:06 PM

If he didn't want the attention, he wouldn't be appearing on all of the talk shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM

He is loving it. He has not been "hurt" at all by the attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM

you can drive without a license. You can plumb without a license.
You can even become president without a license, a knowledge of history or even common sense.

Joe has been up to his elbows in shit and so is the country.

Joe will be yesterday's news and carry a legacy that will serve him well if he ever passes his license test.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

"put hard questions to a politician to make them squirm I've seen plenty of clips of that happening to politicians, including Thatcher and Blair, getting ambushed by a member of the public with a tough question they couldn't handle.

The interesting thing is that that didn't happening in this encounter. Looked to me as if Obama handled it perfectly well, no squirming, no flanneling, no sweat.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM

just the 6:00 o'clock mainstream news and good ol' time politiks guys.

"Life is a carnival--two bits a shot
Saw a man with the jinx in the third degree
From trying to deal with people--people you can't see
Take away, take away, this house of mirrors
Give away, give away, all the souvenirs
We're all in the same boat ready to float off the edge of the world"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM

From the Washington Post:

"Wurzelbacher, whose legal name is Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, owes the state of Ohio $1,182 in personal income taxes, according to tax records that show a lien for that amount filed against him in January 2007."

From Countdown, last night, on MSNBC:

1) "Joe the Plumber" is not a plumber.

2) "Joe the Plumber" does not have his own business but works for a contractor.

3) "Joe the Plumber" is not buying his boss' business.

4) "Joe the Plumber's" boss does not make $250,000/year but approximately $100,000.

5)"Joe the Plumber" does not make $250,00/year but approximately $ 40,000/year.

6)"Joe the Plumber" has appeared on Conservative talk radio and may be a "shill".

They also said, on Countdown or the Rachel Maddow Show, that he is NO relation to the Keating Five person of the same surname. Of course, the way McCain's spin factor changes every few hours, that may be out of date, already.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM

"Lots of people work without licenses and without training. As long as they do not mislead their consumers, and can do the work, I won't condemn them..it is far better if they do have licenses and ongoing education and good training to start with..."

I've hired many a plumber in the rentals I managed and believe me, I want a licensed one. If a plumber botches a job, whether through ruining a wall or breaking a water line or just plain not finding a leak, I want recourse. I also want the person to be bonded or at least bondable and I want him to have insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM

I just have the feeling our ancestors are looking down at us right now and thinking is that how they feel about us. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:33 PM

Funny thing... McCain says the dems are the ones exploiting JtP but JtP seems to be the star that MCain has affixed his political future???

Fact is stranger than fiction???

Beam me up, Scotty...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:47 PM

mg, my dad was a welder, after growing up as a cattle rancher. He had to go to school and get licensed before he could sell his skills as a welder. My son is a HVAC specialist who had to take tests and get all kinds of licensing, etc. before he could get his job. My new son-in-law, the same thing as a concrete finisher aka artist. They were all three willing and able to take the time to learn, follow the guidelines, and guarantee their work as good and dependable. My dad had an eighth grade school education, but through reading all of his life and his very well-read parents and grandparents, he was as smart, well-read, and articulate as any college professor. My dad would not think much of JtS, I can assure you, neither would my grandparents.

ON another note, I heard last night that someone has already bought the domain name "joe the plumber." IF the guy was a real plumber, I think there might be a case made for him getting the domain name; as it is, that would be a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

A couple of decades ago, there was a guy doing a lot of work in the coop apartment in which my wife and I live. Apparently the co-op board didn't check this guy's credentials. He did such a lousy job in our bathroom that I fired him and hired someone else. I won't go into the lurid details, but suffice it to say that he also did some work for the woman who lived two floors above us. A couple of months afterward, the hot water pipe to her bathtub let go and flooded the two apartments below with hot water. We were having dinner with friends, and when got home, we found our apartment door open and discovered that several of our neighbors were our apartment and were trying to clean up the mess.

Wallpaper hanging loose off the walls, plasterboard on the ceiling dangling in big chunks, carpets soaking wet, several pieces of furniture ruined beyond repair. . . .

The same thing in our upstairs neighbor's apartment. The two apartments below the third floor apartment were inundated.

The licensed plumber who fixed the offending bathtub pipe said that the guy had not used the correct connector and had "improvised." I believe he mentioned something about duct tape!

It cost us a bundle to fix the damage. The "plumber" himself had disappeared, but we found out that he fancied himself an "independent contractor" and didn't have any of the required licenses, either plumbing or electrical.

Sue? How? He had moved out of state and no one knew where he'd gone.

No bloody sympathy on my part!

Mary, you wouldn't go to a doctor who worked without the legally required licenses or training, would you?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM

Well, there ain't too much to plumbin' these days... Used to be that you had to pack cast iron hubs with horse hair and then put a band around 'em and then pour liquidfied led that you heated over a little gas furnace... No more... Just a little sandin', primer and glue...

The rest of it is purdy straight forward... Hot on the left, cold on the right and, well, everyone knows the rest...

No if JtP couldn't figure that out then it's no wonder that he's voting fir McCain... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

I am voting for people to have licenses. I think it is the best way to go. Let's encourage all of the people to get their licenses.      I hire them. I prefer them. I'm just not going to throw him off the bridge. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

Throw him off the bridge? No, McCain already did that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM

Personally I think he jumped off that bridge his little old self. Lie on national TV and someone's bound to point it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

I think there are some assumptions being made here that if they are not true, I certainly would call slander, and I think they would interfere with him and his boss earning a livelihood.

I haven't heard it said that he was illegally operating as a plumber without a license. If that is so, he should be shut down until he can get a license. If he is defrauding people by stating he has a license, he should be prosecuted. If it is just that it is generally better to have a license, that people are well-advised to preferentially hire people with licenses, no argument here. It is better. There are other circumstances...many financial...many educational...I don't know why he doesn't have a license. It sounds like he was at least operating under the assumption, for many years (years when it seems the boss would have been shut down at some point) that he was legal at least in parts of the township or whatever they have. I don't know. If he is doing something crooked, throw the book at him. If he is an honest working man, who might have skills that most of us could never acquire (I don't know..maybe he just unclogs toilets day and night)..he should be encouraged to get his license etc. etc. I personally think twice before doing or stating anything in a very public forum that comes between a man/woman and a job.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:15 PM

My problem with "Joe the Plumber" is that he created a fiction about how he would be impacted by Obama's tax plan. In his fiction, he could possibly be hurt by the plan. But in his real life situation, he would be helped a lot by Obama's plan.

Joe said that the company he wants to buy nets more than 250,000. It does not. It nets around 100,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:21 PM

well then it should be that much easier for him to buy.

I doubt that he deliberately created a fiction. A whole lot of people can't figure out tax stuff and I bet he is one of them. He needs a financial adviser for sure. If he knowingly created a fiction, he would have figured out that someone would expose it instantly. I think he spoke in good faith, and made errors in calculation, perhaps based on philosophy more than sitting down with a calculator or a spreadsheet. We still need to respect and support out tradespeople and encourage them to get the proper training and licensing, and remove as many obstacles to doing so as possible.

One thing that is a barrier is just lack of English sometimes. Other problems are transportation, child care, lack of money, lack of time. All sorts of reasons other than BEING BAD for someone not to get his or her license. I don't know. When I know I shall make a pronouncement as to whether he is guilty or innocent. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

I don't think Joe the Plumber is being libeled or slandered here. The comments people are making are based on information available so far, and I'm quite sure whatever the facts are, they will soon be clarified. But there is one fact we know:   John McCain dragged Joe into the fray by trying to erroneously characterize Obama's tax policies, and it looks like the ploy backfired on several counts.

Let the chips fall where they may.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:31 PM

"I haven't heard it said that he was illegally operating as a plumber without a license."

mg, all you have to do is look at the information posted at the beginning of this thread. The licensing board in his county confirmed that he is not licensed as a plumber there. Use the state of Ohio's link to the construction industry's trades people, and you will see he does not come up as a licensed plumber in Ohio.

He is not helping out legitimate trades people by spouting off the stuff he is saying about being against social security, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:43 PM

Do Americans use the term "cowboy" in this context?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 08:52 PM

Me thinks that JtP has been groomed as McCain's "October Surprise"... Problem is is that JtP has bombed... License or no license, McCain wished he'd never heard of JtP... But now he has wedded himself to JtP... Seems appropriate seein' as every trick that McCain has pulled off so far looked like Wylie Coyote trying yet gain to out wit the Road Runner...

In the words of the phophet: He who sleeps with the plumber wakes up smellin' like _______...

Know what I mean, Vern???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:20 PM

The reality is that Obama's tax plan will make it easier for Joe the Plumber to buy that business. That's the whole point.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:22 PM

No, he did create a fiction. He flat out lied about how much the business he wants to by nets yearly. That's just an out and out lie. He has no business saying the company nets more than $250,000 if he doesn't know how much it nets. He was deliberately lying just to make Obama's tax plan look bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:24 PM

I just want to weigh in on this a bit. I got out of dental school and had to pay back over $350,000 while trying to put three kids plus my wife through college. I built a business on a shoestring, built it up over 25 years, put all my family through college, paid every damn dime that I owed, pay more than my share of taxes every year, pay about $25,000 per year into charities, have 7 full-time employees and 3 part-time employees that each make at the top of their wage scale, and yes, by God, I make and earn over $250,000 per year.
I am not ashamed to say it, I am proud of the fact that I pulled myself up by the bootstraps, never whined when things didn't go my way, never expected a damn penny that I didn't earn, and more than anything, I lived within my means and didn't spend money I didn't have to spend. I am certainly not alone. I know hundreds of people who are in my same economic catagory. I could pull back, work less, let half my staff go, and cruise for the next ten years below $250,000 but I have an obligation to the family I have at work, my staff who come to work every day for me and give me their best because they KNOW I give them mine.

I work hard, don't take time off when I have a headache or a runny nose or just don't feel good.   My staff has the exact work ethic. This, my friends, is the state of the small businesses that run the economy. Do I want to "Share the wealth?" Hell yes, I share the wealth all the time, by discounting or writing off bills to people who are struggling, by buying groceries and baby clothes for patients who we know are in financial troubles. I give to every worthy cause that I identify as truly worthy. I have helped my staff above and beyond their salaries so much they have such a loyalty to me,they would do anything for me. Do I want to delegate this sharing of the wealth? Who in the hell is in a better position than I am to be a steward? NO one! I guarantee my sharing of the wealth, dollar-for-dollar is better spent than anyone else would ever do with my money.
Go on, laugh, ridicule criticise, make some attempt to undermine my philosophy of what I know and believe as true compassionate Conservatism. Sorry to get on a rant, but it is about time that you are at least made aware of a different way of thinking than Iever see here in this community os supposedly "liberal thinkers."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Those are some sterling accomplishments.

However, the tax cuts of the last eight years have disproportionately benefited the upper tax brackets. And I didn't see any complaints when the redistribution of wealth was moving in the other direction (from the bottom to the top).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:33 PM

No, McGrath, America has real cowboys who are hard working laborers in the agriculture industry. It is not a pejorative. When you say cowboy in the USA, people think of good guys who work hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:41 PM

I don't complain either way. I simply put my head down, shut the hell up, and work my ass off. It is how I do it. I don't sit around whining because life isn't fair. It works well, I would recommend the technique. It works for anyone who tries it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:41 PM

Thanks Alice, for the last post, I am a cowboy!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:50 PM

yippee for cowboys!

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:14 PM

I think the suggestion that people who are working to get a candidate elected who represents our interests are "whining" is about as elitist as it is possible to be.

We work hard, too. We own our own small business and neither one of us has any health insurance. And we can't get it because of pre-existing conditions. We are both above 50 and this could become a life and death issue for us in the not too distant future. To accuse us of whining because we are working to get a candidate elected who will work for us and not for a small few at the top, I find rather telling, and quite frankly, it surprises me because I had thought much better of the person making that accusation.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:14 PM

I think the definitive information on Joe the Plumber was presented on Saturday Night Live. The impersonators have been so good during this campaign, that's I'm starting to forget what was said by the candidates, and what by Saturday Night Live.
I'm ready to vote for Tina Fey.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

If you are referring to ME as making that accusation, Sorry you feel like that. If you want to call me an elitist fine. If you want to work hard to get a candidate elected, fine, but my approach is to not hang my success and future on the relative accomplishments or promises of any political candidate. I am a believer in making your own breaks.
I am sympathetic to anyone who has healthcare issues. The point I was trying to make ans still am trying to make is the concept of "Let's share the wealth, " is simply one person wanting something I worked hard to get and feeling like they are "owed it;" simply because I have it and they don't.

As an aside, I will, however, vow that if Mr. Obama is elected president, I will give him my full support, and never, never be disrespectful to him. He will be my president. I was raised to respect my president. Sounds hokey, huh? just another middle America quirky belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 10:33 PM

They're taking the hard earned money of those of us who make less than $250,000, too. We work hard and don't expect a handout. We just want the system not to be stacked against us, as it is now. When we pay our taxes to our government (and we pay plenty), we want that money to be used in a way that benefits us as well as the people at the top. Right now, it's mostly going to benefit the people at the top.

What we want is for the redistribution of wealth that's been going on for the last eight year and more, in which our hard earned tax money is going to make other people richer at our expense, to stop. We want the system to work for us, too.

We're not whining when we express dissatisfaction at the way things are set up now. To say that we are is an insult based on ignorance of what other people are experiencing. Especially the implied assumption that people like us aren't also working hard, and that we expect a handout. That kind of condescension is what I'm talking about when I use the word "elitist". And the shoe does appear to fit, I'm sorry to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:00 PM

mg, you said "I doubt that he deliberately created a fiction. A whole lot of people can't figure out tax stuff and I bet he is one of them." Well watching him yesterday spouting off about issues other than taxes he looked as out of touch and misinformed as lots of other people. I am not always myself. But I believe he did create a fiction on purpose, and watching him yesteday, I think he was damn well enjoying himself....until later in the day when the negative stuff came out. I have no sympathy for him for acting informed, but acutally not being. I have no sympathy for him for the damage that this may do to him in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:17 PM

"He will be my president. I was raised to respect my president. Sounds hokey, huh? just another middle America quirky belief. "

There is a HUGE difference between respect and blind faith, and that is where the line gets blurred for some people. EVERY president is my president, but they are also MY servant as they are elected to SERVE the population.   I will question Obama just as hard as any other president.

Question authority - another quirky American belief - left, center or middle America.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:25 PM

From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

No one looks good in this one, mg. Joe the Plumber for whatever reason told a fib to Obama and it was caught on tape.

But Sinsull, Dear Sinsull..Didn't you know 'fibbing' is held in high esteem in this country....and honored during election campaigns???

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:33 PM

It is every "Real American's" duty to bitch, whine, moan and demand that the US government do something about how unfair their favorite retailer and largest importer, Walmart is, how US Jobs are going offshore and how much gas their foreign made SUV burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM

Poppagator hit the nail on the head and smacked it flush.
"Joe is typical of a large number of right-leaning American voters who have been regularly voting against their own economic interests for a number of interrelated reasons encouraged by the neoconservative propaganda machine".

Here's a guy who makes 40K a year, yet he's upset about Obama taxing guys making 250K?
Here's a guy who had a lien put on his house because he couldn't pay medical bills?
In many ways, this guy typifies the Blue Collar Republican who has been brain-washed by talk radio and W's patriotic scare tactics, who would benefit by nothing MORE than Obama's tax cuts, and a national health care program. If I were Obama, I would turn this Joe Plumber affair around and point out every way in which he would actually be helping him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:57 PM

From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM

In many ways, this guy typifies the Blue Collar Republican who has been brain-washed by talk radio and W's patriotic scare tactics, who would benefit by nothing MORE than Obama's tax cuts,

Obama's tax 'CUTS'?????????????????????????????????????????????

In many ways, this guy (EJ),has been brain-washed by talk radio and the news media.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:06 AM

Obama's plan will cut my taxes. A lot more than McCain's plan will. And our business won't have to pay capital gains taxes. And our business will get a 50% tax credit for providing our employees (that's the two of us) with health care benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:47 AM

You should read Wikipedia on the two names - and the discussion pages - as there is a bunfight on about whether this guy - under either name - is 'notable'. Lots of 'verified links' too...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:25 AM

can someone please provide some direct quotes about how he mentioned the 250,000.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/15/1550438.aspx

I have been googling for some time and can't find anywhere he said he would net 250K, only that the proposed company could bring in 250K. I personally would not think, in a spontaneous, brief interview as opposed say to a presidential debate..that he was insisting that was net. If I heard someone wanted a plumbing business that brought in 250K I would think..is that after trucks and insurance and salaries and rent and unused inventory etc....

So could someone please say exactly what he said and did he ever specifically say net vs. gross or are people just reading that into it?

Surely people must know because they sure seem to know what his motives and everything else are. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:30 AM

People can hear him saying it himself right here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:35 AM

I listened to what he said on youtube..not an exact quote but something like I am looking to buy a company that brings in about 250, 270 to 280 thousand a year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Does that say net? Profit? That he would pay 250K for it? I think in subsequent interviews he mentioned the boss wanting to retire..probably will now I would guess...people are freaking at the thought someone making 40K could buy a 250K business....people are starting businesses all the time. Do they not want people to be able to buy businesses? This could be like the son the boss never had and they could work something easily out..happens all the time.

I am disgusted and appalled by the way people are trying to bring this man down. Obama was fine with him I thought, but the smears against this man, that his child is of course going to be affected by, are ruthless.

I have read, someone please confirm, that the taxes he owes are Ohio state taxes, and not IRS. I have also read it was because of medical reasons. I have not read other than here that it was because he has an anti-tax philosophy and was a refusenik. COuld someone please confirm if he has refused to pay taxes, or if he is in arrears for other reason, such as a divorce, expenses with his son, health reasons or what. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:35 AM

If the company didn't net more than $250,000, the owner would not have his taxes raised under Obama's plan. The reason Mr. the Plumber used the figure of more than $250,000 net was to show that he would be hurt by Obama's plan. He doesn't use the word, "net". He uses the word, "makes". The money that is "made" by a company is its net profits.

A company doesn't "make money", for instance, if it loses money, even if it takes in a lot of money, but all of it goes back out as expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:40 AM

How do you know his reason? I saw the youtube and have seen various things on TV and I don't know his reason. What do you know that I don't? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:48 AM

He said that Obama's tax plan would raise his taxes. He said it himself. Since the business isn't making more than $250,000, he was lying when he said that it is. Now what reason would he have for telling that particular lie if it wasn't to show that he would be hurt by Obama's tax plan?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:09 AM

I doubt it is a lie. He could be financially deluded. He could be financially ignorant, as are many small-business people.   As are many tradeswomen who have perfected their work skills but often have no business savy at all. I read some Dun and Bradstreet quote that mentioned $500K gross. I don't know. I don't say that people are lying unless I know. I don't say I know what they are thinking unless I know. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:28 AM

Obama will have to raise taxes, to even begin to afford his programs. and, if you aren't smart enough to see this very obvious fact, then you'll probably be eagerly awaiting to cast your vote for him, and no amount of common sense will even phase you. Even during the last debate, in a quick clip, he is caught on camera, saying, 'Well I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes'... or something to that effect, its there. It's when the camera is breaking away, and he is shifting positions in his chair...not that it means anything to anybody. Voters for Obama are doing it out of emotional optimism. Voters for McCain arejust trying to stay with what they have gotten use to, and Obama poses too much of a threat to their 'acquired comfort zone'.

Oh well, if it wasn't for these two, the news would have to go back to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears. Thank you, George Bush, for lying to us, and being the kind of guy that just let the country fall apart...you could have done better, but you just fell apart instead of doing what your conscience knew to do right.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:21 AM

Actually, Sanity-Clause, the sad thing is W really couldn't have done much better. He just doesn't have it in him. He is the picture of a guy who is in way over his head...
Sort of like you in this argument. Here's a comparison of the McCain and Obama tax plans as they stand

Democrats are for Big Government, right? Check the growth of the government under George W
Republicans are for fiscal responsibility, right? That's a laugh.

Yeah Barack said he should pay more taxes, and he's right. Just like John McCain should pay more taxes, just like your hero on the Excellence in Broadcasting network should pay more taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:26 AM

If Joe the Plumber has no business savvy, I think it's a bit of a stretch to believe that he is seriously thinking about buying a business that makes more than $250,000 a year. The man is a fraud, and he got caught. And he's been milking his 15 minutes of fame for all he could get out of it. He doesn't need our sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:28 AM

Obama said he's going to raise taxes. But not on people making less than $250,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

EJ, Dear ol' chap, you're jumping to conclusions. You are assuming I like McCain, and Rush...or I'm some kind of neo-con....lighten up, take a red, I'm neither. But I WILL call a spade a spade. It has become patently obvious that both these candidates are lying sacks of elephant shit....and the other is just too old..truth is, nobody worth a mayfly fart is running on the two main parties

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:34 AM

Those are harsh words, and when taken collectively with other words on blogs, editorials, etc., can very well contribute to a man being deprived of his livelihood. Why should America tremble? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM

My words are harsh? I'm not calling for him to be fired from his job. The only thing I'm calling for is for people to be aware that this man does not represent someone who would be hurt by Obama's tax plan, and that, in fact, he would be helped by Obama's tax plan. Not only now, but in the future because Obama's tax plan will help him save enough money to buy the business, if that's really what he wants to do.

I think it's Joe the Plumber's words that are harsh. He's trying to persuade people to vote against their own economic interests. For this reason, he doesn't deserve to be taken seriously by any voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:47 AM

If every employer was like jimmyt, it'd be a much better world. But too many of them aren't. They pay their employees as little as they can get away with, and take as much as they can for themselves, and that's called good business practice. And the difference between the amount creamed off by the people at the top and the amount paid to the people at the bottom gets wider and wider.
...................

I think people focussing their attention on the actual facts and non-facts about this Joe are aiming well off target. No doubt there are some cases where what he was on about does apply - cases where through hard work someone from a modest background is hoping to be able to take over a business which will make enough profit to be affected by taxes more than he'd prefer.

Perhaps Joe was bending the truth to make a more effective question, perhaps he was genuinely mistaken, but so what - he's not a politician up for election or up on a witness stand.

The fact that it sounds as if Joe wasn't actually strictly accurate is only relevant in so far as it means McCain's attempt to personalise that through invoking his name is absurd. And that's the phoniness on which people should be focussing their attention, together with arguing as to whether the tax issue involved is one where Obama's proposals are wrong. Which doesn't actually sound to be significantly the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:51 AM

"Those are harsh words, and when taken collectively with other words on blogs, editorials, etc., can very well contribute to a man being deprived of his livelihood. Why should America tremble? "

You are living in a fantasy world MG. No one is "harming" this guy, and the words are not harsh - they are stating facts. I guess if you cannot deal with facts you retreat into your own sense of reality.

The bottom line is, Joe the Plumber has some issues that he needs to work on. No one is bringing him down, most people are rooting for him to succeed as we would any small business person. In this case, Joe is still climbing uphill and the only roadblocks are the ones he creates for himself.

Wake up MG!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

I think focusing on the things about this man that are false is important. He is being used by both the McCain campaign as well as the corporate media in this country as a kind of icon of the hardworking people who they are suggesting will be victimized by Obama's tax plan. It's dishonest from the ground up. It's dishonest for the plumber guy to misrepresent how Obama's tax plan would effect him. It's dishonest of McCain to prop the plumber up as a kind of average everyman just trying to get ahead, who will be prevented from doing so by Obama's plan (if there really is a person who will be negatively impacted in this way, let them produce that person as their example). And it was dishonest for the media to build a mythos around this guy at the beginning, and going on an on about it for 24 hours a day.

After the debate in which McCain used this plumber guy's lies to score points against Obama, at least two members of the commentariat said that the real winner of the debate was Joe the Plumber. It wasn't until people stuck a pin in that bubble by finding out the truth about this guy that the media, at least, stopped helping McCain to use this guy to score points.

It's good that people are finding out on their own what the truth is. What Joe and McCain are doing is dishonest and manipulative.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

Mary--

What is your source for saying that Joe's tax problems were caused by medical conditions? It seems that somebody who is contemplating buying a business which brings in about $250,000--or less-- in a given year should be able to pay a tax bill for under $1,200 before he goes any further in his plans.

It is a tax bill owed to the state of Ohio. I have a copy of the docket sheet for his case, as I mentioned in another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

Also, as Carol says, "Joe" is by no means the mythical "everyman" who would be hurt by Obama's tax proposals--since that "everyman" would be helped, not hurt by those proposals.

According to the WSJ (17 Oct 2008) quoting Lee Smither, managing director of FMI Corp, a Raleigh, NC managment-consulting firm for construction contractors: "Mr Wurzelbacher would be nowhere close to the threshhold of $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for couples for Sen. Obama's proposed tax increase. To reach that level, Mr. Smither said, a mom-and-pop company like Newell would have to clear $5 million in annual sales."

The only "everyman" who would be hurt by Obama's proposals is one who owns a company with over $5 million in annual sales. How many of them are there, do you think?

Therefore, McCain's use of Joe as a model is fundamentally dishonest, as Carol notes.

The only question remaining is whether Joe is happy to be exploited by McCain for political purposes or not.   Evidence suggests that he is fine with it--since he also supports McCain on the Iraq war and other issues in the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

>The fact that it sounds as if Joe wasn't actually one strictly accurate is only relevant in so far as it makes McCain's attempt to personalise that through invoking his name is absurd. And that's the phoniness on which people should be focussing their attention.<

Bingo.

However, the story becomes more interesting, and McCain's level of culpability changes, if Joe (Sam) was deliberately planted in Obama's face. McCain was at least absurdly ill prepared and imprudent in milking a silly story, therefore exercising bad judgment, but if his campaign was involved in advance with this charade, then it's worse.

A deliberate plant doesn't seem to be the case (yet), so we are left with McCain's extraordinarily bad judgment and cynicism about the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM

"Say it ain't so Joe" meets "Play it again, Sam"...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM

The straight talker we had dreamed about has been twisted into a human pretzel in the course of this election.

(Not an award-worthy metaphor, I know, but it serves the purpose.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

So that he could get a dum ass liar to say something stupid that McCain would pick up and hammer on incessantly at a debate and then be caught up for the bullshit and shown to be incompetent and thereby lose the election. Obama is cunning.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

Ron Davies...
from USA Today
"He also had to settle a lien for $1,261.37 that was placed in July 2007 by a local hospital for outstanding bills. It was lifted last October after the debt was satisfied."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:59 PM

Thanks, LEJ. The more facts the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

Folks, this is an example of how partisanship just takes away from the real issue. There is no need to demonize this guy, but remember that it wasn't the Obama campaign that decided to make him an issue. If he is feeling put upon, he should thank McCain. McCain is a veteran of national media, and hence he should have known full well that by his raising this guy's profile, he would be subject to incredible scrutiny. That should have kicked in his better judgement, and caused him to vet the guy before using him as an example. But arrogance, self righteous indigation, and a sense of entitlement to the Presidency, cause him to shoot off at the lip. To me, this (like the Palin choice) is a direct reflection on this man's fitness for this office. He operates from a place that causes him to act without thinking. Not an admirable trait for one with the football.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:15 PM

IInteresting that the lien was placed by a local hospital. Bloomberg said "back taxes". So the phrase "back taxes" can be misleading, it appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

oops mine of 01:20 PM above was in response to a deleted post. I'm not really crazy. Well, maybe I am but not because of that exchange.

That'll teach you not to respond to guests.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Screw it. Bring back Josephine the Plumber. Jane withers was both more convincing and more entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:06 PM

Folks, this is an example of how partisanship just takes away from the real issue.

Absolutely correct!!!...and that includes the real issues, being avoided, and us being distracted from altogether...stuff a lot of you apparently, are altogether unaware of!! It's about time that these two parties start UNDOING the political and financial logjams and messes they brought upon us all. Some of the 'attachments' to Homeland Security brought about by 'Executive Orders' would be a great start! Anybody even addressing this?....No!...They have got us worked up about, Sarah, Joe, troopers, and general crap on the level of Britney Spears, and Paris Hilton!! They hope to keep you all as small minded as possible...and the proof of that, is in the contents of this and several other threads...emotionally charged nonsense!! mountains out of molehills, and while we stoop over to examine that molehill, we get kicked in the ass for not paying attention to the traitors who tell us, 'Look over here'..'Oh, oh, now look over there'
The main hole they have got you taking a close look into, actually doesn't have anything to do with moles!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

He still owes back taxes, and there's a lien on his property for that. If there was also a lien for medical bills, that's a separate thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

The real issue, in this particular case, is Obama's tax plan. Which some of us have actually been addressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

CarolC, That is JUST ONE of the 'Hey, look over heres' I was referring to....though, it is still one of the bigger ones, so..I guess you got it half right. there are things hidden, in which the present administration brought in, that is a very real and present danger to us all, and our way of life. Those powers, in the hands of any president, with extreme plans, are beyond your wildest imaginations, of evil.

Have a great, and fun day!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM

Good gawd, what are they doing on college campuses these days:

Joe the Plumber has gone from a media star to possible political candidate.

The Massachusetts Alliance of College Republicans launched a Web site yesterday urging "Joe" - whose real name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher - to run for Congress in 2010 against Democratic Ohio Rep. Marcy Kaptur.

"Washington, D.C., is broken and it needs to be fixed. Joe Wurzelbacher has a real-world perspective and the right attitude to clean up the mess on Capitol Hill," said Trevor Lair, chairman of the alliance.

from the San Francisco Chronicle:

And as for that unscripted moment that ended up on Fox News, the one at a rally where he questioned Sen. Barack Obama about the American Dream - and whether he'd have to pay higher taxes under Obama's plan?

Seems Joe, who is actually Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, told the conservative Web site familysecuritymatters.org that catching the Democratic presidential candidate off guard "was actually my intent."

...he owes Ohio about $1,200 in personal income taxes, according to the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas records. And there's a 2007 civil filing that shows a record for a $1,200 owed to a creditor, St. Charles Mercy Hospital.

So Wurzelbacher has an active lien on his property filed in January 2007, records from the Ohio Department of Taxation show.

AND, here's a bit more on the facts, esp. the "spread the wealth around" remark in context, from CNN:

click here.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

I don't think the issue is the tax issue at all. I am sure he can adapt to whatever the tax code is at the time. He has his facts wrong I am sure..as do most people, even tax experts, when discussing taxes on the cuff.

I think the issue is whether we as a people, like we the people, have the right to collectively try to destroy this man without enough evidence that he needs to be destroyed..and some people do need to be put down, no doubt about it. Reading the comments here and stuff in blogs and editorials is painful. There are probably hardworking men and women in your communities with no license, expired licenses, trying to meet license requirements that vary from block to block as seems to be the case in Ohio..and here we sit trying to crucify him.

I talked to my "plumber" this morning at McDonald's. He said the poor guy is being treated unfairly and he himself is an apprentice and jumping through the hoops is daunting. I hope the union he had signed some sort of apprenticeship request will assist him. It doesn't sound likely but maybe they will.

We do not know, at least I don't, whether this guy is an out and out fraud, which is what he is being called, I believe on this list but it could be elsewhere, or he is an angel of mercy operating legally in the townships he can operate in, helping elderly widows unthaw their pipes in the frozen Ohio winters for half the price of someone with more certifications. I don't know. But unless he is actually hurting someone by working 12 or whatever hour days, I say don't hurt him, and his son, and this could affect his custody arrangement.

I think this is like the chickens in the chicken coop finding a weakness in another chicken and pecking them to death. It is a test of decenty, not someone screwed up over the tax code. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM

But who is "trying to destroy" him? Any significant damage would come from media attention which has been focussed on him by McCain's arbitrary and somewhat irresponsible decision to use him as a weapopn for attacking Obama. That media attention may have had the effect of making the tax authorities and the hospital more likely to pursue him, and drawing attention to his lack of professional plumbing qualifications. And I can imagination that stuff like that might even have an impact on other thigs, such as custody arrangements.

But that's not because of any kind of mobbing, or because of silly stuff on a thread here or elsewhere in the Internet. The media have their own priorities, and their own nasty ways, and McCain knows that very well, and chose to disregard it, for political advantage.

However, given the way the world works I think it's likely that Joe will end up better off. He comes across as the kind of articulate bloke who could well make something out of his new-found celebrity status.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

Yeah!!..Maybe he can get in with Obama, Freddie and Fannie, and get some under the table money with ol' Barraky, enough to pay off his back taxes!! Then vote a bill to save the moose! and bring Sarah to face trial..even go to the supreme court to make legal citizens ineligible, to have jobs here in America...unless they support his ideas, and look the other way!!!..That should do it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:29 PM

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

He comes across as the kind of articulate bloke who could well make something out of his new-found celebrity status....

...just like Obama!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

Or just get on TV chat shows and pseudo-reality shows and such like. There'll be agents who know how to exploit this kind of "celebrity", to make money for their clients and themselves, and you can bet they'll be in touch.

If he's on for that, if the media storm starts to die down, a very effective move might be for him to announce that having thought it over he now thinks Obama is the right man... He'd be right up in the headlines again.

After all the chances are that Obama is going to win, and he might want his plumbing fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM

CNN news today said the public is already really, really tired of the "Joe the plumber" phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM

Nobody is trying to "destroy" Joe the "plumber." By his own admission, he wanted to confront Obama and "catch him off guard." The ploy failed when Obama gave him—and the whole country—a straight and reasonable answer to the question he posed.

What is really at issue here is that McCain is lying through his pearly-white dentures about what Obama actually said. He's telling the Big Lie, and knowingly misrepresenting Obama's tax policy in a desparate effort to deceive the voters.

And does the self-proclaimed "maverick" really want to see change in Washington. D. C.? Well, I think he showed his true colors with his harping on the Joe the plumber gimmick and endlessly repeating the same lie. Trying to deceive the voters has been the main focus of the Bush administration for the past eight years. McCain's just more of the same.

But then, it's beginning to look like that's all he's got.

That is what's going on here!

Let's just hope that Joe, the real plumber, is too smart to fall for this.

Don Firth

P. S. I don't see how one can say that Joe the unlicensed plumber is being "destroyed" if some people are asking him (God help us!!) to run for political office.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:03 PM

Well, I can't speak for anyone else about what they are doing with respect to this plumber, but anyone who looks at my posts in this thread can see that my criticism of Joe the Plumber has been about his question about Obama's tax plan. I don't really give a flying fuck about any other aspect of his life. I only care about how he was misrepresenting his own circumstances and lying about the effect that Obama's tax plan would have on him. That is in no way an effort to "destroy" him.

I would suggest that anyone who is trying to say that my posts have been about "destroying" Joe the Plumber is grandstanding, and is also seriously confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:01 PM

In the meantime, McCain is still spreading the lies:

"The response from Senator Obama and his campaign yesterday was to attack Joe," Mr. McCain said. "People are digging through his personal life, and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house. He didn't ask for Senator Obama to come to his house. He wasn't recruited or prompted by our campaign. He just asked a question. And Americans ought to be able to ask Senator Obama tough questions without being smeared and targeted with political attacks."

1) Obama didn't come to his house
2) McCain brought on the news hounds
3) Lots of people have asked Obama questions and never been smeared

McCain/Palin are doing ALL of the smearing!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:30 PM

"McCain/Palin are doing ALL of the smearing!"

ALL???????

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:37 PM

QUOTE
"McCain/Palin are doing ALL of the smearing!"

ALL???????
UNQUOTE

Well, there are some on Mudcat too, to be fair... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:42 PM

There is???...I got so much smear on me, it looks like jungle camo!...
..and actually, I've been polite!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

"Yeah!!..Maybe he can get in with Obama, Freddie and Fannie, and get some under the table money with ol' Barraky, enough to pay off his back taxes!! Then vote a bill to save the moose! and bring Sarah to face trial..even go to the supreme court to make legal citizens ineligible, to have jobs here in America...unless they support his ideas, and look the other way!!!..That should do it!! "

Slander is us. Or at least some of us

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:29 AM

Ahh, finally! The tag team..actually we're missing a couple more.

The above comment that you posted of mine, was satire, ok??..Calm down. It was meant to point out the pre-occupation with smaller non-issues, at this critical time in our history as a nation.
Let's be small!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:02 AM

The problem is you can't just take out one man, especially when he is so iconic. You can shut him and his boss down for compliance for something..OSHA, zoning, taxes, certifications. Then you are more or less obliged, or perhaps you smell blood in the water, to go after more and more struggling businesses, in a time where we might need every hand on deck that we can keep.

Now is not the time to destroy people, and yes, that is what many people are instinctively doing. One thing I think we can do is let the union and the certifying board know that we are looking at fairness in this, and it is already happening of course. Read the news. He can probably make some sort of hay out of this, but there are a lot of people in his situation, right in the middle of the country, with ethnic-sounding names and strong backs. People who used to be called the salt of the earth and the backbone of America. And instead of supporting them we are looking for their old traffic tickets.

One thing that needs to be done is a nationwide basic certification for many trades and professions. It keeps skills from being able to travel to where there is a need, like Katrina perhaps. Then states could add specific endorsements for their own unique situations, like subzero welding or whatever. Needed for teaching, nursing, doctors, lawyers, all sorts of building trades. Basic universal plus state addons. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

Who in this thread is trying to destroy Joe the Plumber?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:26 AM

Actually, there is something about jimmyT's post that I think needs picking up. I learned it during the period that my late wife was breathing impaired. She later died from her emphysema, plus a chest infection, plus the incompetence of Medway Maritime hospital.

But for years she managed her breathing problems well, and worked.

If she had caught a respiratory infection from even a commuter - and heaven forfend that she should risk infection from a health professional (a dentist, say) who was supposed to be treating her, that would have made her very ill and could have killed her.

People like jimmyT, who work with "a runny nose" and twist their employees arms to work when they too are infectious are possible killers. Don't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM

Well, well, well...

Seems that Joe the UnPlumber is now angry that he continues to recieve so much media attention???

Guess it wouldn't occur to him that if he'd quit accepting their invitations for interviews that his 15 minutes of fame, and the attention, would fade away...

I'm beginning to understand just how Joe couldn'r even figure out how to get thru his apprenticeship to be a real plumber...

(But, Bobert, word on the street is that McCain, should his boys steal the election, is going to offer Joe the UnPlumber a cabinet position... What do you think about that???)

Well, yeah, given his VP pick, I can see that...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM

The one who really deserves our sympathy is the poor plumber whose business name really is Joe The Plumber. His phone has been ringing off the hook with everything from requests for interviews to death threats 24/7. Imagine how much business he is losing through lack of sleep and busy signals that his customers are getting.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:55 AM

"Joe Martinez, a plumber in Colorado, is featured in "robo-calls'' in Colorado pitching for the Democrat's tax plans, the Huffington Post reports.

Unlike Republican John McCain's Joe the Plumber, the one featured in the final debate on the question of "spreading the wealth around,'' and unlike McCain's robo-calls, which link Obama to the "washed up'' terrorist Bill Ayers, the Obama sponsored plumber-starring robo-calls are talking about issues.

The HuffPost reports that a spokesman for the Colorado Democratic Party confirms a rough script that goes something like this:

"During this week's debate, Barack Obama talked about cutting taxes for middle class families like mine, lowering health care costs for everyone and bringing the change we need in Washington. John McCain ignored the issues and used the debate to launch false attacks against Barack Obama.

" In fact, McCain - for the third debate in a row - didn't even say the words 'middle class'. So, take it from Joe the plumber, if you want a president who will put middle class families first - join me in voting for Barack Obama. Paid for by the Colorado Democratic Party.''"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

For me, one of the biggest issues of this campaign is health care. I believe Obama will do his best to push through a reform of our health care system, which right now works only for those who are either healthy or who are able to get jobs with companies big enough to be able to offer an affordable (well, relatively affordable) health care plan that won't ditch you if you get sick by raising your rates beyond what you could realistically pay. I still don't get how McCain's proposal is going to help anyone...'splain it to me please? He's going to tax health care benefits, and give folks a $5,000 credit towards buying health care? If you've got any kind of preexisting condition $5,000 is a drop in the bucket.

'Compassionate Conservatism' just won't address huge social issues like the health care crisis in our country. People should not be put in the position of having to beg their doctor or dentist to give them a break on their treatments so they won't have to choose between putting food on the table or getting medical attention. That only works in a very, very limited number of individual cases. We need a system where all of us can access medical care affordably and with dignity. Other countries in the developed world have that. Why can't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM

McCain really has rather a nerve to try to blame his opponents for "People are digging through his personal life, and he has TV crews camped out in front of his house." That is entirely McCain's doing, when he repeatedly dragged this man into the limelight, as a political stunt.

Without that Joe would have been just one among thousands of people who have asked the candidates questions - it's not as if he had tripped Obama up into making some gaffe. Just a straightforward polite question and a straightforward polite answer. Big deal. Not like Quayle's "potatoe" moment, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

Joe the fraud and McCain's crazy idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

If I understand McCain's health care program correctly, it seems to me that there are a couple of simple and glaringly obvious problems with it.   He says he'll give people a $5,000 tax credit when they buy health insurance.

Well, that's very nice. But—

First, you have to have enough money to ante up for the health insurance in the first place. If you can't afford to do that, you don't get the $5,000 tax credit. And second, it's not as if he's going to send you a check for $5,000. You just get a $5,000 credit on your income tax. In short, if you buy health insurance, you can deduct up to $5,000. I vaguely remember that you are already allowed to deduct health insurance premiums from your income tax.

So what's THIS all about?

If I don't understand McCain's health care program correctly, can someone please enlighten me better than McCain himself has?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

Be fair, McCain very likely doesn't understand that stuff either. Taxes are complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

I have had not had health insurance coverage most of my life.

When I was in college, I was covered under my mother's plan with her employer.
From about 1985 to 1990 I was covered under a plan that paid for some health care with my employer (no dental or vision).
From 2007 to present I have some health care coverage that includes some dental with my employer (no vision coverage).

The rest of the time, I postponed care because I could not afford it and when emergencies came up, had to go in debt on credit cards and home equity to pay for it.

The difficulty in getting health care in this country is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

Sorry to get on a rant, but it is about time that you are at least made aware of a different way of thinking than Iever see here in this community os supposedly "liberal thinkers."

jimmyt, given the same set of circumstances, namely, the wherewithal to be able to practice such husbandry in your practice and environs, I think a lot of Mudcatters would do the same thing.

The state of health services availability to all in this nation is deplorable. And now McCain wants to tax those who get it through work. Let's make sure everyone is miserable this way instead of making the insurance companies miserable by taking the "insurance" out of "health insurance." Why are these politicians plans all looking at pouring money down the rat-hole of for-profit insurance companies that pay their investors first then spread the rest out for customers? And isn't it interesting, that after money is paid to insurance companies, the tax credit is given by the federal goverment, acting like a major subsidy to those same private for-profit insurers. Nationalized or a single-payer system would be a much better use of all of this money. But insurance companies are insidiously woven into every corner of politics, so I won't hold my breath.

Amazing how in this time of financial market upheaval the health insurance folks seem to be off on their own protected island. Talk about contributors to the current problems and you need to include those guys as well.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM

Excellent point, SRS. I remember, whenever we would drive through Hartford CT, seeing huge blocks of massive multi-storied buildings, one to a block, owned by one or another insurance company. The magnitude is staggering. BIG business.

Don Firth, that's me wondering, too. How in the aitch, if one doesn't have the income to purchase health insurance in the first place, woudl the tax credit do anything to help? It's not as if most people would have it in savings, etc.

We need single-payer, universal healthcare. It is shameful and really fucked up that we do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:23 PM

'Let's make sure everyone is miserable this way instead of making the insurance companies miserable by taking the "insurance" out of "health insurance."'

BRAVO!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:40 PM

Another thing I think ought to be pointed out on the subject of availability of health care. It's really great that some health care practitioners and dental care practitioners are willing to help some people out if they're in dire need. That's great. But nobody wants to be in a position to have to accept (and perhaps even beg for) charity in order to get their health care needs met. And it isn't possible for anyone to get all of their health and dental care needs met by having generous doctors and dentists who will do the work for free.

Anyone with any respect at all for human dignity would not expect people to have to live their whole lives under such circumstances. And it doesn't matter how hard someone works, if no insurance company is willing to cover them (or will only do so for a small fortune, and even then won't cover any pre-existing conditions), they're just shit out of luck. There's nothing they can do to fix that problem on their own.

Add to all of that the number of people with very good insurance who are being dropped by their insurance carriers the moment they get sick, or whose carriers refuse to provide needed treatment, and only a heartless person would say the country is better off with the system we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

I have not read any of their website, yet, but I have noticed their ads, so decided to have a look: American Medical Association's Voice for the Uninsured.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

McCain's comment on that in the third debate was:

"Sen. Obama wants to set up health care bureaucracies, take over the health care of America through -- as he said, his object is a single payer system. If you like that, you'll love Canada and England."

Clearly he thought that last bit was a clincher.

Well, I don't know about Canada. But you'd have a job finding any patients in England who would be tempted for a second by the existing American system, even with the modifications McCain is proposing. And that includes the Conservatives.

Yes, I know you've got some good hospitals and some state of the art medicine. But that's not much use if you can't get into those hospitals or gain access to that state of the art medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

Speaking of which, when I was counseling more actively, very rarely was financial issues, not an issue, within the family, and often a topic of marital discord. Here a couple would be facing a personal crisis in their home, and lives, so they go to a marriage and family counselor, who was going to stick them with a bill, that they could not afford, and string them out for months, with little or no positive results. At least this is the way it is, within the profession.

Myself, I got into it for other, personal reasons, and my 'problem' is that I really DID care about these people, and their families. Cared so much, that the last person who ever gave me payment, was in 1989. I would just help, because I knew how to identify the problem, and worked avidly to solve it, instead of captitali$ing on it. When I heard of a family I thought I could help, I did so for free.

To me, it is shameful, that within the medical community, which is supposed to be saving lives, that it has been reduced to 'saving lives, keeping them alive so you can keep getting their payments'. ABSOLUTELY A SHAMEFUL DISGRACE!!

Fortunately, I've been a musician/writer/author/composer/sound engineer most of my life, as well. ...Helps relieve the stress, of knowing families are out their, in painful situations, and perhaps something I put together can detour some from personal disaster.

BTW, We just participated in a charity benefit, to raise money, food, clothes and transportation for those in need, which was a huge, better than expected success. I'd much prefer this, than making it a mandatory 'spread the wealth' nonsense.

Another aside, According to statistics, Bush' tax rebates, to stimulate the economy.....more than half, went to porno!!! Unfucking believable!..Oh well, share the wealth!?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

".....more than half, went to porno!!! Unfucking believable!"

Source, please. Some documentation to back up that claim?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Gladly..hold on

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:55 PM

well here's one..got more hold on


http://www.itnews.com.au/News/79785,us-rebate-cheques-spent-on-porn.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM

Another...but I'm looking for 'the big one'..its there..it blew me away

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/02/bush-porn/

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

Remember...McCain's definition of "Middle Class" is someone making less than $5,000,000. J the P is obviously a typical middle class stiff. Typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:33 PM

Interestion, GfS. But I just did a little research of my own.

This seems to come from "an independent market-research firm, AIMRCo (Adult Internet Market Research Company)," that makes the claim that ". . . many websites focused on adult or erotic material have experienced an upswing in sales in the recent weeks since checks have appeared in millions of Americans' mailboxes across the country . . . Jillian Fox of LSGmodels.com (nsfw) said that in a survey to its members, 'thirty two percent of respondents referenced the recent stimulus package as part of their decision to either become a new member, or renew an existing membership.'"

The editor of a business journal that, among other things, does research into the economics of the "adult entertainment" industry, makes the following observation:   "The strangest part of all of this is that I do not know a single adult internet professional who has heard of the Adult Internet Market Research Company, nor do I know any adult webmasters who've experienced what this company claims."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:42 PM

And even if the research is dodgy, which it rather sounds as if it is, there's nothing in that story about "more than half".

An updated version of "if you give them a bathtub they use it to keep coal in"...?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:46 PM

And, of course, this makes the leap of logic that the two items are related.   Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (a fallacy without further evidence).   Q.E.D.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

I first heard it on CNN, and Fox, I think..just dig around, it's there

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:12 PM

Well, Well, Well. So Mr. Richard Bridge found the chink in my armor by working with a "runny Nose and "
Twisting my Employees" arms to do so too." Glad you got it all figured out, buddy. First of all I NEVER ask my employees to work if they are sick. Never, got it? never. Do they come in when they are not feeling well? yes! they do. Regularly. Do I work likewise? YES!!! I DO! It is what drives the economic bus! I am in a SERVICE business and my patients relty on me to be there for them! End of story. Do I contaminate them with unnecessary exposure? NO! I practice barrier techniques. I Wash my hands, I wear gloves and a mask. Is it feasable that someone could acquire a virus or bacteria from exposure in my office? Probably! at the front desk when they are checking out. GIVE ME A BREAK!   w

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM

As I started to say, every human can pass bacteria and virus to anyone during normal daily interaction in the marketplace. I am sorry your wife acquired an infexction from a healthcare facility but it cvould have just as easily been a store, resturant or bakery. If that is the best anyone can do to criticise me for how I go through life in my work, I think you are reaching pretty low for criticism. Does the patient have any obligation to not pass disease to me? SOrry, pretty lame premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:16 PM

Any relation to Joe the Grinder?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

Ok, all those people who think those of us who don't have medical insurance can get our medical needs met through the generosity of the medical profession - tell me how I'm going to get a doctor and hospital to provide for me the medical procedure that I need to get a large lipoma removed from behind one of my knees, that is affecting my mobility and making it painful to either sit or stand, and is continuing to grow. Just answer me that.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM

Our tax rebate when to pay taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:44 PM

*went to pay taxes

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 12:00 AM

"going to offer Joe the UnPlumber a cabinet position"

What, a plumb job?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:48 AM

CarolC, Explain your problem, and situation, and ask. Then ask if he knows anyone who can help you..talk to the doctor himself. Ask if he knows ANYONE who can help you...and be sincere! Many times, if he can't help you directly, he can refer you. Sometimes , depending what state you live in, there are places to get help....I can help you though it, if I'm familiar with that state's laws. Sometimes friends can direct you.
Good luck with it.
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:32 AM

Sorry, but that doesn't work at the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 05:45 AM

It also doesn't address all of the many other health issues I need medical attention for, and can't afford.

Charity is not a realistic way of addressing the matter of getting adequate health care to those who need it.

I find it ironic that people tell us on the one hand, we shouldn't expect a hand out, and then in the next breath they tell us that we should rely on charity for our health care needs.

I don't want a handout, and I don't want charity. I want my tax dollars to be put into a pool that will be used to buy group insurance that everyone can afford.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 07:27 AM

A lipoma probably wouldn't require hospitalization. It could probably be removed with some local anesthesia and can probably be performed in a doctor's office unless it is something much different than most lipomas. Does your health department not have a medical access clinic where doctors perform procedures for no or reduced fees? WOrth a check.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

"I find it ironic that people tell us on the one hand, we shouldn't expect a hand out, and then in the next breath they tell us that we should rely on charity for our health care needs."


               Yes, that's always bothered me, too. McCain makes a good point when he says the cost of healthcare is too high, but Obama is right, I think, when he says it should be universal.
               I wonder if there's any way in the world to get something through the US Congress that would work for real people.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 08:27 AM

I used the lipoma as one example. But as I said before, even if I could get that one thing fixed, it doesn't address the fairly large number of things that go wrong with a middle age body. There's the hip (different leg) that constantly feels like it's being dislocated and is in almost constant pain. And the inflammation in most of my other joints that causes me to suspect that I am developing rheumatoid arthritis, and the two little lumps, one on my shoulder, and one on my leg, just under the skin, that don't feel like lipomas. And the chest pains that show up from time to time. And then there's the annual checkups I should be getting that I'm not - pap smears, mammograms, heart health, bone density, etc.

It's not such a simple thing to tell people to go begging for their health care. And it's penny wise and pound foolish to have such a policy.

All of the other developed nations have found that when everyone has access to health care, everyone pays less for their health care, and everyone is healthier.

Our system (more accurately, a lack of a system) costs us more than the systems in all of the other developed countries, and it is much less effective in delivering care. That's just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM

Our system simply attracts the best and brightest to become our physicians, and if healthcare becomes socialised, the lack of incentive and general dilution of the applicant pool to medical schools will create a mediocrity in healthcare much like I have personally witnessed in Canada and the UK. I don't deny that we should have a plan to help the hard working folks that do not qualify for medicaid, but a universal plan is simply not realistic in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM

Obama's plan doesn't socialize medicine. It socializes insurance. There's a big difference. The doctors won't even notice the difference, except that they won't have to fight with the insurance companies any more to get approval for the procedures their patients need. And, they'll have a lot more patients, because there will be more people who have access to health care (almost fifty million of them).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

Someone (I forget who) asked:

And second, it's not as if he's going to send you a check for $5,000. You just get a $5,000 credit on your income tax. In short, if you buy health insurance, you can deduct up to $5,000.

And others echoed the thought.

You're confusing "credit" and "deduct", which are not the same. A credit is worth a lot more than a deduction. A deduction merely reduces the amount on which the tax is figured, at whatever rate applies. A credit is essentially giving you money to pay the resulting tax bill.

In effect, assuming your top tax bracket is 10%, a dollar of tax credit is worth as much as $10 of deductions.

While I'm not for McCain or his health proposal, it's only fair to be sure to understand what it really is.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:21 AM

Carol,
Prices will be regulated far more than they are now and doctors' incomes as well as hospitals' will drop. In the UK, if you have the money you can use a private doctor and the hospital of your choice. If you don't you take what you get.
It is nice to think that all doctors are dedicated. The truth is that not all are competent.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:33 AM

I haven't seen anything in Obama's plan that calls for price controls on health care. I've seen a lot of discussion of ways of reducing costs through increased efficiency, though.

By the way, I'm married to a Canadian, and anyone would be hard pressed to persuade either him or his family that the quality of care people get in Canada is any less good than the care they get here. And he's had the best insurance money can buy in this country, so he knows what is considered good here.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM

And by the way, under Obama's plan, anyone who has insurance now that they want to keep will be able to do so. The only thing that will be different is that there will be some insurance plans available to people like me who aren't a part of an employer based insurance pool. The insurance pool in our case will be a government based insurance pool. It's essentially the same thing as employer based insurance but the pool will be those of us who will be opting into the government based plan.

Under McCain's plan, a huge number of people who currently have insurance through their employer will lose it. And those who don't lose it will be paying taxes on any money their employers pay for their insurance coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:45 AM

Another by the way...

McCain's plan does call for actually reducing the fees that doctors and dentists charge. But he is saying that those price reductions will be the result of competition in the market. So any medical or dental health professionals who think they'll be better off under McCain's plan (assuming it does what he says it will), could be in for a surprise.

Personally, I don't think McCain's plan will accomplish anything except cause a lot of people to lose their insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

Why on earth must universal health care tend to produce "lack of incentive and general dilution of the applicant pool to medical schools"?

The National Health Service isn't perfect, and there are some doctors who aren't up to scratch and so forth, but I have absolutely no doubt that that is true under the American system. And there is no evidence I have ever seen which demonstrates that the quality of applicants to medical schools here is any lower than in America.

After all, we don't have a universal "socialised" legal system, and that doesn't mean there aren't some pretty incompetent lawyers about. As is being demonstrated daily, there some criminally incompetent bankers.

"Going private" doesn't in any way ensure that standards are high. The assumption that somehow "the free market" ensures high standards just does not stand up in practice. If we want to ensure high standards across the board we have to find other ways to achieve that, whatever system we adopt for paying for doctors, lawyers, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 10:05 AM

Ain't that the truth. I've had plenty of horrendously bad doctors (and dentists) here in the US, and a small few good ones, and also plenty of mediocre ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

ANd anyone who feels that the present crop of doctors represent "the best and brightest" isn't seeing the crowd of doctors I'm seeing. Most perseverant,most motivated, greediest---maybe. Better than what's out in England or Canada--I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

The US spends more of a percentage of its GNP on health care than any developed nation yet ranks:

17th in life expectancy
28th in infant mortality

Somethin' seriously wrong with our system...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM

Well, an insanely large percentage of the US healthcare dollar goes to non-medical expenses. The profit of the insurance company is part of the problem, but only a relatively small part.

The ridiculous amount of paperwork required when every different provider has a different set of rules, and requires a different set of forms to be filled out, has created an entire sub-industry, and a nationwide collection of associate-degree-level educational programs: "medical coding."

An abrupt changeover to a truly fair and efficient delivery system for healthcare ~ which no one in real-life politics is proposing ~ would eliminate thousands upon thousands of these "make-work" jobs and create widespread unemployment.

Which would be OK. even more than OK, if opportunities were available to put those same pople to work at more productive pursuits, like alternative energy technologies. But none of this can happen overnight, not after decades and decades of concerted effort to prop up the status quo, so that our esteemed insurance giants, oil companies, etc., etc., etc., can stay dumb and get fat rather than scramble to find new ways of doing business.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 09:58 AM

After all, we don't have a universal "socialised" legal system, and that doesn't mean there aren't some pretty incompetent lawyers about. As is being demonstrated daily, there some criminally incompetent bankers.

McGrath, You just described Washington!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM

Oh tell me we are not going after Cathy the Coder now. How is it a makework job? Right now, in the present "system" of chaos, it is very necessary work..trust me..it will put a hospital in very serious trouble if they can't keep up with the coding and billing. Revenues and therefore jobs will be lost. Don't ask me how I know. I am sure there are more efficient ways of doing things...Ross Perot could maybe tell us since that is how he made some of his money.

There needs to be great reform of medical care. I would start by assuming there is going to be a dual private and public system de facto for a while and start right now getting new trainees in the system, with free scholarships etc. if they work in the public or call it "new" system. Start right now funding public health clinics and nurses stationed in churches and community centers. Try to make the paperwork more efficient. Try to get the public to behave in healthy ways, especially when it comes to antisocial behavior such as drugs. Lots of things can be done, hopefully soon. But it is not Cathy's fault...no one said it was I know..just wanted to head this one off. I hope she is respected because one works in my office. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM

Joe the Plumber, Troopergate, Ayres, Palin's mannerisms...isn't their anything more important going on in this elections, than these distractions?

I know the are all subjects that came up(I've even commented on some of them), but don't you all think there are more critical issues that need far more scrutiny than these??

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:46 AM

Here's one to consider...

The number one cause of bankruptcy in the US is medical bills, even among those who have health insurance. But because of the new bankruptcy laws, it's now much harder for people to file for bankruptcy. Most people now end up in chapter 13, which doesn't help them get out from under their debt. So people like that end up defaulting on their debt, including their mortgages.

What this means is that our "system" for delivering health care is so inefficient that it and our counterproductive bankruptcy laws have helped to fuel our economic meltdown because people who can't pay their medical bills (or the credit cards they used to pay their medical bills), and who are not able to keep their homes through bankruptcy proceedings, end up walking away from their mortgages, or their homes are foreclosed on. And that doesn't just effect them. It effects the whole economy, as we can now see.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:56 AM

Alright, good point. The one really scary prospect is, putting the Government in control of virtually anything else. Their track record of 'managing anything is a sham!!..Too much corruption!
Carol, Have you had any success in trying to locate a doctor, to help you?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:57 AM

It is possible for us to hold our government to a higher standard instead of trashing it like we're doing now. We will get much better results if we do it that way than with the way we're doing things now.

I haven't even bothered to look for a doctor. My experience of doctors is that they like to get paid. I've never met one who was inclined to give away his or her services for free. Our second to last doctor, when we still had insurance, dropped all of his patients who had insurance, even, because the insurance companies weren't even paying him enough. Now he just does things people with a lot of disposable income are willing to pay cash for, like botox treatments and things like that.

Seems to me if doctors are so greedy that they aren't willing to accept a universal health care system (like what Kucinich supports) and get paid only a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year, they're not the sort of people who would be willing to take care of everyone in the country who hasn't got any insurance (almost fifty million) for free.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 06:53 AM

There seem to be some weird fantasies inthe Sates about universal health services hurting doctors. It just doesn't work that way. It would probably be as hard to find doctors in Britain who'd want the American system as it would be to find patients who felt that way.
..............................
Perhaps it's time Bob the Builder started getting some of the same attention as Joe the Plumber.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:33 AM

Bob the Builder!
Can we fix it?
Bob the Builder!
Yes we can!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 07:41 AM

Yer right, GfS...

Apparently the McCain camp has all but surrendered on talking about the "important stuff" and now it's this bogus "Joe the Plumber" that McCain has elevated to being the centerpiece of his campaign...

Fact is stranger than fiction...

BTW, the Dems don't seem too interested in Troopergate or Sarah Plain's mannerisms or you'd be seeing commercials about them...

Maybe that's why JtP got a promotion... The3 Repubs tried their level best to get the Dems to bite on Troopergate so they could do their "righteous indignation" thing but the Dems didn't bite... Maybe that is why McCain is so pissed off these days... He keeps thinking that he can trap Obama into saying something, you know, mean about him or his VP... Ain't worked...

I find it intweresting that Srah Palin is completely off limits... I mean, I understand that the Dems wouldn't want a male (ncluding Hillary..lol...) to put a butt whup on her but isn't there some lady Dem out there who could point out the fact that Ms. Sarah is nothin' but a loud mouthed moron??? Purdy??? Yeah... But fumber than a box of creek rocks...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 10:54 AM

And you guys accuse Republicans of character assassination.

How many bombings did Joe proudly plan?

Did he say "The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them."?

Did he say "God Damn America"?

Nope, You guys admire elite rich bombers and God Damners while condemning a hard working turd chaser trying to get ahead instead of pursuing government handouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM

Okay, Sawz...

How many bombs has Obama planed???

Fact: None

How many times has Obama said "God Damn America"???

Fact: None

Who here in Mudville says they admire with what Ayers did of what Rev. Wright said???

Fact: None, although I do understand the context of what Rev. Wright said...

You are so confused that you no longer, if you ever, capable of mounting one serious.sane argument... You should be ashamed of the slime you thorw with abosolutely no regard for the truth... I hope that Obam wins and that you are so pissed off that you leave the country... America has enough problems and losing yer delussional drybaby butt wouldn't hurt the country one bit...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

How many bombs has McCain dropped?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM

Not sure; had he not been shot down, he certainly would have dropped more bombs than he did. That was his everyday job back then, on a carrier off the coast of Vietnam.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 04:54 PM

"Oh tell me we are not going after Cathy the Coder now."

Jeez, mg, do you really feel that everyone is out to get working people? Is is so hard for you to realize that a person whose entire life has been lived in strained economic circumstances might be able to have an objective thought about the instrinsic value of a particular line of work?

I've had to earn my living, at times, by grinding away at tasks whose ultimate purpose was either against my pronicples, or simply pointless or impossible to discern. I understand only too well that this kind of situation can't be helped, but I don't think that sympathy for the working individual has to translate into blind acceptance of the job required of him/her by the corporation supplying the paycheck.

Recognizing that the huge amount of money and human energy going into efforts to create and manage redundant medical paperwork is NOT "going after" the individuals who find themselves in that line of work. Hell, I know that, when it comes to the job market, most people are only able to take whatever they can get.

Instead of getting all defensive on behalf of your friend Cathy, for whom I have every bit as much sympathy as you do, might it possible for you to give a moment's thought to how tragic it is that some of us have no choice but to spend our waking hours serving the needs of a system that may give us a paycheck with one hand, but picks our pocket and steals our dignity with the other hand?

I made a serious omission in that prior post about the horrendous waste and counterproductiveness of the current insurance-company-based health-payment system. Besides the unneccesary corporate profits, and besides the basic wastefulness of multiplying paperwork, there is the undeniable fact that insurance companies invest way too much of their income and of their human capital in the denial of claims filed by people who have been paying their premiums! Those are the folks we need to be crying for!

Now, if you come back boo-hooing to me about Al the Adjuster, who only denies medical care to dying children because The Boss gives him no chociue and he has to feed his family, well then, I just give up...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM

No problem. i will start another thread called Cathy the Coder and we can deliberate there. I am an omniest, as I said before. I am for everyone and all sides of every question. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

When people say they want the government to use their tax money in ways that benefit them, they're not asking for a handout. It's our money, and we have a right to say how we want our money used.

I notice the very same kinds of people who say that it's our money and the government should give it back to us are the ones who say that people don't have a right to tell the government how to use the money we give them.

If we give the government money to use in ways that will help us accomplish things that each person cannot accomplish on their own, that is when the government is doing what it's supposed to be doing. That's the whole point of government. If we give the government money and then we tell them what to do with it, we are doing exactly what we have a right to do as taxpayers. It's our money - it's our government - we own it, and we are its boss. We give the government money specifically for this purpose. We don't pay the government so that it can set up a private standing army, as it'd doing now, we don't pay the government to build an empire as it's been doing, we don't pay the government to crush other peoples' democracies, as it's been doing for decades. We pay the government to do for us what individually, people cannot do on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 08:48 PM

I am told by 4 cable news networks that Obama attacked this Joe the Plumber. They don't say allegedly, they say attacked but no mention of weapons or injuries.

If so I hope Joe is OK. Is there an address for us to send flowers?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: fumblefingers
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM

I guess if one will be the recipient of the wealth that Obama says he wants to spread around, then belittling Joe the Plumber seems reasonable. If one is part of the so-called mainstream media, then digging up dirt on the man asking the question in an attempt to destroy him is more important than the clearly socialist message that came from the annointed one.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:21 AM

Well Well Well. Joe the plumber is not a candidate Bobert. Anyway, how many of Joe's associates have planned bombings and said God Damn America?

"abosolutely no regard for the truth"

Who said "America is getting more like Haiti where 1% hold all the wealth."

I hear the arrogant Mr Obama condescendingly saying "A plumber is the guy he's fighting for".

Putting down a working man because he dares to call his plan of redistrubution of wealth socialist. Call out the truth squads, call the brown shirts. Don't let that man exercise his freedom of speech. It might hurt Obama's campaign.

Vote for him Bobert. Don't let me stop you. Vote several times through those minimum wage dope smokers from Acorn. You are going to get what you deserve. We will be like Haiti except 1% will really own all the wealth. The elitist 1% that knows what is best for all of us and is going to decide who gets what.

Who owns all the wealth in Cuba? Who owns all the wealth in North Korea? How does the voting work there?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM

forgot to post my name, again..sorry Joe....

From: CarolC
Date: 21 Oct 08 - 05:39 PM

'When people say they want the government to use their tax money in ways that benefit them,......
.....If we give the government money to use in ways that will help us accomplish things that each person cannot accomplish on their own, that is when the government is doing what it's supposed to be doing....'

Furthermore:
When that same government squanders, misuses and 'porks-up' some money embezzling bill, or piece of legislation, those assholes should be brought to trial and, if found guilty, should be thrown in the poky, for a long, needed vacation! When that same government, uses OUR money, to make policies, for corrupt political means, to unlawfully subvert our government, (us) to fund their activities, to destroy our form of government, a charge of treason seems appropriate!....This includes ALL elected 'officials' who violate their oath to uphold the constitution, the law, of OUR nation. If they want to take away OUR freedom, then taking away theirs seems fitting!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mg
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

I am done with Mudcat for at least several months. Maybe permanently. I have lost too much respect for too many people who think it is OK to slander someone and potentially cause him/her to lose his job. It is too serious. Goodbye. Some of you know how to find me. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM

Sorry about that mg, and I hope very much you change your mind.

I appreciate the way in you have reacted angrily about what you have seen as unfair treatment of this bloke. And I suspect that part of that may have been provoked by genuinely slanderous and snobbish stuff that you have come across elsewhere.

But I don't think that the comments on the Mudcat have in fact amounted to that. Some criticism, coloured by the current high octane emotions which seem to be running so freely in the Sates around this whole election, but targetted on Joe's evidently inaccurate statement of his own situation in framing that question to Obama.

But I can't see how that amounts to "slander". (I don't myself see any reason why a member of the public should have to stick to the strict personal facts in such a case - there was nothing impossible about the scenario he outlined of scene who might stand to lose in a change of taxation, it was just that he wasn't actually such a person. If it's a fault it's a pretty trivial one.)

If this Joe has lost his job, or potentially has lost his job, that is nothing to do with anything anybody here has written, and is entirely down to McCain's casual use of him as a political weapon, which focussed media and bureaucratic attention on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:06 AM

Joe the Plumber, if that's who he really was/is will be just fine... Word here in the holler is that McCain and his wife are in discussion with Joe's people about adopting him...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM

How many bombs has Obama planed???

Fact: None

How many times has Obama said "God Damn America"???

Fact: None

I agree 100% Bobert, nor did I imply he did.

Is this your version of a serious sane argument?

My point was that Obama's relationship with Ayres and Wright has been sanitized while anybody that dares voice an opinion against Obama is attacked.

Are you a member of Obama's truth squads?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:01 PM

I never will cease to be amazed that Mudcatters, when addressing a controversy, invariably present as evidence to support his or her pov information gathered from a liberal publication, television or radio network as proof. (See kat's post of "factual" information gleaned from The washington Post and MSNBC).

That makes as much sense as me offering information heard on the Rush Limbaugh radio program, or a quote from the Wall Street Journal or Evening Standard as evidence to support my point of view.

Ridiculous.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

All the guy did is ask a question. I'm confident Obama would love to retract his answer. The answer is what got Obama in trouble. Of course he didn't have a teleprompter so one must take that into consideration I guess.

So what do the liberals do? Why attack the plumber of course!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Obama is not in trouble, Doug. It is McCain who shot from the lip without a clue as to where it was going to land. Obama answered Joe, the "Plumber" sanely and thoughtfully. McCain picked up a dirty stick. If I may mix metaphors.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

The Washington Times or the Evening Standard would be perfectly reasonable sources for evidence. Rush Limbaugh I suspect rather less so.

When it comes to evidence, I often prefer to use versions of news stories from the Daily Telegraph rather than the Guardian, to avoid the assumption that there might be a "liberal" bias. (Though I am aware that in American terms the Daily Telegraph, supporting the UK Conservative Party as it does, might count as a bit left-wing at times in USA politics.)

Opinion pieces are not evidence. People tend to link to them, or post extracts from them, because they think they more clearly represent the point of view of the poster than anything they might write. They are very often wrong in this - first-person comments are often more persuasive.

................

I agree with Ebbie there - Obama seemed to deal with that question very well. If McCain or his scriptwriters had not decided to use it, I doubt if it would have been blown up into anything. I've often seen politicians, left and right, floored by unexpected questions, but this wasn't an example of that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 03:36 PM

As for the hoohah about Obama's comment in that converstiin with Joe about how "spreading the wealth" is good for business, that's hardly a new notion, or a particularly left-wing one. It's the kind of thing that many people across the whole political spectrum have said, because in economic terms it's pretty self-evident.

For example, Sir Francis Bacon, English author, courtier, & philosopher (1561 - 1626): "Money is like muck, not good except it be spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

I suspect Sir Francis' idea of spreading the wealth referred to commerce more than taxation. I think spreading the wealth through the means of commerce is a wonderful idea and it is a real stimulis to the economy. Spreading the wealth by increasing taxes to distrubute to others is counterproductive to the economy in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 06:23 PM

The important thing is to spread it. The mechanism for doing that is secondary.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:16 PM

You can spread some of yours over to me any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

Just so we are really clear on exactly what was said by Obama and JtP (this comes from a Militray Forum, not exactly a "liberal" media outlet):

Outside Toledo, Ohio, on Sunday, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was approached by plumber Joe Wurzelbacher, a big, bald man with a goatee who asked Obama if he believes in the American dream.

"I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes 250 to 280 thousand dollars a year," Wurzelbacher said. "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?"

Obama said, "First off, you would get a 50% tax credit so you'd get a tax cut for your healthcare costs….. if your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you'd go from 36 to 39%, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason why we're doing that is because 95% of small businesses make less than 250. So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut. And so what we're doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than 250 that that marginal amount above 250 – they're gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36% rate."

Responded Wurzelbacher, "the reason I ask you about the American dream, I mean I've worked hard. I'm a plumber. I work 10-12 hours a day and I'm buying this company and I'm going to continue working that way. I'm getting taxed more and more while fulfilling the American dream."

"Well," said Obama, "here's a way of thinking about it. How long have been a plumber?"

Wurzelbacher said 15 years.

Obama says, "Over the last 15 years, when you weren't making 250, you would have been given a tax cut from me, so you'd actually have more money, which means you would have saved more, which means you would have gotten to the point where you could build your small business quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of looking at it – I mean one way of looking at it is, now that you've become more successful through hard work – you don't want to be taxed as much."

"Exactly," Wurzelbacher said.

Obama continued, "But another way of looking at it is 95% of folks who are making less than 250, they may be working hard too, but they're being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what I'm doing is, put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making whatever, 60 or 70. Under my tax plan you would be keeping more of your paycheck, you'd be paying lower taxes, which means you would have saved…Now look, nobody likes high taxes."

"No," said Wurzelbacher.

"Of course not," said Obama. "But what's happened is that we end up – we've cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than 250. We haven't given a break to folks who make less, and as a consequence, the average wage and income for ordinary folks, the vast majority of Americans, has actually gone down over the last eight years. So all I want to do is – I've got a tax cut. The only thing that changes, is I'm gonna cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need and for the 5% of the folks who are doing very well - even though they've been working hard and I appreciate that – I just want to make sure they're paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts. Now, I respect the disagreement. I just want you to be clear – it's not that I want to punish your success – I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you – that they've got a chance at success too."

Wurzelbacher said it seemed as though Obama might support a flat tax.

Obama says, "you know, I would be open to it except here's the problem with a flat tax is that if you actually put a flat tax together, in order for it to work and replace all the revenue that we've got, you'd probably end up having to make it like about a 40% sales tax. I mean that's the value added, making it up. Now some people say 23 or 25, but in truth when you add up all the revenue that would need to be raised, you'd have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on. And I do believe for folks like me who have worked hard, but frankly also been lucky, I don't mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress that I just met over there who's things are slow and she can barely make the rent."

Obama said, "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody. If you've got a plumbing business, you're gonna be better off if you're gonna be better off if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody's so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

"But listen," Obama said, shaking Wurzelbacher's hand, "I respect what you do and I respect your question, and even if I don't get your vote, I'm still gonna be working hard on your behalf, because small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it."

"Guys I gotta get out of here and go prepare for the debate," Obama said, "but that was pretty good practice right there."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM

So which bit of that does Doug think Obama would wish to retract?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

DougR doesn't think. Let him listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, and some Fox tomorrow, and he'll get back to you. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:29 PM

Mc Grath,. the mechanism for spreading it is absolutely the issue!   There is no other issue! I normally don't disagree with you but this time, I have to say that there is no other issue in the picture than HOW the wealth is to be distributed!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: curmudgeon
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:07 PM

From each, according to his ability, to each, according to his needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 09:59 PM

So far as the economy is concerned the important thing is to ensure that the money is spent in a way that helps ensure that that the economy revives.

That could be achieved in a number of ways - one is that the government could take it, and pay it out directly, or it could achieve the same result through adjusting taxes. Or it could be done by people with money acting in ways that had the effect of distributing the money, maybe through philanthropy, maybe be by conducting their business in a different way.

And there could be other ways of achieving a similar result.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't important differences between all those methods. There are, and some are preferable to others. But in all cases the outcome would be that the money was be spread out, with the consequence that it would be more usefully applied.

In a way this is analogous to the assumption that society is best served by having power distributed rather than concentrated. That was considered to be a totally unacceptable idea until reletively recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:30 PM

McGrath: listen to Limbaugh regularly, do you?

What would you peace loving folks recommend be done to Joe the Plumber?
Hang him?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 10:58 PM

No need. He's hanged himself, with a series of blatantly false statements--starting with: "I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes $250, 000 to 280,000 a year".

Let's have just one iota of evidence that idea has any plausibility--from somebody who in 2004 made about $40,000/yr.--and still owes about $1,200 to Ohio.


And as I noted, from the WSJ earlier in the thread, the plumbing business in question would have to clear about $5 million/ yr. to be negatively affected by Obama's tax plan. And how much did it make last year--about $100,000?   Whatever it was, it wasn't exactly $5 million.

"I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year". Obama took the most charitable interpretation--that Joe meant $250,000 clear profit per year.
But the business only had revenue of $250,000 to $280,000--if that.
And therefore, as Obama said, would be helped, not hurt, by his tax plans.

"Joe" misrepresented himself to Obama--and the country.

And now he's been made an icon---to those who can't or won't think or do any research.

i.e. the usual suspects---amazingly enough, yet again supporters of GWB--and McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:02 PM

Who knows, Doug, if you took your nose out of the Arizona Republic--and read something worthwhile--like the WSJ reporting--even you might start to make sense.

Perhaps not, but it might be worth a try.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 11:18 PM

Spreading the 'wealth' is not a hard concept to understand actually, a no brainer.. You do it by trade(business and exchange) the word 'economy' is the RATE of the exchange of money. To hurt the 'economy', is to slow the rate of exchange. When money is changing hands quickly is called a good economy. To create money out of thin air, and increase the money supply, may step up the exchange of money..but the value of what that money is worth less than it was..therefore, more money is needed to cover the cost of labor or services exchanged for.....Just so we get our terms right

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:29 AM

I>listen to Limbaugh regularly, do you

No - that's why I said "I suspect", on the basis of what I have read about him, and from clips on YouTube.

Why should anything be done about Joe the Plumber?

He asked a reasonable question about an aspect of Obama's plans, and received a reasonable and respectful answer. He was a bit inaccurate in his account of his own circumstances, implying that the hypothetical case he was talking about was one that actually applied to himself, but that's not a big deal. He's not a politician or a journalist.

Unfortunately McCain picked up on it and rather shot his mouth off about it, evidently without having anyone check the facts - as a result of that Joe has found himself in the middle of a media feeding frenzy, which might injure him (or might conceivably benefit him)

If maybe Joe is now in trouble for unpaid tax or for doing work for which he wasn't qualified, that's a consequence of his only massaging of the facts, but more especially of McCain's directing attention to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

JtP, Dougie, is nothing more than an opportunist... He couldn't care less about the election... He's just out there to get as much outta his 15 minutes of fame as he can...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

Whatever it takes:

Obama Tweaks Tax Plan to Rebut McCain

ABC News

Facing criticism from John McCain that his tax plan constitutes "welfare," Barack Obama recently added a work requirement to one of his proposals.

"They started saying this was welfare," said Obama adviser Austan Goolsbee. "So, just so they would absolutely not be able to say that, we decided that for the last two percent we'll simply add a work requirement."

Goolsbee discussed the change to Obama's universal mortgage credit while debating McCain adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin at the Council on Foreign Relations on Tuesday.

The purpose of Obama's 10 percent universal mortgage credit is to aid taxpayers who do not itemize when filing taxes. The Obama campaign estimates that it would provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.

Goolsbee referred to the number of non-working Americans who would benefit from the original understanding of Obama's plan as an insignificant "sliver" when compared to the much larger number of working Americans who would benefit from Obama's plan.

Although the number of non-working beneficiaries would have been just a "sliver" under the original understanding of Obama's plan, Goolsbee said the Democratic nominee's economic team decided to add a work requirement to it in order to block McCain from being able to characterize any aspect of his plan as "welfare."

"When did this change? I'm just curious," an incredulous Holtz-Eakin asked Goolsbee.

"About two weeks ago," replied Goolsbee, adding that when the proposal was announced in September 2007, 98 percent of its benefits went to workers.

The work requirement on Obama's universal mortgage credit was never announced publicly, prompting Holtz-Eakin to suggest that it was just made up for purposes of the CFR debate.

"I think they just made it up," Holtz-Eakin told ABC News. "They will say anything in the moment. This is like trying to pin Jello to the wall."

During a Tuesday conference call with reporters, Holtz-Eakin mocked Goolsbee's claim that Obama could have changed his plan two weeks ago in response to McCain attacks that did not start until after Obama met with Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher nine days ago.

"What we saw today was just another example of the Obama campaign being willing to say potentially anything in order to avoid the tough questions of the moment," said Holtz-Eakin............

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

The Republicans are jumping on Obama's mortgage-credit proposal because they're worried that the MORTGAGEES slated to get a benefit MIGHT NOT BE WORKING!?!?!

Gimme a freakin' break. The chronically unemployed underclass that taxpayers are understandably reluctant to support does NOT include homeowners!

It's true, of course, that some home-owning citizens, in these hard times, might very well be currently and (hopefullly) temporarily unemployed, but they would never have been extended a mortgage loan ~ not even by the most predatory sub-prime lender ~ if they were not working and and earning some kind of income at the time.

People with mortgages, even those in danger of forclosure in the current crisis, are, by definition, WORKING AMERICANS!

(...which is why it should be no surprise that the GOP wants to denigrate them and deny them financial relief...)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

'"Joe" misrepresented himself to Obama--and the country.'



                   No he didn't. The news media tried to make it sound like something it wasn't, but Joe was pretty straight forward.


                     I think he's confused about the difference between gross and net profit, but he was just asking questions of Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:38 AM

It's kind of difficult to believe that someone who doesn't know the difference between gross and net, is working on buying a business that either grosses or nets more than $250,000. Sorry, that one doesn't pass the smell test. Hell, I suck at business, but even I know the difference.

I was listening to this disscussion about propaganda last night, and McCain's use of the fictional character he invented and named, "Joe the Plumber", is a classic form of propaganda. If McCain's agenda wasn't counter to the best interests of the majority of people whose votes he is trying to get, he wouldn't need to invent fictional characters like Joe the Plumber, and "Sarah the Reformer" (and John the Maverick). If his agenda wasn't contrary to the best interests of the majority of voters, he would be able to just run on his platform without the propaganda.

It's pretty amusing to see anyone compare Obama's positions to nailing jello on the wall, seeing as how McCain's positions change almost daily. That's another reason McCain has to use propaganda. He can't run on his platform, because it's constantly changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:59 AM

To say Joe the Plumber is fictional is propaganda.

Obama's tax policy is like jello. He changes it at will while arrogantly sneering at Joe like a typical elitist.

"A plumber.. is the guy he's fighting for" Evidently Obama thinks he is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:15 PM

Riginslinger alleged:

'"Joe" misrepresented himself to Obama--and the country.'

                   No he didn't. The news media tried to make it sound like something it wasn't, but Joe was pretty straight forward.

                     I think he's confused about the difference between gross and net profit, but he was just asking questions of Obama.

Think again, Riginslinger. He first represented that he was "preparing to buy" a plumbing business making a certain amount of money. Forget "gross" or "net"; it's false either way.

Then he upped the ante: He said he was buying (currently, by his words), such a business.

That last is clearly false, and the first one can only be saved from clear falsity by an extreme stretch of the word "preparing".

It's come out since, from the business's owner, that when he was hired there was some discussion that he might at some point be able to buy the business. Given his $40,000 income and his tax debt, "preparing" sounds to me like prevarication, and since good ole Joe has subsequently admitted that there is no current ability or likelihood or arrangement to buy the business, and since the owner denies such an arrangement, the second statement is an outright lie.

Now those misrepresentations are so blatant that they cannot even be glossed as slips of the tongue or inadvertent misstatements. He was making himself into a false hypothetical in order to discomfit Obama.

He deserves what he gets in public obloquy.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM

Joe the Plumber is a name that John McCain cooked up. They guy's name isn't "Joe the Plumber". Joe the Plumber is propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM

"It's kind of difficult to believe that someone who doesn't know the difference between gross and net, is working on buying a business that either grosses or nets more than $250,000."


             If Joe was looking at getting into the publishing business or opening a law office, if would be hard to believe he wouldn't know the difference between "gross" and "net" profit. But I work with blue collar construction people on a daily basis, and it wouldn't surprise me.
            Further, it wouldn't take a lot of business for a plumbing contractor to gross $250,000. Plumbing parts and fictures are really expensive, and if he wanted to do commercial buildings, he could gross that much on one job. Coming up with a profit at the end of it all is the hard part--almost immpossible in the current business climate.

            He was in his front yard tossing a football back and forth with his son when Obama's entourage came by his house. There's no way to make the case that he was a McCain plant.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

like a typical elitist. As in Cindy McCain who wore an outfit worth $300,00 to the RNC...but her husband is for the "little folks"...the ones who are hurting because of the economy, right? Like they can relate to us! Not! Oh, and forget "hockey mom" Sarah. How many hockey moms do you know who spend $150,000 at Saks Fifth Avenue and Neiman Marcus? She even spent $92.00 on a baby outfit! Elitist enough for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

He approached Obama. Obama did not approach him. In fact, it took some effort for him to get close enough to Obama to ask his question.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that if this guy had discussed the particulars of the business with his boss to the extent that he was making it look like he did (ie: an agreement that he was going to buy the business), the subject of gross and net would not have come up. Even if Joe himself hadn't brought it up, the owner of the business would have. And I also don't believe that Joe himself wouldn't have wanted to know how much the business made after expenses. Since Joe was saying that Obama's tax plan was going to hurt him after he bought that business, he knew that he was talking about profits after expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM

Obama never sneered at Joe, anyway. He was perfectly respectful of him, and said that even if Joe didn't vote for him, he would still be working on Joe's behalf. So that sneer comment is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

He was making himself into a false hypothetical Very possibly so, but so what? He wasn't on a witness stand on oath, he wasn't a journalist with a duty to tell the truth, or a politician with a similar duty (not always observed in either case, and rightly denounced when this turns out to be the case).

Why he may have told a few porkies is his own business. Maybe he was genuinely confused - not everyone keeps accurate figures about their income in their head. I never have more than a vague notion of my financial status, I rely on my wife to know that stuff, and she does.

More likely perhaps he was dreaming about what he'd like to do, or hoped he might be able to do in a few years. Or maybe he was just trying to make himself sound a bit more successful than he actually was, sort of vanity. Doesn't everyone do that on occasion? Nothing criminal or shameful in that.

Or perhaps he was indeed "making himself into a false hypothetical in order to discomfit Obama" - but there's no reason why Obama should have been "discomfited", and he clearly wasn't.

There are no doubt people in the situation Joe described - what difference does it make whether he was one of them or not so far as asking Obama the question? It might even be easier for Obama to answer the question in the form it was given than it would have been if it had been asked as a open hypothetical. Clearly he had no difficulty with it, anyway.

Sniping at this bloke is just a distraction, and it plays into the hands of the one person in all this who does deserve to be criticised, McCain; and it serves to let him off the hook.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 12:49 PM

I would have agreed that what Joe said or didn't say about himself isn't all that relevant had he not then gone on to make numerous appearances various talk shows and news programs. This guy was clearly selling himself on US television, and promoting a particular political viewpoint in the process. That makes what he said about his history relevant to the voters of this country. His "story" was giving him cache on the public stage, and if his story was false, that cache is an illusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

His story is not false. I can tell you from personal experience that people who work in various trades often think the owner(s) of the business make a great deal of money. Quite often, especially in economic conditions like we're experiencing now, the guy out in the field doing the work is making more than the owner.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:07 PM

John McCain also created the iconographic imagery that he is using in reference to Joe the Plumber. He refers to Joe the Plumber as a business man. Joe the Plumber is not a business man. He talks about this guy as if he were representative of the majority of voters. He is not representative of the majority of voters. He says Joe the Plumber is the engine of our economy. Joe the Plumber is not the engine of our economy. He doesn't own a business, and he has no employees. McCain keeps saying that Joe the Plumber would be hurt by Obama's tax plan. This is a total fiction. The guy McCain is calling Joe the Plumber is a classic example of the kind of person who would benefit from Obama's tax plan. McCain is using this guy he calls Joe the Plumber as a propaganda tool, because McCain can't get the majority of people to vote for him without resorting to the use of propaganda (or even with it, apparently).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:08 PM

I bet those people haven't made any agreements to buy the boss's business, though. If they had, they would know how much money the business nets.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

And there's always the possibility that the owner is losing his ass right now, and he's giving Joe a glowing report of how wonderful things are as the owner of a plumbing business. This is a pretty common practice in this industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM

Joe still lied when he said he's in the process of buying the business. Which makes it pretty hard to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the question of whether or not he was lying about how much money the business makes.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

No, I don't think Joe lied at all; at least there's nothing to suggest that he did. He could very well have been negotiating to buy the plumbing business.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

No, Rig, he admitted to Diane Sawyer he doesn't make enough money to buy a business. He's certainly free to have an American dream about it, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM

But why shouldn't he lie? Surely freedom of speech includes the right to tell porkies about yourself?

Wasting energy on criticising this bloke diverts attention from McCain's rather more serious porkies. And the effect is to play right into McCain's hands. Makes it easy for him to present himself as the defender of a working man who is under attack by these nasty liberal media types. Diverts attention from the real issues, and helps to ensure that a lot of ordinary people are going to worry about being hurt by tax plans that would in fact benefit them (like the real Joe).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM

"No, Rig, he admitted to Diane Sawyer he doesn't make enough money to buy a business."


                      I'm not sure what that means. Some business can be had pretty cheaply right now. I'm not aware of what he told Diane Sawyer.

                      I saw him on one talk show describing how he was in the process of preparing to take the test for his contracting license. Of course he could just sit on an inactive license, I suppose, but it sounded like he figured on going into business at some point.
                      All of that having been said, now is a really bad time to go into business, unless you're an auctioneer or a process server.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

If he was really planning on buying that business, he would be working to get his plumbing license. Looks like he's not doing that. He started an apprenticeship that should have been completed last year, but wasn't.

Some of Joe the Plumber's lies...


'When Barack Obama and Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher (aka Joe The Plumber) met recently in Ohio, the two got to talking about small businesses. Wurzelbacher told the senator he's a "plumber" and he's looking to buy a company. Obama asked how long he'd been a plumber. "Fifteen years," Wurzelbacher replied.

Oh, really?

Wurzelbacher registered as an apprentice with the Ohio State Apprenticeship Council in November 2003, according to Dennis Evans, spokesman with the Department of Job and Family Services. Records show his training, which was sponsored by A & W Newell Co. of Toledo, should have wrapped last year.

"We don't have a record of completion," Evans said. "All we know is that he registered in the program and has gone through to the point where we should have record of completion, but we don't."

And that's not the only record that's missing from Wurzelbacher's file. He doesn't have a plumbing license required by the city of Toledo to practice, according to a staffer with the Toledo Division of Building Inspection. Wurzelbacher, who now works for Newell Plumbing & Heating Co., said the owner, Al Newell, has a plumbing license and that "because he works for someone else, he doesn't need a license."

But even that's not true, according to the Toledo Division of Building Inspection. Wurzelbacher can't legally do plumbing work without a license, regardless of his boss's certification.

A staff person with the Toledo Division of Building Inspection told On Call this afternoon that her division will contact Wurzelbacher to notify him that he can't work without a license.

"We're trying to track him down," she said.

In the meantime, the Democrat-friendly local plumbers' union is fuming.

"He has no license whatsoever with the city of Toledo," said Tom Joseph, the business manager for Local Union 50 of the Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics, which has endorsed Obama. "He has no license in the state of Ohio. He has no contractor's license in the state of Ohio. He is not a plumber. He works for a plumber."

What about Wurzelbacher's claim that he is "gettin' ready to buy a company that makes about two hundred and fifty, two hundred and seventy, two hundred and eighty thousand dollars a year" ... ? Wurzelbacher told reporters that when he was hired by Newell six years ago "the possibility of him eventually buying the company was discussed during his job interview."

According to Joseph, Newell Plumbing & Heating is far from a $250K-a-year operation. Newell is running "a two-man shop," he said. "This is not a thriving business."

Isn't there a chance it could be worth $250K? "Oh, God no," Joseph said. "Maybe if he sells him the house, the garage." He explained that the address for the business "is where the man lives at."

"The real Joe Plumbers are for Barack," Joseph added.'

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2008/10/im_not_a_plumbe.html


That's a lot of lies, and they undermine any credibility he has when he says pretty much anything at all. My guess is what Joe the Plumber would really like to do with his life is have his own radio talk show. And that looks like a dream that he may very well realize.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 01:55 PM

I disagree with the idea that showing Joe's lies for what they are plays into McCain's hands. McCain is still using Joe the Plumber as a propaganda tool. Poking holes in the lies makes it harder for McCain to use that propaganda tool with any success.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM

Well, I think you're wrong there. But it's your election.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

And it's the country in which I will be living for the next four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM

"More likely perhaps he was dreaming about what he'd like to do,..."

That's exactly the point: Joe was and is basing his vote and his entire political philosophy on dreaming: IF he were five or six times richer than he actually is, then, sure, he would benefit from the Republican policy.

He doesn't stop to consider that, if indeed he were to succeed in fulfilling his dreams, it might not be quite so painful for him to pony up a few extra tax dollars.

And he certainly isn't stopping to think about his actual, real-world, current circumstances, wherein he's not a superplumber taking home a cool quarter-million as personal income.

He's a working stiff who is paying MORE than his fair share of taxes, thanks to the ever-more-favorable treatment of the overprivileged that we've experienced in recent years, and he will benefit when Obama and the Democrats take some of that load back off his shoulders by restoring the tax codes to their former more-equitable formulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM

If he's working for a plumbing contractor, and is physically doing the work we know a plumbing, he' a plumber. He's not a plumbing contractor. You have to have a license to be a plumbing contractor, but not to be a plumber.

                In the states that I'm familiar with, in order to have a license, you would have to post a bond and show proof of both Liability and Worker's Compensation Insurance. All of those things are expensive, and you wouldn't purchase any of it unless you were ready to engage in the actuall business of contracting.

                The fact that the union in putting out damaging information about Joe would simply lead one to assume that he's working for a non-union shop. That pisses off union officials for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM

According to the authorities in the area in which he works, he needs a license to be a plumber. However, even if that's not the case, his boss has a plumbing license, and he claims that's the license he's been working under. So under those circumstances, if Joe wants to buy and operate that business, he's going to need to get that plumber's license.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

Yes, he would need to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM

And yet, he was supposed to complete his apprenticeship last year, and he has not done that. He doesn't appear to be making any preparations for buying and operating that business.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:01 PM

Several here have said it makes no odds that he's not really buying (or even "preparing to buy") his boss's little two-man company, let alone a company that nets in excess of $250,000. They suggest, charitably speaking, that his real meaning was that there are or may be those in that position, and he just personalized it to himself.

Let's say that that's the case. If he had only added one of two words, "say" or "suppose", before "I am preparing to buy". . . or before "I am buying". . .   That would make clear what those charitable posters want to give him credit for doing.

If he'd only said that (which we'll assume for the moment is what he "really meant") how much argle-bargle would have been saved! McCain wouldn't have gotten egg on his face, and Obama would presumably have said exactly what he DID say, and then just think how much indignation might have been saved for all and sundry!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:04 PM

Not a question of giving the man credit, it's just that it's really nobody else's business whether he was saying things that weren't true, even if that was intentional.   

Any blame for this should rest squarely on McCain and his team, and on no one else. McCain is in a different position from Joe - he does an obligation to tell the truth, and can rightly be blamed when he distorts the truth, as has happened in this case

Maybe initially it was a matter of failure to do basic homework and checking the facts before putting the spotlight on this man, and using him as a weapon against Obama. Subsequently, as the true facts have emerged, it has become a matter of distortion verging on lies. Not unusual in politicians, but always something for which they should be made to pay a price. And the same should apply to the parts of tey media which have colluded in this.

But it seems to me that going on about Joe's misstatement of his financial situation in his conversation with Obama is aiming at completely the wrong target.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM

Here's The Ballad of Joe the Plumber, by Ukes for Obama.

I've just posted a link to it on this thread above the line - with the comment "And I'm glad to see the target isn't Joe, it's the man who's been trying use him as an assault weapon, McCain."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Wirzlebacher is a familiar name. One of the Keating Five from Ohio.

Joe the Plumber doesn't make 250,000 a year. He isn't a plumber but a contractor.
He hasn't voted and is in tax arrears.

Joe isn't his real name.

Joe is a fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:17 PM

I heard a few days ago that Joe is no relation to the Keating 5 character of the same last name and from the same state (even though it would not seem to be a very common name).

I can't give a citation. My only reason for readily accepting it as true is that the person who told me is someone who would have loved the truth to be otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:45 PM

Well, well, well...

First of all, CarolC is entirely correct... Joe the Plumber was invented by the McCain campaign team to use as propoganda... The guy ain't licensed, couldn't get thru an apprenticeship program and therefore ain't in a position to operate a plumbing company... Them's is the laws... Yeah, he can legally buy it and pay a real plumber who is licensed to run it but he can't run it without a license... But making $40K a year and being behind on his taxes, there isn't a snowball's cahnce in hell that he could even do that...

But nevermind Joe the Plumber, for now...

I heard Barak Obama yesterday and he has seemlessly put an end to this short lived desperate McCain trick in saying that McCain's tax proposals are not for Joe the Plumber but for "Joe the Hedge Fund Manager", or "Joe the CEO"...

Reckon that this outta put poor ol' Joe the Plumber out of his misery...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

The company Sam (his real name) works for Grossed just over $100,000 last year.

The whole story is, in fact, pure propaganda.

And Obama has never sneered at Joe the plumber, or any plumber, or any working person. The sneer is aimed at the propagandists, but that's not what Hannity is telling you, so you'll never get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM

"Joe the Plumber was invented by the McCain campaign team to use as propoganda..."


             The stars would have had to have lined up for him. He would have to have known Joe, know where Joe lived, know Joe was a plumber, and know Obama would come walking down Joe's street at the same time Joe was out in his driveway playing catch with a football.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:40 PM

No, he wouldn't at all, Rigs... That is silly talk...

McCain's folks are desperate... They are lookin' anywhere they can to find some traction and along comes this guy Joe who who is asking Obama questions about his tax plans...

A little brain storming later and Joe the Plumber is born... Not there on that street but in McCain's campaign war room...

This is how it went down and trying to rewrite it is just nonsense... I watched the discussion between Obama and Joe and at no time did Joe say, "I'm Joe the Plumber"... McCain's people made this guy "Joe" into "Joe the Plumber"...

That's the fabrication part, Rigs... That's where reality gets distorted (propoganda) into mythology...

Hey, this guy ain't even a plumber... He's just a guy with an ax ro grind and a very willing and desperate Republican ticket all to happy to promote him into being the poster boy of what they percieve is wrong with Obama???

Convoluted???

You betcha...

Fact is starnger than fiction... althought with McCain the fiction is getting very entertaining...

(That makes you an elitest, Bobert... Did you ever hang 'round with Bill Ayers???)

See what I mean, Rigs??? This is getting purdy juvenilistic on yer boy's part...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:55 PM

Why would we think that Joe is not a plumber? That's what he does for a living; he works as a plumber for a plumbing contractor. That part of the scenario really doesn't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM

Well, Rigs... The guy ain't licensed... He started an apprentice program and couldn't even complete that... I'm a contractor... I undertand tradesman... I understant plumbing... And electrical stuff... And purdy much ebverything about building...

I'm tellin' you that if this guy came to me and said he was a plumber and I found out he couldn't even get thru an apprenticeship, I might hire him anyway but as a laborer or plumber's helper (laborer) at the same wage that I would hire any kid outta high school without an skills...

Maybe you know something I don't about the building trade, I don't know... But hiring folks that don't know sh*t from Shinola ain't all that smart 'cause eventually yer gonna have to fix the stuff they screwed up... Ain't worth hiring these folks... Unfortuately for both John McCain and Joe the UnPlumber, this the real world...

Apparently neither of them undertsand much about the real world...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM

None of this--whether he's a plumber, whether he's a shill, whether he lied or not--makes the slightest difference. If McCain can convince some people that the typical middle-class stiff earns more than a quarter million a year, he's done what he set out to do.

dick the pauper (relatively speaking)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: TIA
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM

Yup, that's what it boils down to folks. Vote for McCain if you love Joe the plumber and hate Bill Ayers. That's the platform right there. Good thing we are all thinking clearly about the big picture and our kids' futures.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:42 PM

From: Bobert
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 08:26 PM

Well, Rigs... The guy ain't licensed..

Frank Sinatra, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Roy Orbison and Elvis Presley for starters, couldn't read or write music...I guess they weren't musicians, either......oh well...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: TIA
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:57 PM

There's no minimum training nor licensing requirement to play music (thank goodness for me).

Music is a matter of taste. Not legal code.

But you get analogy *attempt* points.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

It's not a matter of taste..it's perception dysfunction...try that one on for size.

As so far as no minimum training for playing music...ummm, you don't get audiences, do you??

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM

Give up, Mr. Hypocrite, (AKA CEO of Smears R Us).   As usual, you know less than nothing about your chosen topic. But that of course does not stop you from honoring us with more of your best drivel--again.

Anybody who saw the actual encounter would know Obama, far from sneering, told "Joe" he respected him, even if he did not get his vote.

He approached Obama, not the reverse.

Anybody who knows anything about business--which leaves both you and "Joe" out, evidently-- knows that you do have to realize there is a difference between gross and net. And "Joe" well knew the business did not come close to making $250,000 net profit/ yr.   It probably didn't even come close to $250,000 gross.

And he knew--and admitted later--that he wasn't "getting ready" to buy the business anytime soon.

He misrepresented himself start to finish.

I've also read that "Joe" is a registered donor to the McCain campaign--question is as of when-- and a registered Republican.   I suspect these can be confirmed.

And now McCain is trying to make him into an icon of the middle class hurt by Obama's tax plans.

A conceit false from top to bottom.

In common with most of your postings.



Pleasant dreams.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 12:55 AM

"Frank Sinatra, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Roy Orbison and Elvis Presley for starters, couldn't read or write music...I guess they weren't musicians"

The problem with that one is that it ASS-U-MEs that there is only ONE type of muso...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:09 AM

I know you folks don't watch Fox News Network (Fair and Balanced) so I thought you might be interested to know that Warren Buffet is going to provide Joe the Plumber with the start-up capital to purchase his boss's business! I knew that would lighten your hearts a bit. You are the champions of the common folks, right? Let's hear it for JOE THE PLUMBER! And Warren Buffet too, of course. He recognizes a entrepreneur when he sees one.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:58 AM

I cannot comment on the position in the USA but to do anything other than the simplest of tasks in the plumbing field in the UK, (I have just had a boiler installed for example) has to be done by a registered plumber.

It stops people being blown up for starters. It stops people being asphyxiated by carbon monoxide poisoning. It stops floods between floorboards.

It ain't easy to sue if you are dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:56 AM

The problem with that one is that it ASS-U-MEs that there is only ONE type of muso..

You forgot, or didn't see, or are just being contentious, that I said,..
Orbison, and Elvis Presley, FOR STARTERS...'

..so actually, it doesn't ASS-U-MEs' anything!.Keep your Ass to yourself...and around your head!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:24 AM

"..so actually, it doesn't ASS-U-MEs' anything!"

You obviously missed the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

Okay, GfS... Next time yer toilet backs up, call a folk musican... lol...

That is about as silly an analogy as I have ever heard... Geeze...

Some folks, as evidenced by American Idol, are born with good voices and learn to sing on their own... The operative word here is "learn"... Lotta folks "learn" by just lsitening and singing along... That's an acceptable way to learn...

In the trades that is what apprenticeship programs are for... It allows one to observe (listen) and "learn" from, like singing, practice... That's the part that JtP apparently hasn't done... That's where, as an employer, I say, "Hey, this guy is just going to cost me money because he doesn't know what he's doing and I'm probably going to have to go behind him and chean up is mess..."

You know, kinda like what Obama is going to have to do...

Really, when you look at John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his VP it makes perfect sense that McCain would put his campaign in the hands of someone like Joe the Plumber...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM

"As usual, you know less than nothing about your chosen topic. But that of course does not stop you from honoring us with more of your best drivel--again."


                      Ron - I suggest you read the rest of the post, especially the part where we talk about business and who does and doesn't not need a license.

                      In California, builders all over the state were hiring illegal aliens to function as plumbers before the building boom exploded. Many of them couldn't even speak English. How much formal instruction could they have had? Their employer would have to have a license.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM

I know not about California's licensing laws, but Ohio requires licensing for a plumber (not just an employee of a plumbing company), to do most plumbing work. As I recall reading, anything to do with water supply, with sewage disposal, and other hazardous undertakings. They require an apprenticeship, which is a period of working under the direction of a LICENSED plumber, and then a test. Joe "the plumber", from all indications, started but did not finish his apprenticeship. So he's qualified, as I would gather it, to change washers in faucets, and ream out drains, and highly technical things like that.

Now he might (if the rumor about Warren Buffet is true) be able to buy out his boss, but he still can't legally do most of the work. He says, as I recall hearing, that he's "preparing" to take the plumbing contractor exam. If so, I can't see how he'll be allowed even to sit for the exam, without an even an apprenticeship behind him, and a history of working as a plumber without a license.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

"If McCain can convince some people that the typical middle-class stiff earns more than a quarter million a year"... he's going to make most people feel they are really doing badly, total failures in worldy terms.

Is this really such a good tactic?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:31 PM

From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

Okay, GfS... Next time yer toilet backs up, call a folk musican... lol...
That is about as silly an analogy as I have ever heard... Geeze...

If my toilet backs up, I'll fix it my own fucking self...what? I need government plumber-caid???...what a bunch of wimps!

Foolestroupe: I missed something?? What? I'm not beyond retracting, when appropriate...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

When you quote and add a bit, it's best to indicate where the quote ends, to avoid confusion.
..............................................

People who try to fix stuff they don't know how to fix are a great source of income for the professionals. There's stuff we can do, and there's stuff we can't do, and the trick is to know the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

Come to think of it, Bobert..you might be right!!...I'll call a folk singer, and he can play 'Kumbaya' and will, and vibe, the turd to go down, until the toilet ands the coda, of 'Glock.......glock..glock'!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

The name "CarolC" is cooked up, fictional.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM

Caribou Barbie is a cooked up fictitious name.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM

Most on here are, Mr. Sawzaw.

(Not an attack, I happen to give you more credit than most of the 'Kumbaya-ers')

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

Typo in the other one....Joe!..oh Joe!!...need to fix!!1...(sorry)

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

Come to think of it, Bobert..you might be right!!...I'll call a folk singer, and he can play 'Kumbaya' and will, and vibe, the turd to go down, until the toilet ends the with a coda, of 'Glock.......glock..glock'!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM

"Caribou Barbie is a cooked up fictitious name."

Is there concern that someone might cast a fraudulent ballot in that name?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM

CarolC is my first name and the first letter of my middle name (used to be my first name and the first letter of my last name), nothing fictional about it. But even if my screen name was fictional, it would have nothing to do with the presidential race.

Nice try, though... or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

You are welcome to fix your own toilet any time. But in a lot of places, you can't sell your plumbing services for money without a plumbers license. Same for selling your self as a lawyer, or engineer, or doctor, or a lot of things.

As for music, if you try to sell your music, and it is no good, people simply won't buy it. A lot of people bought Elvis, Lennon, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: open mike
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM

i have heard that there are several web sites with "plumber" and "Joe"
in them and that these people are benefitting from all the attention.
http://www.joetheplumberseattle.com/
http://www.joetheplumber.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

Well, ownin' a plumbing business and doing plumbing for money isn't just being able to fix yer toilet but understanding code because when the inspectors come thru yer job you had better have everything up to code 'er yer going to have to pay twice to get one job done correctly...

As fir yer toity, GfS, chances are that it ain't the turd that has it not flushing... It's usually somethin' else... This is where Harry Homeowner or Joe the UnPlumber can get himself into trouble...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

McGrath: The part I think Obama would like to take back is "speading the wealth" Under Obama's tax plan he would increase the tax on the "haves" and the increased amount would be given to those who do not pay income tax. It's an additional welfare program. The McCain campaign capitalized on that remark and since Obama visited Joe the Plumber, the polls have tightened up. Had he not made that remark, and had Biden not stuck both feet in his mouth (which he does regularly) the Obama campaign would likely still have a healthy lead in the polls.

TIA: Were I not a nice fellow, I might be inclined to make a rude remark about you too. But I won't do that. Because I am nice, I play nice.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM

Go on, Dougie, an' make the rude remark... TIA will give it back to ya' in spades...

...and, ahhhh, 300...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:31 PM

"If you've got a plumbing business, you're gonna be better off if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody's so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

That seems pretty self evidently true. What Obama was talking about there was a tax cut. Reducing taxes so that people have more money to spend is a pretty good idea. There are limits on how far it can be done, because you have to have money to do things that need doing, but in principle it's a good idea to have that money spread out for people to use.

The sleight of hand is the suggestion that under Obama's proposals somehow ordinary hard working people with relatively modest earnings are going to be ripped off to pay for people who don't deserve it. And that just isn't true, from all I've read and seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:34 PM

You think that's a good thing, Bobbie?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:57 PM

From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM


"As for music, if you try to sell your music, and it is no good, people simply won't buy it. A lot of people bought Elvis, Lennon, etc."

If they're not buying YOURS, try some of that there, training stuff, you've heard about!...and...practice, practice practice!


From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

As fir yer toity, GfS, chances are that it ain't the turd that has it not flushing... It's usually somethin' else... This is where Harry Homeowner or Joe the UnPlumber can get himself into trouble...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM

From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM


"As for music, if you try to sell your music, and it is no good, people simply won't buy it. A lot of people bought Elvis, Lennon, etc."

If they're not buying YOURS, try some of that there, training stuff, you've heard about!...and...practice, practice practice!


From: Bobert
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM

As fir yer toity, GfS, chances are that it ain't the turd that has it not flushing... It's usually somethin' else... This is where Harry Homeowner or Joe the UnPlumber can get himself into trouble...

Ok, Bobert, what have you been doing in my bathroom??? What's in there...fess up!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

If I were a plumber,
and you were a lady
would you marry me anyway,
would you have...?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

...the increased amount would be given to those who do not pay income tax

That is just not true, Doug. WE pay income tax, as do all others who make under $250,000, and would get some kind of a tax break. My gosh, have you READ Obama's plan? Try it, you might like: Clickety.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM

Read it quick. It changes every twenty minutes!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:40 PM

Actually, it is a fiction that Obama's plan will give anything to people making less money. The truth is that Obama's plan will simply take less money away from those people in the first place, in exactly the same way that Bush's tax cuts took less away from the people making the most money for the last eight years (while the people making less money continued to pay the same amount or more).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: jimmyt
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:18 PM

Just finished replacing all the plumbing in a sink. Kinda fun in a weird sort of way.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:55 PM

jimmyt - Yeah, I always thought plumbing was kind of fun. It really is now that they use glue-together plastic pipe, and you don't have to cut and thread galvanized steel. It was a real pain-in-the-ass to measure, cut, and thread the old way, and then find out you were a 1/4 of an inch short, and had to put in a union where you might have gotten by with a coupler.

               It was always a challenge to get the length just right, so you could get just the right number of revolutions on the pipe to prevent leakage, and still keep every thing lined up.

               Civil contractors like myself always ran the sewer in the street at a 1% grade, the the plumbers would take over with architechual drawings and plumb things at 1/8 of an inch to the foot. But it all figures out pretty much to the same grade.

                Of course, Joe the plumber would know all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:55 PM

It's certainly possible that Warren Buffet may provide "Joe" with the capital he needs to buy the 2-man plumbing business.

However:

1)   That has yet to be confirmed by any source with even the slightest reliability.   I'll check the WSJ tomorrow. If it's not there, I strongly doubt the story.

2)    More significantly--even if it's true it strengthens rather than weakens the argument that "Joe" was just selling anybody who listened a bill of goods:   he was not by a long shot ready to buy the business any time soon---his entire presentation was false.

and

3)   Even if he does buy the business, he still will be helped, rather than hurt by Obama's tax proposals. Since the business, yet again, would have to pull in about $5 million a year to have clear profit of $250,000.

I have yet to see one iota of evidence contradicting this.

If anybody has it, they are invited to post it.



So" Joe's" whining--and McCain's whole use of him to sell the issue--is dishonest start to finish.

And it's too bad there seem to be an amazing number of people gullible enough to swallow it---unless they are really just looking for a "socially acceptable" excuse to vote against Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:07 PM

No Ron - Even I would admit that there is probably no way in the world that Joe would "net" over $250,000 a year. It would mean that he would have to gross almost 10 times that much, and if he doesn't have the capital to bond jobs of that magnitude he would have to be the beneficiary of "affirmitave action" in order to do it. And sadly, Joe is a white male.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:14 PM

So then, Mr. Riginslinger--ignoring the usual stupid aside aimed at "affirmative action"-- you have to admit that "Joe's" presentation was false--start to finish--as I said.

Since he would be helped, not hurt, by Obama's tax plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:37 AM

From: CarolC
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:40 PM

Actually, it is a fiction that Obama's plan will give anything to people making less money.

CarolC, See, the 'liberals' think that all things come from the government(even your inalienable rights). So, when they take less, they call it, giving you more...(Scratches head) I know it's loony tunes, but it is actually the way they think! They also think that defending one's self is not a natural instinct, but a privilege, only to be performed by the federal government. (That's equally loony tunes). Now some clown, will post after me, with some semi-literate(Read: half witted rant) saying I'm all wrong. But, not all things come from the supreme federal government, including one's own self responsibility.

Btw. hi!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:47 AM

But it's not the people being called "liberals" who are saying Obama is going to give those people something. It's the people who are supporting McCain (most of whom are in no way conservative) who are promoting that fiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:51 AM

McCain, by the way, is not a conservative either! Actually he is somewhat a bit of modern fiction!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:58 AM

Come to think of it, Sarah Palin is more conservative than John McCain. I think that's why liberal women hate her so vehemently. She has succeeded to what she has accomplished, as a woman, but holding onto 'traditionally' conservative ideals...and...well, no, I better not.

Actually, if 'backbone' were a criteria for being president, I think she is more qualified than any of the other three, on the two tickets. But, one needs more than backbone!

Watch everyone squawk now!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM

I don't think that "semi-literate" is an insult Sanity ought to throw around too readily...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:25 AM

"So then, Mr. Riginslinger--ignoring the usual stupid aside aimed at "affirmative action"-- you have to admit that "Joe's" presentation was false--start to finish--"


                No, Ron. Joe's presentation was not false, because he, I think, thought that grossing $250,000 as a plumbing contractor would put him in the higher tax bracket.

                But I think Carol is right, Obama, if he becomes president, isn't going to be able to give anyone much of a tax break. The government is going to need every dime it can get its hands on to bail out the mortgage melt-down.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM

Then, Rig, you are saying that "Joe" was both lazy and stupid--since he, a supposed would-be businessman, did not realize that $250,000 gross earnings/ yr. does not mean anything close to that amount net. Even without Obama's tax plans "Joe" should have a general idea how much he would owe in taxes as owner of the business. And he was lazy enough not to do any reading on Obama's tax plan before he confronted him in his fundamentally false presentation.

Unless of course he knew he didn't have a prayer of coming up with the money to take over the business for a good long time. And therefore had no incentive to delve into hypothetical tax problems--but did, for some reason, want to confront Obama and make a scene with his totally dishonest portrayal of his situation.

And you have provided no evidence to counter the assertion that "Joe" was either stupidly misinformed or had another reason to want to attack Obama.

A possible clue to "Joe" 's attitude toward taxes is that he still owes Ohio about $1200. And the case is in court. Sounds like somebody who really doesn't like any taxes--even if taxes are necessary to live in the US if you have any kind of decent income.

And, by the way: re: Buffett

1)    There is no mention in the WSJ of Buffett bankrolling "Joe" in taking over the business. Sounds like another worthless Hannity/Rush rumor.

Anybody who believes it is invited to provide a reputable source.   Rush and Hannity, sorry to say, do not qualify.

2)    Buffett himself is actually on Obama's side as far as "spreading the wealth".   He is in fact not against paying higher taxes himself--and does not consider it socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

And the reason that the "government is going to need every dime", as rigs has pointed out, is that the current administration used the same fear tactics to push thru the bailout as it used to get folks to go along with the Iraq War... Whoa!!!... Talk about taking from the taxpayers and giving it to someone else???

I don't believe that McCain has any room to talk about Obama being this socialistic bandit... They both supported this heist so, at best, McCain is a hypocrit and if Obama were out there calling McCain a socialist, in a demenaing manner, than Obama would also be a hypocrit...

What an amazing pack of lies that McCain has come up with here in the late innings of this campaign!?!?!...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:09 AM

Certainly, Bobert, the government taking over at least part of the management of certain financial institutions is far more socialism than anything caused by Obama's tax plans.

But as you note, McCain is fine with the "bailout".

Can anybody spell H Y P O C R I S Y ?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM

"There is no mention in the WSJ of Buffett bankrolling "Joe" in taking over the business."


                      That is just about as laughable a comment as I've ever heard. I haven't heard anybody suggest that Warren Buffett was interested in backing Joe to buy a business. And if it doesn't show up in the Wall Street Journal, it is probably more likely to happen than not. Maybe it is happening, but Rupert Murdoch doesn't want anyone to know it.

                     And I did not imply that Joe is either lazy or stupid. I think he is misinformed about the difference between gross and net income.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

no mention of Buffett bankrolling "Joe?

As usual, you don't read very carefully--and you shoot from the hip without checking anything. Your pal Doug R brought it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:37 AM

"misinformed_----too lazy to actually do research to find out any facts before shooting off his mouth. No wonder you identify with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:23 AM

Rig--

And it's also interesting to hear yet another of your more stupid conspiracy theories--that Murdoch controls what's in the WSJ reporting.

Not likely--the reporting is constantly contradicting his conservative stance on a host of issues.

And any significant development in the business world, or with any high-profile businessman--is likely to be in the WSJ. Buffett qualifies.

I don't really care if you believe it or not. You've never shown any interest in facts.

Your know-nothing stance is just about perfect--you would have fit right into the 1850's.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

Ron - The know-nothings of today are the voters who are herded around by MoveOn.org and encouraged to vote for Obama.

                   Sometimes the owner of a newspaper has some influence about what is printed on its pages.

                   But your announcing that an event didn't happen because it wasn't announced in the Wall Street Journal only testifies to the lack of depth of your well of information.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:00 PM

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM

I don't think that "semi-literate" is an insult Sanity ought to throw around too readily...

You're right!..In your case, you can remove the word 'semi' and replace it with 'completely illiterate'

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

   Civil contractors like myself always ran the sewer in the street at a 1% grade, the the plumbers would take over with architechual drawings and plumb things at 1/8 of an inch to the foot. But it all figures out pretty much to the same grade.

                Of course, Joe the plumber would know all of this.

He would if he'd done his apprenticeship!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

"He would if he'd done his apprenticeship!"


             Unless the apprenticeship, was sponsored by left wing loonies, and was teaching apprentices that shit runs uphill!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:27 PM

Can anyone say explain they think "Joe the Plumber" had any obligation to stick to the facts when asking Obama that question, and why failing to do so, either by accident or intentionally should leave him open to criticism?

As I've pointed out, he's not a politician, or a journalist, or a witness or a jury member in a court of law. There are a number of other situations in which there is indeed a duty to speak the truth about this kind of thing, but I can't see why asking a question to a politician should be one of those.

If he isn't actually a qualified plumber either, that is a matter purely between himself and his employers, or the people whose plumbing he may worked on.
.....................
"In your case, you can remove the word 'semi' and replace it with 'completely illiterate'

That would make it "completely illiterate-literate", Sanity. Moreover in that context "semi is not "a word", it's "a prefix" - "a verbal element placed at the beginning of a word to qualify meaning".

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM

"If he isn't actually a qualified plumber either, that is a matter purely between himself and his employers, or the people whose plumbing he may worked on."

Also a matter of what the laws are in his state and county for licensing plumbers and the local plumber's union.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

Ohio authorities are trying to find out who accessed state driver's license information on the Toledo area man dubbed Joe the Plumber.

..information on Wurzelbacher's driver's license or his sport-utility vehicle was pulled from the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles database three times shortly after the debate.

Information on Wurzelbacher was accessed by accounts assigned to the office of Ohio Attorney General Nancy H. Rogers, the Cuyahoga County Child Support Enforcement Agency and the Toledo Police Department.

It has not been determined who checked on Wurzelbacher, or why. Direct access to driver's license and vehicle registration information from BMV computers is restricted to legitimate law enforcement and government business.

The attorney general's office is investigating if the access of Wuzelbacher's BMV information through the office's Ohio Law Enforcement Gateway computer system was unauthorized, said spokeswoman Jennifer Brindisi.

"We're trying to pinpoint where it came from," she said. The investigation could become "criminal in nature," she said. Brindisi would not identify the account that pulled the information on Oct. 16.

Records show it was a "test account" assigned to the information technology section of the attorney general's office, said Department of Public Safety spokesman Thomas Hunter.

Brindisi later said investigators have confirmed that Wurzelbacher's information was not accessed within the attorney general's office. She declined to provide details. The office's test accounts are shared with and used by other law enforcement-related agencies, she said.

On Oct. 17, BMV information on Wurzelbacher was obtained through an account used by the Cuyahoga County Child Support Enforcement Agency in Cleveland, records show.

Mary Denihan, spokeswoman for the county agency, said the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services contacted the agency today and requested an investigation of the access to Wurzelbacher's information. Cuyahoga County court records do not show any child-support cases involving Wurzelbacher.

The State Highway Patrol, which administers the Law Enforcement Automated Data System in Ohio, asked Toledo police to explain why it pulled BMV information on Wurzelbacher within 48 hours of the debate, Hunter said.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM

Sarah Palin's not a conservative, either. She's too fond of earmarks and pork for her state. And there was nothing conservative about putting her town in debt (and raising taxes to pay for it) just so she could build a sports complex with her name on it on land that wasn't even owned by the city.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM

I didn't say Obama wouldn't lower taxes. I said he's not giving away money to people in the lower income brackets. I notice when those in the higher income brackets get a tax break, they call that "giving us our money back", and when people in the lower income brackets get a tax break, the people in the upper income brackets call that welfare.

Obama says he will be able to lower taxes on the middle class. I don't disbelieve him at this point in time. We will see in the fullness of time whether or not he will be able to do this. (First he has to get elected before he can try.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

CarolC observed:

lower taxes on the middle class. *** We will see in the fullness of time whether or not he will be able to do this. (First he has to get elected before he can try.)

Not only does HE have to get elected, but he has to have a Congress solidly in Democratic hands, rather than by the skin of their teeth.   

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:53 AM

"Also a matter of what the laws are in his state and county for licensing plumbers and the local plumber's union."



                     I suspect there are far more open shop plumbers working in America now that union plumbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM

And Joe the Plumber doesn not need a license to work as a plumber for somebody else in the state of Ohio. Please find below the section of the code that applys:


CHAPTER 4740: CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY LICENSING BOARD
4740.01 Construction industry licensing board definitions.
As used in this chapter:

(A) "License" means a license the Ohio construction industry licensing board issues to an individual as a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, refrigeration contractor, electrical contractor, plumbing contractor, or hydronics contractor.

(B) "Contractor" means any individual or business entity that satisfies both of the following:

(1) For compensation, directs, supervises, or has responsibility for the means, method, and manner of construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance on a construction project with respect to one or more trades and who offers, identifies, advertises, or otherwise holds out or represents that the individual or business entity is permitted or qualified to perform, direct, supervise, or have responsibility for the means, method, and manner of construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance with respect to one or more trades on a construction project;

(2) Performs or employs tradespersons who perform construction, improvement, renovation, repair, or maintenance on a construction project with respect to the contractor's trades.

(C) "Licensed trade" means a trade performed by a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, a refrigeration contractor, an electrical contractor, a plumbing contractor, or a hydronics contractor.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

Good smear, Rig. I did not say an event did not happen since it was not reported in the WSJ. I said this particular allegation--Buffett bankrolling "Joe"-- was unlikely, since it would be newsworthy enough, on a topic of interest to the WSJ, that, if it did happen, they very likely--my phrase was "is likely to be"-- would report it.

No surprise you defend McCain and Palin constantly--smearing is the only thing both you and they do well.

Too bad thinking is not involved in any of your postings.


But plenty of hypocrisy--since, as I said, you constantly defend Palin and McCain--though Palin is the only real fundamentalist on the tickets of the major parties, and McCain-appointed-judges would further erode the church-state barrier you whine about so piteously and often and claim to care about.

But congratulations on spelling every word right in the post I refer to on Buffett--you must have figured out how to use spell-check.

Now if you can only learn to think, perhaps there will be progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM

Rig-

"Joe the Plumber doesn not need a license to work as a plumber for somebody else in the state of Ohio."

That conclusion does not appear to be supported by the sections of state law that you posted, which doesn't necessarily surprise me. In fact, please review Section C:

(C) "Licensed trade" means a trade performed by a heating, ventilating, and air conditioning contractor, a refrigeration contractor, an electrical contractor, a plumbing contractor, or a hydronics contractor.

"Plumbing" is identified as a "licensed trade" and therefore anyone who practices it for "compensation" would need to acquire a license.

Charley Noble, who knows better than to do his own plumbing

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Read it again, Charley, it says a PLUMBING CONTRACTROR:


                     I do my own plumbing, and when I had both a General Engineering and a General Building License in California, I did it all the time for other people.

                      The guy a day or so earlier who was posting about working on boilers was right. A plumbing license wouldn't normally allow you to work on boilers, that's a whole different thing that requires a special license. Plumbing is simply not that way in any state I've worked in, and it isn't that way in Ohio.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM

Riginslinger's statute excerpt is of interest, but doesn't establish what he cites it for

The statute Rig quotes is merely a definitions statute, which does not purport to lay out qualifications or licensing requirements, or procedures for licensing.   In effect that statute merely says, "When we refer to 'X', this is what it means."

I remember reading, perhaps in this thread (and I've referred to that post earlier in this thread, myself), perhaps in some other thread, a quote of an Ohio statute which set out those plumbing operations which may ONLY be done by a licensed plumber or licensed plumbing contractor.

Incidentally, I also recall reading (probably in this thread) that J the P's employer is not a licensed contractor in Ohio. And perhaps it was also that the employer is not a licensed plumber himself.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

But why on earth is any of that of any interest, except to someone who is thinking of calling in "Joe" to do some plumbing?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

McGrath, It wouldn't be of interest if the left wing looneys hadn't made an issue of it. Anytime anyone says anything, instead of debating the point made, they want to go after the source. In this case, Joe was the source.

               They've done this to anyone who has anything negative to say about Barack Obama. That's probably because Barack Obama never says anything himself, so there's nothing else to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:47 PM

Rig said:

A plumbing license wouldn't normally allow you to work on boilers, that's a whole different thing that requires a special license.

Yes, the boiler work would require a steamfitter, with appropriate license.

Plumbing is simply not that way in any state I've worked in, and it isn't that way in Ohio. (*)

If that statement is true, it's clear you have not worked in Indiana, then, Rig, (and I doubt your statement, even as to the other states).   I'm a court reporter, and I am called from time to time to report hearings before the Indiana plumbing commission. One of the most frequent situations is where someone is hauled in for practicing plumbing without a license, or acting as a plumbing contractor without that license, or where he's failed the plumber's examination and wants them to regrade certain questions, or where he doesn't have the requisite experience working for a licensed contractor to be qualified to take the exam, or is practicing with an expired or even a revoked license.

(*) It looks to me as if you just make these things up as you go along.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 03:41 PM

And I still say that anyone netting a quarter mil per year is a pretty feeble example of the middle class. Which is what this bullshit is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:14 PM

Sounds like a lot of 'straining on a gnat, and swallowing a camel', to me!

A person can work for a plumber, electrician, carpenter, or any of the trades, and NOT have a license, if he is working for a licensed contractor, then the contractor can 'sign off' the work, under his license, so it can be inspected. I suppose if many of you would have worked in the trades, you would have known this. It's a complete no brainer! If that same person, wants to take over, or start his own company, then getting his own license will allow him to carry his own contracts, be bonded, and sign off the work, himself. The next stupid argument, countering this will be posted by an ignoramus!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

That's not as much the point, GtS, as Joes origional suspec t statements that he made in questioning Obama... Here a guy who says he is considering buying a plumbing company... That, unless there us more to the story, was more than likely false...

(Well, Bobert, it might have been true...)

Unlikely... Here's a guy with no license, a $40,000 year job as a plumber's assistant (laborer), tax leins and for him to buy a plumbing company he would have to foot the bill to also hire a licensed plumber to run it... The Wes Ginny Slide Rule has worked on this scenero and says that Joe is full of bull...

And now we have McCain having put his future and perhaps the immediate future of the Republican Party in the hands of this guy???

What am I missing here, folks???

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM

So "Joe" bigged himself up when talking to Obama. Once again, so what?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:27 PM

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM

So "Joe" bigged himself up when talking to Obama. Once again, so what?

Obama has been doing some 'bigging up' of his own self, as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM

I agree McGrath, what Joe says doesn't really matter, and one can explain over and over to some of these people how a plumber's license works, and they'll never get it. Joe doesn't need one, it's that simple.


               But when Obama tells whoppers, it should mean something to the press, but it doesn't. They simply look the other way. They're going to get the fellow elected, and the entire country will end up paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:36 PM

Agree!...........................................................Either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:41 PM

I'd be a lot more interested in what other people might have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:47 PM

Joe does need a license, even though he works for someone else.

"Wurzelbacher said he works under owner Al Newell's license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work. State records show that Wurzelbacher does not have that license, but is currently working on obtaining it."

full article here

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM

Not everywhere, Alice..perhaps in Ohio...why?...you looking for a plumber?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:59 PM

"perhaps in Ohio".

Why does it matter?   Like most who attack Obama, you don't read very carefully, do you, Inanity?

It matters since Ohio is where "Joe" operates and where he told his totally false story to Obama.

So Ohio requirements are exactly what counts. And that's what Alice has told us about through her link.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:06 PM

From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 09:59 PM


It matters since Ohio is where "Joe" operates and where he told his totally false story to Obama.

Obama has told a few whoppers in Ohio, himself! What goes around, comes around.

BTW, I'm not one of the daily Obama attackers. I think their BOTH full of shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:11 PM

Are you, Inanity, a wholly owned subsidiary of Smears R Us?-- "whoppers Obama has told in Ohio"--without one example. Typical.

But it appears that you finally do realize that "Joe" told a totally false story to Obama---on purpose.

At least that means you may possibly be able to read. So that's progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:16 PM

Ron, Both Obama and McCain have been smearing each other with lies, innuendos and misleading statements, and twisting of quotes. Do I trust them??...Not with our constitution, I don't!!! Now put your head back up into your ass, and somersault down the street, till you disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:19 PM

Couldn't resist that one!!

Ka-flump Ka-flump Ka-flump....

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM

"whoppers Obama has told in Ohio"--without one example.


I thought the "whoppers" must have been dealt with in a thread or a post that I missed.

I too would like to know a "whopper" Obama has told.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:18 PM

If you've not been watching the news, or reading this forum, listing them all would just get into an endless, 'No he didn't...yes he did'...they're all over the place. Ask Rig or Sawzaw...you've (generically) been, ignoring, smearing, and trashing them out, no matter what they say...and not all that they have brought up is false. Instead of addressing the issues, they just get called names, without anyone really looking into it. As I said before, seek out the truth, and let the chips fall where they may....instead of,'Hey! That's my candidate! He walks on water, and his shit don't stink! Say ANYTHING bad about him, and YOU must be crazy!'...Sorta stupid, don't you think?

When I went, and asked about the 'rally', I went with no pre-conceptions, just to find the facts...not color them to suit me. That way, a more accurate and objective opinion could be formed, for MY information. I said it like it came down. I didn't post it sway any one toward, or away from anyone. I wanted to find out, for myself.

If information you gather, can't get past some mental blockage you've erected for yourself, you end up dealing with less information...and, after all, intelligence is the ability to process information. Do I like Obama? NO! Do I trust Obama? NO! Do I like McCain? Not particularly! Do I trust McCain? Absolutely not! Would I like to like a candidate? When I think of all the people who this country has to draw from, and these are the two that got dredged up, I think, there is something seriously wrong!

Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:22 PM

"'I too would like to know a "whopper" Obama has told'"


             I, Barack Obama, will opt to take public financing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:24 PM

"So Ohio requirements are exactly what counts. And that's what Alice has told us about through her link."


               Obviously the link is wrong, I looked up the Ohio state statute and posted it about. Joe does not need a license if he is simply working for somebody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:31 PM

Thank you, Rig! Now watch the idiots either deny that one, or attack you!...BTW, there's more, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:33 PM

..Come to think of it, he was lying right out of the gate!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 11:51 PM

"I, Barack Obama, will opt to take public financing."

So you're suggesting that when he said that he was fully intending not to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Holy shit you guys are still talking about Joe the Plumber.

I saw the thread title popping up over and over today and I wondered "hmm, what could they be talking about on that thread?"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:14 AM

From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Holy shit you guys are still talking about Joe the Plumber.

I saw the thread title popping up over and over today and I wondered
.....

Hey, you just popped it up again!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM

Will someone provide a source for that quote from Obama about public financing?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM

(My guess is that no one will provide any source for Obama making such a pledge.)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:54 AM

McCain and Obama both signed a pledge. Rig is correct on that one. I'm sure he'll substantiate that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 03:53 AM

If it exists, I'd like to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM

RCP Home Latest Polls Videos Links Markets Sports    « Nat'l Poll: A Dead Heat | The RCP Blog Home Page | 40 Years Since RFK »
June 6, 2008
Public Financing for Obama?
Posted by BLAKE DVORAK | E-Mail This | Permalink | Email Author
For background on the public-financing debate, here's the NYT from March 2, 2007:

Senator John McCain joined Senator Barack Obama on Thursday in promising to accept a novel fund-raising truce if each man wins his party's presidential nomination.
The promises by Mr. McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Mr. Obama, Democrat of Illinois, are an effort to resuscitate part of the ailing public financing system for presidential campaigns. ...

On Thursday, a spokesman for Mr. McCain said that he would take up Mr. Obama on a proposal for an accord between the two major party nominees to rely just on public financing for the general election.

Such a pact would eliminate any financial edge one candidate might have and limit each campaign to $85 million for the general election. The two candidates would have to return any private donations that they had raised for that period.

Mr. Obama laid out his proposal last month to the Federal Election Commission, seeking an opinion on its legality. The commissioners formally approved it on Thursday.

The manager of Mr. McCain's campaign, Terry Nelson, said he welcomed the decision.

"Should John McCain win the Republican nomination, we will agree to accept public financing in the general election, if the Democratic nominee agrees to do the same," Mr. Nelson said.

A spokesman for Mr. Obama, Bill Burton, said, "We hope that each of the Republican candidates pledges to do the same."

Mr. Burton added that if nominated Mr. Obama would "aggressively pursue an agreement" with whoever was his opponent.

Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama have backed changing campaign finances.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:16 AM

I don't see the quote, "I, Barack Obama, will opt to take public financing." anywhere in that article. And the reason for that is because it doesn't exist. Not anywhere. Because Obama never said that. What I do see is this...

Mr. Burton added that if nominated Mr. Obama would "aggressively pursue an agreement" with whoever was his opponent.

The charge that Obama pledged to take public financing is just one more of the many lies that McCain and his people have been spreading about Obama.

Obama and his people did agressively pursue an agreement, but Obama and the McCain people were not able to come to mutually satisfactory terms.


"The Obama campaign said it held one meeting with McCain's team to try to work out conditions under which Obama would agree to accept public financing, including efforts to curtail the influence of outside groups including so-called 527s."

'"It was immediately clear that McCain's campaign had no interest in the possibility of an agreement," Obama spokesman Bill Burton said.'

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11202.html


Here's what Obama said about it at the time...

"Hi, this is Barack Obama.

I have an important announcement and I wanted all of you – the people who built this movement from the bottom-up – to hear it first. We've made the decision not to participate in the public-financing system for the general election. This means we'll be forgoing more than $80 million in public funds during the final months of this election.

It's not an easy decision, and especially because I support a robust system of public financing of elections. But the public financing of presidential elections as it exists today is broken, and we face opponents who've become masters at gaming this broken system. John McCain's campaign and the Republican National Committee are fueled by contributions from Washington lobbyists and special interest PACs. And we've already seen that he's not going to stop the smears and attacks from his allies running so-called 527 groups, who will spend millions and millions of dollars in unlimited donations.

From the very beginning of this campaign, I have asked my supporters to avoid that kind of unregulated activity and join us in building a new kind of politics – and you have. Instead of forcing us to rely on millions from Washington lobbyists and special interest PACs, you've fueled this campaign with donations of $5, $10, $20, whatever you can afford. And because you did, we've built a grassroots movement of over 1.5 million Americans. We've won the Democratic nomination by relying on ordinary people coming together to achieve extraordinary things.

You've already changed the way campaigns are funded because you know that's the only way we can truly change how Washington works. And that's the path we will continue in this general election. I'm asking you to try to do something that's never been done before. Declare our independence from a broken system, and run the type of campaign that reflects the grassroots values that have already changed our politics and brought us this far.

If we don't stand together, the broken system we have now, a system where special interests drown out the voices of the American people will continue to erode our politics and prevent the possibility of real change. That's why we must act. The stakes are higher than ever, and people are counting on us.

Every American who is desperate for a fair economy and affordable healthcare, who wants to bring our troops back from Iraq. Who hopes for a better education and future for his or her child, these people are relying on us. You and me. This is our moment and our country is depending on us. So join me, and declare your independence from this broken system and let's build the first general election campaign that's truly funded by the American people. With this decision this campaign is in your hands in a way that no campaign has ever been before. Now is the time to act. Thank you so much."


http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gG5SPm

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM

The way I look at Obama's so-called promise to accept public financing is two-fold:

1. First, it was done early and both candidates were talking about accepting it... That was at a time when McCain had to borrow money from a band using public fiancing as security... Then he started raising lots of money... So did Obama... McCain tried to get out of his pledge, if you recall, also... He would have possibly been able to pull it off but the Federal Election Commission didn't have the sufficent numbers for a quarum and therefore was not able to release McCain... But...

2. Secondly, and this takes us back to the run up to the invasion of Iraq... There were several weeks prior to Bush pulling the trigger where information was coming to the forefront questioning the assertions that had been laid out as a justification for the invasion... There were Scott Ritter, and Hans Blix and Joe Wilson's reports that Iraq wasn't really doing all the bad things that the Bush people had laid out... But Bush has allready huffed, puffed 'n bluffed so much that I guess he felt he couldn't turn back... I other words, Bush was inflexible to new information on the ground... And look where that got US??? So my thinking is that Obama showed in ***changing his mind*** a quality that had Goerge Bush possessed then might ahve avoided the worst foriegn policy decision since Vietnam... I want a president who is less concerned about his ego and more concerned about creating policies that work... Flexibility, in these difficult time, ain't a sin... It is a strenght...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:26 AM

Obama also said this...

"If I am the nominee, then I will make sure that our people talk to John McCain's people to find out if we are willing to abide by the same rules and regulations in respect to the general election." But, he added, "it would be presumptuous of me to start saying now that I'm locking myself into something when I don't even know if the other side is going to agree to it, and I'm not the nominee."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021503639_pf.html

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:28 AM

Obama did not make a promise to accept public funding. The only thing he promised was to try to come to a mutually acceptable agreement with McCain for the both of them to accept public funding.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

He agreed to take public financing if McCain did. McCain lived up to his promise, Obama did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

"If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election." --Barack Obama, answer to Midwest Democracy Network questionnaire, September 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

aggressively pursue an agreement

He pursued an agreement, and the two candidates were not able to find common ground. He did not say he would accept public money if the other candidate would. He only said he would try to come to some kind of agreement about it with the other candidate if the other candidate said he would accept public money.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

Let me just repeat that one more time in case anyone missed it the last time...

"aggressively pursue an agreement"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:30 AM

But "yes" was an insufficient response from McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM

McCain wasn't willing to forgo the help he was getting from PACs and 527 groups. Obama never said he would accept public money if McCain did. He said he would try to work out an agreement with McCain about the both of them accepting public money. The deal breaker was that McCain wasn't willing to give up the help he was getting from the PACs and the 527 groups.

Obama wasn't willing to be held just to the public money if McCain was going to be getting the outside help, and Obama did not want to be helped by PACs and 527 groups because he feels that they are a big part of the problem with campaign financing. He feels they are a part of what makes our system broken at this time. After he announced that he wouldn't be accepting public money, he instructed his supporters to not give any more money to any PACs of 527.

Obama's stance has been the far more principled one from start to finish on the subject of campaign finance.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM

*any PACS or 527s

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

How would he stop PAC's and 527's?

http://www.powerpac.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

They could agree to do what Obama has done and tell all of their supporters to not give money to the PACs on their behalf. They could also tell the PACs to not do any campaigning or any advertising for them.

But the idea of accepting public money is really a sham as long as candidates are getting help from the PACs and 527s. As long as they're doing that, an agreement to opt into the public money is just a facade.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:01 AM

McCain got just barely zero per cent of his funds from PAC's. Why should zero percent have been a dealbreaker from "yes?":

Individual contributions $193,991,664 54%
PAC contributions $1,375,110 0%
Candidate self-financing $0 0%
Federal Funds $84,103,800 24%
Other $162,406,443 45%


These from:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.php?cid=N00006424&cycle=2008

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

The PAC's and 527's work for both sides. The reality is, Obama was able to get a lot more money through George Soros, so he reneged on his pledge.
                  But I guess it all depends on what your definition of "is," is!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:02 AM

I'll post this again, too, from Obama's announcement...


"It's not an easy decision, and especially because I support a robust system of public financing of elections. But the public financing of presidential elections as it exists today is broken, and we face opponents who've become masters at gaming this broken system. John McCain's campaign and the Republican National Committee are fueled by contributions from Washington lobbyists and special interest PACs. And we've already seen that he's not going to stop the smears and attacks from his allies running so-called 527 groups, who will spend millions and millions of dollars in unlimited donations.

From the very beginning of this campaign, I have asked my supporters to avoid that kind of unregulated activity and join us in building a new kind of politics – and you have. Instead of forcing us to rely on millions from Washington lobbyists and special interest PACs, you've fueled this campaign with donations of $5, $10, $20, whatever you can afford. And because you did, we've built a grassroots movement of over 1.5 million Americans. We've won the Democratic nomination by relying on ordinary people coming together to achieve extraordinary things.

You've already changed the way campaigns are funded because you know that's the only way we can truly change how Washington works. And that's the path we will continue in this general election. I'm asking you to try to do something that's never been done before. Declare our independence from a broken system, and run the type of campaign that reflects the grassroots values that have already changed our politics and brought us this far"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

Documentation for the charge that Obama got more money from Soros?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:08 AM

The help from PACs and 527s I'm talking about is not money given to the candidates' campaigns, but money that the organizations are using themselves to promote a particular candidate. A lot of PACs and all 527s operate independently of the candidate and their campaign. Obama didn't like the idea of either candidate doing an end run around an agreement to take public money by relying on these outside organizations doing their dirty work for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

Obama can't control what PACs do on his behalf. McCain can't control what PAC's do on his behalf.

So the deal breaker from "yes" was, "No, you can't control what the PAC's do on your behalf."

So what kind of offer was that in the first place?

An illusory offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:43 AM

The candidates and their campaigns could exert a lot of control over what those organizations did on their behalf. And if the organizations didn't cooperate, the candidates could denounce them and their efforts.

People seem to forget that the PACs and 527s arose in the first place as a way to get around the campaign finance laws. So what point is there in agreeing to take public money to finance their campaigns if they're going to be circumventing the law by relying on the PACs and 527s to do their dirty work for them? There is no point to it - it would be all just for show.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM

"Documentation for the charge that Obama got more money from Soros?"



                   MoveOn.org

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM

Soros and MoveOn's contributions to Obama's campaign are miniscule compared to the financial support and the advertising that Obama has been able to generate on his own without their help.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 04:34 PM

Oh, he was only kidding, anyway!..For Pete's sake, people, these are POLITICIANS..what did you expect?..a clear answer, and the truth???????

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:17 PM

From HERE:

Although it might seem like Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher is everywhere these days, he wasn't at John MCain's rally this morning in the small town of Defiance, Ohio.

Except that nobody told the Republican presidential nominee that.

And so, in the midst of his speech, McCain called out to Wurzelbacher, as he often does on the campaign trail.

"Joe's with us today," McCain told an audience of about 6,000 people. "Joe where are you? Where is Joe? Is Joe with us today?" he asked.

When Joe failed to appear, an awkward silence settled over the crowd.

Then McCain, politician that he is, made lemonade out of lemons. "All right," he told the crowd. "Well, you're all Joe the Plumbers, so all of you stand up!"

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

No Show Joe? You betcha!


http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/30/1616435.aspx

Poor John McCain can't catch a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM

Well nobody can argue that he's not a real plumber now!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

Ha! LOL. I got that one. Excellent, subtle.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:05 AM

"Jones-Kelly also has denied any connections between the computer checks on Wurzelbacher and her support for Obama. She donated $2,500 this year to the Obama campaign.

Ohio Inspector General Thomas P. Charles is investigating whether the child-support check on Wurzelbacher was legal."

That explains it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:19 AM

...or not, depending on what the Inspector General finds.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM

Well Well Well.

According to CC, Mac is a prejudged to be a bum because he gave $500,000 of other people's money to Khalidi and Jones-Kelly may be innocent of illegally investigating Joe for personal political reasons even though she gave $2,500 of her own personal hard earned money to Obama's campaign.

Logically that would equate to Mac being automatically found guilty of illegally investigating someone who voiced dissent to Khalidi's policies in order to defend Khalidi.

The only foil to this would be Obama is a good guy by default and Khalidi is a bad guy by default.

In that case, Obama would have had a close personal relationship with a bad guy and gave him money to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:12 AM

What is this preoccupation Republicans have with plumbers? As I recall, they didn't do Nixon much good.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:32 AM

I'm not criticizing McCain for contributing a half million dollars to Khalidi.

I'm criticizing McCain for being a phony hypocritical liar for pointing fingers at Obama for something he has done himself (to a much larger extent).

I personally don't care whether or not McCain gave money to Khalidi. But I think he's showing us all what a lousy candidate he is for the presidency when he does things like this, because he ends up looking like a guy with no clothes on, wearing a bag over his head. He seems to think that if he can't see us, we can't see that he hasn't got any clothes on. We can see that he is pointing fingers at others for things he's done even more of himself, but because he doesn't know we can see these things, he thinks that means we can't very clearly see what a lying hypocrite he is. People that lacking in intelligence and good judgement are dangerous in the office of the presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

Yeah, Carol, and it is insulting... He must think the American people are absolute morons...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

"People that lacking in intelligence and good judgement are dangerous in the office of the presidency."


                      Knowing this, it's amazing to me that anyone would support Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:51 PM

Just keep that bag over that head... everything will become clear in time...

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:26 PM

Intellegence??? One guy was at the top of his class at Harvard, the other almost at the very bottom at the Naval Acadmey...

Judgement??? One guy not only thought that the Iraq War was a good idea but even after every excuse for starting it was debunked still thought iot was a good idea... The other guy said it was a dumb idea right from the very beginning... Oh, incidently, the guy who thought it was just peachy to invade Iraq now talks of "victory", something that even General Petraous has said ain't gonna happen...

So the choice is simple...

(Well, Bobertz... There are alot of folks who think just the way that McCain thinks...)

So??? Does that make them intellegent or wise???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:04 PM

I just recieved this from a friend, it's about all those Joe's

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water for coffee. The
water is clean because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum
water-quality standards. With his first swallow, he takes his daily
pills, which are safe because some stupid commie liberal fought to
ensure that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical
plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid
medical insurance - now Joe gets it too, although he is not in the union.

He cooks breakfast- bacon and eggs - safe to eat because some girly-man
liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry and the
Democratic Congress - led by a woman - prevented the FDA from caving in
to the meat industry.

After his shower - with properly labeled soap and shampoo, thanks to the
FDA - Joe walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air is clean
because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop
industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to a subway station for his
government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in
parking and transportation fees because some Prius-loving liberal fought
for affordable public transportation.

Joe has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement,
paid holidays and vacation because socialist, lazy, liberal union
members fought and died for these working standards and the right to
unionize.

At noon, Joe makes a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's
deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless liberal
wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the
banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has a below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal
decided that Joe and the nation would be better off if he was educated
and earned more money over his lifetime...helped by his degree at a
state funded university.

Joe visits his dad at his boyhood home - driving there on a state-funded
highway. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by
Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural
loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal
stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

Joe's father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some
wine-drinking, brie-eating, French-speaking elitist made sure he could
take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

On his ride home he listens to Rush complaining that liberals are
ruining the country and only conservatives are moral and know what they
are doing. Rush doesn't mention that the Republicans have fought against
every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. And Joe
doesn't think about it - he is too busy being a proud dittohead who
agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives!
After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of
themselves, just like I have."


Have a good day Joe

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:35 PM

Joe the P is clearly an economic ignoramus. He invents history. He has baseless opinions on foreign policy. He's obviously as well-qualified for a Cabinet position as Palin is to be Veep, If he only knew how to gut a moose....

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

And all the while, they both seemed to be better informed than Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:18 PM

Explain why you would think so Rig?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:21 PM

"pointing fingers at Obama for something he has done himself "

I don't recall McCain criticizing Obama for giving money to Khalidi.

He is criticizing Obama for associating with Khalidi and Ayers.

Did Mac associate with Khalidi and Ayers? Did Ayers hold a party for him to launch his political career? Did Mac sit on boards with either of them? Did Mac's kids go to school with Ayers Kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:37 PM

McCain funded someone he accuses of being a radical extremist, and he consorted with terrorists (G. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:42 PM

I held a party for MaCain but no one would come not even MaCain.
MaCain's a real asshole for not coming to his own party, ungrateful & UnAmerican, if I were a former Weatherman the news might latch onto this & maybe smear Obama for because I'm voting for hm even after hosting a MaCain party.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

It makes sense to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:48 AM

It makes sense that it would make sense to you, Rig.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:19 AM

What's goin' on, Rigs???

Seems the closer to the elction we get the less and less informed you appear to be about who is who and what is going on... That's kinda scarey when you think that JtP is better "informed" about things than is Obama... I mean, that is not only wrong but insulting...

I expect more out of you, buddy... Yer standards have been seriously compromised (dumbed down)...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:55 PM

Bobert is passin' out free mental evaluashins today. Didn't say what his medical degree was but I flunked.

Guess the THC content in my blood was too low.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:35 PM

CC: Did you forget the questions?

Did Mac associate (the Obamas had dinner with the Khalidis on a regular basis and had private discussions) with Khalidi and Ayers?___________

Did Ayers hold a party for him to launch his political career?___________

Did Mac sit on boards with either of them?___________

Did Mac's kids go to school with Ayers Kids?___________

Then there is the logic that if it is OK for Obama to do something, it is therefor OK for Mac to do whatever it was that Obama did.

And vice versa, whatever Mac does that was wrong was also wrong if Obama does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

Barry, thanks for the Joe email. It is excellent!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:06 PM

What either of them did with or to Ayers has no reflection of them or their characters at all, give it a rest.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 07:18 PM

McCain lives in Washington and sometime Arizona, an awfully longway from Chicago. Which makes those pretty silly questions, Sawzaw.

Incidentally, are you going to stick around once the election is over, seeing as you don't seem to have any interest in folk music?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:15 PM

Yo, Sawz...

16-17 years workin' with mental health clients and professionals and I reckon I learned a thing 'er two...

In other words: yer nuts...lol...

Okay, maybe not nuts but you could use a little tweakin' with some meds and counselin' 'cause you are paranoid and angry...

But, hey, lotta that goin' 'round...lol...even if it ain't all that funny...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:37 PM

Paranoid?

With Boss Hogg after me all tha time I have to really watch out. I am tellin you he's real.

He stole my doors right out from under me one time.

Mr Obama, Please make him go away. ;-}

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:27 PM

I see the person who is asking me all of those questions is admitting defeat. They are defining their criteria for the question of who associates with terrorists so narrowly, that nobody but Obama could possibly fit the definition. That's an admission of defeat if ever I saw one.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM

When you can't answer questions, you are defeated.

You got exactly what you asked for but you do not reciprocate.

You can ask me the narrowest question in the world.

Hey Bobert. I heard that when you work with crazies long enough it drives you nuts. Is that true?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 09:56 PM

I can answer them. But doing so accomplishes nothing because the criteria have been narrowed down almost to Obama's street address. That is the tactic of someone who knows they haven't got a legitimate argument and they're now shooting from the hip.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM

If it is Beyond your capabilities, So be it.

Maybe this one will pass your requirements:

Did McCain ever meet Khalidi or discuss anything with him?__________

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:45 PM

Toledo police records clerk charged with misconduct in "Joe The Plumber" info inquiry

TOLEDO BLADE STAFF

    A Toledo police records clerk has been charged with "gross misconduct" for allegedly making an improper inquiry for information regarding the man known as "Joe the Plumber," city officials said Tuesday afternoon.

    Julie McConnell, a police employee since April, 1995, requested information Oct. 16 on Samuel Wurzelbacher, who gained national attention when he asked presidential candidate Barack Obama a question. Authorities said this was done for non-law enforcement purposes and was a violation of department policy and state policy governing law regarding the use of the Law Enforcement Automated Data System database.

    A discipline hearing will be scheduled within the next 10 days to discuss the matter. Ms. McConnell is a member of AFSCME Local 7.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 11:34 PM

Tell me the point that is being made rather than expecting me to waste my time on rhetorical questions. Otherwise, the questioner is on their own out there in the kiddie end of the pool.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:10 AM

Do you need help understanding the question?

You seem to be trying to say that Mac gave money to Khalidi and that is more wrong than Obama's association with Khalidi and also giving him money because of the amount of money involved.

I am trying to understand the logic in your scoring system for your assesment of guilt.

So far it eludes me.

Seems you mostly base it on the amount of money that came from Mac's outfit when Mac Didn't know Khalidi or meet him or associate with him.

The Obamas are personal friends of the Khalidis, dine with them regularly have political discussions but that is not wrong because he gave less money to him than Mac did.

So a series of simple yes or no questions should reveal the logic here, if there is any logic and not just ideological biases. In that case there is no logic to be revealed, just emotional knee jerk reactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:19 AM

I'm not the one who has brought up the issue of who is cozy with the wrong kind of people. The one asking me the questions is the one who has done that, and they have done it as though Obama is the only one who has such associations, and is therefore less acceptable than McCain for that reason.

What I have been doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of that approach, and pointing out that McCain is no better than Obama when it comes to questionable associations.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:34 AM

Poor ol' Joe the Plumber has been kicked to the curb on his own thread and he ain't none to happy about it... Word on the street is that if ya'll don't get back to him that he's gonna pull his support for McCain and endorse Obama...

As fir the if-can't-beat-'um-join-'um theory, Sawz, no... You can't like, ahhhhh, "catch" nebtal illness from being around it... The stuff ain't contageous...

As for associations, however, I heard that John McCain hung atound commies night and day for 4 years... I recokon that makes him a commie???

(But, Bobert.... He was a POW...)

Hey, if I have it right, the argument seems to be that an association is an association is an association is....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:12 AM

"I'm not the one who has brought up the issue of who is cozy with the wrong kind of people."


               No, but why would you assume Gee Gordon Liddy is the "wrong kind of people?" There's a real possibility that Al Franken will be elected to the Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Wasn't it Al Franken who once advised folks to shoot ATF agents in the head???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:38 AM

Why, so you wouldn't hurt them?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 09:54 AM

I'm not assuming Liddy is the wrong kind of people. I'm saying that he's no better than Ayers.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:47 AM

CC: I thought it was OK for people to bring up things here and ask questions

Is Obama any better than McCain?

And if so how are you making this judgement?

Is it based on McCains honesty about being friends with Liddy or on Obama's denials of associating with Ayers?

Is it based on what Liddy's group blew up and who they killed or on what Ayers group blew up and who they killed?

whisch of these two statements is "better" than the other:

"Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests"
OR
"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at."

Do you have your buzz on yet Bobert? You sound awful grumpy today.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:53 AM

No, he's not any "better" than McCain. He's just the candidate that I would rather see become the president of this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:29 AM

Your'e getting there CC. Some day you will be PC.

Bobert; There are voluntary associations and incarcerations.

If Ayers locked up Obama for 4 years and tortured him. it would be a wee bit different than an associaton.

Maybe if the VC threw a party for McCain to launch his political career, you could call it an association with terrorists.

Or maybe if Mac and the VC were handin out money to Osama, it would be an association with terrorists.

I am purdy dang shore Mac would have avoided that association with the VC if he could have.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM

There's no such thing as PC. That's just a term some people made up in order to try to control the flow of discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:07 AM

No, Sawz, I don't have a buzz on... Kinda going thru a buzzless phase but nevermind that...

Seems to me that, if I'm not mistaken, Liddy and Ayers have one thing in common and that is that they are both ex-cons...

One of them, however, must not have taken to the rehabilitation as he has advocated killing federal agents...

Think there's more than a little hypocrisy and illogic going on here in bashing Obama for knowing Bill Ayers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

Well in that case you will never reach your goal CC, no social justice.

Buzzless Bobert:

How do you score the wrongness of advocating the killing of federal officers against the wrongness of the actual killing of guards during the robbery of and armored car?

Or the statement "kill your parents"?

And is being arrested and serving your time more wrong than becoming a fugitive and snatching purses to live for 10 years before turning yourself in?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:46 PM

John Hawkins: Changing directions here, one of the things that people who try to discredit you often bring up is your comment back in 1994, "If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head." What prompted that comment and other similar ones and do you regret giving a caller that advice?

G. Gordon Liddy: Well, no. Because as usual, people remember part of what I said, but not all of what I said. What I did was restate the law. I was talking about a situation in which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes smashing into a house, doesn't say who they are, and their guns are out, they're shooting, and they're in the wrong place. This has happened time and time again. The ATF has gone in and gotten the wrong guy in the wrong place. The law is that if somebody is shooting at you, using deadly force, the mere fact that they are a law enforcement officer, if they are in the wrong, does not mean you are obliged to allow yourself to be killed so your kinfolk can have a wrongful death action. You are legally entitled to defend yourself and I was speaking of exactly those kind of situations. If you're going to do that, you should know that they're wearing body armor so you should use a head shot. Now all I'm doing is stating the law, but all the nuances in there got left out when the story got repeated.

John Hawkins: Yeah, that's how it always seems to go. Now in your newest book, you say that Watergate was actually "not to repair a telephone tap but to collect dirt on an alleged call-girl ring at the DNC headquarters" and that the Watergate burglars were looking for photos of John Dean's wife. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

G. Gordon Liddy: It's a very long, detailed story and after I publicized it, I and a lot of other people were sued by John Dean and his wife. It took 8 years to get them to court and when we finally did, they dropped the charges.

John Dean thereafter procured a woman named Ida "Maxie" Wells and provided her with his lawyer. She did sue and we had a trial in which all of these issues were aired and I won. Briefly, here's what happened.

Back in those days, the FBI was investigating 3 different call-girl rings that were operating at the time in Washington DC. One of them was operating out of the Columbia Plaza apartments which is across the
street from the Watergate. According to the supervising assistant district attorney, whose name was John Rudy, he was told by the FBI that they had established a connection with the ring to a person in the Democratic National Committee headquarters. That person was described as either a secretary or as an administrative assistant and a female. When the Democrats themselves found the wiretap that everybody supposed was on Mr. O'Brien, there was never any wiretap on Mr. O'Brien, the wiretap was on the phone used by that woman. The burglars, when they were apprehended, were not anywhere near Mr. O'Brien's office. They were clustered around the desk of that woman, they had set up the photographic equipment on the desk of that woman. The way the call-girl ring operated was by a photographic brochure with pictures of the girls (in it). John Dean knew that, this was a John Dean operation. The question then comes to mind; "Well how would John Dean, counsel to the President, know something like that"? Well, that's because his then paramour, now his wife, Maureen, when she was not shacked up with John, was the roommate of the madame.

Of course, we knew the identity of the madame, her name was Heidi Rikan. She was a German national and she operated under the street name of Cathy Dieter. When Maureen Dean wrote her book, 'Mo': A Woman's View of Watergate, which was sort of autobiographical, she included her wedding pictures to John. There, one of her attendants, in all her glory, was the madame. So, that's how John found out. But, you can read all about it in the book!

John Hawkins: I look forward to doing that. You know one of the things that has always puzzled me about Watergate, was that as we now know, Nixon absolutely buried McGovern in 1972. So, I've always wondered why anyone in the Nixon White House thought it was necessary to do something like Watergate. Can you shed some light on that subject?

G. Gordon Liddy: Well sure. Now remember when all of this was; this was prior to the Democrats having selected their candidate. No one knew who the candidate was going to be. Before he broke down in front of

the Union Leader Office, Mr. Muskie was thought to be very Lincolnian and to be a strong candidate. We never knew whether or not Ted Kennedy would make a try and despite his Chappaquiddick troubles, it was thought that he would be a potent foe. So the political intelligence apparatus was set into effect because no one knew who the candidate was going to be.
But, the plan that I drew up did not include going into the DNC because that's not where you get political intelligence on an opposing Presidential candidate. Think about it. We had the committee to reelect the President. That's what ran the Nixon campaign in 1972, not the RNC. The RNC & the DNC raised money, but there's always a special organization that is designed to run the Presidential campaign. That is what one would spy on, not the DNC or RNC..

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

Who has done the most with their life since then, Sawz??? Yer guy has advocating shooting people... No, not just anyone but federal agents... The other has gone on to become a professor and an advocate for better education of our kids...

You have some seriously misplaced values... I mean, so misplaced that I am sticking with my diagnosis that you suffer from serious paranoi and a major personality disorder...

Doctor Bobert would guess that you are not involved in yer community, that you don't do any volunteer work, that people in yer town wouldn't know you from Adam... That's my hunch...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:27 PM

"advocate for better education of our kids..."

So am I.

Suppose Obama took that $500,000 he spent on snazzin' up his plane and replacin' the American flag with his logo and spent it on education?

Now what was the results of his and Comrade Ayers $110,000,000 foray into improving public education again? I can't hear you. Just exactly what was that money spent on?

Dang, that would buy a lot of 'puters an softwares an lunches for those poor kids up in Chicago.

Not involved? Alls I got to do is vote fer O and he will fix everything with rich folks' money. Won't cost me a cent. In fact I am goin' to get a refund even if I didn't pay anything to be refunded.

Don't take no rocket surgeon to figger out that parent participation, involvement and support of the childern, school and teachers is the key to education. All the money in the world won't fix that.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:42 PM

Hey, Sawz...

Ain't you the guy who is supportin' the guy who doesn't even know how many houses he owns???

The plane??? Snazzin' up and gettin a 30 year old airplane safe to fly not only him but some 100 memebrs of the press corp si a different subject... I know a little about airplanes and they need alot or work from time to time... That's what Obama did... He bought a "beater", refurbrished it the best he could and over a hundred people been flyin' on that sumabich ever since...

Oh, so that is a crime??? Heck, this "beater" was in such bad shape that it even almost crashed once???

But now Obama is the bad guy, Sawz???

Come on, man...

Yer arguments are bcoming tiresome...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:14 PM

Oh, there's definitely such a thing as social justice. There's just no such thing as "politically correct".

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:16 PM

Ayers was not involved with the killing of that guard. The people who did that had already split off from the group that Ayers belonged to before they did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

When did I say I was supportin' anybody?

Is the beater that Obama bought another Bobert fact?

http://www.northamericanair.com/pressrelease.aspx?id=99

He leases it from Northwest airlines. It had near misses on the ground due to human error. How much did those custom embroidered seats cost? How many school lunches? Get out the slide rool. 'Course planes can't fly safely without custom embroidered seats. What was that about corporate excess? Wasting the stock holders money?

From CBS News' Allison O'Keefe:

Barack Obama's new campaign plane is nothing short of grand. Well, for the candidate that is.

Obama's section of the plane rivals that of any first class. Recently the front cabin of the Boeing 757 was retrofitted to install four individual chairs that resemble La-Z-Boys. They are free-standing and made of plush leather with pockets on the sides. There is also a booth which seats four for a meeting or a meal.

His chair has his name and campaign logo embroidered on the back top -- "Obama '08" on one line and "President" underneath. To one side is a small table stacked with newspapers ready for the candidate's arrival. The table of the booth is always covered in snacks and cheese and is where Obama spends most of his time during flights meeting with staff and sitting for the occasional interview.



Maybe this is what you are lookin for. It is all I can find:

Biden's Crisis Remarks Reverberate
By John M. Broder New York Times

The campaign of Senator John McCain is trying to capitalize on some potentially ambiguous words from Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, at a Seattle fund-raiser Sunday night.

Mr. Biden predicted that Senator Barack Obama, if he is elected president, will quickly face a challenge from some hostile power or terrorist group eager to test the resolve of the rookie chief executive.

"Mark my words," Mr. Biden warned at the Seattle fund-raiser, according to reports from network producers traveling with him, "It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember, I said it standing here, if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're going to have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy."

He added, "He's going to have to make some really tough - I don't know what the decision's going to be, but I promise you it will occur. As a student of history and having served with seven presidents, I guarantee you it's going to happen." He said he could envision four or five scenarios that might arise to challenge the new president, citing Russia or the Middle East as possible sources of trouble.

He then called on the donors to be prepared to rise to Mr. Obama's defense because he will need to make some difficult and unpopular choices in response. "I've forgotten more about foreign policy than most of my colleagues know, so I'm not being falsely humble with you," Mr. Biden told the donors, by way of reassuring them of his and Mr. Obama's toughness and preparation. "I think I can be value added, but thisguy has it. This guy has it."

Mr. Biden was not clear about the "testing" Mr. Kennedy underwent upon taking office. His biggest early debacle - the Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961 - was conceived by the CIA under the Eisenhower administration, not by some foreign power. His biggest test, the Cuban missile crisis, came in October 1962.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 08 - 11:08 PM

Mac houses are investments held in a blind trust.

And O didn't know haw many seats was on his leased plane. He said there was no room for 3 guys from newspapers that endorsed Mac so they made the "tough" decision to kick 'em off. Then he discovered 3 extra seats for Ebony and Glamor and Essence magazines.

Musta had Joe counting tha seats.

"Look, John's last-minute economic plan does nothing to tackle the number one job facing the middle class, and it happens to be, as Barack says, a three-letter word: jobs. J-O-B-S,"

At least he got the one counted right.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:29 AM

Bye bye, Joe the Plumber.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:40 AM

Sawzaw, it's all academic now. You didn't accomplish what you wanted, but that's all over.

Noting that you have never posted on a music thread, Sawzaw, I deduce that you are here just to politick against Barack Obama. Well, since he won the election, I presume you will be leaving us now.

Goodbye, Sawzaw.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:25 AM

Don:

I am happy for you and Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:49 PM

I havent read all the entire thread..
but I do recall hearing that when people checked into the business -that is has 2 employees (joe & his boss) and sales of about $250,000. Which is enough to support two people anyway after accounting for expenses etc.

In my printing business, its pretty much the rule of thumb that your sales should be at least $125,000 per employee. So if Joe was thinking about buying his bosses business that makes $250,000 he wouldnt even be affected by the tax increase for those who make over $250,000 income.

And its also not impossible for him as an employee to buy the business.
Often the owner will settle for a payment plan over a period of time - when selling to an employee or group of employees.

He was obviously used as a propaganda tool by McCains campaign, on the other hand he got millions worth of free publicity which he can now capitalize on.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:09 PM

"Seems to me that, if I'm not mistaken, Liddy and Ayers have one thing in common and that is that they are both ex-cons..."Bobert


In actuality, Bobert, William Ayers was never convicted and served no time.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Beer
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM

Joe Who??
Gone.
No more to be heard of.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:27 PM

Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers turned themselves in on December 3, 1980, in New York, with substantial media coverage. Charges were dropped for Ayers.

the above from the Wikipedia page on the Weatherman organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:50 PM

Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers were fugitives for 10 years, they were on FBI wanted posters.

They supported them selves by snatching purses and other "activities".

They eventually went on trial but were acquitted because of mistakes made by investigators.

After acquittal Bill said he was "guilty as hell, free as a bird"

Did Liddy resist arrest or anything?

Did he run away and hide like a chickenshit weasel?

Does he run away call the police when someone asks him questions?

Did he bomb a police station and then call the police for protection?

Yer guy has advocating shooting people... No, not just anyone but federal agents.

Yer guy has advocated "kill your parents"

Yer guy was one of four authors of a book that stated "WE are Communist Women and men."

Ayers: "we stole wallets and purses without much concern for our victims."

"It was a risky business that could reel out of control without warning. We were trying to learn artfulness and stealth, and stealing purses was definitely from the old school. More important, these papers were unreliable, and had a short shelf life. As soon as they were reported missing, everything stopped working, and it could prove disastrous to buy a car, for example, or rent an apartment."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:00 PM

So, Joe the Plumber and Joe Six-Pack are so last week.

Now, the big question is, will Bill Ayers get an invitation to the White House? If he doesn't, does that make another non-issue? How about Rev. Wright? How about Obama's Kenyan birth record?

I hope they're ALL non-issues. It's time to get down to the business of ending the wars and fixing the economy. After that, maybe we can fix our health care and our schools.

Obama was elected President by a landslide. He is the president the American people want, whether his detractors want to accept that or not. And if his detractors believe in their country and its democratic process as much as they claim to, why waste any more time trying to destroy him? There's no room for questioning the will of the people in this election - this is not 2000 or 2004, when Bush barely squeaked by.

-Joe the Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:20 PM

Bill Ayers will be appointed Secretary of Education. Obama's Kenyan birth record will be sent to Iran so they can blackmail him with it, and Reverend Wright will self-destruct on January twentieth.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

Thanks for the assist, Eb...

Well, gol danged!!! Here the righties have been jumpin' all over Ayers as if he were comparable to Liddy... Liddy is 100 times worse...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 07:33 PM

Letter in Thursday's Guardian from one David Hall in London:

"Yes we can." So Joe the plumber was beaten by Bob the builder.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:47 PM

Kevin, for US consumption you might have to say that "Bob the Builder", whose slogan is in fact "Can we do it? Yes we can!", is a UK cartoon character.

But I thought the quote from the letter was great. Admittedly I have an unfair advantage, being married to an Englishwoman. ( Kendall has the same unfair advantage).

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 09:57 PM

This could be the hour for Bob the Builder in the USA as well, what with that slogan.

Here is a link about a Bob the Builder event in Oregon right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:11 PM

Bob the Builder is shown on many public television stations in the US. I expect that parents and children in the US know a lot about Bob the Builder...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22bob+the+builder%22+%22public+television%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 10:18 PM

Not necessarily-- unless they have had children who watched those cartoons..

Some will catch the reference and some won't.

No harm in helping it along.

By the way, Carol, thanks for all your work in North Carolina. It really paid off. Now all we have to wait for is Missouri.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:27 AM

Hey Rig:

That is Comrade Ayers. "we are Communist women and men"

"We need a revolutionary communist party in order to lead the struggle, give coherence and direction to the fight, seize power and build the new society."

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:46 AM

And if we let any communists into government, they might nationalize the banks.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 05:16 PM

Sawz-
I suggest that you don't vote for Mr. Ayres.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Alice
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:24 PM

in retrospect, Joe the Plumber (click)

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:25 PM

Now he is going to head a watchdog org. to make sure the politicians do their jobs:

From National Review

NRO: So what's next for Joe the Plumber? Will you run for Congress?

JTP: Well, I won't be the next guy on The Bachelor. I don't plan on being a country music star, and I have no interest in Congress for at least ten years. I'm hoping this watchdog group comes to fruition and that will be what I spend most of my time on for the next few years to come.

I'm starting two websites, which are still getting up and running, but we're getting incredible feedback. The first website, secureourdream.com, is going to be a watchdog group to make sure that we hold not only the Democrats but also the Republicans accountable and make sure that they remember that they're working for us. Too many times they get on the Hill and they forget that — they get a sense of entitlement. We want to take that sense of entitlement away and make sure they're working for us and not the other way around. If that interest was there prior to the bailout, maybe we could have headed that off.

The second website, secureourdream.org, is going to be a charity. Americans give more money to charity than any other nation in the world and that's where I think spreading the wealth should start.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:47 PM

Alan Keyes is the politician he looks up to?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:02 PM

I rather thought he'd find a way to parlay his 15 minutes of fame into something more. And I note that "I have no interest in Congress for at least ten years"
..............................

Americans give more money to charity than any other nation in the world

That's a bit questionable, at least when it comes to giving money internationally. See here Charity across the world - showing the USA as almost at the bottom of table per head of population.

Maybe he was talking about giving at a local level - sort of "charity begins at home". I don't know how the comparative figure work out there. (But of course "begins" isn't the same as "finishes".)

Maybe Joe's watchdog group could find time to look at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:18 PM

McGrath - When American right-wingers talk about giving money to charity, it's been my experience that they are usually talking about giving money to churches. That money is then used to promote their own personal political agendas, and to freeze non-believers out of the community it terms of commerce and political participation. It's still tax deductable, which never made any sense to me, so they still call it charitable giving.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

More oversimplification by our dean of the half-truth.

Some churches give to their own causes and some do real charity--charity which would be recognized as such by any thinking person.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:28 PM

I'm only going to respond in this manner: When churches organize people to go on missions in poor places in the world, they do indeed raise the standard of living for a lot of the folks they come into contact with. The price the indigenous population pays for that is to consent to be converted to the brand of religion that these missionaries represent.
                Each individual will have to make up his/her own mind as to whether or not this is a good or a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:48 PM

So what about left-wingers in the USA when it comes to charity giving?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

There are left wing charities, in some cases, are like left wing government. They take in huge amounts in donations, but often eat up most of the money in administration. The United Way has been like that in the past, though I haven't heard much about them lately.
                         There are organizations like "Habitat for Humanity," who build houses for poor people, but get into disputes with other groups when they are found to be giving houses to people who are illegally in the country. And there are self proclaimed charitable groups, organized along lines for specific purposes, like the Sierra Club, who profess to be in favor of environmental issues, but are actually more interested in their own political agenda.
                         In the end, I suppose, left wing charity is mostly that which is dispensed through government.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:19 PM

Rig made the blanket assertion:

When churches organize people to go on missions in poor places in the world, they do indeed raise the standard of living for a lot of the folks they come into contact with. The price the indigenous population pays for that is to consent to be converted to the brand of religion that these missionaries represent.

I grant you that this has been fairly common, but it's far from universally true. The Quaker (Friends) and the Unitarian-Universalist efforts, just for instance, are not proselytizing, and I expect that there are a number of other missions that are similar.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:48 PM

Wow, haven't checked on Joe the Plumber fir a few days and geeze.... Seeems ahs got relgion and is off to become a missionary...

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:44 AM

You don't have to go overseas to find churches doing good things without trying to convert. After Katrina, churches were some of the first groups to help out--and they did not insist those they helped out be believers.

In addition to being some of the first on the scene--much faster than government, since many were already there-- they also were some of the most effective--since they knew the conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:20 PM

He's back! Poor Joe. McCain ruined his life.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/81035-joe-the-plumber-tears-into-john-mccain

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

"McCain was trying to use me," Wurzelbacher said,

Verrrrrrry Goooooood, Joe. A little late, but you got it, finally.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:44 PM

Whether he believes that or not, it got him back in the news. Is he getting ready to run for something, now the the Democrats have screwed things up so badly?

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:58 PM

He's certainly stupid and ill-educated enough to be a prime candidate for the Tea-Partiers. They like that.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Joe the Plumber
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 08:21 AM

It doesn't seem like "educated," in the traditional sense, translates into competent government, though, given what's gone on lately.