BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Airymouse
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:21 PM

I am completely unqualified to post on this subject, because for me half the mystery in British mysteries is figuring out what the characters say. But here are a few random comments: PRESENTLY "Now I am a sensible man, by and by a fool and presently a beast" Clearly "presently" does not mean "now." GOT If you prefer "got" to "gotten" how would you like "his only begot son", "moon for the misbegot" or "While I pondered weak and weary over some ... of forgot lore"? AMERICANS can't pronounce foreign names: We can't even pronounce our own names. Just listen to a newsman talk about Norfolk VA or Appalachian mountains. My theory is the news presenter(?) is afraid that the correct pronunciation of "Norfolk" will get bleeped by the censors and that he wants to pronounce "Appalachian" as if it came from Latin (with a long A as in data, status, ignoramus, caveat etc.) Accented syllables: We Americans have a terrible time with this issue. We say de spic* able for des* picable, vague* aries for va garies*, fort A* for forte and then there's the pesky bit where the stress changes with the use e.g., the fre*quent visitor fre quents* the bar or the cabbage re tails* for 50 cents a head, so that its re* tail* value is ... Finally, we in Amereicnsa are losing nice distinctions in pronunciations: The POOR man POURED a cup of coffee as he PORED over the want ads; will MERRY MARY MARRY?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:42 PM

Every one of us Yanks knows that a "till" is a cash drawer or cash box, including the drawer in a cash register.

BTW, the English "garden" is indeed called a "yard" here (it would only be a "garden" if vegetables or flowers were being cultivated).

But we also have industrial "ship yards" and "rail yards" and "brick yards."

And "the whole nine yards."

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:14 PM

Eliza, I am shocked. In England "checkout" (meaning a place at which to pay for goods) should surely be termed a "till". The adjacent serving area is a "counter".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: kendall
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:16 PM

What ever.

How is my spelling?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:08 PM

Quay is pronounced "key" according to the Oxford English Dictionary
(Ki with a mark above the i, which I haven't checked in html).

Merriam Webster's allows kwa (a as in cane) as a third choice, cay in 2nd place, Ke in first.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:38 PM

Maybe, Kendall; but it is an adjective in apposition, and you err in callling it an adverb. The fact is that, even if you fiond the second uneuphonious [fort some obscure reason of your own, 'important' is an adjective whose derived adverb is 'importantly'.

"This is a very interesting discovery," he announced importantly.

You couldn't say "He announced important", could you; because it isn't an adverb for all your saying. And if, as you would seem likely to suggest, you would substitute, "He said in an important manner", you would simply have substituted an adverbial phrase using the adjective, which would strike me as otiose use of superfluous words.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: kendall
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 04:24 PM

But, what's more important,...sounds finer to me.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:24 PM

Atlantic Monthly, 1945:

"But it is based more importantly upon the thesis that world organization for peace can work only if an authoritative agency is established, [etc.]."

Sounds fine to me.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: kendall
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:54 PM

We think it quaint that you pronounce Quay as Key.

Importantly is silly and unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM

I remember a music teacher (grade school) who taught us how to sing songs from England.
If a word starts with a vowel, put an "h" in front, and "a" is pronounced "i".
Bellamy singing "Mandalay" solo (youtube) is an example that bears out her advice.

The two languages are getting closer together; television works both ways, with British dramas and BBCNews and BBCAmerica seen over here.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM

Eliza...most Americans don't queue. They just 'get in line'. Queue is familiar to many, it's just not a common usage in 'most' places. Perhaps it is avoided becaue it sounds like 'cue' which has a couple of very different other meanings....*shrug*.. or maybe because no one wants to remember how to spell it.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:41 AM

>Let's just stop abusing the language by, for instance, making an adjective (Important) into an adverb, (Importantly).

How is that "abusing the language"? Please explain. What about nouns (default) that double as verbs (default).

(BTW, I haven't heard anybody who says "DEfense" say "DEfault." Yet.)

Many Americans have never even heard of a "queue" or of "queuing." Those of of who have are likely to think of "queueing" as the more "subservient" action. Perhaps it seems to imply to us "falling in line" rather than making (or should I say "taking"?) the tough decision to get yourself over there.

We usually "line up" or "get in/on line." Only then do we "stand" there.

To one who grew up saying "get/stand *on* line" (see an earlier post) "*in* line" sounds a little wimpy and subservient, because idiomatically when people "get in line for something" they dissolve themselves into a faceless group.

Not that any of it makes consistent sense or can be expected to. Language isn't logical. It's psychological.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 09:44 AM

Kendall:
Does anyone outside Maine use the word or phrase, "Door yard" or "Dooryard"?

Ray Bradbury (Late of L.A./born Illinois) "When elephants last in the dooryard bloomed"

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 09:19 AM

A yard is 36 inches.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 09:04 AM

I've just thought of something else, the word 'queue'. I've heard Brits using 'line' instead. I personally queue at the checkout to pay, I don't join the line. Do Americans 'queue'? Are there long 'queues' of traffic during rush-hour, or long 'lines' over there?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 09:00 AM

I find the word 'lorry' to be hopelessly outdated nowadays. It seems one must say 'truck'. No-one is a 'lorry driver', but a 'truck driver'. Kendall, any size of land around a house here in UK is 'the garden' My last one was half an acre and needed a ride-on mower to cut the lawn. Our present one is the size of a hanky, but is also 'the garden', presumably because one gardens in it! I believe Americans use the word 'yard' more than we do. A yard here is more usually a piece of hard standing where a bit of work goes on, eg car repairs or storage of outdoor stuff such as logs or piles of bricks. A yard isn't the garden.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:45 AM

Cor blimey Kendall, strike a light Guv, you must have really strong feelings on the subject - that's the longest post from you I've ever read! And I agree, language evolves, and it's hardly surprising, in view of the huge volume of US TV programmes on UK TV, that we've picked up many of your words and sayings. Hell, I even heard a kid in the street the other day declare that, "so-and-so sucks", which is an expression Brits of my generation would never use. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM

Talk about a tempest in a tea pot! Is this National Pedants day?
Does anyone outside Maine use the word or phrase, "Door yard" or "Dooryard"?
My very British wife, English, actually, has some quaint words and phrases, such as, "The back garden". Here,. a garden is a plot of land that is used for growing vegetables. We call it the lawn. Ours is 3/4 of an acre. In England, the garden is a patch of land that can be mowed with scissors!

She has her own way of saying things that amuse me, and I don't want her to "Go native". "She flounced right by me into the bathroom so I couldn't have another go at her"! That broke me up! Sometimes when I write something on the computer, I intentionally stick a "U" in color,or humor just to irritate spell check.

Anyway, Not to put too fine a point on it,American English can use a bit of class from the Mother country, but as long as we can communicate, that's what is important.

Everything evolves, even language. That's not always a good thing.

Is it true that Charles DeGaul insisted that they create a French word for television? I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth.He planted his ass in England through the war among his allies, then when the war was won, he returned to France like Caesar as if he had won the war single highhandedly.

Anyway, I say, Viva le difference. Let's just stop abusing the language by, for instance, making an adjective (Important) into an adverb, (Importantly).
TV people drive me batty by pronouncing particularly with only 4 syllables, and that fat head on Pawn Stars who still doesn't know the difference between Cavalry, and Calvary.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:17 AM

""(Once, twice, thrice a lady anyone?)""

Or in modern USAian: Once, two time, three timer lady!

Promiscuous or what?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM

A letter about transport in this morning's Times ends ~~ "WE ALREADY HAVE A SYSTEM OF UP TO 100 TRUCKS WHICH USE FAR LESS FUEL, CAN TRAVEL faster when appropriate carrying far more, and don't conflict with other traffic. They are called freight trains." ignore those caps please

They used to be called goods trains, didn't they? Did this particular grey squirrel slip in before the influence of Elizabeth Cotten via Nancy Whiskey & the Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group, or were they responsible as I suspect?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:27 PM

forgedabouwdid

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:22 PM

In NYC it's notoriously "standing *on* line." Just as you don't "bump" into things or people, you "bunk" into them.

Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 08:41 PM

Standing on the corner, watching all the girls go by....

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 08:20 PM

"Standing in line sounds more like hoping for a favour of some kind."

I would have thought it was a physical description of what you are doing without moral or psychological weight.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:04 PM

"Standing in line' somehow doesn't seem to quite equate to 'queueing'. It sound more subservient.

If you're in a queue you are waiting your turn for somethig to whic you are entited, such as service. Standing in line sounds more like hoping for a favour of some kind.

There's a kind of dignity in a decent queue.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: harmonic miner
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:14 AM

For some reason, people in Ireland havs started saying 'standing in line' instead of 'queueing'. Yet they still call it a queue intead of a line. And 'DEfault' instead of 'deFAULT'

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:26 PM

I think to a large degree the original examples and the premise of the thread are kind of bogus.

School Yard, vs Playgound? Where I grew up the school grounds were not fenced in. There was a parking area, the kids played where there were no cars parked and between the primary and elementary school buildings. The playground was a mile away in the park, next to the soft ball field.

And much as we were proud of our Imperial British heritage, we called the School Grounds, the school grounds and the playground the playgound.

Like wise, girls used to skip and they used to jump rope. There were ways to jump rope without skipping. They certainly would skip without a rope. Skipping with a rope was called skipping rope, often shortened to "skipping."

"Out of bounds" and "Off Limits" do not mean exactly the same thing. Americans are very familiar with the term "Out of Bounds" from football meaning not within the field of play. "Off Limits" is something posted on military installations meaning "authorized personnel only" Since both are used as metaphors and neither are particularly American or British aren't both fairly used?

The English speaking community is connected world wide in media and travel. The users of the language an the influencers are no longer exclusively on a couple of tiny islands. The main influencers are the purveyors of the largest media. Michael Bey, Martin Scorsese, Woody Allen, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, Peter Jackson even non English speakers like Ang Lee.

I'm for the best, most accurate word for the audience. The problem for the English is that the language is not exclusively theirs any more and because they did not do what the French did, they have lost all control.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Charmion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:57 PM

Canadian squirrels are bilingual -- grey or gray, they answer to either.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:31 PM

Grey squirrel in Canada (mostly the black phase in southern Ontario); gray squirrel across the border in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:24 PM

But, since it's about linguistics, the squirrels have changed from gray to grey since they came here, and are extremely unlikely to change back.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:11 PM

Ice Hockey, the Canadian Game, not American.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:44 PM

If the British public wants gray [sic] squirrels, the gray squirrels will proliferate.

I like red squirrels as much as the next dude [sic], but we're talking [sic] linguistic Darwinism here.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: meself
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:42 PM

"surely it should be seven times winner..."

I suspect that the "seven-time winner" usage could be justified; in fact, I suspect I could do it myself if I had a couple of hours to nose through Fowler and wrack my brains over the matter - but I don't today. Anyone who missed it the first time through care to weigh in?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM

Agreed, Q. The Americans feel it necessary to modify it with a 'field' to distinguish it from the there predominating 'ice' sort. But it is therefore, as I aver, an Americanism, superfluous in our leading daily paper

~~ the point I made in starting this thread, and have been making thruout it ~~

i.e. that there is nothing wrong with any of these usages where they belong ~ over there ~ but are grey squirrels to our red squirrels when they start to replace &/or render obsolete our own usages.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:08 PM

Hockey is the name of the sport at the Olympics; introduced 1908 but permanently added to Summer games in 1924 (FIH, founded in Paris in 1924, now(?) 127 members). Much of its formation can be credited to English "public" schools.

Ice hockey was introduced to the Olympics in 1920 and became part of the Winter program in 1924 (IIHF, founded Paris 1908 as LIHG, now 52 members).
The need to separate the games with modifiers has grown since that time, especially in those countries strongly supportive of the game on ice (Russia, U. S., Canada, etc.) where "hockey" is understood by most people to mean ice hockey.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM

I thought grounded was air force, as of someone breaking rules - like doing a victory roll before landing. Or commercial pilots if caught drinking. Or the plane itself, if iffy.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:05 AM

Reviving an old thread with a new example ~~ The Times the other day mentioned a game called "women's field hockey".

We don't have 'field hockey' in this country: we have hockey or ice-hockey. It is American usage to give priority of meaning to the latter and therefore to have to add the [to our ears] otiose modifier "field" to the real game. A Noel Coward character remarks to an American visitor who mentions "horse riding" ~ "We just say 'riding'. The horse is taken for granted." Similarly, hockey-wise, here in UK the field should be taken for granted.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 05:10 PM

U.S.
Grounded with respect to keeping kids confined is an extension of the application of the electrical term, electrically in contact with the ground (1884). "Earthed" is an older term for electrically grounded, but I haven't heard it within memory (seen in books).

Two time, seven time, etc., could be newspaper writers' coinage (always striving for emphasis and/or simplification, not always successfully); in speech twice or seven times are still commonly heard.

I think we all tend to pick up usages we hear on the TV or read in the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dazbo
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM

Do Americans use twice? I only ask as phrases such as "Seven Time winner of the Tour de France" are creeping into UK usage and really annoy me (surely it should be seven times winner...) but to say "two time winner of..." beggars belief when "twice winner of..." says it all. Mind you I'd find it odd to hear "thrice winner..." but it would make my day. (Once, twice, thrice a lady anyone?)

I'm glad it seems to be a two way street. Are some of the Britishisms appearing in the USA due to the Harry Potter books (e.g. snog) or where they all translated out in the US editions?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 01:40 PM

I don't know what to say, as I have just re-read the entire thread, and my brain is saying "uncle!"

(Is that an Americanism?)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:21 AM

"Grounded' surely not same as 'sent to room'. 'Grounded' = not allowed to go out for certain number of days, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:08 AM

Parents in UK telling their naughty offspring that they are grounded as punishment. I was sent to my room when I was small.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dave Swan
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 01:29 AM

Jeri, go to your room.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 08:07 PM

Who's on first!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

Febuary follows Janruary, and then Mach goes by really fast.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:48 PM

That old song, "Shine on, harvest moon," just doesn't sound right if you sing January, FebRuary, June or July.
But the original score read "Since April, January, June or July," avoiding the problem.
Google tells me Ruth Etting was responsible for the February in the line.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:35 PM

No ~ Febuary follows Janruary'

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:05 PM

Doesn't Febuary follow January?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 03:01 PM

Nucule- a small, seed-like fruit, a nutlet. Adj. nucular.

Doesn't grow up to be a mushroom-like cloud, though.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:52 PM

February.