BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

When you're single and your friends are all married, they encourage you to get married too.
When you are childless, and surrounded by the fecundity of others, they encourage you to join in. 'Have kids, you'll fell fulfilled' [sic]
People who have found religion also suffer from this urge to share. Often whether you wish to do so or not.
A drowning person will clutch at straws they say. They will also clutch at anything else, and if it happens to be you they grab, you may go down with them.
Keep your personal beliefs to yourself!
One person's good news, is another's bad tidings.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

This is a long thread and I've only been able to skim much of it. I hesitate to add my two cents into such a contentious area, but here it is anyway. It's long and rambling and I hope it makes some sense. I promise it is written with deep respect for people and beliefs on all sides of this debate.

I am a Unitarian Universalist minister by profession, and a religious humanist in my belief. I have served in congregational, hospital and hospice settings. What I say comes not from my own religious beliefs, but from my professional work as a chaplain in clinical settings, serving people of all faiths.

I don't know whether it was right that the nurse in this case was fired. Since the article relies almost entirely on her statements, it's impossible to know what really happened. She may believe that she was not being overbearing, but the patient's experience may have been very different. Her previous habit of passing out prayer cards is a bit of a red flag, but we just don't know.

If a patient requests prayer, then it is absolutely appropriate for the medical practitioner, if they feel comfortable, to offer one. It is equally appropriate for a practitioner to pray on their own, in private and in their own tradition, for any patient - that is a sign of care and a way of focusing the practitioner's energy on behalf of those she or he serves. The patient need never know - that kind of prayer is personal.

When a practitioner offers prayer or initiates a conversation about their own religion it crosses a line for several reasons. As some have pointed out, some patients are vulnerable, and may not feel comfortable in asking the person who is giving them care to stop talking about a subject which is obviously deeply important to them. As others have said, refusing a request for prayer risks offending the person doing the asking, and that leads to a lack of trust in the medical care received.

But it's more than that. Even chaplains are trained at length to avoid imposing our religion on patients - it is the job of a professional chaplain to meet the patient where they are and journey with them, even if their faith is very different from our own. (In my old hospital, chaplains did not wear religious symbols at work - again, our job was to be open to whatever patients might choose to project on us.) If asked about our own religion, we of course respond - but to initiate such conversations would be to meet our needs and not those of the patients.

True, chaplains may offer prayer, and our very presence initiates a conversation about religion. But a patient can always tell a chaplain to go away. The chaplains, in fact, are the ONLY hospital staff a patient can tell to go away. A patient has no such privileges over the nurses, doctors and other staff who come to see them.

Oddly enough, in hospitals it is often the office of spiritual care that will educate the other staff to be very cautious in bringing up their own religious beliefs. Chaplains receive years of training to be sensitive to the issues surrounding religion in clinical settings, and to practice our profession responsibly. A well-meaning staff person has not received that training, and may inadvertently cross any number of boundaries. (This happens a lot - for example, it is often a problem in neo-natal intensive care units that nurses will baptize the babies without the parents' knowledge or consent. One of our jobs used to be to remove the stray pieces of tracts and religious propaganda that people would leave around the hospital. My favorite was a pamphlet on the urinals in the mens' room that said in bold letters "DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING?" But I digress.)

Christianity is not being singled out here - as someone pointed out, a Wiccan offering to do a ritual would probably have been disciplined sooner and more harshly. Someone offering to heal with crystals would not be tolerated. But the fact is that very few Wiccans (or Muslims, or Jews, or New-Agers, or Hindus) would make such an offer, because they make no assumption that others are likely to practice religion in the way they do. Christians, used to being in the majority, often assume that either (a) others are at least nominally Christian or (b) even non-Christians appreciate petitionary prayer.

The latter is an especially important part of this. The ritual of petitionary prayer, while not exclusive to Christianity, is much more central to it than in many other religions. The very act of offering a prayer may be seen as imposing a certain set of religious values on a patient.

Spoken prayers are often given in the language of "We," and tends to assume aggreement with its statements. (One example would be Rev. Rick Warren's prayer at the Obama inauguration, which was more sermon than prayer, and ended up with the Lord's Prayer, a specifically Christian formulation.) It takes a good deal of self-awareness and introspection to offer a spoken prayer that does not have some element of "preaching," rather than simply "praying."

The best bedside prayers come out of the context of a visit, and largely reflect the patient's own words and needs. For example, a prayer requesting that God heal a patient may be innapprioate for a patient on hospice, who is coming to terms with not being healed, and whose need is to be at peace with dying. Likewise, such a prayer would be inappropriate for a patient who has a life-changing injury, such as a spinal cord injury. In the Christian tradition, it is often normal to pray for forgiveness from sin - is that appropriate when it's coming from a doctor or nurse - or for that matter, from your chaplain? (The answer is, only if the patient has talked about their need for forgiveness and in no other circumstance.)

A well-meaning person, praying as they would for themselves, might easily stray into any of these difficult areas - areas that might be emotionally and spiritually painful for a patient.

I absolutely agree with those who say that spiritual care is part of healing, and medical care in general. A patient's spiritual frame of mind has a huge impact not only on their direct physical condition, but also on how they will approach self-care. Precisely because it is so important, it needs to be handled sensitively. Again, the question is, "Whose need am I meeting, here?" If the patient has not been talking about religion, then the answer is probably, "My own."

If a medical professional believes that a patient has a real need for spiritual care, but the patient has not expressed such a need, there is an easy way out. The medical professional could politely suggest - and ONLY suggest, not insist - that the patient might want to talk with a chaplain, or a member of the clergy in their own tradition. The staff member could even offer to make a referral - with the patient's permission. But unless the patient has broached the subject, it is potentially harmful to the patient's well-being to have medical staff coming in and offering prayers or other rituals in their own tradition.

I respect that the nurse in this case apparently asked first and accepted "no" for an answer. It would have been better to speak with a chaplain, or simply to keep religion out of it entirely. Without more sides to the story, there simply isn't a way to know if the provider acted correctly in dismissing her or not.

As I said at the outset, this is long and rambling. But I hope it helps provide some perspective.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

goatfell wrote: "and non of this and goatfell wrote...I just hate it. find someone else to bully"

I'd hardly call formatting a response so it was more apparent/immediate which post/poster is being replied to 'bullying'.

The quotes I'm making are your words. I'm not editing them or taking them out of context - they are exactly how you've written them. I've done to this to all my responses on this thread (and on the board too), so it's not as if you're being singled out for my 'bullying' either.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM

Thank yo, Dan, always good to hear your voice in such matters. You have my respect and gratitude.

One note, people, the nurse was NOT fired. She was suspended pending investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM

Well put Dan. What Kat said.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

Dan ~ excellent and interesting post

Kat ~ "suspended pending investigation," in my view, is tantamount to bieng fired if the suspension is without pay. If they're paying her during the investigation, that's good for her but kind of a bad deal for the taxpayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

Hmm...

A Moslim has an religious obligation to pray 5 times a day, and there are supposed to be accomadations to working conditions to allow that. Businsses are fined for not allowing that.

A Christian ( of certain sects ) has an religious obligation to tell others about Christ, and can be fired for doing so. Businesses are fined for NOT firing them.


Now I understand.


I have always been asked if I wanted others to pray for me, and I usually said "sure!". I do not care who they are praying to: the idea that that person wanted to spend energy and good-will to the universe to benefit me seemed a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM

Whoops - suspended, not fired.

Bruce, I think there's a false dichotomy in that last post. Even in those Christian religions that require proselytizing, it's generally handled in a specific way at a specific time. All Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are required to go door to door at some point. (The pop-star Prince, for example, met his obligation by driving to one random house in his limousine and knocking on the door.) I don't know of any denomination that requires its members to spread the faith AT WORK.

True, Moslems are required to pray five times a day, and accommodations should be made. That does not mean that a Moslem nurse or doctor has the right to pray in a patient's room when the patient is there, whether the patient wants it or not. Such prayer is generally done privately or with other Moslems. This is not equivalent to praying with (or at) patients.

I think many or most people, when asked if others might pray for them, would likely say yes. But not all. Fewer would say yes when asked if others could pray WITH them, and some may feel very uncomfortable about that.

OK, now I've really said my piece.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

No, no, no, no, no.......

We *CANNOT* live in a society where we all have to analyse what comes out of our mouths before we say things, just to meet the bizarre 'rules' of the over pedantic PK brigade!

olafr....If someone needed help, I'd give it. I'm well aware of those who would be highly incensed if I offered to help them when they didn't want it. Good heavens above!! I nursed my father, a gentle, but proud man. I had a terrible stutter as a child, so knew the anger when people finished my sentences for me. That has now gone, but hell, I'll stand there for 30 minutes whilst someone gets out what they want to say, rather than say it for them, unless they want me to.

But this is being totally over the top. ALL she said was something very mild...and WHOOOOOOOOOSH! people have fallen over sideways in absolute horror, accusing her of this and that and everything else!

I get real miffed at being made to appear a right dingbat, purely because I don't do this 'over-analysing' and 'ah, yes but what did she *really* mean?' part.

Megan....

Gawd, is NOT God.

Daft ol' biddies are just that, Daft ol' biddies. It does not mean that ALL older people are classed that way by me. Good Gawd, I'm often a Daft Ol' Biddy meself these days!

I was blessed, yes....****BLESSED**** to have a father who taught me to laugh at myself and at many situations. It has got me through the most extraordinary things in life, some terrible situations. Political Correctness though, has removed humour. It's removed joy. It's removed the naturalness of life.

We can no longer speak freely, unless we stick to the script.
We can no longer do our jobs, unless we sign up to all the rules...

olafr, if I'd fallen off the ladder whilst decorating, I'd have sat in hospital thinking to myself, "You daft ol' biddy! Now look what you've gorn and done!" and smiled through the pain. I'd certainly have not once even entertained the idea of suing my bosses, or the people who made the ladders, or the paintbrushes, the paint or the wobbly carpet.

It just HAPPENS!!

When I left work to have my first child, I didn't even put in for that thingummyjig bit where your employers have to keep your job open and pay you for so many months. Why? Because why the hell should they have to pay out because I've been blessed enough, and made the decision, to have children?

Cor, loveaduck!

WHAT has happened to us all????? It's like we've all been crop sprayed with the Silly Gene, where no-one questions, or dares to break the rules, or stand up and say "This is such a load of bullshit!" Noooooo...everyone walks round pedantically analysing every last bit of everything.."She looked at me funny!" "He said something that really meant THIS!" "They called me a name I don't like!" "I won't ever recover from being offered a prayer!"

Oh, purleeeeeeze!

I worked with many, many patients from the Middle East. Always when leaving they'd smile, hold their hands out to me, then touch their hearts and say "Inshallah"....Blimey! They BLESSED me!!! And they kinda blessed me to their God! Corks! What a thing to do, eh! Hell's bells but I should have taken each of them to court, in this New Way of Thinking!   NOT.

I will NEVER live my life on a straight-laned motorway, only ever going in the same direction as everyone else, without deviating from the route in any way!

I will always turn off the Motorway of Political Correctness, into the country lanes, filled with poppies, and stop off in the villages, talk to the post mistress, visit the pub, smile at the children, tell someone how pretty they look or what a lovely smile they have...I may even hug complete strangers, should the need or the situation arise!

I will never take umbridge at elderly gents who have twinkly eyes and who smile a knowing smile, nor report someone who may be so kind as to ask me to share in a prayer, if I'm ever in the position of being housebound.

I look after my ex-mother-in-law (???) who's 94 and I know that if a nurse had said that to her, she'd have just said "Thank you, ducks, how kind" and left it at that....

Gee Whizz! All this namby pamby behaviour that goes on these days makes my blood fair boil!

Here, one of the new breed of NHS Nurses guaranteed NEVER to break The Rules or offer you a cup of tea or a small prayer to go with it!

Guaranteed never to upset!

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

Dan Schatz, I'd like to echo others comments regarding the informed depth, insight and sensitivity of your postings on this thread. Mudcat seems to breed a strange dichotomy of yay sayers or nay sayers regarding spiritual matters. Always good to see a genuine, intelligent and balanced post in response to such matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Jeez, Lizzie, if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing...

The other thing that occurs to me is that this so-called war on people's freedom of speech, expression and action does not appear to have had the slightest effect on you or the countless other forum contributors, bloggers, letter writers to local papers, pub philosophers and so on who fill acres of public space with complaints about being silenced by the censorious ways of the politically correct.

In that way, you are clearly the perfect argument against yourself ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:03 PM

Lizzie
especially true here in the states anymore

so very true

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:24 PM

Dan, not only did your post make sense, I'm copying it (if it's OK) to some of our Episcopal clergy-in-training as a discussion piece. What you wrote is a good illustration of why some of our clergy are welcome and sought in hospital ERS where other denominations' clergy, if they have not done CPE, are not. We require CPE, and a lot of non-seminary-trained "ordained" do not.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Sleepy Rosie, you asked what would happen if a witch wanted to say a prayer for a catholic. I already posted an answer to that but the post was deleted so I must have said something wrong. I'll pare the answer down this time and hopefully you'll see it. This would be my response anyway, others will have to answer for themselves -

In short, I would just tell her politely 'no, but thanks anyway' and leave it at that on the assumption that he / she meant well. I would only get shirty if he / she persisted after I'd made myself clear (not once, but twice or thrice) in that manner. I wouldn't 'report' on him/ her (though if I understood correctly the old lady didn't 'report' on the woman, but mentioned it as a curiosity to whoever else was helping her)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Thanks Kat, I think I get what you mean and I'm inclined to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

Interesting that I keep seeing such a large proliferation of Red Herrings here -- mostly from the same side. I see the connection. I went to Sunday school. I know about fish and Christianity. We're being shown the miracle of the loaves and red fishes. Such an interesting world.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM

"if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing..."

Hell yes! I could find nothing bad to say about the Nurses I've known. They are the best party animals the good Christian God ever made. The best bunch of real people you'd ever want to meet.

Not a nu-age crystal to be found amongst them as a rule, but some very sick jokes to be sure. And of course an abundance of pragmatic life-saving, earthy human healing love, of the kind that includes cleaning festering sores, washing shitty arses, and pumping stomachs etc.

Most the Nurses I know are earthy, utterly irreligious, materialists. And a few illegal or perhaps 'anarchic' things to boot. Doesn't mean that they are therefore inhumane robots. In fact quite the opposite. At least they don't attribute your sickness to some karmic evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

Interesting how google selects appropriaste ads to display while we browse threads. On offer at the moment are a Muslim singles dating agency, or an over 50's holiday to see the Oberammergau Passion Play. Good choice!

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM

Aw shucks, folks. Sure you can pass it on - it's sort of off the top of my head, but if it's helpful, I'm glad.

The CPE that WYSIWYG refers to is Clinical Pastoral Education. Many denominations in various countries require one unit - a full-time summer or a part-time year - as a prerequisite to ordination. About half the time is spent on patient care in a hospital, prison or nursing home, and the other half on group and individual personal and professional development. It's VERY intense. In the US, accredited professional chaplains are generally required to have at least four units of CPE - an internship plus a year long full-time residency. All that is in addition to a Masters in Divinity and ordination by a denomination.

These issues tend to come up a lot.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

Sleepy Rosie. Awww. That's so good. Thank you from a 64 year-old nurse.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM

Dan, I esp. want to thank you for the following:

But the fact is that very few Wiccans (or Muslims, or Jews, or New-Agers, or Hindus) would make such an offer, because they make no assumption that others are likely to practice religion in the way they do. Christians, used to being in the majority, often assume that either (a) others are at least nominally Christian or (b) even non-Christians appreciate petitionary prayer.

Spot on!

I might add, I was very pleased when I told the heart surgeon I wanted to be listening to my visualisation tape as they put me under for the surgery AND wanted it back on for me to wake up to in Recovery. They were very respectful and did just as I'd asked. There was no mention of any kind of religion...just recognition of MY spiritual requests.

But for one nurse, everyone who took care of me was wonderful, too. Dan, there can be exceptions to the rule. I told the "evil" nurse to get out and stay out. I told the rest of them she was not to return to my room and she did not!:->

Nickhere, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM

Having very recently been through a pretty tough health scare which included some potentially distressing surgery, I just wanted to add my voice to those who are incredibly humbled by and grateful for the standard of care and level of professionalism and emotional support offered by doctors and nurses in the UK.

My local hospital is only small, but they have a first class fast-track breast clinic. From the moment you walk through the door you are treated with dignity and respect, and fully informed about what is going to happen. Over several weeks I had nurses who held my hand, who let me cry on their shoulders, and who gave me the space I needed to deal with what I was going through as I needed to, not as they thought I should. This, I think, is the responsibility of the healthcare professional - the experience should be led by the patient and their emotional needs, not by misguided proselytising. If anyone had offered to pray for me, I would have responded politely I guess, though I would have found it somewhat inappropriate. If anyone had offered to pray WITH me, I would have probably been quite cross, to be honest, because I think it crosses a certain line of professionalism, is intrusive, and potentially exploits one's very real sense of vulnerability in a particularly distressing situation. As Dan very cogently pointed out, 'Again, the question is, "Whose need am I meeting, here?" If the patient has not been talking about religion, then the answer is probably, "My own." '

As someone with no spirituality to speak of, I believe there is a big difference between the pastoral, emotional care and sensitivity required in these circumstances and some notion of looking after a patient's "spiritual" well-being. It is perfectly possible to give the former without over-stepping into the latter. One of the questions on the hospital admission form is what religion you are. I can't help wondering whether nurses on various wards have access to this information, and whether the nurse in question took the answer into account before handing out prayer cards and offering to pray with people.

I should add that several friends and family who are Christian told me throughout me recent experience, "you're in my prayers". Even though they know I'm not a Christian, this was their way of letting me know they were thinking of me - my friend who is a Wiccan also told me she had her altar at the ready! I found this very sweet and kind. Somehow it is quite different (IMHO) from a stranger, a healthcare professional, in a hospital setting, offering to pray for/with you. Okay, I'm not really sure why. But it is. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:54 AM

Jeez, Lizzie, if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing...

SC, I know all about the naughty, outrageous, irrervent and very funny humour of Doctors and Nurses. I worked with them for years, and my best friend was a Nurse too, and no-one has a better sense of humour than she has, she's great!

The other thing that occurs to me is that this so-called war on people's freedom of speech, expression and action does not appear to have had the slightest effect on you or the countless other forum contributors, bloggers, letter writers to local papers, pub philosophers and so on who fill acres of public space with complaints about being silenced by the censorious ways of the politically correct.

In that way, you are clearly the perfect argument against yourself ;-)

Good try, SC...but..er..I've had my freedom of speech removed for infinity and beyond on two messageboards because of those who seek to control what I say, so I disagree wholeheartedly with you there. Sorry. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:59 AM

There was an experiment done on the effects of prayer on hospital patients, and it was not positive.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:29 AM

If I leave my car with a mechanic, I expect it to be serviced or repaired to the specification I asked. I trust him to do his job.

If I get back and my car has been tuned up for more power, had a bigger exhaust fitted or go fast stripes down the side, steering wheel changed for a different one the mechanic thought suited me better...

I would have the option of shouting a lot, demanding my car be put to the specification I trusted him to bring it to, and then I would find a different mechanic.

Old ladies with leg ulcers needing dressing do not have the option of shouting and finding a different nurse. That is why vulnerable people need protecting. We have professionals who are entrusted to protect vulnerable people, we call them nurses.

That is why she cannot be trusted to carry on working whilst her employer sorts this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:43 AM

Sorry - having read through the thread again, I had forgotten that the nurse in question was handing out prayer cards/offering to pray in people's homes, not in hospital. In my opinion, this is equally, if not even more, inappropriate. I also agree that this is an employment issue, rather than one about religion: she was told not to do it on a previous occasion, and has carried on regardless. That is why the case is being taken to the lengths it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:23 AM

Oh come on!!! This nurse offered to do something for someone... even if it is handing a card out the receiver can say no for no further action! (unlike the incessant spam mail that comes into our homes through the letterbox). She was being altruistic which I guess some people won't want to recognise or will find an alternative explanation for. She did it with goodwill in her heart and not for her own purposes. Nowadays, generosity is regarded with suspicion as we are brainwashed into believing 'There has to be a catch' in everything (and everyone) and no-one is to be trusted.
What law has she broken? is the first question and the second is how would you react if someone you know who is Christian didn't offer to pray for your dying relative?.
I can't even conceive of a rule in any profession which says you cannot hand out offers of prayer either verbally or by card.... what was the rule she broke????
Can I also ask you another question...... which one of you, any one.... didn't pray to God when you were in a tight or rock bottom situation??? Many if not all of you know that you did...... Why did you do it??? Because you needed help and we have an inbuilt instinct to pray to our maker in times of dire need... no-one has to tell us to we just do it!......... Alright so that's my opinion!!!!!!
I will offer to pray for anyone... and I mean anyone who is ill or needs help in any way.. I don't hand cards out but I do it verbally and always will.... I have never yet had someone say no in a nasty or offended way.......

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:30 AM

Just on a point of fact, Georgiansilver, I can put my hand on my heart and say I have never prayed to a "maker" in times of severe stress - and, like many another, I've had such times. I've never prayed because, even as a small child, I've never believed in anything religious. No big deal, just plain fact. Just got through those times.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Rapunzel
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM

Georgiansilver, this is the code she is said to have broken

NMC Code of Conduct

In particular You must deliver care based on the best available evidence or best practice.

You must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity

and

You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM

Oh, for heaven's sake!

I'm with Mike on this, totally.

Throw these stupid rules away, and give this kind and caring nurse her job back.

By the way, I heard today that teachers and policemen are suspended on full pay, pending investigations.

People have gone nuts. Totally nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

I'm with Ms Archer on this one.
A bit of solace is a good thing. (From nurses, Family, Friends etc)
Offer of a prayer? Well, not for me, but it might be nice if I felt so inclined.
Handing out prayer cards??? (Whatever religion) Huge No-No.
I'm with Darwin on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:49 AM

GUEST Rapunzel. re my post you have stated.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Georgiansilver, this is the code she is said to have broken

NMC Code of Conduct

In particular You must deliver care based on the best available evidence or best practice.

You must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity

and

You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends<<<<<<<<<<

Question 1) Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not delivered care based on the best available evidence or best practice..... My answer to that is No!! That she did her job at the ladys house is not in question.

Question 2)Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not demonstrated a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity... My answer to that is No!!! I am sure she would offer the same to disabled/ethnic minorities/ anyone at all as well as carrying out her work effectively.

Question 3) Is there any evidence to suggest that the nurse has abused her privileged position for her own ends... My answer to that is a categorical NO!!!!!! (Please read the bit about 'altruism' in my previous post.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

Georgian Silver: no, I did not pray. I do not believe in god.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM

"Question 2)Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not demonstrated a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity... My answer to that is No!!! I am sure she would offer the same to disabled/ethnic minorities/ anyone at all as well as carrying out her work effectively."

My understanding of the commitment to equality and diversity in this instance is to respect the right of others to have a different faith than you, or indeed to have no faith at all. And to respect their right not to have your faith imposed upon them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

Forgive me pointing this out again but no faith was 'imposed' on anyone.. an offer was made. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM

I believe that I would rather have prayer cards left - without comment- after a nurse's visit than a verbal offer to pray with/for me.

That would allow me to tell her gently on her next visit that I'd rather that she did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

Forgive me pointing this out again but no faith was 'imposed' on anyone.. an offer was made.

The very offer of a prayer is an imposition of faith, based on the presupposition that the faith of the believer is somehow relevant to others, which, of course, it isn't. Offering to pray for someone is not delivering care based on best available evidence, nor is it demonstrating a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity. It is, in fact, an abuse of a privileged position for personal ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

It's crystal-clear to anyone who hasn't got their head stuck up their own arse that some people spend their lives actively seeking to find offence in anything and everything they see or hear.

These dopes need to grow up, get real and get their panties bunched over REAL issues, not this sort of stupid crap. It's playground stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM

Once I woke up in a South German hospital having driven back from a festival in the North feeling more and more ill by the mile. Surrounding my bed were half a dozen nuns who chorused Gott sei Dank as I opened my eyes. I couldn't get out of that fucking hospital quickly enough. I put my total and immediate recovery down to excellent German medical care. Not "prayers".

It irritates me beyond measure that whenever I have to attend hospital (for a hurt finger or something), they want to know what religion I subscribe to. None. None of their business anyway. Just do your jobs and fix the sodding finger. And keep your "prayers" well away from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

"get real and get their panties bunched over REAL issues, not this sort of stupid crap. It's playground stuff."

But it IS nice to know that if this is the worst thing that people have to complain about then their life is pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

I rembmer Scotland as known as God's country but then megan L who knows or thinks they do has called me racist so I find that bullying of the worst kind

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Pseudolus at Work
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM

It's baffling to me that this was even an issue. The reactions in this thread were to the story as it was told so for the moment, let's assume that the description of events happened exactly as described. A Prayer was offered, it was declined, end of story. Nothing was forced. If she had offered a sandwich and the person was a vegetarian and declined, would she be accused of forcing her carnivorous views on the patient? Most likely not. If she were offered a glass of milk and was told no because the patient was lactose intolerant, would she have been fired for forcing her dairy position on the patient? Not so much… But as soon as religion enters into the fray, the same offer, without any pressure, just a simple question brings out anger and accusations of forced prayer as if she had held a gun to her head. I understand that on many levels this type of thing makes people feel like their space is being intruded upon but let's not forget that she did not force the issue and the patient herself said in the complaint that it didn't bother her but it might bother other people which is why she complained. If offers like this are vilified to the point of losing one's job then where does it stop? If people have to fear loss of employment then it could diminish offers of help of any kind to the point where we will all be on our own. I heard it said that what if the person doesn't feel like they have the right to say no for fear that they wouldn't get the appropriate care. Has there been any evidence that her care level dropped for those who refused the offer of a prayer?

I am a Christian. If someone is in need, I will pray for them, it is what I do and yes I will offer to pray with someone…it is who I am. But I am constantly told that I need to stop being who I am to appease those that disagree. If someone forced the issue I would agree that they have gone too far but if I make an offer to pray and it is refused, then both the person who I made the offer to and I would have been true to themselves…what is wrong with that?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

Lets get real on this.

A lot of the hospitals in the UK are in disgusting condition and I would be more worried about what I might pick up whilst being in hospital, than somebody offering a prayer.
Who knows she might have wanted to offer a prayer hoping that the patient wouldn't get MRSA or a mistake occurring etc.

I would be more worried if she was offering somebody a drink or food when they were NIL BY MOUTH

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM

The "what religion" question at hospital is just to help hospital chaplains know which rooms to stop by (or which church to call if things go badly).

In the US a credentialed visiting clergyperson used to be able to look at the daily census to see if any of his/her folks were in. Now HIPA precludes that courtesy; hooking them up with patients who want a visit falls to floor nurses who MIGHT look at that question on the chart and who might, or might not, make the time to ask social services to make a phone call to the clergy.

Parish members don't always know that this used to work that way, and that it has changed. In an accusatory tone: "I was having an OPERATION!!! Why didn't you come to SEE me!?!?!?"

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM

Just to keep the facts as we know them straight: she has not lost her job and it was in the elderly woman's home, not in hospital.

As for the food analogies: religion/spirituality issues are more amorphous/intangible and usually much deeper than not liking a certain type of food or unable to tolerate a certain type of food. Granted those allergies are important to know about, but they also are part of the realm of care which a nurse should know about and render. Apples and oranges, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Local news watcher
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:46 PM

This story was reported on West Country TV news a couple of days ago.
I missed the first half of the report, which I guess was about 5 mins long.
My impression was that this 'news report' was less than objective,
being subtley biased in favour of the christian viewpoint.
All christian interviewees and local church representatives
were presented in a flattering and uncritical manner
and given full oportunity to present their case
as if it was completly without reproach.
The nurse in question was framed positively as an 'attractive' caring woman
who has been wronged by an overofficious inhumane 'big brother' beaurocracy.
However she somewhat undermined her sypathetic TV showcasing
by appearing to be smug, and unsuccesessfully stifling
a constant smirking expression of superiority.

There, thats my 'objective' report on how this industrial relations dispute
has been reported by 'conservative' local West Country TV news.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM

Seems to me that the Christians on this board have got their underpants in a twist over the simple request that nurses stick to what they are employed to do - nursing. It's not rocket science, you know.

If I found out that any of the nurses or social workers on my team were using their position of power and authority to feed their religious or political views to any of the vulnerable and severely mentally ill individuals we are employed to care for, they would be in trouble, make no mistake. Their professional codes of conduct are sacrosanct and not open to random negotiation. You take on the job, you get paid for it, you can't then pick and choose which bits of the value base you think should apply to you.

This isn't because I'm some kind of politically correct spoilsport. It's because its the thin end of a very dodgy wedge. If I let Nurse A offer prayers to service users do I then let nurse B sell Socialist Worker? Or canvas votes for the National Front? Or offer an exorcism?

You may say haven't we got something better to deal with, but I would counter that the ethical issues around health and social care provision are pretty damned important to most of us working in the field. If we took the "common sense" approach and ditched them you really wouldn't like the results. Trust me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: open mike
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM

i recentlyu went in for a medical procedure and the Dr. asked if he could pray before it. I said o.k. if it made him feel better or if
he thought it would improve the outcome. It took me off guard when
he asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:58 PM

A reminder to some of my Christian friends. When we accepted Jesus as Lord, we gave up our "rights" in favor of something higher. Our "right" to free speech has been bought, and paid for. Our new "rights" are in the Kingdom, not in the secular world.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

I'm not laughing, SP is absolutely right. Just one thing: how to ensure those nuns don't get in my room if I'm unfortunate enough to end up in hospital again.

Actually, I think it's considerably worse that this nurse was peddling her prayers in the woman's home into which she was admitted for some legitimate medical purpose, but which she subsequently abused. It's bad enough when these cranks come ringing the doorbell on a Sunday morning but as long as you are not in this woman's presumably vulnerable state, you can tell them to . . . close the gate after themselves. And in a hospital ward you can at least yell for security (just like on Holby City).

If anyone actuallywants this sort of intervention, it can be arranged - as previously mentioned - through the chaplain, just as the local SWP branch can also be summoned quite easily on request.