BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:58 PM

Ignoring the intent of the last post- a space having bounds, or one of the pales enclosing a palisade.
The expression is fairly common, meaning out-of-bounds of proper conduct to Americans, but I doubt that many know what a pale is.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:52 PM

Ok, explain what a 'pale' is.... and why one would be 'bloody'.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

This all seems beyond the bloody pale to me.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Some of this reminds me of my childhood home, much different from that of the present time.
The pantry has been replaced by wall-mounted cabinets in newer homes. I still miss the pantry, a room off the kitchen where food supplies were kept. On the floor were bins with flour, sugar, pinto beans (this was in New Mexico) and potatoes. Lard was bought in 25-lb. pails. Shelves were of more interest to me, as fruit (in season) and all sorts of crackers, and cookies (biscuits to the English) were kept, along with the canned goods, and specialty items. I could always find a snack there, and it was a place where I would be out of sight. (A friend or two from more monied families had butler's pantrys.)

Brooms, mops, etc. and old coats and galoshes were kept in a closet near the back door. Milk was delivered in those days, left on the back steps. Ice was also delivered, and put in the ice box- At times I still refer to the fridge as the ice box. Somehow a pair of ice-tongs from those days has stayed with us, and a few years back I found a dairy cart's horse-stop at a house sale; I couldn't resist buying it. It is an object that disappeared from use long ago, along with horse-drawn cartage.
In the dining room, a large cabinet with drawers near the bottom. two doors in the middle section, two upper drawers for the silverware, a flat surface surmounted with mirror, and display shelf was called a sideboard or occasionally a buffet, the terms used interchangably by us.
Table linens and large serving pieces were kept there, much only used at holidays. The surface held cut glass and a silver centerpiece (The day to day stuff was kept in the kitchen, where the family usually ate at the kitchen table).
There also was a china cabinet in the dining room, with 'china' (Limoges, English or German sets), mostly handed down from the previous generation, and a 'tea' trolley used for liquor (but not tea).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: pdq
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

It's safe to say that most Americans know the word "pantry". It refers to a small room, often located next to the kitchen. Dry food and canned goods are stored there, as well as (perhaps) paper towels and paper plates, breakfast cereal, and non-perishable food in bulk.

Post-war homes built from about 1946-1984 were minimalist cheap boxes and the pantry was one of the niceties that usually got skipped. These affordable houses eventually resulted in about 2 out of every 3 people living in family-owned dwellings.

Since the economic boom started around 1985, new homes have become more luxurious with marble countertops, huge master bathrooms, and maybe even a pantry.

Much less likely that we would know the word "larder", which can be a strcture similar to a root cellar or the contents of such a place. Mormans are expected to keep enough non-perishable food on hand to feed their family for a year. That stockpile is a "larder" wherever it is stored.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM

Poem #149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Mrs Cobble
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

When I was young 'forms' had to be filled IN, now they are filled OUT!! Did that come from the USA ?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:44 PM

Pronunciation is often related to context....

If using Department of Defense in a sentence, I would likely say:

"D'partment of DeFENCE", with NO particular first vowel...but if referring to a store, I think I would clearly say 'dePARTment store'.

No particular reason...just habit and ease of speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:42 PM

Maybe because one defence is an adjective and the other is a noun.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:48 AM

"The organization that includes the Army and Navy is the duhFENCE dePARTment, but the two parts of a (American) football team are the OFFence and the DEEfence."

Never thought about that but now you say it I see you're right. Facinating. You learn something new everyday.

Now: why the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:38 AM

I've never heard of anyone thinking "pantry" comes from pots and pans! The root is actually from "bread", the Latin pan, which went to the Old French for bread closet.

Just as in Europe, in the US, pantries are for storing food and other things for the kitchen, a small room or large closet. Expensive big homes like the oversized mansions that were the craze among wealthy during the real estate boom have larger butler's pantries for the housekeeping staff. Our town used to be a ranching and small college town until a ski resort was developed nearby in the 1970's. Now it is considered a resort town, too, and many over-sized mansions (second or third homes) were built around us, most with majestic views of the mountains. I once had a job that took me into these mansions. They were often empty except for the housekeeper, with the out-of-state owners showing up only during trout fishing or ski season.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM

Thank you, Dave. Here, the word 'pantry' tends to be used for a larger, walk-in, larder. Also, for no reason I can make out, for the private room in a big house in which the butler could relax, or carry out his duties such as cleaning the family silver ['butler's pantry'].

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 10:30 AM

MtheGM, at our house (here in Indianapolis) there is a facility, near the back door next to the kitchen, which was, I think, designed as a coat closet. It's about two feet deep, just wider than the door. At some point it lost that mission, and several shelves were installed.

This is where we store such things as canned goods and mixes, bottles of various condiments, flour, oil, on the three large shelves in the middle. A narrower shelf, way up, holds miscellaneous household stuff, and there's more of that on the floor, below the deep shelves.

We have never used the term "larder" for this. Instead it's "the pantry", or maybe "the pantry closet".

Incidentally, most folks tend to think that "pantry" has something to do with the storage of pots and pans. Logical, no?   Wrong. The name goes way back, to a point when the pantry was where bread was kept. "Pan" = "bread".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM

In the Old Mother Hubbard nursery rhyme, however, the cupboard in question, as it was supposed to contained a bone for the dog, would have been the specialist form of food-cupboard called a 'larder'. Do the Americans have a word for that?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:42 AM

To me, a "cubberd" can be one of the cabinets that line the kitchen wall or the place where coats are kept. It always has an attached adjective...i.e, "coat cupboard".   The tall thing with a glass front where the dishes you never use are kept is the "china cabinet" or, sometimes, the "breakfront".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:13 PM

Doesn't bother me, but, like cupboard, could give pause to the English as a second language element in the population.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:02 PM

How is it, Q, that sideboard doesn't bother you? :)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:44 PM

Otherwise it wouldn't rhyme with Mother Hubbard.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:42 PM

Pronounced "cubbord".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:34 PM

Cupboard- now there's one that would stump someone who is shaky in English! A board for cups? How odd!

Had to look this one up- the OED gives a three-barreled definition as number 1:
"A 'board' or table to place cups and other vessels on, a piece of furniture for the display of plate, a sideboard or buffet. I don't think the first is current in U. S. or Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:28 PM

I suspect that is another case where the Americans have retained the older meaning, which then gets reimported back here.
......................................

I wonder if there are any examples in moder times of cases where the traffic has gone the other way, and an English usage has tended to replace the American one? Precious few I would imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:11 PM

For us, a cupboard would be where you store cups (and bowls and dishes, etc.) and a closet is where you store clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:03 PM

Sometimes words get imported, but only halfway, for a particular context. So we'd still say "cupboard", where I believe Americans would say "closet" - but no one would ever talk about a gay man as "coming out of the cupboard".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM

McGrath, I listen to the BBC News and business news, and I agree that they try to get names correctly. One evening, wanting a repeat of a changing story on the business news, I listened twice, an hour apart. The broadcaster got a name wrong in the first, but corrected herself next time around. An excellent group of broadcasters!

There is so little foreign news on American news broadcasts that they have scant opportunity to go wrong!

The jag-u-ar does sound odd to me, partly because of the Spanish influence in most places I have lived. It must sound odd to some Englishmen as well since the Oxford English Dictionary puts the two-syllable pronunciation first! Or is it just the Oxbridge-Edinburgh graduates who follow the OED?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM

Odd, innit, flasher!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:32 PM

There are many words which USAians pronounce so incorrectly as to sound hilarious, because they accentuate the wrong syllable.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM

Back to the thread.
'Two times more' for 'Twice as.' As a child, when I first heard it, I wondered if it meant (original figure) x 2 = 3 times as (whatever it was. Effective, strong, etc.)

I wonder why we stopped using 'thrice.'

Just realised. 'More' instead of 'As!'

And, my browser thinks realised isn't a word.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:40 PM

And who appointed McG, whoever he may be, to be the universal arbiter of courtesy, I should like to know? And what a strange thing for you, Alice, to get so peculiarly irritable and unmannerly about. And then to flounce off like that, insisting on the last word.   I am surprised at you.

With all civil compliments - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM

I just disagree with you.

It seems like a deliberate disdain for something that could easily be said in English that is, as McG wrote, "Basic good manners should require that an attempt is made to say such names in a way that is broadly accurate."

Americans don't say Nicaragua with a Spanish accent, they say it in English without adding a "you" in the word that doesn't belong there. That's my final word on it. I'm finished.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

But Nicko-rag-you-a happens to be the English pronunciation of that name, even if not the US or Spanish one — just as Pă-riss happens to be the English pronunciation of the capital of France, though not the French one [the French for that matter, have their own name for our capital city too]. So it is not incorrect, it is conventionalised — an example of one of those which have been assimilated and anglicised. I speculated above [01.32 pm] as to why this sometimes occurs, sometimes not...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 04:48 PM

Really? Get it right? I hear the incorrect nickoRag-you-a all the time on BBC news.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 04:44 PM

Changing the pronunciation of foreign words when they come into the language is a reasonable thing to do. And the same is true when it comes to accepting that certain foreign names have an established pronunciation which has gone native - as for example Paris, or the examples Q gave.

But that is different from what happens when politicians and broadcasters impose an invented mispronunciation on the name of a foreign country or on someone from a foreign country who comes into the news.   Basic good manners should require that an attempt is made to say such names in a way that is broadly accurate.

Failure to do this is either laziness or indicates a lack of courtesy. It seems to be saying, in Bill D's words "I am not going to make those funny sounds, no matter how the natives say it!"

At least the BBC makes serious efforts to get these things right - here is a link to the BBC pronunciation unit archive

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 04:21 PM

Alus, he din't say he din't mangle it otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

Bettynh - in Staunton, Virginia, we used to say the same thing. Anyone who pronounced it 'STAUNTon' as in 'daunt' instead of the correct 'STANTon', as in 'ant', hadn't been there long.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 03:47 PM

From: artbrooks - PM
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM

WV, I think the use of "like", as in "I'll be there in, like, 20 minutes", has pretty much disappeared in the US - at least among people of my acquaintance. That was TV-talk of 20 years ago, and went along with "fer shur".

Yes, that's what I meant, AB - but it doesn't seem to have disappeared here, yet.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bettynh
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM

Is it equally annoying when a name/word has been adopted and owned by someone else? As I said earlier, the natives of BERlin live in upstate New Hampshire. There is no BerLIN, New Hampshire. They're not confused in the least, but anyone asking for directions to BerLIN, New Hampshire just labelled themselves an outsider.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:49 PM

Q, Bill D was showing how some people mispronounce Simon Bolivar.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:36 PM

Foreign pronunciations- Naow all you iggerants, les be KEErek!

Napoli, NOT Naples
Wien, NOT Vienna
Venezia, NOT Venice
Moskva, NOT Moscow (or Fr. Moscou)
Kyyiv, NOT Kiev

And don't forget the macron over the 'o' in Tokyo!

(How come Chichester isn't pronounced Chester?) OH? Different cities? How confusing!

Bill D, a fail card for you. The guy's name is See-MON Bo-LEE-var. See yer biographical references.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:26 PM

I had an art history teacher who was Japanese. He had moved to the US to get his Master's degree and was teaching in Montana. He told me that slang and figures of speech changed so quickly in Tokyo, that when he went back to visit family there, his nieces laughed at the way he spoke. His speech was considered very old fashioned, just after a few years of being away.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:22 PM

Superfluous use of the word "like" is part of the Rap, HipHop and RnB music culture of youth around the globe. Ludicrous when adults use it that way, unless they are parodying Yoof.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM

WV, I think the use of "like", as in "I'll be there in, like, 20 minutes", has pretty much disappeared in the US - at least among people of my acquaintance. That was TV-talk of 20 years ago, and went along with "fer shur".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:11 PM

I brought up this issue as part of a brief talk I gave last Saturday, during BBC Radio 3's "Free Thinking" season at The Sage Gateshead; I called the talk "If you're not American, don't Americanise - for the love of our world being multicultural", and the example I gave was the overuse of the word "like" among American then, soon after, English youth.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:06 PM

voice going up at the end of every sentence

That's what I hear when the Welsh speak. A rising inflection. Almost like everything is a question.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 02:06 PM

Um, Bonzo - one of us is a little confused, here - what exactly is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM

Condom for Johnnie, gay for queer, standing in line for queuing, voice going up at the end of every sentence - complete idiocy.......if I say "I feel a bit queer" a fellow man would immediately stand with his back to the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:46 PM

There are words which get totally assimilated, like Champagne....and there are proper names which, although we may not find it easy to reproduce 'exactly' as native speakers do, should not be subjected to gratuitous mangling: as in Sy-mon Boll-uh-ver

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM

Technically, jaguar is from the Portuguese, but originally a native language word from a tribe in South America where the wild felines live.

My point is, I am not annoyed by words being pronounced in different ways in different parts of the world. I think that is only natural that there would be regional differences in pronunciation.

What does kind of annoy me is that one class of people in one country would think they have the ONLY correct way to pronounce a word - and believe the rest of the world is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM

There is a fight in the VirginiaTam / TheSilentOne household re the Jaguar / Jag u ar issue.

He says the word jaguar is English and therefore is pronounced correctly Jag u ar.

See what these petty squabbles lead to? The break down of a happy marriage...


booo hoo

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:32 PM

The pronunciation of foreign words or place names is something of a separate question. Why do some foreign words, like his example 'paella', become anglicised in pronunciation, others not?  Only a terrible snob, for instance, would order a bottle of 'shom-pan-ye';  only an ignoramus, on the other hand, would call for a bottle of 'bew-jo-laze'.  We put 'mayo-naze' on our salad, not 'my-o-nez'.  We used to travel to 'Lions', but now it is to 'Lee-õ'; but still nobody goes to 'Paree', or 'Moskva'. or 'Yerushalayim'. We travel to Florence, not Firenze. It used to be to Leghorn, but now it is more likely to be to Livorno. Why is this?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 01:27 PM

In Spanish, words are not pronounced with "you" for the "u" sound.

There is no "you" sound in Nicaragua, but the British add it in, and the same for jaguar.