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BS: How the Bible altered how we speak

mauvepink 17 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Jan 11 - 08:42 PM
MGM·Lion 18 Jan 11 - 12:32 AM
Slag 18 Jan 11 - 03:28 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Jan 11 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Jan 11 - 10:11 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM
Charmion 18 Jan 11 - 01:32 PM
Bill D 18 Jan 11 - 01:46 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jan 11 - 01:53 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 11 - 05:08 PM
Ed T 18 Jan 11 - 05:41 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM
Slag 18 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 06:24 PM
Van 18 Jan 11 - 06:25 PM
Ed T 18 Jan 11 - 07:18 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 11 - 07:46 PM
Kent Davis 18 Jan 11 - 09:18 PM
Ed T 18 Jan 11 - 10:40 PM
Slag 18 Jan 11 - 11:49 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 11 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Patsy 19 Jan 11 - 04:40 AM
Ed T 19 Jan 11 - 10:30 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 11 - 10:51 AM
Bill D 19 Jan 11 - 11:11 AM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Jan 11 - 12:26 PM
Uncle_DaveO 19 Jan 11 - 01:10 PM
Ed T 19 Jan 11 - 01:59 PM
Ed T 19 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 11 - 02:26 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 11 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 19 Jan 11 - 02:43 PM
Ed T 19 Jan 11 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 19 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM
Don Firth 19 Jan 11 - 04:16 PM
Joe Offer 19 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM
Ed T 19 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM
Don Firth 19 Jan 11 - 06:38 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 19 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM
Slag 19 Jan 11 - 08:39 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM
Kent Davis 19 Jan 11 - 10:07 PM
Slag 19 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 05:19 PM
Slag 20 Jan 11 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Iconoclast 101 20 Jan 11 - 08:20 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jan 11 - 08:32 PM
Bill D 20 Jan 11 - 08:53 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 21 Jan 11 - 12:17 AM
Stringsinger 21 Jan 11 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,999 21 Jan 11 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,jeff 21 Jan 11 - 06:48 PM
Ed T 21 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM
Stringsinger 22 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM
Ed T 23 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

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Subject: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM

I just happened upon a rather interesting piece on the BBC website again

King James Bible: How it changed the way we speak

This thread is not intended for those who do or do not believe in the Bible. What it does show is how it influences even the most atheistic people who, often unknowingly, quote pieces of the Bible almost every day.

What's your favourite piece of scripture from the King James? Do you have a favourite phrase or saying that heralds from the Bible?

One it would seem I use a great deal is "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" Luke 6:31, but there are many more too. "Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings..." Psalms 8:2 and Matthew 21:16

Here are some King James version Bible proverbs to get you started

Hope you enjoy

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

I always guess either the Bible or Shakespeare if I don't know the origin of some old saying. Makes me right over 90% of the time, I'd suppose.

The problem with old King James is that while the text is beautiful and poetic, it is not always faithful. Some of the modern, more accurate translations are often more prosaic, and less inspiring from their lack of beauty.

As literature go with KJV.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 11 - 08:42 PM

I say "sufficient unto the day" so frequently that my missus gets annoyed. Gawd knows what version that comes from. I give not a hoot. What I would say is that you can't really "not believe" in the Bible. It's there for the taking or leaving and there's no doubt that a good deal of it can enlighten us as to the misdeeds of those who inhabited past times. One must unashamedly cherry pick, however. Jesus wasn't all that bad, a good man of his times as long as you take with a pinch of salt some of the claims attributed to him. Unless he was really a committee, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 12:32 AM

The Authorised Version translation is not always as literal as the report above suggested ~~ there is often a bit of extra poetic bit added by the translators, italicised to show that the translators wish to come clean and admit to having departed from or embellished the original.

An example is in Psalm 137: If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning...

The original Hebrew just says "... let my right hand forget"; but isn't that "her cunning" an inspired addition! Wonder what forgotten genius thought up those two perfectly clinching extra words?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 03:28 AM

You are getting what worked well as a translation ca 1611. Poetic? Yes but then much of the Bible is poetry. The KJV is or at least has been the most quoted book in English literature and Wm. Shakespeare the second most quoted and the work Shakespeare himself quoted the most was, well, you guessed it! the Bible!

With a very few notable exceptions the KJV is a very accurate translation and most modern printings take pains to note what the actual Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek text is. Yes, italicized words in the KJV are interpolated from the meaning of the original languages but do not exist in fact. They are there for English grammar's sake or for clarity of understanding. Where the word "Lord" or "God" is all in caps it stands for the tetragrammaton, the four letter Hebrew for the un-utterable name of God, YHWH. If you are a student of the Bible, the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible is a great aid and it includes a complete Hebrew and Greek Dictionary of all the original text words used and the pronunciation key is accurate to boot!

One tradition has it the Mr. Shakespeare was himself one of the otherwise anonymous translators of the KJV and that he left his signature of a sort in the work. In 1611, the year of publication Shakespeare was 46 years old. In Psalms 46, the 46th word in from the beginning is "shake" and the 46th word from the end is "spear". coincidence? Possibly.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:55 AM

i,ve mostly used KJV since i became a christian decades ago.a few years ago i did some elementary koine greek study and it seemed to me that the KJV seemed to follow quite closely word order from the gk,which in that text places words/phrases out of order[when translated word for word].
am i right and has this contributed to the poetic feel,anybody?.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:11 AM

just read the blue link which seems to suggest what i thought i see!


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:54 AM

I was actually referring to the KJV of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament to Christians) which comes from Hebrew/Aramaic via Greek. For instance, where KJV says, "Thou shalt not kill", the Hebrew is properly translated, "murder".

I cannot speak to the accuracy of the Christian scriptures from the Greek, a language I have not studied at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:32 PM

"My heart is indicting of a good matter ... My tongue is the pen of a ready writer."

One of the psalms, somewhere in the 80s.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:46 PM

I was always partial to Proverbs 13:3

and to Romans 14... particularly 14:14.

and to the concept behind Jesus throwing the money-lenders out of the Temple.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:50 PM

There have been three (count 'em!) three great overarching historical influences on the way we speak.

1. the Bible

2. Shakespeare

3. Bob Dylan

Nice goin', Bob. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:53 PM

And Jesus found out what happens when you attack the bankers.
Nowadays, the banks are the temples of most of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

Dead right, Q.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:08 PM

Bob Dylan my arse. Who talks like Bob Dylan? He's certainly influenced the way a lot of people play the harmonica. In a most unfortunate way. Nobody's going to be talking about Bob Dylan in a hundred years' time. Charlatan.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:41 PM

""Who talks like Bob Dylan?""


And, who understands him when he talks, including Bob Dylan himself.

Lol


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 05:54 PM

Steve Shaw, you've just confirmed my longstanding suspicion that it's a wonder you can even feed yourself. You've got a lot of nerve. It's because of people like you that Eden is burning. You're the kind who doesn't know what any of it is worth. Your profession's your religion, your sin is your lifelessness. Your money doesn't talk, it swears. Obscenity, but who really cares? I saw you standin' next to me, your head was exploding with useless and pointless knowledge. While the rest of us keep on keepin' on, you knit a bald wing for Jack the Ripper who sits at the head of the Chamber of Commerce and sit in your room...your tomb...with a fistful of tacks. While the wise among us make love, you're expecting rain. It felt out of place, Bob's foot in your face, but you should've stayed where your money was green. You're not busy being born, you're busy dying.

Oh, and you too, Ed.   ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:05 PM

Dylan or the Devil, talk about thread drift!
Yes John on our coast, the word in Hebrew is indeed murder. Thou shalt not commit murder. Each point of the Mosaic (River-born!) Law has the subject matter for libraries to expand upon and they have. What a rich source. David, as the Psalms record, meditated upon the Laws of GOD both day and night. In them he found life, his own and the life of the nation. The Scripture states that David was a man after GOD's own heart!

I have a copy of the Septuagint which is the Alexanderian Greek translation of the Bible and it is very interesting to see what the Seventy-two understood the Word to mean in terms of the Greek language. The Pentateuch is a very scholarly translation and was the first stage. It is almost certain that the remainder was not completed by the same people as the scholarship becomes almost non-existent in parts but all in all it is an educational read. Yes for their time the KJV translators did an excellent job.

King James did not himself have that much interest in the project. It was done to meet the demands of the citizenry to have a translation which they could understand. James's leanings were more to the French Catholocism, his mother being Queen Mary of Scots. His story and the history surrounding the time is very interesting. It was the time of Shakespeare and John Knox and the ideas and burgeoning intellectualism are fascinating to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:24 PM

"The Scripture states that David was a man after GOD's own heart!"

That's sort of equivalent to saying in today's popular vernacular that David was a way cool dude. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Van
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 06:25 PM

Slag

King James was most certainly not a catholic.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:18 PM

...""you should've stayed where your money was green.""

Was that in a Dylan song, by chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:37 PM

Yeah, it was in one called "Where Are You Tonight? (Journey Through Dark Heat)".

It's the last song on the album "Street Legal" from 1979.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 07:46 PM

Dylan? Bloody pop singer. Money for old rope. If Woody were alive today and listening to LH rabbiting on about Dylan he'd be turning in his grave. Woody? Now there was a true god of sound... There's more wisdom in his song-book than there is in any Bible, no matter which king wrote it.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Kent Davis
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 09:18 PM

Here are a few interesting metaphors which originate in the gospel of Matthew:

-straight (strait) and narrow (Matthew 7:14)
"Straight and narrow" gets about four times as many hits on Google as "strait and narrow", but the "way to life" is, in the original metaphor, "strait" (not wide), rather than "straight" (not curved).

- talent (Matthew 25:14-29)
This metaphor is dead but, originally, a talent was a unit of measurement, typically used for silver or gold. In the parable of the talents, different people received different measures of precious metal, and were expected to use them for the master. The metaphoric meaning has now nearly driven the literal meaning of "talent" out of the language.

- washing one's hands of something (Matthew 27:4)
Pilate attempted to deflect blame for Jesus's crucifixion by literally washing his hands publicly as symbol of his "disapproval" of Jesus's crucifixion even as he hypocritically ordered that it be done. The modern metaphor doesn't have the suggestion of hypocrisy.

- potter's field (Matthew 27:7)
Judas returned the "blood money" he got for betraying Jesus, but the money was considered too contaminated to put back into the Temple treasury. It was used to buy an actual potter's field, which was then used as a public graveyard for the indigent.   These graveyards are still called "potter's fields".

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 10:40 PM

Was "" Dylan's early accent an imitation of Guthrie's plaintive Okie drawl""?

Talkin' Bob Dylan


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Slag
Date: 18 Jan 11 - 11:49 PM

No, King James I (James VI of the Scots throne I believe) was raised Catholic and educated in France and elsewhere but to sit on the throne of England at that time was a heady experience and to keep that head he couldn't stay Catholic. He was then a nominal Protestant. He was also a very wise man, a good leader, excellent at economics and very diplomatic. The people knew where his true religious feelings were and many sympathized with him. As I said, they were very interesting times!

LH, I have often thought of writing about the Gospel according to Dylan. He has many interesting parallels to some biblical accounts. But if you are looking for salvation, I would look beyond Dylan.

Talents were perhaps the largest coins of precioius metal ever made. They were cast as a rectangle with handles at the top for carrying and were about 60 pounds. The Jewish talent ran about 70 pounds. It was portable wealth, but just bearly. A gold talent at today's standard exchange would be well in excess of a million dollars. It is interesting in the parable of the talents that what use they were put is not stated. Usury among the Jews was forbidden by law but was practiced against the gentiles (although this too, was actually forbidden). The servants (slaves "doulos")were expected to get gain or interest on the outlay for their master. Christians often misinterpreted (equivocated or amphibole? not sure which)talent to mean personal gifts or innate abilities from God to win souls into the Kingdom. It worked for all intents and puposes and so often the error was not corrected if known.

Steve, I would take issue with you concerning the wisdom of Mr. Dylan and King James did not "write" the Bible if you had been following closely (Van and SS, both).


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:02 AM

King James did not "write" the Bible if you had been following closely

You're American, aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:40 AM

I've used Biblical sayings in everyday speech like describing a good person as a good Samaritan and 'turning the other cheek' etc. even wanting an 'eye for an eye' (metaphorically speaking) in anger. As with Shakespeare it has some really good sayings but possibly only remembered by a generation that had regular studies of the Bible in their religious education to refer to.

From the 60's onwards I would say America has had more influence on how we speak today, the younger generation are more likely to be well travelled than previous ones so are more likely to be influenced by the friends they meet and the teen flicks that they watch.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:30 AM

Bob Dylan once wrote, "trust yourself". What did the Bible have to say about that topic? If it were interpreted as the same, the RC Pope would have been out of luck:)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:51 AM

That was very profound of him to write that. Gosh, I bow before him in awe.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 11:11 AM

Well, I suspect Popeye the Sailorman was influenced by the Bible to create his singularly profound:

"I yam what I yam!"


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM

Popeye's influence on our times can hardly be overrated, Bill. ;-) He was an unsung zen master.

Slag, you said: "if you are looking for salvation, I would look beyond Dylan"

I do, my good sir! I definitely do look beyond Dylan! Dylan is just a stepping stone on the way, a road sign as it were, but not the final one.

Steve and Ed, I think you may be taking my remarks about Mr Dylan just a tad too seriously.... ;-)

Yes, his early performing accent was definitely derived from Woody Guthrie, and he drew more than a little inspiration from Ramblin' Jack Elliot too, as well as from a whole host of old Blues singers like Blind Willie McTell, Robert Johnson, etc. It wasn't until about '64 or '65 that Bob started really finding his own unique sound, and it came to fruition in the 3 electric albums in '65 and '66, by which time he'd pretty much left his seminal influences like Guthrie and Ramblin' Jack behind.

I have a CD here of Woody Guthrie's best known songs. It's interesting, good to listen to, but I think Bob improved on Woody's style in his early records, because he added more bite and energy to it. The Guthrie stuff sounds a bit subdued in comparison.

Now, Ramblin' Jack...it would be hard to improve on Ramblin' Jack in his prime. He was a very good acoustic performer.

The reason I mentioned Bob Dylan as one of the 3 great influences on how we speak was:

1. a joke

2. a half-serious joke nonetheless, because one very frequently sees or hears Dylan quoted by politicians, entertainment people, newspaper articles, etc....therefore he is, in fact, a rather big cultural influence on our times.

and

3. because I enjoy talking about Mr Dylan regardless. ;-)

If this causes you annoyance, all I can suggest is...umm...I don't know, maybe kick your guitar stand over or something. But don't kick the dog! That would be bad karma.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 12:26 PM

Unusual to see so favourable a view expressed of James I.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 01:10 PM


- talent (Matthew 25:14-29)
This metaphor is dead but, originally, a talent was a unit of measurement, typically used for silver or gold. In the parable of the talents, different people received different measures of precious metal, and were expected to use them for the master. The metaphoric meaning has now nearly driven the literal meaning of "talent" out of the language.


A talent was the amount of gold or silver that one man could carry.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 01:59 PM

"" I bow before him in awe.""

A true sight to see;)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM

I have never heard anyone local speaking like they do in the Bible...at least anyone that I did not seem to be not under the influence of a substance.

But, maybe they talk that way in Boston? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:26 PM

You're a yank too, aren't you, Ed. Thank God for British humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:28 PM

I have a CD here of Woody Guthrie's best known songs. It's interesting, good to listen to, but I think Bob improved on Woody's style in his early records, because he added more bite and energy to it. The Guthrie stuff sounds a bit subdued in comparison.

Well, I've read some tosh in my time but this is something else. Ha bloody ha.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:43 PM

"No, King James I (James VI of the Scots throne I believe) was raised Catholic and educated in France"

Simply not true. James was the son of Mary Stuart (the Catholic queen of Protestant Scotland) so was of course born and baptised as a Catholic but his mother was thrown of the Scottish throne when he was a baby and she fled to England. James was then raised in Scotland as a Protestant by a throng of Calivinists.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:52 PM

No, not from US of A.
Canada


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM

"his mother was thrown of the Scottish throne when he was a baby and she fled to England."

After a fair period of time as a prisoner that is! Before anyone else points that out :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 03:35 PM

"tosh" Ay-ay-ay, Steve! That's a harsh word. If you had said "balderdash" or "rubbish" or "bloody nonsense", I'd have been mildly upset....but TOSH!!!!!! I am devastated!

I shall crawl off into a corner now and weep while I plan my revenge... ;-)

I also think Bob's harmonica playing is markedly superior to Woody's! Furthermore, he has a more interesting set of headgear (referring to his hats).


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 04:16 PM

". . . I think Bob improved on Woody's style. . . ."

Dylan imitated. Woody WAS!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM

Well, maybe it's not directly from the Bible, but is Matthew 16: 2-3 the source of "Red sky at night, sailor's delight; Red sky at morning, sailors take warning"?

It has always been my understanding that the Authorized (King James) Version and the works of Shakespeare were instrumental in the transition from Middle English to Modern English. I also understand that Luther's translation of the Bible was central in the transition from Middle German to Modern German.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM

Dylan influences


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:26 PM

Don, Guthrie WAS! Dylan IS! ;-)

That's an excellent article, Ed. What Dylan did in adapting and building on the existing musical traditions all around him was no different than what a great many others did, except in 2 respects...

It was better done than most.

And it was far more successful, that being the major reason it has drawn so much criticism from various quarters. Unsuccessful writers and performers don't draw much notice or criticism from anyone, but the very best draw a veritable storm of both positive and negative reactions from their fans and their detractors. As for fans, hell hath no fury like a fan disappointed in his expectations.... ("Judas!")


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:38 PM

Not a good trade.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 07:01 PM

It's a matter of personal taste, that's all.

Now, Joan Baez, for example...I'd trade Joan Baez for all the cities in California.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM

S'cuse me...what I meant to say was: I wouldn't trade Joan Baez for all the cities in California.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:28 PM

I once heard someone complain about a modern Bible translation replacing the King James in a preachers readings because it was changing the words that Jesus spoke and the way he spoke them. I don't know if he really thought that Jesus spoke antiquated English but I understood his point!


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Slag
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:39 PM

Well, there goes my real estate scheme!

Yup I am an American. I forgot you Brit "read" for an education and "write", meaning, uh just what do you mean?

I quote Dylan quite a bit myself, LH. Salute!

re James I, I have a similar view of Prince and then, King John. He was an able adminstrator while his brother was out stirring up trouble, getting himself captured and ransomed and generally being a bad king. John kept the Island running and in pretty good shape. To bad he was a Norman. That seems to be his greatest crime.

I will have to go back and read that interesting part of history surrounding James I. They little grey cells may not be what they used to be. See the "How old are we?" thread. Ugh!


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 09:06 PM

I think that King John has been greatly slandered by a long series of books and movies about the mythic figure Robin Hood and the grandiose King Richard the Lionheart, a man who seems to have been addicted to fighting bloody battles in far-off places.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:07 PM

Biblical allusions make great book titles too:

East of Eden by John Steinbeck
- Genesis 4:16
   
Absalom, Absalom! By William Faulkner
- II Samuel 19:4 (not a direct quote.)

Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein
- Exodus 2:22

Lord of the Flies by William Golding
- II Kings 1:1-6,16, also Luke 11:15-19
("Lord of the Flies" is the translation of the name "Baalzebub".)

The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway
- Ecclesiastes 1:5

Kent


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Slag
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 10:19 PM

Also Spake Zarathustra, oops! Wrong religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

**pedant alert**

"Also Sprach Zarathustra", is the German title,where also is pronounced 'al-zo' and is usually translated as 'Thus'

**end pedant alert**


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:19 PM

Sandy McLean
My sister in Dundee took my niece to see "The Passion of the Christ", where Jesus and the disciples actually spoke in Aramaic. They were both convulsed with the giggles, because apparently the Aramaic sounded just like Klingon.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Slag
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:03 PM

uh...yeah, Bill D, since this thread was about translations in a way, I thought I'd translate. Was that a fox pass?


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,Iconoclast 101
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:20 PM

A footnote...
I recall reading an account a few years ago, possibly marking some significant anniversary of the KJ version, which stated that a great many of the proverbial sayings attributed to the personages portrayed therein were in fact invented by the translators: "scapegoat", "brother's keeper", "salt of the earth", and a dozen or so others, all of which have passed into the common parlance as having the weight of revelation, "Word of God" etc.
So, were Kihg Jas' paid scribes coeval with John'n'Job'n'Jeremiah? "Inspired?" "Talkin' in tongues?" (Walla Walla Bing-Bang!?)
And let us not forget the great man John Wycliffe, and the first great "English Heresy", that of translating said book into the vulgar tongue so ordinary people might read and think for themselves...
And I live in Australia, so indubitably I have none of the usual Angleo or Amerarcane pre judices (Hmmm...!?}
A small greeting to Little Hawk (whomsoever you are) for being the prolific source of lively discussion (and reasoned argument?) on this loverly Mudcat Forum.
Thank You! (and thank you linesmen and ballboys...)
Do any of yez know "The Ballad of Joking Jesus"?


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:32 PM

I haven't heard it yet, inconoclast. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:53 PM

Slag.. it was, perhaps, a foe paw... ;>) ... we confirmed pedants just hunger for complete, precise translations (to show off our erudition?...*shrug*)


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:17 AM

LOL Eliza!
There is an old story that Gaelic is the language of Heaven and also of Adam and Eve. When the construction of the Tower Of Babel was underway the Lord confounded those involved by having them speak in tongues that the others could not understand, but the faithful were allowed to maintain their Gaelic. Therefore it stands to reason that Gaelic was Christ's first language. It follows that if one hopes to enter Heaven they should study and learn Gaelic here on Earth because they will need it in the afterlife!


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:06 PM

MP, "do unto others" has been around a lot longer than the bible. It was originally
"don't do unto others that which you wouldn't want done to you" and is found in many other religions.

Remember that the bible is nothing but a rehash of other religions and the King James Version was written to appease the warring factions of religious belief at the time.
The King James is a johnny-come-lately.

One of the things that bible has succeeded in doing in altering the speech patterns is fostering a slavish adoration for ignorance and inconsistencies. In short, maybe the bible has altered our speech by making us more unintelligible.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:09 PM

King James I of England was King James VI of Scotland. He diddled young men.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: GUEST,jeff
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:48 PM

My favorite verse is from the Old Testament. Joel 2:25 "I will restore to you the years the locust has eaten."

Pretty uplifting and hopeful in what is generally perceived as a book full of vengeance, wrath and condemnation.


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:05 PM

English is the national language of Jamaica. Try and figure that one out from some words?

Jamacian Speak words


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 06:09 PM

Actually Jamaica-speak makes more sense then latinate English.

"Wha'appen? (What's up?) - greeting used among friends."
Sounds dated.
The new way to say it is "Wha'gwan?" (What's goin' on?)

I'll tell you this about Jamaicans. The schools down there produce educated people.
Many of them much brighter than American counterparts.

Yah, mon!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: How the Bible altered how we speak
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

Seen


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