A Wish for Autism

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 10:43 AM

I feel incredibly stupid. It never occurred to me that anyone would consider their child autistic unless he or she had been diagnosed by a licensed professional.
Even worse, then criticize the school system for labelling the same children.

Shaking my head in disbelief and anger that you would dare to compare your child's "symptoms" to the symptoms of children described here who in fact are autistic.

And preaching to them about the Gift of Autism.

No one here has belittled you. You have done a colossal job of belittling yourself and throwing into question every statement you have ever posted re: schools, autism, parenting, etc. Well done.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM

Result: the idiot doctor who distorted his research to cause a scare over a non-existent link between the MMR vaccine and autism and madlizzie's dangerous crackpot theory that autism is a "gift" both demolished in one afternoon.

Two nutters down, sadly still rather a lot to go.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM

Just time to post an inspirational quote from Pope Paul John 11 then

"Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it"

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:33 PM

Borchester Echo

Don't believe everything you see about Andrew Wakefield. He stood up to the stupid f***ers who insist that the MMR cannot create Autism. I have talked with Paul Shattock of Sunderland University and am satisfied that the MMR jab can create Autism.

However, the majority of children will not be affected by the MMR jab.

I talked with my doctor and various health authorities and they agreed that it was not necessary for my Autistic daughetr to have the second jab, and to this day she hasn't and won't.

This is one big F*****ng cover up from the health authorities, who need parents to make their children have the MMR.

Again would people who are not affected by Autism in their family make stupid comments when they domn't know F*** all about it.

Brain washed springs to mind as far as the health authority people are concerned.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

*Again would people who are not affected by Autism in their family make stupid comments when they domn't know F*** all about it.


Again would people who are not affected by Autism in their family, please stop making stupid comments when they don't know F*** all about it.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:08 PM

"Opinion is divided in the medical establishment on the wisdom of pursuing Wakefield – and particularly his colleagues who played a lesser role in the drama – at the GMC.

Wakefield was the lead author of the study and chief proponent of the theory that there was a link between the MMR jab, given to children around the age of 18 months and again at four years, and a form of bowel disease and autism. The paper was a collection of just eight case studies of children.

The Lancet paper conceded that the battery of medical tests to which the children were subjected had not established a link, but even the suggestion that the jab could be responsible for autism caused a furore.

The scientific establishment struggled in vain to produce evidence that would reassure the public.
Studies were commissioned and published showing that there was no major difference in the rate of autism among cohorts of children before and after the combined jab was introduced in the UK, but Wakefield stuck to his guns and claimed that others had replicated his findings.

The story took a new turn with revelations that Wakefield had received legal aid funding to carry out his study, through lawyers acting for children whose parents believed their autism was caused by the MMR jab and wanted to sue the manufacturers.
It was alleged that he had not revealed this to the Lancet, which then retracted part of the paper.

The latest Health Protection Agency figures show that uptake of MMR is 85%, which is still insufficient to ensure immunity in the community. Before the MMR scare, uptake stood at 92%."

- From today's Guardian

The GMC has additionally ruled that his methods, were not in the clinical interest of the participants as they were not going to receive therapeutic benefit from invasive tests which included spinal taps, .

In one instance described, Dr Wakefield took blood samples from children at his son's birthday party, paying them £5 each in the late 1990s and then laughed about it during a US presentation in March 1999.

The GMC panel described his 'callous disregard for the distress and pain' of the children he studied, and said he had abused his trust as a medical practitioner and brought the medical profession into disrepute.

Nevertheless Dr Wakefield is unrepentant about his research and remains convinced that some children are vulnerable to damage by the MMR vaccine. But he has remained almost a lone voice with little in the way of scientific support.

Nevertheless as Les states some parent groups have remained unconditionally supportive, convinced that the vaccine caused autism in their children

Despite the rationale of the official position some of the media presented this as Government intransigence and evidence of a cover up claiming ministers were protecting the pharmaceutical industry rather than the people.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: mg
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:21 PM

My brother with probable autism was diagnosed by my niece who is a beautician..she saw what had not been professionally diagnosed, was misdiagnosed as brain damage by some of us, and the rest in denial that someone as obviously intelligent as him couldn't somehow just act more normal, get less marginal jobs etc. Can be done. mg

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:31 PM

"Everyone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege" Part 93

. . . like citing another "autism is a gift" nutter of Sunderland Remedial Primary School over and above the academic weight of the General Medical Council. Measles can be a very serious illness. I almost died of it when I was 7.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:00 PM

"Don't believe everything you see about Andrew Wakefield. He stood up to the stupid f***ers who insist that the MMR cannot create Autism. I have talked with Paul Shattock of Sunderland University and am satisfied that the MMR jab can create Autism."


I'm with you on this one, Villan. #

Yesterday, on BBC Radio Devon they were talking about the pressure being put on parents to have Swine Flu jabs for their children. Apparently there are now leaflets telling people NOT to do this, being put through Devon letterboxes, by anonymous posters. The lady they interviewed who was against the jabs said that nowhere near enough tests had been carried out..and I have to say that the hysteria and 'selling' that has surrouned Swine Flu has been very scary.

I think Andrew Wakefield knows exactly what he's talking about...and the Government's stubborn refusal to give singular jabs, when the public has demanded them, has been absolutely prepostorous. How many children have been affected, purely because of the mania to save money?

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM

As I understand it, the problem with singular jabs given one year apart is that the child is still vulnerable to the two diseases not covered.
Here in the States, you can request and get single injections.
Wakefield admitted to some less than scientific research and at least ten of his colleagues withdrew their names from his paper's conclusions when they discovered his "fudging of the facts". It does not mean he is wrong. But no one has been able to duplicate the findings because of flawed methods.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:09 PM

Diane, most parents don't want to NOT vaccinate their chidlren, they simply don't want to give them masses of vaccines at one go. To put all that into a tiny baby at once seems total madness to me.

My son had a very adverse reaction to his first jab. It was the only one he had.

Many parents even went to the trouble of travelling abroad to get their children vaccinated in single doses....

The Government is, in my opinion, hugely at fault here...and if you believe the the Corporate Medical World has yours, or your child's interest at heart, well....consider The Constant Gardener...and just think how much money has been made from Swine Flu....everywhere you go there's 'antiseptic wash' and 'Flu Packs' on sale in your chemist...with everything you need to protect you as much as possible from er...something that never happened....

If you create panic, and already have invented the solution, then you stand to make an absolute fortune!   You can also sell your product to Governments under the 'save loadsa lovely money!' slogan by pouring doses of mixed up vaccines into babies in one go....."Think of the money you'll save!"   

Pah!!

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:17 PM

Diane, if you do not believe the autistic mind has not produced some of the most stunning scientific discoveries, works of art, books, songs, poets etc...then I suggest you take it up with Dr. Temple Grandin, who has Aspergers herself and who knows full well what she's talking about when she says what I have said.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:48 PM

The dangers of self-diagnosis:

"While there are some conditions which are much like autism, there are other conditions, such as having a very high IQ or simply being late in talking, which often include characteristics listed on checklists for autism. These are open invitations to false diagnoses.

We would see the dangers immediately if people who wear glasses were included on "the blindness spectrum" or people with harmless moles were included on "the cancer spectrum."

Blindness, cancer and autism are all too serious — indeed, catastrophic — to use loose definitions that fudge the difference between accurate and inaccurate diagnoses."


Thomas Sowell, Crusades Versus Caution, Part II

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:54 PM

Undiagnosing autism

An autistic man engages in a little de-bunking.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:27 PM

What Dr. Temple Grandin actually said in a recorded interview

"and [with] a little bit of the trait, you get einstein.
There is a book called Asperger's and Self Esteem and its about famous scientists and musicians that probably were aspergers"

Note - 'probably'

In addition Temple Grandin (who does have some very original views about animal 'savants') was herself was quoting something she had read - a book by Norm Ledgin an American writer of historical fiction and journalist
He has also he won top awards including the National Safety Council Trustees' Award, "Flame of Life," 1963; Award of Honor, Association of Safety Council Executives, 1974; and Distinguished Service to Safety Award, National Safety Council, 1974. He also served the national organization as chairman of its Driver Improvement Program ("defensive driving"), 1967-68.

In fact Lizzie you are quoting someone quoting someone else - hardly the 'independent' thinking 'out of the box' you claim.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:23 PM

I am not in agreement with all Liz's views on the subject. However, I do find some of you very abusive. The circle she speaks of does indeed refer to ASD--something I HAVE been diagnosed with and also another member of my family. There are way too many self-declared experts here, Dave.

As for my 'bullshit' remark to you, you have a history of following her around and also of getting really nasty with her at times. I do NOT fuckin' care what your history is. In fact, there are a half dozen people here who have done exactly as you do.

No two autistics are alike. There are both high and low functioning. The remark on this thread I appreciate most is the one in which a parent (and I'm a parent of an ASD child, too--and YES, diagnosed) said that what he worries most about is preparing his child for this world when he and his missus have moved on--read died. There is NOTHING on this earth that scares me as much as that scenario, and being that death is likely not all that far away for me, I worry indeed about my child, because there are too many misunderstanding assholes around. Please don't be one of them.

Liz is aware that autism is not a gift. If I'd had the chance to have a 'normal' child, do you really think I'd not have wanted that, even if only to spare my child the pain she's endured at the hands of people who would NEVER dare to say in front of me shit they've said to her? A few made the mistake of teasing her in front of her sister. She received a few days school suspension. She was always a good martial artist.

That stuff aside, the Daves here ought to take a seriously good look at themselves. I'd prefer to message my remarks with the OP, and I do.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:39 PM

I think there are some people who think a person should be chased out because they can't stop attacking her. Get real. The problem is simply that you don't have the the brains and/or self control to walk away.

No, I don't think autism is a gift, but one can hate the condition and still appreciate the people who have it.

I think the world would be better off without it, if only because it provides the small-minded idiots that get their rocks off attacking others with more victims. But as with any adverse situation, people who are autistic have occasionally done some truly amazing things to adapt. I can appreciate that, even if I'd wish they never had to work so hard.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: GUEST,Rose
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:14 PM

I've read through this thread a few times now, and decided that I had to comment.

I am currently awaiting a diagnosis of an Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I was referred a few years ago, but as I am an adult (mid-twenties), it has taken an extremely long time for even the chance to be diagnosed.

Throughout my life, I have known that my mind doesn't work in the same way as other peoples'. I had to teach myself how to recognise emotions, jokes, how to speak to people I didn't know (and sometimes, even those I did), and this made me feel like an "outsider". I went to mainstream school, where I was severely bullied, because I didn't have the skills to defend myself.

As I got older, I found myself trying to escape the world, turning away from the people and things I loved, locking myself away in my room, my own little world, the only place I felt safe. I hated being forced to leave my cocoon, and would lash out because I felt threatened, my "fight or flight" mechanism going into overdrive. I even felt that life was not worth living, and tried to escape it.

I am slowly becoming more able to face the outside world (I'm now a student), but all the time, I am terrified inside, no matter how confident I appear. I allow very few people into my room in halls, and when, during Fresher's Week, my room was invaded without warning by several girls from other flats, who were friends with one of my flatmates, I ended up close to tears because I was so scared.

The first semester of University was one of the most frightening experiences of my life. Too many strange people. Too noisy. Too many crowds. I couldn't cope. I came close to dropping out because of the fear. Thankfully, my tutors are supportive, I have a fantastic boyfriend and I'm now receiving counselling. It's not much, but until I have an official diagnosis, it seems like the best thing I can do.

I love music, and that is often the first thing I turn to if I need an escape but am unable to get back to my sanctuary. I've always got my iPod on me, even if I know I won't be able to listen to it.

It actually upset me reading some of the comments on this thread. Certain people seem to think they know best if they work with children on the autistic spectrum. I can understand the parents of autistic children, but as has been mentioned, we are not all the same.

I have often felt that my life would be so much easier if I wasn't the way I am. I wouldn't feel so useless when I misinterpret things. I wouldn't get looked at as though I am stupid when I pluck up the courage to ask for clarification on something that everyone else understood ages ago.

I adore drama and acting, because I see it as my only chance to be someone completely different, who can stand up to people, who is accepted, who is "normal". No matter who I'm playing, I can be the person I wish I could be in real life, the person I can never see me as.

Thank you for reading this.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 08:25 PM

"Thank you for reading this."

Thank you for sharing

I hope that as a 'guest' THIS will not be deleted

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:15 AM

Rose
Thank you for sharing that.
Your comments and the things you do/have expeienced, I see in my daughter, but she is only 14.
My very best wishes to you for the future.
Stay strong.
Les

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:53 AM

Dear Rose,

I send you much love, and all good wishes for the future. I know how hard it is to go 'out there' into the world for some people and I admire the inner strength it's taken you to do just that. You are an amazing person, who, as most of us will see from your message above, has the ability to touch many others with your inspirational words.

Never, ever feel you are stupid, for you are anything but. There is nothing wrong with 'a different way of needing to learn', nor of wanting a different way of life, and I can assure you that it is those who still haven't yet worked this one out who are the stupid ones.

You learn to fly free and fly strong, in the knowledge that you are important and that you matter very much to many people. Learn to be proud of who you are and to understand that few people who are not on the autism circle would not be able to live their lives in the way you do, because it takes a mountain of courage to sometimes do the simplest of things, and there are very few people who have that kind of courage inside them. You do.

My own daughter's life is also in your message there, as she feels exactly as you do, my Sweetheart.

You are very far from alone, even though you so often feel that you are.

I have the utmost respect and admiration for you, and again, I send you much love.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:29 AM

"if you have anything half way decent to add to this thread, about autism"

I think the link that Ruth made to the well written piece by Jonathan Mitchell (a writer who suffers from a mild autism spectrum disorder) is an excellent 'dissection' of the post-mortem 'diagnosis' of autism made about people like Eistein and Jefferson.

His conclusion about Norm Ledgin's book is that this kind speculation is not helpful.

"It will only lower the self-esteem of those whose handicaps might prevent them from achieving what they want, let alone what the above-named individuals were able to do.
It also places undue expectations on those who are expected to measure up.
Worst of all, it provides fodder for the special educators, special education attorneys, ABA therapists etc. to legitimize their profits and to encourage the false hope and tears for toasted snow that so many parents of these children have."


He believes sincerely that people who use historical figures like Einstein and Thomas Jefferson and Isaac Newton to claim autism is something great and should not be cured are attempting to 'present an argument for persons who take offense at the thought of eradicating autism to mitigate suffering'

He is 'pro cure' and observes the 'strawman argument' put forward by some people

".....that cure and prevention are in reality code words for abortion and one offensive cartoon on the web page autistics.org implies this line of thinking.
The only reason that genetic research is done on autism is the intent of deliberately finding a way of aborting autistic fetuses."

But replies,

"Of course it would never occur to them that someone might want to find a way to delete or insert certain genes to avoid the effects of a mutation that would cause the child to have grave harm throughout their life"

Neurodiversity: Just Say No

Certainly the overwhelming opinions posted on this thread, including those of parents of autistic children who have actually been diagnosed with the condition, would seem to agree with his wish to eradicate autism.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:45 AM

Just in case all that got lost by the previous long winded post here is a link to the article that Ruth referred to in a previous post

"Undiagnosing Gates, Jefferson and Einstein" - An article by Jonathan Mitchell

and a link to his blog
"We don't need no stinkin' neurodiversity"

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

We don't allow personal attacks. At least not until they overwhelm a thread and it gets closed. I'm betting you don't want to be the reason for that.

I'm going to try to moderate this thread and I hope that other Mods will too.
PLEASE try to confine your remarks to the thread subject and not individuals.
Thank you

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:43 AM

This looks a lot better.

Regarding the personal attacks, can everyone just ignore them please, now and going forward, and they'll eventually stop?

As me old mam used to say, "If you don't pick at it, it'll heal up)! :-)

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:06 AM

Again - sounds good to me. The definition of such attacks may be variable but I will go along with whatever the moderators decide.

For the record. I do not believe autism is a gift nor do I believe that many of the gifted people who had autisic spectrum disorders were gifed because of their condition. I would say they achieved what they did in spite of it and very good luck to them. I find it particularly heartless that a child with a cruel and incurable condition should be shown these amazing people as role models when it is known that tiny minority of all people, let alone those who are diferently abled, achieve any measure of greatness at all.

I am all for positive encouragement and with such I like to believe that my children have all grown to achieve their own brand of greatness. That they have always done their best without harming anyone else on the way. That they always aspire to better things yet are not dissapointed if falling slightly short of the mark.

My own personal goal is to learn something new every day and, so far, I have done it. One of these days the truth I learn will be the one that makes all the difference. Maybe it will be the genetic key to this issue. Who knows :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:30 AM

While everyone wants to thump on each other, please remember one thing. It is about our kids not about you. The question is this, what have you or I done to help our kids with this terrible illness. Anger is the single common factor that I see and rightfully so ... Now take the anger and try to do something. I had been on the board of directors for one of the NFL greats who started a farm, hospital wing, and a host of research doctors. Now what I am trying to do is fund raising for specific families that are in deep financial need because of it. I never took any money for helping and making websites , so I usually end up getting signed footballs and Jersey's ect in the mail as gifts.

I auctioned most of them off on ebay and raised over 5K for a specific family that needed it ... I not saying this to talk about what I did. I am saying this so that everyone can know that even us little folks can do something anything for a family that really could use some help. sometimes it is nothing more than, go shopping, I can watch the child, you need a break ... little things to help make a world of difference in a life

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:42 AM

Hey - not just the kids. olddude, remember that the condition affects people throughout their lives. I applaud your efforts but that level of commitment to something by which I am not directly affected is not for me, I'm afraid. If anyone wants to think the worse of me for that then fair enough but I feel I am already spread quite thin (wish that was a literal!) by countless other commitments. Keep up the good work but remember that everyone has their own unique set of priorities - None any higher or lower than our own.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:48 AM

Dave
I can completely respect what you said my friend. There are so many worthy causes out there that affect the lives of people. Autism is mine but I know lots of folks doing such for cancer, homeless and the list goes on an on ... one has to do what they can for a host of problems we are faced with in this life all of which are important.

dan

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:31 PM

This is the most AMAZING video of a young woman talking about her early childhood, as an autistic child. In it she explains how she was face-blind, meaning-deaf, and how everyone looked the same, interchangeable faces.

The interviewer talks about Helen Keller, and asks her if she had a 'Helen Keller Moment' when she was suddenly able to understand that people were trying to get in contact with her...and she did! OH, she DID! She had many of them! And when she tried out tinted lenses she realised that people's heads were actually joined to their bodies! She sees in pictures I think, so being taught words meant nothing, but when actions were put to the words she began to understand..

It's absolutely wonderful and so worth watching...

Donna is also a talented artist and musican..and listen to how she explains her art, what it feels like! It's just as Ron Davies talks about...in the Gift of Dyslexia book..

"When music comes out through my fingers it feels a natural communication..."

Donna Williams and her Helen Keller Moments....Youtube


Donna will teach you all so very much about how it feels to be autistic.

Absolutely bloody marvellous woman!



I found her whilst watching 'Autism The Musical' and 'The Miracle Project' but I need to find more links for that, better ones..but Donna has just blown me away and put a huge smile on my face..and I hope she does for all of you too.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:42 PM

Lizzie:

Thanks to the NPR link for the audio for Temple Grandin's appearance. Sure hope they provide it. I taped it on my mp3 player but it's a bit fuzzy since I don't have good reception at work.

Meanwhile, as for the Stephen Wiltshire link, it sure seems to bear out Temple Grandin's description of 'thinking in pictures'.

The great inventor and engineer Nikola Tesla described his inventive process as one of visualizing his creations. He may have been a candidate for high functioning autist.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:46 PM

Doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid, but as I said earlier I have too many other commitments to get involved in something that doesn't really concern me. I'm sure many will find it inspirational in some way though. Enjoy it.

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM

I have just been re-reading Rose's moving post an have a genuine question to put to those who really know about these things. Please don't speculate, guess or waffle - Answers from peopel who know what they are talking about only, please.

I am very close to two people who went though what seems to be exactly the same things. Bullied at school, terrified of college - one came home after the first morning, it was so bad! Suicidal tendancies. Difficulties relating to other people. Yet the idea of autism never entered into the equation. Depression, yes. Stress, yes. Severe self esteem issues, yes.

What is it the dividing line between Rose's potential autism and the people who I know. It seems very fine and I am interested in what the distinction is, who makes it, why and whether it makes any difference.

And Rose - Trust me on this because I know - It will get better even though you will take some knocks in the process. Don't worry about those - we all suffer them, it is not just you! And make sure you come back and let us know if it was autism or some other issue that affects you.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM

Dave
that is an outstanding question and one that even the specialist are still grasping at.   I deal with severe cases in children and I am not an expert by any means just someone who cares and does what he can to help. The autism spectrum disorder has been expanded in recent years. Where the line is drawn I don't know. ADD, Panic Attack disorders, eating disorders can also be associated with autism.. sure but they are disorders in themselves. In children there are a number of early warnings signs for severe autism .. lack of eye contact, repetition, hearing issues (identifying sounds etc)... In high level autism (Aspergers) some of the signs most common are

Signs and symptoms of Asperger's syndrome include:

    * Engaging in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is listening or trying to change the subject
    * Displaying unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures
    * Showing an intense obsession with one or two specific, narrow subjects, such as baseball statistics, train schedules, weather or snakes
    * Appearing not to understand, empathize with or be sensitive to others' feelings
    * Having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor
    * Speaking in a voice that is monotonous, rigid or unusually fast
    * Moving clumsily, with poor coordination
    * Having an odd posture or a rigid gait

(taken from the aspergers site on the web)

One thing that I have notice that seems to also be present across all of the autism spectrum is associated seizures) only a doctor with some brain scans and study can tell if it is a form of autism or one of the other problems that need help with.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 07:47 AM

So, basicaly, it is a very complex procedure to diagnose autism. I wonder then if the apparant rise in the condition is really a rise or whether the diagnosis has become easier? Or, heaven forbid, some people are claiming autistic spectrum disorders, particularly adults with aspergers syndrome, becuase they have self disgnosed on the internet!

Whatever it happens to be it can only be a good thing that the symptoms are being spotted, particularly in children, and then they can be treated accordingly.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:08 AM

"That the number of new autism diagnoses is dramatically increasing is generally accepted and not a point of debate. The historical rate of autism is about 4 per 10,000 and the more recent estimates are in the range of 15-20 per 10,000 (30-60 per 10,000 for all pervasive developmental disorders of which autism is one type)" (Rutter 2005)


There are two basic hypotheses about what is causing this rise

1 That the rise in incidence is mostly or completely an artifact of increased surveillance and broadening of the definition of autism.

2 That the actual incidence of autism is rising due to an environmental cause


"In the 1990's the diagnosis of autism was changed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD) – the new name reflecting the changing concept of autism to include a broader spectrum of symptoms, including much more subtle manifestations.
In particular a diagnostic entity known as Aspergers syndrome, which is essentially a subtle manifestation of autism features, was classified as part of ASD.

Any time you broaden a category the number of individuals that fit into that category is likely to increase.

In addition to the broadening of the diagnosis, the social and medical network supporting ASD dramatically increased.
There has been increased efforts at surveillance – scouring the community for hidden cases of autism.
Further, parents have become much more accepting of the diagnosis, which may partly be due to the fact that is some states the label with facilitate access to special services.
And clinicians have become more knowledgeable of ASD so are better able to make the diagnosis, even in subtle cases."

All the research, while supporting the hypothesis that the rise in autism diagnoses is not due to a true increase in the incidence but rather is due to a broadening of the definition and increased surveillance, does not rule out a small genuine increase in the true incidence.
A small real increase can be hiding in the data.
There is no evidence upon which we can conclude, however, that true autism rates are increasing."

Extract from a paper Published by Steven Novella under Neuroscience/Mental Health, Public Health, Vaccines in Science-based Medicine

This evidence of course does not support the "autism epidemic" theory so loved by various organizations selling various (expensive) forms of treatment, from chelating to 'Creation Elixer'
If there is a "stable incidence" of autism over recent decades, then this alone is powerful evidence against the vaccine hypothesis – and in fact removes the primary piece of evidence for a vaccine-autism connection.

Just as a true 'epidemic increase' would have called out for an environmental factor causing autism, the lack of any increase argues strongly against any environment factor – especially when this is combined with the copious evidence for multiple genetic factors as the ultimate cause(s) of ASD.

hope this helps Dave

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:56 AM

This may also be of interest......

The causes of autistic spectrum disorders (ASD) can be described in two ways:
Primary ASD (also known as idiopathic ASD): no underlying medical condition can be found to explain the symptoms of ASD.
Secondary ASD: there is an underlying medical condition that is thought to be responsible, or partially responsible, for the symptoms of ASD.
90% of cases of ASD are primary. .

Leaving aside the 10% of secondary ASD researchers have studied four possible factors in the cause (or causes) of primary ASD:

Genetic factors: certain genetic mutations may make a child more likely to develop an ASD.

Environmental factors: during pregnancy, a child may be exposed to certain environmental factors that could increase the risk of developing an ASD.

Psychological factors: people with ASD may think in certain ways that contribute towards their symptoms.

Neurological factors: specific problems with the development of the brain and nervous system could contribute towards the symptoms of ASD.


The possible psychological factors behind ASD, are based around a concept known as 'Theory of Mind' (TOM).

"The theory of mind (ToM) impairment describes a difficulty someone would have with perspective taking.
This is also sometimes referred to as 'mind-blindness'" Wiki

This means that individuals with a ToM impairment would have a hard time seeing things from any other perspective than their own.*

Individuals who experience a theory of mind deficit have difficulty determining the intentions of others, lack understanding of how their behaviour affects others.

Additionally, one of the most important milestones in theory of mind development is gaining the ability to attribute 'false belief'
This means an inability to recognize that others can have beliefs about the world that are wrong. - for example theories found on the internet or elsewhere are believed unconditionally without analysis.

The results of research using false-belief tasks have been fairly consistent: most normally-developing children are unable to pass the tasks until around age four.
(Notably, while most children, including those with Down's syndrome, are able to pass this "test", in one study, 80% of children diagnosed with autism were unable to do so.)

However, In addition to autism, ToM deficits have also been observed in schizophrenics.

*Moore, S. (2002). Asperger Syndrome and the Elementary School Experience. Shawnee Mission, KS: Autism Asperger Publishing Company

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 10:18 AM

Environmental cause is one that I am thinking makes the most sense to me. Only because of this reason. Every child that I know that was tested was severely sensitive to heavy metals, many parents are doing chelation a controversial treatment to remove heavy metals from the child. However, the kids that did get the treatment improved quite a bit. It is not recommended and like I said is still very controversial but the parents I know reported better learning and behavior skills afterwords (certainly not cured by any means) It is also very very expensive 40K and not covered by any insurance and is dangerous unless done by a well trained DAN doc.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 10:24 AM

and DAN is not me, a DAN doc is one certified in autism and listed with the autism foundations

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:17 AM

What is a DAN doctor?

"Defeat Autism Now (DAN!) is a project of the Autism Research Institute, founded in the 1960s by Dr. Bernard Rimland. DAN doctors are trained in the "DAN! Protocol," an approach to autism treatment which starts with the idea that autism is a biomedical disorder. Specifically, DAN! doctors feel that autism is a disorder caused by a combination of lowered immune response, external toxins from vaccines and other sources, and problems caused by certain foods."

I'm very unhappy with chelation Dan - apart from the appalling financial cost lack of any there are no published peer reviews and studies and there IS a real medical cost

Some parents of autistic children have, in the absence of a medical cure for their child's condition, very understandably turned to (often extremely expensive) alternative medicine and put their children at greater risk by avoiding crucial vaccinations or even causing direct injury with chelation.

"Real chelation therapy which removes heavy metals from the body) is used medically, though rarely, because there is such a thing as real heavy metal contamination that is dangerous.
It usually happens occupationally to people who work with heavy elements and are involved in accidents.
Medical chelation takes years and is, at best, only partially successful; and carries plenty risk of its own. Kidney damage is among the most common side effects.

Chelation therapy in popular 'alternative' medicine, however, brings only the risk and no possible benefit to the recipient.

Brian Dunning, a computer scientist, has made a study of rationally examining pseudoscientific claims describing himself as a 'Skeptologist'

He writes -

"So how did we get to a point where wrongly informed parents are turning to chelation to treat their autistic children? It's not all that surprising.
Many of the indications of autism first become apparent in children at approximately the same age as vaccinations are given. It naturally follows that some people will thus draw an (invalid) causal relationship.
Because they happened about the same time, one must have caused the other.
This is the same logic flaw that leads Oprah guests to proclaim their cancer was cured by some alternative therapy. Of those lucky few individuals whose cancer spontaneously went into remission, many were probably taking some random alternative therapy at the time; and because the remission occurred about the same time as the therapy, they assumed a causal relationship, when in fact none exists"

No parent wants to see anything bad happen to their child. When it does, it's natural to seek some outside cause, someone or something to blame, something that can be attacked and fought back.
Popular media has spread the notion that mercury from vaccination causes autism, and this makes a perfect scapegoat.
Something to blame, something to fight, some way to protect the child.
An easy answer.
A clear answer.
A chance.
Something more tangible than the doctor's vague explanation of the complex causes of autism, and its tragic incurability. It's the perfect opiate for the tormented parent."

From Mercury, Autism, and Chelation: A Recipe for Risk *

Abubakar Tariq Nadama, a 5-year-old autistic child in Pennsylvania was treated by chelation therapy in 2005 which, his parents claim, resulted in his death
He was being treated with EDTA, which is approved by the FDA for use only after blood tests confirm acute heavy-metal poisoning.
The child's blood tests did not reveal any such poisoning.

A study in 2007 by Williams, Hersh, Allard, and Sears published in Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders found no significant difference in the levels of mercury found in hair samples between autistic children and their non-autistic siblings. Siblings were used for this study to eliminate other environmental variables as factors.

* A further look at the relationship between the preservative thimerosal found in some vaccines, the substance ethyl mercury which is naturally expelled from the body and methylmercury which will cause physiological damage but which is NOT present in thimerosal
NB Denmark and Sweden eliminated thimerosal in the early 1990s without any observable reduction in the incidence of autism.

Dunning observes that

"It doesn't help that this misinformation is spread by celebrity activists like Robert Kennedy Jr., whose only medical experience comes from carefully making lines of cocaine with a razor blade.
Kennedy wrote an article for Rolling Stone magazine in 2005 charging that the government knows that vaccines cause autism and is actively covering it up"

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: olddude
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:42 AM

Emma
I don't disagree with you and I don't recommend it. I just had a number of parents tell me it helped a lot. Now with the illness so complex help is a pretty generic term. Was the improvement from Chelation or simply just an improvement. You are right there are no studies to say it works and it can be dangerous. I don't recommend it

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Amergin
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 12:46 PM

Ok, first of all I suggest we all eat some shrooms and jump in the "magic circle".

Now that part is done with, I tried hard to read this thread....but after each post of the thread's originator going on and on about all the amazing gifts autistic kids and adults have, and how everyone should hope to be autistic....and each post being 100 pages long (slight exaggeration there). I found I couldn't.

I do say that ok, she has her heart in the right place, but she does not seem to know what she is talking about. As stated before autism is different from person to person.

My experience is a young cousin of mine. Me and his mother (my aunt) have always been really close, more like brother and sister partly due to the closeness in our own ages. I adore this kid, he is very loving and friendly, though yes, he can get a bit annoying some times. For years he had a hard time struggling through his autism. The school system did not do anything for him, mainly because they were lazy to make accommodations for him. Finally, her family had to move to another town. There they got all the support they needed in the public school system. In the years they have lived in Sandpoint, he has blossomed. Yes, he is still a high functioning autistic, but he has friends and everyone likes him. All in a public school system.

Recently, he has taken to the creative process as an outlet to reach beyond his own limitations. It has been working well for him. He likes art, and he has been painting and drawing. His high school art teacher chose two of his paintings for an art show. I am very proud of him.

However, his creativity and his ability to express it, has no bearing on his autism. Especially, not in a family full of artists, musicians, singers, writers, artisans, and other such slaves of the creative muses. By the originator's reckoning, my whole family would be autistic, all members of this "magic circle", because we could not find ways to create without it. No, we would all be stuck in front of the TV and drinking in the latest episode of American Idol or CSI Miami, instead of doing something constructive.

By her reckoning, the friends I have made in the artist community would all be hiding in their own minds, with no need of a proper education, because they are artists, they must be autistic. No once again, her brush is tainted by rosiness, and not the grittiness the real world shows to most people.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 01:00 PM

Sad but cautionary story - an American MD and father of two autistic children talks about his experiences with 'alternative medicine'


"I consider myself to be a very scientific person. While growing up, I was skeptical and inquiring and naturally gravitated to the sciences. My first brushes with pseudoscience and quackery in medical school left me convinced that "it could never happen to me." I was sure that my background and training would keep me from making the same mistake as "those people." I was wrong.

A year or so after my son was diagnosed with autism, with no hope for cure in sight, I was feeling desperate for anything that might help him. My wife attended a conference about "biological treatments for autism." She came back extremely excited, having heard story after story about "hopeless" cases of autism "cured" by a variety of simple treatments.
I was initially skeptical, but my desperation soon got the better of me.
We started out with the simple therapies—vitamins and minerals—but soon moved on to the "hard stuff": the gluten- and casein-free diet, secretin, and chelation. Some of it seemed to work—for a while—and that just spurred us to try the next therapy on the horizon.
I was "hooked" on hope, which is more addictive and dangerous than any "street" drug."

Dr Laidler goes on to describe the expensive regimes he and his wife placed their faith in and concludes

"Looking back on my experiences with "alternate" autism therapies, they seem almost unreal, like Alice's adventures in Wonderland. Utter nonsense treated like scientific data, people nodding in sage agreement with blatant contradictions, and theories made out of thin air and unrelated facts—and all of it happening happening right here and now, not in some book.
Real people are being deceived and hurt, and there won't be a happy ending unless enough of us get together and write one.

My personal journey through the looking glass has ended. I stepped into "alternative" medicine up to my neck and waded out again, poorer but wiser.
I now realize that the thing the "alternative" practitioners are really selling is hope—usually false hope—and hope is a very seductive thing to those who have lost it.
It is really not surprising that people will buy it even when their better judgment tells them not to do so.

I suspect that the majority of the people who promote "unconventional" or "alternative" treatments for autism truly believe in what they sell.
They deserve pity rather than scorn. Most of them will never realize what a disservice they provide to the very people they are trying to help. It is not my intent to make them "see the light." It is the autistic children (and adults), their parents, relatives and friends that I am trying to reach with this Web site, in the hope that they won't have to go through what my family has experienced. It is to them that I dedicate my efforts."

Autism Watch Your Scientific Guide to Autism

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM

God, what a depressing story the 'scientific' one is...

Here is something a little different...that brings Hope right back into the mainframe...

The Miracle Project

Autistic children "doing things that are really considered 'not doable' for children with autism...."

The Miracle Project on Youtube

"It's about all the things our kids CAN do.." "This Movie has been called a love story, and that's how I like to think of it.."

Autism The Musical

The producer of the film talking about how she joined her son's world until he was ready to merge into hers...and it was her son who led her start The Miracle Project.

Tricia Regan - talking about her son, her inspiration.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 03:15 PM

Tricia again.....

"There's all kinds of myths about what autistic children can do. I plan to shatter those myths..."

Autism The Musical - Part 5

There are other clips on that page, but I can't get them to work on my screen. I hope they work on yours...

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 07:01 AM

Very useful indeed, Emma and olddude. I can tick off my 'learnt something today' box and give it a gold star for being both interesting and informative. I think that it is just this sort of information that will help those having to face autism. It is facts and education like this that help to dispel fears and remove predujudices.

Good call early in your post, Amerigin but you forgot to include inerminable links to inspiring projects. The thing I learned earlier in the thread is that I can add inspirational youtube videos to my list of things to avoid. I am not saying they are bad, I am sure they give great joy to a lot of people. They are just not my cup of tea, like jazz, opera and formula 1 racing.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 07:54 AM

On 21st of January I accepted the request to publish this on MY Facebook page

"children with disabilities do not have a disease; children with disabilities are not looking for a cure but ACCEPTANCE........93% of people won't copy and paste this, WILL YOU be one of the 7% that does............... and make this your status for at least an hour."

as I deeply believe in accepting all people irrespective of colour creed or disability.

I have friends who are physically disabled including one who suffers from that 'invisible', and often misunderstood too, disability that is deafness

The National Autistic Society defines autism as "a lifelong developmental disability" so it goes without saying that my desire for acceptance extends to all with this condition too


But lets look at hope - preferably without needing another capital letter amongst so many!

I have a sincere hope that autism, together with MS, Cystic Fibrosis etc may eventually be eradicated.
While no cure is on the immediate horizon I heartily approve of anything that enables people with any disability to reach their full potential and have as a fulfilling life as possible.

This includes anything as 'prosaic' as ensuring universal access for people who use wheelchairs, to the technology that enables my blind friend to use his computer to communicate with the world and the work that a friends daughter is doing in bringing drama and laughter to children with severe learning difficulties.


What offends me is false hope!

The expensive, considered by many experts to be blatant 'quackery' promises of a 'cure' to parents who, like Dr Laidler, are prepared to do and pay anything to help a much loved child.

I have looked at 'The miracle Project' and am pleased that it's doing the kind of work that my friends daughter is achieving in the UK, undertaking drama therapy for children with learning disabilities including autism, and skilled caring teachers, like Mrs Duck, are including in their educational programmes

However I also perceive the advertising that is part of the same 'miracle'

"Diane Isaacs, Wyatt's Mom & Co-Founder of The Miracle Projects, is available for telephone consultation regarding nutritional and fitness aspects for special needs children.
$180/hr"

The Miracle Project Level 1, 4 Day Intensive Training--------------------------------$1200.00

You see I find this sort of thing aimed at vulnerable people very 'depressing' too.

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Emma B
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 10:14 AM

"God, what a depressing story the 'scientific' one is..."

I make no apology for bringing some element of 'science' to the roseate glow of pseudoscience permeating some of the claims in this thread - including this one

"Dyslexia is a gift, Emma"
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Date: 26 Jan 10 - 04:58 PM

nor of quoting some skeptical views of unsubstantiated claims of 'cure' and 'healing' advertised widely in some of the sites like Autism Today.com which seem to exist solely to promote (and sell) the 'autism industry'


To quote Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

"If you're only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything. You become a crotchety misanthrope convinced that nonsense is ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) Since major discoveries at the borderlines of science are rare, experience will tend to confirm your grumpiness. But every now and then a new idea turns out to be on the mark, valid and wonderful. If you're too resolutely and uncompromisingly skeptical, you're going to miss (or resent) the transforming discoveries in science, and either way you will be obstructing understanding and progress. Mere skepticism is not enough.

At the same time, science requires the most vigorous and uncompromising skepticism, because the vast majority of ideas are simply wrong, and the only way to winnow the wheat from the chaff is by critical experiment and analysis.

If you're open to the point of gullibility and have not a microgram of skeptical sense to you, then you cannot distinguish the promising ideas from the worthless ones.

Uncritically accepting every proffered notion, idea, and hypothesis is tantamount to knowing nothing. Ideas contradict one another; only through skeptical scrutiny can we decide among them. Some ideas really are better than others.

The judicious mix of these two modes of thought is central to the success of science. Good scientists do both."

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Tig
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:24 AM

As someone closely associated with several adults who show autistic tendancies but have never been diagnosed, as well as some who have, one thing I CAN say is that they are all different. Some manage to cope well in the outside world, others have to have a lot of help for all of their lives - as do 'normal' people. At least it is now being recognised instead of being swept under the carpet/being sent to the asylum.

One thing that has come out of this thread is the love, care and hope of all those involved. I hope those reading it who didn't know anything about it before now understand a bit better. Rose, you were extremely brave and taught us a lot.

New ideas, medications and treatments are being brought out everyday. You never know - one day they may find the golden apple which REALLY helps everyone with the syndrome. Until then we must manage with what is available.

So let's let this thread go where we started it...

"My wish for 2010 is that people will understand autism is not a disease; people with autism are not looking for a cure but for ACCEPTANCE"

Subject: RE: A Wish for Autism
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:39 AM

Amen and 200