Why is this board so unpleasant?

Subject: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: glueman
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:16 PM

I came across Mudcat while looking for information and was bounced at the first post with an ad hominem attack from someone I'd never met who accused me of being someone else. Since then I've seen people insulted, bullying and victimisation by different groups and every kind of unpleasant sniping.

I don't find the folk scene unusually aggressive, so what is it about folkies that makes them so unpleasant on the internet? Or do the hard cases just happen to congregate here and rule the roost?

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:20 PM

Yes

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:26 PM

They enjoy driving people away; especially when they succeed.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:27 PM

Nope. I for one would like you to cite the thread and the posts to which you refer so I can see who was on your case and why. Believe you me, there are some hard cases like me who would jump on the ass of the peep(s) what done laid that on ya.

So... what thread? Who? When?

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:28 PM

I can understand how you might see things that way, but I think the pros far outweigh the cons by a massive proportion.

There are a lot of opinions and everyone wants to be heard, but its just words and I don't let them bother me for more than a few minutes at the most.

Sorry to hear you were attacked on your first visit, I hope you stick around and enjoy the good bits.

I suspect that you wouldn't have posted if you intended to quit, but thats no reason to deny you some reassurance.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:32 PM

I was disrespected on one of the first posts I made about 8 years ago but I didn't let it run me off.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: GUEST,old hippy git
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:39 PM

Average age of hardcore mudcat members ???

Some people just get bitter, resentful, and nastier as they get older.

There are scientific explanations regarding physical changes in certain areas of the brain,
which can account for why so many older people become increasingly short tempered and agressive.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: GUEST,a former poster
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:42 PM

Glueman, I totally agree. There are some good folks on board, no doubt, but the creeps rule the roost here. I was insulted and bullied with every post when I started on this website. I would say I liked a song, and five people would jump on my neck to tell me how jejune my tastes are. Just a rude bunch of bullies.

It actually started me reevaluating what kind of people are attracted to folk music. Of course I've met many fine friends through my own personal involvement with this music, and people who are inspired by the likes of Pete Seeger tend to be magnanimous souls. But when I thought of it, there also seems to be many more malcontents in the folk crowd than with fans of classical or rock. The folk people can be insular, meanspirited and insulting, and many don't even seem to understand what good manners are. I'd love to know if there's another forum for folk fans who are decent and respectful of each other; because I really don't come here anymore.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:45 PM

First of all, not everyone here is a folk musican and some come here just to be spitefull... Hey, it's a free world (the internet) and there ain't no butt-head filters here in Mudville...

Secondly, if you got jumped on then either you posted something that was jumpable or you just happened to get one of the butt-heads...

I wouldn't judge this joint from one experience... Nor would I expect that if you continue to post here that the chances of runnin' into another butt-head are any less...

It's purdy much a crap shoot here... Kinda like real life, come to think of it...

B~

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:47 PM

I think the scientific explanation is that the young pups have few manners, little respect and less compassion.

If those pups had any of these, they might understand "older people", even the ones with "brain changes".

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:51 PM

If you give specifics, glueman, someone might be able to answer. In general, I avoid the threads and/or unpleasant posts and go about my business. Piss me off and I can get very nasty.

You, I understand, play the banjo, which earns you at least ten Get Out Of Jail Free cards. Banjo players are sexier...look it up in the threads.

To give you a serious answer, there are some who thrive on drama and arguments. After a while you will find yourself glossing over their posts because you will know it is unlikely that there is anything there you want to read. They are in the minority but as in life, the squeaky wheel gets the oil and often it is very difficult to allow their attacks to go unanswered. Choose your battles and your threads carefully.

The majority here are decent people who know how to discuss a subject and disagree with your ideas without bringing your mother and assorted ancestors and body parts into it.

Hope that helps.
SINS

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Slag
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:53 PM

I've found that there is a continuing improvement, overall, of the tenor and demeanor of most posters here, including myself! I agree though that when logic and fact run short the as hominem attacks sometimes increase, which is unfortunate. There is a lot of good natured pot shotting that goes on but that is just inside stuff and you soon learn that it is a mostly friendly give and take going on. This is a GREAT site and if you can over look the occasional nastiness I'm sure you will enjoy it. And you can believe me. I often hold an opposition view to the political bent of most posters here but I give as well as I take. Politics and religion aside, were all just folks.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:07 PM

You too need to point to some specific threads, former poster, before anyone can really know what you are talking about.Often, what is said is misinterpreted simply because you can't see the body language behind it.

But if it really is not worth your time to stay here, why are you still posting? "I'd love to know if there's another forum for folk fans who are decent and respectful of each other; because I really don't come here anymore." Really? Yet here you are.

"Creeps rule the roost here" I don't see it. If someone is truly offensive, contact Joe Offer and he deals with it quickly and effectively. If someone's opinion hurts your feelings - well, that's life.

I am in here every day. I often disagree with what is said or how it is presented.I can name four people who are consistently unpleasant. Others find these same four people brilliant. Go figure.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:09 PM

If you get on a bus and someone steps on your toe and doesn't say sorry does that mean the transport system is a waste of time?   

Anywhere you go, on the net or in the big world, some people are liable to be pains in the neck. But most aren't. On the whole the Mudcxat is a pretty friendly and helpful place,

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:13 PM

Well said, SINS... I had composed a post that was along the same thoughtline, but I am sure it may have been misconstrued as being a tad, ah, er... well, I didn't didn't post it. I have this nagging thing about feeding trolls. It's a weakness, I know.

Again... I have to try to follow my resolutions and leave before I DO post sommat I will rue.

Youse all have fun.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:20 PM

Actually I said "If someone's OPINIONS hurt your feelings..."
But I believe we have discovered the source of your problem.

A little while back at work we were discussing rice cookers. I said I thought they were the stupidest invention of the 21st century. A fellow worker later sent me an outraged message that he used a rice cooker and did not appreciate my calling him stupid. That is the short version; he actually went on for about 30 paragraphs and brought in every chef since Julia Child.

I still think rice cookers are stupid. I never said or implied that he was stupid.

Now I will join gnu and cease feeding the trolls.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:26 PM

This is one of the easy lobs to bat down in one swipe of the racquet: because here we are free to be human beanm, in all our glory and all our unglory. Stick around an hour and you'll see plenty of both. Up to you which side to indulge.

~S~

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:46 PM

From what I can see this was glueman's first ever post, in this thread:

The opinions of the sensitive few on here insist we still live an agrarian or early industrial society that has never heard a radio playing swing, a television showing Mr Presley or an iPod loaded with pomp rock. The Eden of pure folk is comical, academically suspect, clubbishly thin skinned, impossibly rarified, outrageously snobbish. The beauty of the instrumentation and subject matter appeal to some of us, not some middle class historian dribbling into his Bladder's Old Twaddle and getting teary eyed at his own perfection.

And he comes over all hurt and innocent about getting a negative reception?

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Janie
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:52 PM

Interesting title, glueman. Are you aware that you have posed it in a way that is nearly guaranteed to confirm your perception and experience? I don't think calling this board unpleasant is a very accurate global assessment. So right away, I have no choice but to disagree with you. Then you can say, "See? I told you so. I'm out of here."

It may well be that was unintentional, but you might want to think about. It could be one reason why you experience Mudcat as so globally unpleasant and distasteful.

Or maybe you don't consider it globally unpleasant and distasteful. However, that is what you are communicating in your thread title. I'm not at all familiar with your posts and posting style, so am not suggesting that is the case. Just saying you might want to look at your own communication style and see if that is a contributing factor.

i'm sorry you do not find Mudcat a place of value, and wish you well.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:08 PM

The pot calling the kettle black?

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:12 PM

Jack, just looking at that thread, it's one of those notorious ones in which you can probably find a similar posting by just about anyone in there. IF you click on glueman's name in his posting to this thread, his very first posting ever on Mudcat doesn't match up with what you linked.

glueman, please PM specifics to Joe Offer or myself or one of the other mods. I just looked at your first ten or so postings and didn't see anything untoward and really enjoyed reading the song of your mom's.

former poster, I'd say the same to you. Please let us know what attacks you may have suffered and we'll go from there, IF you are interested.

kat, mod

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:16 PM

The very first post I made here led to my being shot down in flames for confusing the meanings of 'whence' and 'whither'.
I was, at first, rather shocked at the vehemence of the criticism incurred by what was an honest mistake on my part.
But the initial shock led to curiosity. I had never come across   anyone who, seemingly, cared so much about the English language that he or she considered it necessary to pillory an innocent like me so mercilessly.
It was, to coin a phrase, a baptism of fire.
Examination of other Mudcat threads showed that this passion was by no means unique and I have been hooked ever since.
Mudcat posters love to argue. Argue, that is, in the true sense of the word.
Sometimes things go way over the top, and a certain nastiness can creep in, but mostly it's just good old-fashioned debate.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:18 PM

Curmudgeon, I concur.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:22 PM

In fact, by and large, this community is singularly helpful, knowledgeable, and considerate.

Try posting something stupid on the turbobricks board and see how hard you get jumped on!

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:26 PM

Looking at your posting history, glueman, you seem to post to a lot of "What is Folk Music?" type threads. Those threads are ALWAYS contentious pits of bile populated by people with extremely high regard for their own opinions.

My advice is to ignore such threads and stick to ones having to do with things like toilet paper, kitchen utensils, or large invertebrates. They have at least as much relevance to folk music as yet another "What is Folk?" discussion.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:11 PM

A man was walking down the road and he saw a sign ahead, indicating the name of the town was Centerberg. By the sign an old man sat, resting in the shade.
"Hello, Stranger," said the Old Man.
"Hello" said the stranger, "I'm in search of a new home. Do you live in Centerberg?"
"Sure do," replied the Old Man.
"May I ask," said the stranger, "what sort of folks live there?"
The Old Man smiled and said "what sort of folks live in the town you come from?"
"Mean, spiteful people who are ignorant and stubborn, and never give a man a chance."
"Well," said the Old Man, "I think you'll find the same sort of people live here."
The man continued walking down the road.

So, Glueman, as a resident of this place for ten years, I find the people here entirely different from your description. But you are certainly free to continue down the road.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: open mike
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:51 PM

i have met many people here who i treasure
i am sorry you find it unpleasent here..

if you want to avoid opinions, i suggest
keeping to the threads above the line,

the ones in the B.S. section often
contain personal points of view...

i recall when training to become a
hospital volunteer we were cautioned
to steer clear of religion and politics

and other topics that might spark debate.

if what you said was this:
"The Eden of pure folk is comical, academically suspect, clubbishly thin skinned, impossibly rarified, outrageously snobbish."

you should have expected some folkies to be on the defensive.

if you put out sugar, the humming birds come...
shit, on the other hand, draws other flying creatures...

and, as to the rice cooker debate, perhaps that person,
a cooker of rice, considered the comments pointed at him (her?)

i find that any good pan with a lid serves as a rice cooker.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:57 PM

Classic LeeJ! Bravo! Now to the story thread!

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Janie
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:01 AM

Glueman. What BWL said.

Shop around the threads, both above and below the line. The threads you have mostly been on are not very representative, and also do not express the richness and the knowledge available on this site.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: open mike
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:07 AM

if you had experienced the baring of souls in crisis situations..
and the out pouring of love and support offered here for our fellow folkies, you would find this a different (kinder, gentler) place.

many come here to seek support, and come to find refuge from
the woes of the world...many here light candles for others
and send virtual hugs of caring and concern...i have never
found a place like it for the exchange of real, empathetic
sharing.

all this is worth putting up with the occasional negative exchange.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: open mike
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:09 AM

yes, stick to spatulas..esp. the non-stick variety.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:12 AM

That is beautiful writing, open mike...thanks for summing it up so well.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 09 - 12:56 AM

Beautifully done Leej!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: open mike
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:06 AM

i should think a more appropriate question would be
"why is this board so unique?"

here is where you can find our deepest thoughts on kitchen utensils

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:39 AM

I was just listening to some Tish Hinojosa. Marvelous stuff. It puts me in a great mood. Why not give that a try?

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:07 AM

Love and shiny things to you 'know friend of mine'... :D

LTS

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:14 AM

Hey Glueman: before I tell you to get stuffed (just kidding), what's the fuckin' problem?

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:49 AM

I think it's brilliant, watching middle aged lawyers and lecturers and you know 'respectable upstanding' older gents, squabbling like schoolboys over someones' misplaced apostrophe. Mudcat is so like a scene out of Skinner and Baddeil sometimes: History Today

And there are some lovely people amongst those miserable old bastards too. In fact they're actually rather cute and fuzzy really, with their beards and woolly jumpers... Aww.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Gurney
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:49 AM

'The most important opinion likely to be offered on this forum is mine, and anyone who doesn't agree with that, is wrong!'

The above statement is in quotation marks because almost everyone on-site will agree with it, to a certain value of 'mine.' The only exception is the opinion the moderator when acting as a moderator. When Joe Offer posts as a member, it is likely that even his opinion may be argued with.

If some of the regular posters are grumpy old gits, well, they are experienced old gits, too. Anyone who doesn't want an opinion argued with, The choices are simple: Do not post it, couch in in careful, uncontroversial language, or grow a thicker skin and accept that opinions are personal, not universal.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: GUEST,Daily Mail
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:57 AM

You are 100% right glueman. There is a little group of terminal bores that have locked into the site and no one but them is allowed a viewpoint.

Ignore them, I do. Poor guys have nothing in their lives.

A fine example of this is seen above.

"If you get on a bus and someone steps on your toe and doesn't say sorry does that mean the transport system is a waste of time?   

Anywhere you go, on the net or in the big world, some people are liable to be pains in the neck. But most aren't. On the whole the Mudcxat is a pretty friendly and helpful place".

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Bert
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:22 AM

Aha, you can tell a troll a mile off, he starts a thread and doesn't come back into the discussion.

He has been invited to name the thread where he was attacked and hasn't done so. Most of us here don't like newcomers being attacked for no reason and will be prepared to defend said newcomer to the hilt. But I suspect that that is not the case here.

I'm guessing that if things quieten down on this thread he'll be back like a shot with his wooden spoon.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:36 AM

"Bongo, bongo, bongo, I don't want to leave the Congo, no, no, no, no, no...."

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Bert
Date: 13 May 09 - 03:54 AM

LH, I thought that was "Bingo, bango bongo".

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:05 AM

Crow Sister, you put that apostrophe there on purpose, didn't you? Admit it!

In Gg's defence he did say elsewhere that he needed to spend time on his writing - a work that had, he said, been promised to his publisher. That may be why he has stirred and vanished.

Not in his defence it seems to me that he has come to a blues and folk music board, and, while I am not sure what he has posted here about the blues, everything of his posting that springs to mind about folk appears intended to deny its existence as a kind of music, to assert that it is no different from any other music, or sometimes that all light and not very amplified music is folk music. I can only speculate on the fact that his initials approximate to a rendering of a childish name for a horse, but if he came here specifically to advance the horse definition that would be a jolly jape, would it not?

He has been somewhat attacked and criticised on many of the recent "what is folk" threads, but, I think, legitimately (and by this I intend to go further than "understandably"), in that his purpose on them seems to be to criticise a particular definition of "folk music" on irrelevant grounds couched in condescending language, yet to propose no improvement nor any alternative workable definition. So far I have detected in him no intent to improve, only to harm.

He is not, however, in the same ball park for nastiness as the original Gargoyle, Martin Gibson, Clinton Hammond, or even (when she is being spiky or worse, rather than informative, which she can be) the Countess, nor as rambling as the Shambles or Mad Lizzie, nor such an offensive racist as Bubblyrat or Riginslinger, nor as difficult to read as Captain Birdseye or sIr jOhN oF hUlL (both of whom I think of as in general positive contributors), nor as threatening as some of the IRA supporters.

Perhaps he will offer us something worthwhile in due course.

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:17 AM

You should never take things personal, and NEVER EVER take things seriously, [ mostly ] it's just in fun.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Why is this board so unpleasant?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 May 09 - 04:18 AM

Usually, I delete threads like this as soon as I see them, because they always smell like trouble. I suppose, though, that it's good to let some go by so people have a chance to vent.

I know it's a mortal sin to blame the victim for the crime, but it's often true on the Internet. The ones most frequently victimized are usually the obnoxious ones. They usually don't realize they're obnoxious and they get all huffy when somebody says something; but I've found that people who know how to get along with people, rarely are targeted by trolls. Those who don't do combat, rarely are victimized by trolls. Those who refuse to bite the bait the trolls set out, rarely get targeted for long. I DO sympathize with people who are targeted, because they usually don't have any idea what they did to make themselves targets. They also can't seem to grasp the concept that the very best tool to use against a tool is absolute silence.

No, trolls shouldn't do what they do. We have rules that prohibit all that stuff, but they do it anyhow - without our permission.

And with that, I'm going to close this thread.

-Joe Offer-